ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
Let's keep this about the Cash Shop and not get sidetracked by what Cryptic/PWE does/doesn't do.
Your opinions matter however it doesn't mean they're always going to be implemented. In a sense they are Cryptic's games and they will choose which courses to take but that doesn't mean they don't listen to player opinions of feedback. Any developer can tell you that player discussions often, at the very least, spark many of the ideas which are implemented into the game.
So, you're just fine with Cryptic quite literally doing the opposite of what they say they'd do? You don't mind being lied to by people who are attempting to make money off you?
Apparently you are too cause you spend a inordinate amount of time on thier forums usually whining about lockboxes. A rational person would just find another game :rolleyes:
Not exactly. I'm reminded of the old saying about a certain dictatorship in the WW2 era, "I didn't mind them at first, because they weren't after me, they were after another group of people..." It's called a slippery slope. You might not mind the changes at first, but every step they take is a step towards making an adjustment in the game that eventually you DON'T like.
It's in your best interest to understand why someone is upset and screaming "pay to win" even if it doesn't seem to affect you at first.
Did you really just compare a game developer with the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> party :rolleyes:
Apparently you are too cause you spend a inordinate amount of time on thier forums usually whining about lockboxes. A rational person would just find another game :rolleyes:
This game isn't out yet. I haven't been on the STO forums in a couple of years, and haven't been in that game for any significant amount of time in over a year. Also, I don't recall much complaining about lockboxes, just their lying about the cash shop.
If you're going to try and attack me personally, you could at least look up my post history.
Let me give you a clue about Cryptic.
Cryptic will tell us what we want to hear to get us playing so we may give them money.
Cryptic will DO whatever will make them the most money.
This does not mean they are the devil. It just means that they are like any other business whose goal is to make a profit. When you accept that, then you can adapt to whatever they do in their games. And you must also accept that it is THEIR game, not your game. What you expect it to be or hope it will be is irrelevant. It will be what it will be. We have two choices at that point. Accept it for what it is and play it, or reject it and move on. Whining about it will not change it. For three years the Klingon faction players have been begging Cryptic to bring the Klingon side on par with the Federation side. And for three years Cryptic has REFUSED. Yet the KDF players still whine. Heck I've been whining on their behalf as well and I am a UFP player. It does no good.
I am done raging against the machine over there. Cryptic will do what they will do. I can either find what enjoyment I can, or poke my bottom lip out, cross my arms and sulk in some corner. I could say I Quit, but there is no power in that. I haven't spent any money on STO since it went F2P. So if I did quit, they won't feel any loss. There is fun to be had in STO, but I only started truly realizing it when I finally just accepted it as it is. It will never be the game I want it to be. It will be what it will be in spite of me.
The problem with this attitude is that it ignores the fact that a lot of people paid Cryptic real money based on what they said would be in their games. Then, after getting that money, they gave those people something very different than what was advertised, sometimes to the point of giving players what they said they never would. In most industries this is an open-and-shut case of false advertising.
I'm well aware of the fact that things change in game development. However, for two consecutive games, Cryptic promised their players there'd be no power for sale in the C-store, and for two consecutive games, they AT BEST went back on their promise to the playerbase. Now, for the third consecutive game, the same people in the same company are making the same promises. Can ANYONE explain to me why I should take these people at their word? You seem resigned to just accept that they're lying to you, and maybe I should do that, but I ask you, WHY should we just accept that Cryptic is likely lying when they talk about the NW cash shop? Why can't we hold them accountable? Why is nobody WILLING to hold them accountable?
If you don't like the game or the developer's ethics, don't play it. Since jedidethfreak seems to have the scoop on what is in the cash store for NWO RIGHT NOW and what exactly they have and haven't delivered, maybe you could enlighten me at least, since I haven't seen it yet.
Truthfully, I can compare these remarks to using the foundry. "I've done [thispersons] quests before, so all of their future quests are going to be the same." "[Thisperson] made 2 fetchquests with the foundry, so his next one will be a fetchquest, too."
Well Craig said on video, that he was willing to sell his own mother-in-law to garantee a ftp game. I haven't seen PWE publish anything to that avail ... So while we want to believe (they) are about to deliver a game