Am I the only one who thinks that Great Weapon Fighter sounds stupid?
I'm not crazy about the class naming scheme they've got so far but I'm also by no means offended by it.
I'm pretty sure they come straight from the books, which is cool.
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syfylisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
I'm not crazy about the class naming scheme they've got so far but I'm also by no means offended by it.
I'm pretty sure they come straight from the books, which is cool.
It's just funny how cyptic try to say game is great from something that is normal in any other rpg game. Part from foundry i didn't see anything unique in this game.
iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
I don't think it's too bad. I mean, in the context of D&D since edition 3 it's not really that unrealistic. The flashing red lines on the moves might be a bit much realistically- but visually I can understand why they're there to enhance how the animations look as well as make your targeting range clearly outlined.
In pvp- you'll know clearly what you're hitting/what's hitting you, I think that's a good thing as some games can make it pretty unclear in that regard. Same with bosses- over exaggerated attacks give you a chance to dodge it; you have a much better chance of seeing with all the wizard spells and healing effects going off a big glowing meat cleaver spinning at you than a dull grey knife that blends in with the shadows/stone ground.
Due to the need for fast reaction times in an mmo compared to turn based- I think people might be more annoyed with a realistic version than they think.
That said- I don't really like how it looks, but, I don't really like 2 handers to begin with- more of a caster or stealthy type. Personally- I like the rogue's animations for the most part (though bloodbath looks too jolty imo- the others kinda get a Nightcrawler like vanish which I think looks neat).
I think it would be nice to get some ability customization for looks- change small things like the colour of the slashes for example- available from achievements/purchase/zen, etc...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's just funny how cyptic try to say game is great from something that is normal in any other rpg game. Part from foundry i didn't see anything unique in this game.
Can you imagine a game dev saying 'ya this game is gonna be mediocre'? They have to sell their product/be positive about it no matter what.
Honestly- mmorpgs have had very tiny steps when it comes to uniqueness- most 'changes' that are happening even now are just numbers, for example stat numbers in pvp (GW2 made it so it's all the same), amount of grinding you have to do to get something (fewer and fewer tokens each year are needed as we move away from the monumental grinds of EQ and other older games).
What has truly been innovative? Probably the only real, big change of the past five years has been public quests/rifts/events or whatever else they're being called becoming a bigger part of games.
Frankly, I think a lot of people overstate the value of innovation- when the reality is most games those same people play and enjoy aren't much different from what they've already liked and enjoyed... and most games those same people hate and bash are the ones that are trying to do something unique and new.
Personally- I'd like to see an emersive world with more to it than grinding mobs for gear, I want to see combat that's more than just get rid of their hp before they get rid of yours- and I want to see the spirit of D&D come through; flashy moves, dragons, loot and wizards being weak at level 2 and OP at level 20 are just a small part of the IP, what really matters is that you're part of a world where stories are happening.
DDO quests were great in that while in them, every dungeon had its own story and you weren't there to just grind hordes of monsters- you were there to finish a mission of some sort... but, that didn't really translate to the city well and thus, to the mmo part of the game, it was like a small co-op game with a central hub.
I wonder sometimes if all this negative feedback is one of the causes of all the delays on a release date. It seems they are torn between pleasing the old school d&d players and your modern gametard. So far I think the melee classes may be a bit cartoony. But give them praise for taking initiative to try something different in an Mmorpg.
I wonder sometimes if all this negative feedback is one of the causes of all the delays on a release date. It seems they are torn between pleasing the old school d&d players and your modern gametard. So far I think the melee classes may be a bit cartoony. But give them praise for taking initiative to try something different in an Mmorpg.
No it seems that they are pretty much ignoring the veteran players; according to the PCgamer article the daily powers are a mess and there are considerable bugs and content concerns.....that is probably why the game is delayed.
Hey better that then getting what we got with the last two cryptic launches.
The witcher was on the right track as far as interface went, nothing flashy just simple realistic melee death. If want fancy go with a caster, if you want old fashion skull crushing decapitation and hamstinging go with melee characters. I was a little disappointed in the greatweapon fighters combat animation it reminded me of that old kirk Cameron game horde.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2013
I, personally, enjoyed the video and articles on the GWF. I'm not personally keep on flashies for non-mage-types but I'm not opposed to them either, especially when I haven't been able to experience it myself in gameplay. I'll reserve further opinions until such a time.
No I never said there was one true way, I'm voicing what I and many older D&D players thinks looks stupid...and that isn't going to go away. Right now we have a tiny forum community, if it grows you are going to get a flood of people saying what I'm saying. The same thing happened over at the STO forums pre-beta and it really caught cryptic off guard when the throngs of hard core Trekkies showed up. Comparatively I'm being kind about it....the Neverwinter Nights and PnP old guard won't be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8JOAWgQtDU It must be magic!!!!!!! :rolleyes: I have seen with my own eyes things you would think was impossible (someone standing beside you and vanishing and showing up several yards away ) that doesn't make it supernatural.
LOL! reading that article you can tell the person who wrote it knows jack all about Neverwinter Nights or D&D so he applied a common FPS term; I know some of the guys that worked on the third and fourth edition and they will tell you they cringe when people attach words like teleport to the trickster rogue.
It hurts just handing martial classes innate magic because they don't have it in the pen and paper game, that is like giving a two headed troll the ability cast magic missile...sure it would be fun to some folks, but it has nothing to do with D&D.
Finally, as far as the "realism nonsense" goes....a lot of well known IP's turned MMO's have tanked because they gave the finger to the veteran fans to "fun" it up, you can have fun and still respect the IP; if this game loses the support of veteran D&D players and the Neverwinter Nights community you will come back here in two years and see about as many people as you see now, which would be disastrous.
They want to make sure they get the bunny hopping defibrillator animation just right first.
No it seems that they are pretty much ignoring the veteran players; according to the PCgamer article the daily powers are a mess and there are considerable bugs and content concerns.....that is probably why the game is delayed.
Hey better that then getting what we got with the last two cryptic launches.
So now we're playing the "veteran card?" Voice of the "original" people and that jazz?
Two Words:
Dwarf Wizard.
On D&D, AD&D and 2nd edition AD&D this would have been an impossibility, and any person who tried to ply one in ANY "sanctioned" game (not using pre-gen characters MADE for that special tourney normally impossible thing) would be laughed out of the tourney or turned in for trying to cheat the rules. It got so notable, the RPGA actually made a game with network tournament players paying REAL money to AUCTION OFF a Dwarf Wizard from an epic past BEFORE they lost the ability to cast wizard magic. And all of this was approved by TSR before it was green-lit. Ask Robert Weise. Ask Dan Donnelly.
Now you say Dwarf wizard, you get a few shrugs at best or some person teases you for not making a min-max munchkin uber build.
Before third edition, fighters rarely spun.
Now, they have spun for THIRTEEN years.
And if you knock the "gamers who do/did third edition" as "softcore" with their spreadsheets squeezing EVERY LAST BIT of build to "be something acceptable compared to wizards at epic l 30 cap," then you are going to anger that hardcore crowd too.
And I should know having made wizards, AND fighters AND Monks AND Rangers, etc doing the power as well as the role-play build.
So stop assuming any of you speak exclusively for the "original hardcore community" or "classic community" (as I've only done this for 34+ years and even I meet people who can sit me down, call me, "sonny" and teach me a thing about Chainmail style and the original D&D.)
The game has a spinning move, and if the gamers can't accept 3rd and 4th ed doing this to a point that is spells their definition of game DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM (as we politely teased them in DDO too), then they won't play. We'll wish to have their stuff, and strangely, few refuse to leave, give up their stuff, and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and whine while playing 16 hours a day. I wonder if anybody acts like that still? [NSFW] I hope you all are warned not to become this. WE WILL mock you if you make videos like this. I PAID CASH MONEY FOR MY D&D BOXED SETS! CASH MONEY!
If they can learn it's a different game in MMO and in 3rd-4th ed, then they will play. I've heard all this BS before with Star Trek with TOS, TNG, DS9,STV, ST: E etc. And I'm a Trekkie. Not a Trekker in when it got popular BS. Back when if you went to conventions, it was never popular and only the Ren Fair people got teased more.
Somehow the game survived even if the "purists" of "pick your genres" weren't happy.
So all you Coke, Diet Coke, New Coke, Coke Zero, Pepsi, Diet Pepsi, Pepsi/Coke AM, Crystal Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, Diet Dr. Pepper. Regular and Diet Cherry/Vanilla/Lemon/lime EVERY brand, etc. you are all welcome with your variants of D&D here. Just understand like your drink, other people's tastes may vary and the menu is being served by somebody else.
Now NOBODY says they are the authority gamer spokesperson, 'cause we all "gots" our views, including multiple versions of hardcore/classic gamers.
After having a couple of days to mull this over, I have decided that it is not going to be something I will allow to negatively affect my attempt to enjoy the game.
Having said that I want to respond to the following:
I wonder sometimes if all this negative feedback is one of the causes of all the delays on a release date. It seems they are torn between pleasing the old school d&d players and your modern gametard.
This sort of stabs to the heart of what I feel an MMO based on an existing IP should be. Dating back to my Star Wars Galaxies days, I have felt that if a developer is going to base an MMO on a pre-existing IP, then first and foremost, the clearly established principles that define that IP should be at the core of the MMO. The mechanics of the MMO need to be wrapped around the IP. So far the only MMO whose developers have put forth an effort to do this is Lord of the Rings Online. Whether you like the game or not, when it was developed, no MMO mechanic went into it that did not somehow tie to something from Tolkien's writing. And while they have taken some creative license in parts of the story, there is precedence for it that can also be found in Tolkien's writing. For example, the strange monsters that dwell in the depths of Moria that have no direct reference in the books. But a line spoken by Gandalf opens the door for their existance. He was asked what the creature in the water was (the one that attacked the party at the entrance to Moria). He said that he didn't know, but that there were older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world. That right there allowed the creation of new and dangerous monsters that the player would not encounter anywhere else. After all, you can't get much deeper than Moria
Anyway. By catering to what the existing IP establishes first and foremost, and keeping it as a priority in all forward-going development, then at the very least the game will attract and hold the attention of the fans of the IP. Because the game will give them the closest thing they can get to actually visit the world or universe of their favorite fiction. Obviously, it needs to also appeal to the wider MMO audience as well. And every attempt needs to be made to satisfy them... But not at the expense of the IP and the core audience which is its fans. I would rather see a hundred players who don't really care about the IP quit than a single player that loves the IP. And since the average MMO development process follows the minimal effort approach to post-launch development, it really won't matter.
If someone created a MMO based on Robert Jordan's The Wheel of time, and they follow it to the letter in terms of establishing the rules of the world, if someone who has never read the books complains that they don't like the idea of losing their male channeling character to tainted madness and death, and if they don't take that out, they will quit, I would be the first one to yell, "There's the door, don't let it hit you in the butt on the way out!" If the risks of channeling as a male are clearly established, and that player does not run kicking and screaming into the arms of the Red Ajah and beg to be gentled, then they deserve whatever happens...
Anyway... I guess my question to any developer is "What is the point of securing the license to create a game based on a recognizable IP if the effort is not going to be there to make said game recognizable as being representative of that IP, except on just the surface?"
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
I wonder if anybody acts like that still? [NSFW] I hope you all are warned not to become this. WE WILL mock you if you make videos like this.
You do know that the guy in that YouTube video is just acting, right. This is a character that he does on YouTube. If you are curious about what he's like out of character, watch this
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
"The hearts of men are easily corrupted."
Money is what matters in most cases. Love, respect, and loyalty to a franchise isn't hard to find, but the skill to recreate it almost always comes with a price. It might be paying for the schooling for game design or developing a game, but in the end, very few people will do things out of the kindness and purity of their hearts, with no thought of reward. Fanfics, fanart, UGC ...... Sure there are faithful and dedicated people out there. To influence not only the players, but the IP itself with a huge project such as this, it boils down to "who's paying?" in the gaming market, and the majority (whether D&D vets or not) is going to have priority over what direction the game takes.
I'm half, I'm a fanboi purist. I hide my pointy elbows well.
I want to be a fanboi of purist hater zealots everywhere...maybe I can do a kickstarter?
This is the last I'm going to say about it...there are directions that Cryptic is going that a lot of vets aren't going to follow...that not saying doom that is not playing chicken little, it's just that a demographic is going to feel like they are being given the finger and will not buy in.
Doesn't mean the game will fail...it just won't be D&D for a lot of folks the same way DDO isn't D&D for a lot of folks.
I have a lot of the Neverwinter Community ask me if I'm going to bring Shadowhaven to Neverwinter, I skipped NWN 2 for what I perceived as game breaking issues; right now I can't say yes, six months ago I was certain I would...not that it would be missed or that anyone would give a flying fudge one way or the other, I just think that Neverwinter is very very different from NWN and something tells me the communities just aren't going to cross over well.
"The hearts of men are easily corrupted."
Money is what matters in most cases. Love, respect, and loyalty to a franchise isn't hard to find, but the skill to recreate it almost always comes with a price. It might be paying for the schooling for game design or developing a game, but in the end, very few people will do things out of the kindness and purity of their hearts, with no thought of reward. Fanfics, fanart, UGC ...... Sure there are faithful and dedicated people out there. To influence not only the players, but the IP itself with a huge project such as this, it boils down to "who's paying?" in the gaming market, and the majority (whether D&D vets or not) is going to have priority over what direction the game takes.
Very well said...but isn't it sad that we live in a world where who's paying wins over pure artistic integrity? Even sadder that the average gamer could care less eh?
Edit: (posted reply during your previous post ninjaed mine, removed my post and also dropping the issue.)
Sorry truth I spoke for myself and the folks in my D&D group I said that before...we think it sucks and belive from what we have seen that if it brings in capital Cryptic will give us Panda's and motorcycles and you being a duly appointed rep of Cryptic will no doubt justify it.
I'm out gunned here so I'll just let it drop at that... I don't want to end up like Mo and have everything I post deleted.
EDIT: And for your information I (along with many others ) did boycott 3rd ed and after 4th ed wizards came back to several of us who beta tested 1st and 2nd ed and asked us why...we are now in a SIG that Wotc steers for 5th ed...so there must have been some issues huh?
"The hearts of men are easily corrupted."
Money is what matters in most cases. Love, respect, and loyalty to a franchise isn't hard to find, but the skill to recreate it almost always comes with a price. It might be paying for the schooling for game design or developing a game, but in the end, very few people will do things out of the kindness and purity of their hearts, with no thought of reward. Fanfics, fanart, UGC ...... Sure there are faithful and dedicated people out there.
Indeed there are. Some of them express more artistic skills with their imaginative renditions based upon an existing IP in question than some people hired onto actual development teams for games based on that IP. Yet the developers always tend to hire people who may or may not have a real love for the IP, and they pass over those who have a genuing love for it AND the talent to depict it CORRECTLY...
Maybe the person does not have a college degree in digital art. Maybe they haven't had several years of experience working in game development with at least one successfully released title under their belt. If I looked at a page of "qualified" artists and found ten pages of artists with talent and love for the IP, I would pick the best among them and send them an email. But the corporate-run MMO industry does not hire from the community. I know people with raw talent and passion just trying to make it in their field who are passed over for someone who graduated from college where they learned to duplicate other people's techniques and lack true passion...
I had a composer friend who went to college for music composition. The stuff he came up with before being formally educated was better than what he came up with afterward. Even he felt that way. I don't know if he ever went back to writing music. Last I heard he was running a recording studio. What went wrong? At college, they told him he was doing composition wrong, and proceeded to force him to do it "right." They replaced his unique approach. It destroyed his muse.
I would take an artist with real heart and talent over one with a college degree any day.
Sorry for the rant...
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Indeed there are. Some of them express more artistic skills with their imaginative renditions based upon an existing IP in question than some people hired onto actual development teams for games based on that IP. Yet the developers always tend to hire people who may or may not have a real love for the IP, and they pass over those who have a genuing love for it AND the talent to depict it CORRECTLY...
Maybe the person does not have a college degree in digital art. Maybe they haven't had several years of experience working in game development with at least one successfully released title under their belt. If I looked at a page of "qualified" artists and found ten pages of artists with talent and love for the IP, I would pick the best among them and send them an email. But the corporate-run MMO industry does not hire from the community. I know people with raw talent and passion just trying to make it in their field who are passed over for someone who graduated from college where they learned to duplicate other people's techniques and lack true passion...
I had a composer friend who went to college for music composition. The stuff he came up with before being formally educated was better than what he came up with afterward. Even he felt that way. I don't know if he ever went back to writing music. Last I heard he was running a recording studio. What went wrong? At college, they told him he was doing composition wrong, and proceeded to force him to do it "right." They replaced his unique approach. It destroyed his muse.
I would take an artist with real heart and talent over one with a college degree any day.
Sorry for the rant...
Not a rant at all my man...well said and bravo. and this...
I would take an artist with real heart and talent over one with a college degree any day.
No I never said there was one true way, I'm voicing what I and many older D&D players thinks looks stupid...and that isn't going to go away. Right now we have a tiny forum community, if it grows you are going to get a flood of people saying what I'm saying. The same thing happened over at the STO forums pre-beta and it really caught cryptic off guard when the throngs of hard core Trekkies showed up. Comparatively I'm being kind about it....the Neverwinter Nights and PnP old guard won't be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8JOAWgQtDU It must be magic!!!!!!! :rolleyes: I have seen with my own eyes things you would think was impossible (someone standing beside you and vanishing and showing up several yards away ) that doesn't make it supernatural.
LOL! reading that article you can tell the person who wrote it knows jack all about Neverwinter Nights or D&D so he applied a common FPS term; I know some of the guys that worked on the third and fourth edition and they will tell you they cringe when people attach words like teleport to the trickster rogue.
It hurts just handing martial classes innate magic because they don't have it in the pen and paper game, that is like giving a two headed troll the ability cast magic missile...sure it would be fun to some folks, but it has nothing to do with D&D.
Finally, as far as the "realism nonsense" goes....a lot of well known IP's turned MMO's have tanked because they gave the finger to the veteran fans to "fun" it up, you can have fun and still respect the IP; if this game loses the support of veteran D&D players and the Neverwinter Nights community you will come back here in two years and see about as many people as you see now, which would be disastrous.
They want to make sure they get the bunny hopping defibrillator animation just right first.
I kid, I kid
First let me jsut say I wish you would stop speaking for the entirety of all D&D fans. Last time I checked no one voted you president of the unversal Dungeons and Dragons fan club. It's quite all right for you to not like something but to say "many older D&D players thinks looks stupid" is astoundingly naive at best and hyperbolic at worst. I have been playing P&P D&D since 1982 and I assure you, you do not speak for me and I can assume I can say for others based on the criticism you're recieving in this thread, but I will not speak for them.
ugh....why is it anytime anyone doesn't like something in this game they are hating? Why is it when someone supports something the are a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> licking fanboi? You can support or dislike and not be either ya know.
As for the size of the two handed swords there were some big <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> two handers, most of them were used against Calvary though and not as a man to man weapon.... one of the moves I liked was in the back sweep the fighter inverts his wrist and rests the blade on his shoulder which is a very realistic move....the rouge deft strike isn't actually teleporting...your looking at the abstract representation of quickly appearing behind a target, and just because a game has magic and other fantastical things shouldn't justify anything goes even at the expense of the integrity of decades of D&D.
Hercules and Xena were fantasy Television shows....that doesn't mean the fights scenes weren't cringe worthy and folks wouldn't rather watch Game Of Thrones or Lord of the rings, it's a matter of taste and many of us don't care for the mad spinning dervish, it doesn't make us haters we just think it looks incredibly stupid is all.
I agree the terms haters and fanbois are tossed around way to lightly, although for the good of this community not so much here.
Again this is a video game, realism doesn't sale unless your Mount and Blade besides Dungeons and Dragons is and always will be a fantasy game and not a medieval simulator so you can't honestly believe total 100% realism is good for a fantastical game especially one that is based on Dungeons and Dragons. I enjoy hyper fantasy in my MMO's and yes IMO Anime is a bit too much but that is an Eastern Style of genre where AD&D showcases western gameplay elements and this is exactly what is showcased in the videos and demos released so far. To compare what we've seen shown so far to something from a Japanese manga serial is again jsut another form of hyperbolic drek, the same which you've shown for speaking for the entire AD&D fan base. I'm sensing a pattern here that really is starting to offend me, grotesquely!
Never watched Hercules and Xena and could care less how the fights were re-enacted because again apples and oranges comparisons. However since NWO is based on Action Style Arcade/console combat what I have seen so far is perfectly within the norm for all western style combat animations, especially ones which are trying to bring out the "OHH WOW" factor, of which this video release of the GW Fighter does perfectly. If you've ever done a modicum of research on developer conference calls and blogs which go way above the fandom of your average consumer you realize that almost all 3rd person games use hyper realism because of camera angles, distance from the character avatar to the gamers eyes, and reactionary times required to render animations in a fluid and responsive manner. If you were true to form, in a 3rd person view, your jump animations would resemble a tiny toe tap of a jump. Your character mannerisms would be nonexistent etc. etc. etc. 3rd person combat lends itself to having overly complex obtuse stylized animation’s and movements because it is needed to grasp the scope of the action being parlayed on the screen. Here is a perfect example that explains this and it doesn't even come from a gaming medium, it comes from the Major Motion Picture industry.
As a mega fan of all things fantasy, especially Tolkien's Universe and Gygaxx's worlds I watch and read jsut about anything I can to understand the mind behind some of the greatest storytellers ever. As an example in Peter Jackson's original LotR film trilogy there are directors cuts extended DVD's which feature 2 DVD's worth outtakes, appendices and behind the scenes information for each movie. In one particular scene of these behind the scenes there is a extremely funny back and forth between Peter Jackson and the weapon smiths at Weta Workshops detailing the Witch King of Angmar's heavy flailing cudgel when he goes into battle with Eowyn during the siege of Minas Tirith. If you've seen these behind the scenes or the movies then you know the scene during the siege of Minas Tirith. Anyway I digress, back to the behind the scenes. During the Exchange, Peter Jackson had to tell the weapon smiths "larger" LARGER" when it came to that cudgel. So in a jokingly manner the guys went back and designed and created the most massively, unwieldy and unrealistic weapon they could....all on a joke to show Peter Jackson his foolishness. However when Peter comes back he finally says, now that’s what I wanted. Well why do I put this tory in here? Because you know as a fan when you first see that scene of the Witch King coming of the de-headed black drake, and the camera pans over from a top 3/4 top down view overlooking his shoulder and the smaller figure of Eowyn you realize.....Peter Jackson nailed IT! That is what hyper-realism brings. It adds oomph, it adds pizzazz and it adds detail that would otherwise be lacking. This to me is exactly why I like these obviously unrealistic animations of my beloved great weapon fighter.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
First let me jsut say I wish you would stop speaking for the entirety of all D&D fans. Last time I checked no one voted you president of the unversal Dungeons and Dragons fan club. It's quite all right for you to not like something but to say "many older D&D players thinks looks stupid" is astoundingly naive at best and hyperbolic at worst. I have been playing P&P D&D since 1982 and I assure you, you do not speak for me and I can assume I can say for others based on the criticism you're recieving in this thread, but I will not speak for them.
Again never said I spoke for the D&D community...but thanks for assuming I was...maybe if you actually read that I was talking about myself and the vets I know..who by the way wouldn't touch this forum with a ten foot pole for obvious reasons. Anyway...like I said to truth I'm outgunned here so I'm stepping away from the topic.
Well, sorta back on topic,..... I liked most of what i saw and it realy excited me and made me think that that is the class i realy wanna play. That being said, I too thought the spinning was a bit too cartoonish. Although as some have pointed out, if they would just slow down the rotation rate it bit, it would not look cartoonish at all. As a matter of fact, if they would load up a copy of NWN1 and take a look at the anamation for the Whirlwind attack ( HoTU ), you will get an idea of what I think the attack should look like, at least the speed of rotation wise any way. Oh, by the way, could you please bring back the double axe? The double axe Whirlwind attack of my Half-Orc was alot of fun to watch, unless you were one of the mobs on the receiveing end of it. And just as another side note, on the PW mod i played on, my Half-Orc was well know as the "dancing" Half-Orc becuse i would often fire off that feat with out a weapon in hand. It took many a fellow palyer by surprise to see a Half-Orc gracefully jump up in the air and make a perfect 360 spin and land softly on the ground. Spinning animations in a DnD game, naw come on, ya gotta be kidding me!!!
Again never said I spoke for the D&D community...but thanks for assuming I was...maybe if you actually read that I was talking about myself and the vets I know..who by the way wouldn't touch this forum with a ten foot pole for obvious reasons. Anyway...like I said to truth I'm outgunned here so I'm stepping away from the topic.
Jsut say I.. dont add vets or any other group, you do not speak to those.
Again way to totally ignore my entire argument though.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
Well, sorta back on topic,..... I liked most of what i saw and it realy excited me and made me think that that is the class i realy wanna play. That being said, I too thought the spinning was a bit too cartoonish. Although as some have pointed out, if they would just slow down the rotation rate it bit, it would not look cartoonish at all. As a matter of fact, if they would load up a copy of NWN1 and take a look at the anamation for the Whirlwind attack ( HoTU ), you will get an idea of what I think the attack should look like, at least the speed of rotation wise any way. Oh, by the way, could you please bring back the double axe? The double axe Whirlwind attack of my Half-Orc was alot of fun to watch, unless you were one of the mobs on the receiveing end of it. And just as another side note, on the PW mod i played on, my Half-Orc was well know as the "dancing" Half-Orc becuse i would often fire off that feat with out a weapon in hand. It was took many a fellow palyerby surprise to see a Half-Orc gracefully jump up in the air and make a perfect 360 spin and land softly on the ground. Spinning animations in a DnD game, naw come on, ya gotta be kidding me!!!
They could very well reduce the rate of spinning but would have to compensate by adding in more damage because I am sure the animation has a D.O.T. component and any tinkering of the animation would reduce the effectiveness of the skill. But I wish they wouldn't reduce it, I think it looks awesome, and even more fantastical and unrealistic (read: Heroic)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited January 2013
I honestly don't find the spin to be that much faster than it should be.
Certainly I think it could do with a slight speed reduction but it's not half as bad in my opinion as some of you feel. By the way, for the record, if you hold a big sword out in front of you as a counter-balance it's far easier to spin faster than if you just spin in place.
That being said most of the effect I think you guys are having is from...
1. Low FPS Recording Possibly making it faster than it is
2. The additional particle effects amplifying the spin
I do think it should be slowed down a bit, but it's not oh my god over the top cartoony to me.
Comments
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library
I'm sure we'll all have a magical time.
:P
Drinks resurrection potion, made in Moon.
Takes 20,000,k points of damage.
Survives with -9HP, makes the save and recovers to 1 HP.
I'm not crazy about the class naming scheme they've got so far but I'm also by no means offended by it.
I'm pretty sure they come straight from the books, which is cool.
It's just funny how cyptic try to say game is great from something that is normal in any other rpg game. Part from foundry i didn't see anything unique in this game.
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library
In pvp- you'll know clearly what you're hitting/what's hitting you, I think that's a good thing as some games can make it pretty unclear in that regard. Same with bosses- over exaggerated attacks give you a chance to dodge it; you have a much better chance of seeing with all the wizard spells and healing effects going off a big glowing meat cleaver spinning at you than a dull grey knife that blends in with the shadows/stone ground.
Due to the need for fast reaction times in an mmo compared to turn based- I think people might be more annoyed with a realistic version than they think.
That said- I don't really like how it looks, but, I don't really like 2 handers to begin with- more of a caster or stealthy type. Personally- I like the rogue's animations for the most part (though bloodbath looks too jolty imo- the others kinda get a Nightcrawler like vanish which I think looks neat).
I think it would be nice to get some ability customization for looks- change small things like the colour of the slashes for example- available from achievements/purchase/zen, etc...
Can you imagine a game dev saying 'ya this game is gonna be mediocre'? They have to sell their product/be positive about it no matter what.
Honestly- mmorpgs have had very tiny steps when it comes to uniqueness- most 'changes' that are happening even now are just numbers, for example stat numbers in pvp (GW2 made it so it's all the same), amount of grinding you have to do to get something (fewer and fewer tokens each year are needed as we move away from the monumental grinds of EQ and other older games).
What has truly been innovative? Probably the only real, big change of the past five years has been public quests/rifts/events or whatever else they're being called becoming a bigger part of games.
Frankly, I think a lot of people overstate the value of innovation- when the reality is most games those same people play and enjoy aren't much different from what they've already liked and enjoyed... and most games those same people hate and bash are the ones that are trying to do something unique and new.
Personally- I'd like to see an emersive world with more to it than grinding mobs for gear, I want to see combat that's more than just get rid of their hp before they get rid of yours- and I want to see the spirit of D&D come through; flashy moves, dragons, loot and wizards being weak at level 2 and OP at level 20 are just a small part of the IP, what really matters is that you're part of a world where stories are happening.
DDO quests were great in that while in them, every dungeon had its own story and you weren't there to just grind hordes of monsters- you were there to finish a mission of some sort... but, that didn't really translate to the city well and thus, to the mmo part of the game, it was like a small co-op game with a central hub.
I truly hope this game has more to it than that.
No it seems that they are pretty much ignoring the veteran players; according to the PCgamer article the daily powers are a mess and there are considerable bugs and content concerns.....that is probably why the game is delayed.
Hey better that then getting what we got with the last two cryptic launches.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
So now we're playing the "veteran card?" Voice of the "original" people and that jazz?
Two Words:
Dwarf Wizard.
On D&D, AD&D and 2nd edition AD&D this would have been an impossibility, and any person who tried to ply one in ANY "sanctioned" game (not using pre-gen characters MADE for that special tourney normally impossible thing) would be laughed out of the tourney or turned in for trying to cheat the rules. It got so notable, the RPGA actually made a game with network tournament players paying REAL money to AUCTION OFF a Dwarf Wizard from an epic past BEFORE they lost the ability to cast wizard magic. And all of this was approved by TSR before it was green-lit. Ask Robert Weise. Ask Dan Donnelly.
Now you say Dwarf wizard, you get a few shrugs at best or some person teases you for not making a min-max munchkin uber build.
Before third edition, fighters rarely spun.
Now, they have spun for THIRTEEN years.
And if you knock the "gamers who do/did third edition" as "softcore" with their spreadsheets squeezing EVERY LAST BIT of build to "be something acceptable compared to wizards at epic l 30 cap," then you are going to anger that hardcore crowd too.
And I should know having made wizards, AND fighters AND Monks AND Rangers, etc doing the power as well as the role-play build.
So stop assuming any of you speak exclusively for the "original hardcore community" or "classic community" (as I've only done this for 34+ years and even I meet people who can sit me down, call me, "sonny" and teach me a thing about Chainmail style and the original D&D.)
The game has a spinning move, and if the gamers can't accept 3rd and 4th ed doing this to a point that is spells their definition of game DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM (as we politely teased them in DDO too), then they won't play. We'll wish to have their stuff, and strangely, few refuse to leave, give up their stuff, and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and whine while playing 16 hours a day. I wonder if anybody acts like that still? [NSFW] I hope you all are warned not to become this. WE WILL mock you if you make videos like this. I PAID CASH MONEY FOR MY D&D BOXED SETS! CASH MONEY!
If they can learn it's a different game in MMO and in 3rd-4th ed, then they will play. I've heard all this BS before with Star Trek with TOS, TNG, DS9,STV, ST: E etc. And I'm a Trekkie. Not a Trekker in when it got popular BS. Back when if you went to conventions, it was never popular and only the Ren Fair people got teased more.
Somehow the game survived even if the "purists" of "pick your genres" weren't happy.
So all you Coke, Diet Coke, New Coke, Coke Zero, Pepsi, Diet Pepsi, Pepsi/Coke AM, Crystal Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, Diet Dr. Pepper. Regular and Diet Cherry/Vanilla/Lemon/lime EVERY brand, etc. you are all welcome with your variants of D&D here. Just understand like your drink, other people's tastes may vary and the menu is being served by somebody else.
Now NOBODY says they are the authority gamer spokesperson, 'cause we all "gots" our views, including multiple versions of hardcore/classic gamers.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Having said that I want to respond to the following:
This sort of stabs to the heart of what I feel an MMO based on an existing IP should be. Dating back to my Star Wars Galaxies days, I have felt that if a developer is going to base an MMO on a pre-existing IP, then first and foremost, the clearly established principles that define that IP should be at the core of the MMO. The mechanics of the MMO need to be wrapped around the IP. So far the only MMO whose developers have put forth an effort to do this is Lord of the Rings Online. Whether you like the game or not, when it was developed, no MMO mechanic went into it that did not somehow tie to something from Tolkien's writing. And while they have taken some creative license in parts of the story, there is precedence for it that can also be found in Tolkien's writing. For example, the strange monsters that dwell in the depths of Moria that have no direct reference in the books. But a line spoken by Gandalf opens the door for their existance. He was asked what the creature in the water was (the one that attacked the party at the entrance to Moria). He said that he didn't know, but that there were older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world. That right there allowed the creation of new and dangerous monsters that the player would not encounter anywhere else. After all, you can't get much deeper than Moria
Anyway. By catering to what the existing IP establishes first and foremost, and keeping it as a priority in all forward-going development, then at the very least the game will attract and hold the attention of the fans of the IP. Because the game will give them the closest thing they can get to actually visit the world or universe of their favorite fiction. Obviously, it needs to also appeal to the wider MMO audience as well. And every attempt needs to be made to satisfy them... But not at the expense of the IP and the core audience which is its fans. I would rather see a hundred players who don't really care about the IP quit than a single player that loves the IP. And since the average MMO development process follows the minimal effort approach to post-launch development, it really won't matter.
If someone created a MMO based on Robert Jordan's The Wheel of time, and they follow it to the letter in terms of establishing the rules of the world, if someone who has never read the books complains that they don't like the idea of losing their male channeling character to tainted madness and death, and if they don't take that out, they will quit, I would be the first one to yell, "There's the door, don't let it hit you in the butt on the way out!" If the risks of channeling as a male are clearly established, and that player does not run kicking and screaming into the arms of the Red Ajah and beg to be gentled, then they deserve whatever happens...
Anyway... I guess my question to any developer is "What is the point of securing the license to create a game based on a recognizable IP if the effort is not going to be there to make said game recognizable as being representative of that IP, except on just the surface?"
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Okay so now I'm the voice of the purist.
let me run this down so I can make sure I am cognizant of all my labels.
fanboi
hater
troll
purist
Did I miss anything? All this time I thought I was just a guy with likes and dislikes and the freedom to express those...heh silly me.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
You do know that the guy in that YouTube video is just acting, right. This is a character that he does on YouTube. If you are curious about what he's like out of character, watch this
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Money is what matters in most cases. Love, respect, and loyalty to a franchise isn't hard to find, but the skill to recreate it almost always comes with a price. It might be paying for the schooling for game design or developing a game, but in the end, very few people will do things out of the kindness and purity of their hearts, with no thought of reward. Fanfics, fanart, UGC ...... Sure there are faithful and dedicated people out there. To influence not only the players, but the IP itself with a huge project such as this, it boils down to "who's paying?" in the gaming market, and the majority (whether D&D vets or not) is going to have priority over what direction the game takes.
I want to be a fanboi of purist hater zealots everywhere...maybe I can do a kickstarter?
This is the last I'm going to say about it...there are directions that Cryptic is going that a lot of vets aren't going to follow...that not saying doom that is not playing chicken little, it's just that a demographic is going to feel like they are being given the finger and will not buy in.
Doesn't mean the game will fail...it just won't be D&D for a lot of folks the same way DDO isn't D&D for a lot of folks.
I have a lot of the Neverwinter Community ask me if I'm going to bring Shadowhaven to Neverwinter, I skipped NWN 2 for what I perceived as game breaking issues; right now I can't say yes, six months ago I was certain I would...not that it would be missed or that anyone would give a flying fudge one way or the other, I just think that Neverwinter is very very different from NWN and something tells me the communities just aren't going to cross over well.
Very well said...but isn't it sad that we live in a world where who's paying wins over pure artistic integrity? Even sadder that the average gamer could care less eh?
Sorry truth I spoke for myself and the folks in my D&D group I said that before...we think it sucks and belive from what we have seen that if it brings in capital Cryptic will give us Panda's and motorcycles and you being a duly appointed rep of Cryptic will no doubt justify it.
I'm out gunned here so I'll just let it drop at that... I don't want to end up like Mo and have everything I post deleted.
EDIT: And for your information I (along with many others ) did boycott 3rd ed and after 4th ed wizards came back to several of us who beta tested 1st and 2nd ed and asked us why...we are now in a SIG that Wotc steers for 5th ed...so there must have been some issues huh?
Indeed there are. Some of them express more artistic skills with their imaginative renditions based upon an existing IP in question than some people hired onto actual development teams for games based on that IP. Yet the developers always tend to hire people who may or may not have a real love for the IP, and they pass over those who have a genuing love for it AND the talent to depict it CORRECTLY...
Maybe the person does not have a college degree in digital art. Maybe they haven't had several years of experience working in game development with at least one successfully released title under their belt. If I looked at a page of "qualified" artists and found ten pages of artists with talent and love for the IP, I would pick the best among them and send them an email. But the corporate-run MMO industry does not hire from the community. I know people with raw talent and passion just trying to make it in their field who are passed over for someone who graduated from college where they learned to duplicate other people's techniques and lack true passion...
I had a composer friend who went to college for music composition. The stuff he came up with before being formally educated was better than what he came up with afterward. Even he felt that way. I don't know if he ever went back to writing music. Last I heard he was running a recording studio. What went wrong? At college, they told him he was doing composition wrong, and proceeded to force him to do it "right." They replaced his unique approach. It destroyed his muse.
I would take an artist with real heart and talent over one with a college degree any day.
Sorry for the rant...
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Not a rant at all my man...well said and bravo. and this... is sig worthy.
First let me jsut say I wish you would stop speaking for the entirety of all D&D fans. Last time I checked no one voted you president of the unversal Dungeons and Dragons fan club. It's quite all right for you to not like something but to say "many older D&D players thinks looks stupid" is astoundingly naive at best and hyperbolic at worst. I have been playing P&P D&D since 1982 and I assure you, you do not speak for me and I can assume I can say for others based on the criticism you're recieving in this thread, but I will not speak for them.
I agree the terms haters and fanbois are tossed around way to lightly, although for the good of this community not so much here.
Again this is a video game, realism doesn't sale unless your Mount and Blade besides Dungeons and Dragons is and always will be a fantasy game and not a medieval simulator so you can't honestly believe total 100% realism is good for a fantastical game especially one that is based on Dungeons and Dragons. I enjoy hyper fantasy in my MMO's and yes IMO Anime is a bit too much but that is an Eastern Style of genre where AD&D showcases western gameplay elements and this is exactly what is showcased in the videos and demos released so far. To compare what we've seen shown so far to something from a Japanese manga serial is again jsut another form of hyperbolic drek, the same which you've shown for speaking for the entire AD&D fan base. I'm sensing a pattern here that really is starting to offend me, grotesquely!
Never watched Hercules and Xena and could care less how the fights were re-enacted because again apples and oranges comparisons. However since NWO is based on Action Style Arcade/console combat what I have seen so far is perfectly within the norm for all western style combat animations, especially ones which are trying to bring out the "OHH WOW" factor, of which this video release of the GW Fighter does perfectly. If you've ever done a modicum of research on developer conference calls and blogs which go way above the fandom of your average consumer you realize that almost all 3rd person games use hyper realism because of camera angles, distance from the character avatar to the gamers eyes, and reactionary times required to render animations in a fluid and responsive manner. If you were true to form, in a 3rd person view, your jump animations would resemble a tiny toe tap of a jump. Your character mannerisms would be nonexistent etc. etc. etc. 3rd person combat lends itself to having overly complex obtuse stylized animation’s and movements because it is needed to grasp the scope of the action being parlayed on the screen. Here is a perfect example that explains this and it doesn't even come from a gaming medium, it comes from the Major Motion Picture industry.
As a mega fan of all things fantasy, especially Tolkien's Universe and Gygaxx's worlds I watch and read jsut about anything I can to understand the mind behind some of the greatest storytellers ever. As an example in Peter Jackson's original LotR film trilogy there are directors cuts extended DVD's which feature 2 DVD's worth outtakes, appendices and behind the scenes information for each movie. In one particular scene of these behind the scenes there is a extremely funny back and forth between Peter Jackson and the weapon smiths at Weta Workshops detailing the Witch King of Angmar's heavy flailing cudgel when he goes into battle with Eowyn during the siege of Minas Tirith. If you've seen these behind the scenes or the movies then you know the scene during the siege of Minas Tirith. Anyway I digress, back to the behind the scenes. During the Exchange, Peter Jackson had to tell the weapon smiths "larger" LARGER" when it came to that cudgel. So in a jokingly manner the guys went back and designed and created the most massively, unwieldy and unrealistic weapon they could....all on a joke to show Peter Jackson his foolishness. However when Peter comes back he finally says, now that’s what I wanted. Well why do I put this tory in here? Because you know as a fan when you first see that scene of the Witch King coming of the de-headed black drake, and the camera pans over from a top 3/4 top down view overlooking his shoulder and the smaller figure of Eowyn you realize.....Peter Jackson nailed IT! That is what hyper-realism brings. It adds oomph, it adds pizzazz and it adds detail that would otherwise be lacking. This to me is exactly why I like these obviously unrealistic animations of my beloved great weapon fighter.
Character is what a man is in the dark
Again never said I spoke for the D&D community...but thanks for assuming I was...maybe if you actually read that I was talking about myself and the vets I know..who by the way wouldn't touch this forum with a ten foot pole for obvious reasons. Anyway...like I said to truth I'm outgunned here so I'm stepping away from the topic.
Jsut say I.. dont add vets or any other group, you do not speak to those.
Again way to totally ignore my entire argument though.
Character is what a man is in the dark
They could very well reduce the rate of spinning but would have to compensate by adding in more damage because I am sure the animation has a D.O.T. component and any tinkering of the animation would reduce the effectiveness of the skill. But I wish they wouldn't reduce it, I think it looks awesome, and even more fantastical and unrealistic (read: Heroic)
Character is what a man is in the dark
Certainly I think it could do with a slight speed reduction but it's not half as bad in my opinion as some of you feel. By the way, for the record, if you hold a big sword out in front of you as a counter-balance it's far easier to spin faster than if you just spin in place.
That being said most of the effect I think you guys are having is from...
1. Low FPS Recording Possibly making it faster than it is
2. The additional particle effects amplifying the spin
I do think it should be slowed down a bit, but it's not oh my god over the top cartoony to me.
Enjoy the further discussion now with 67% less drama!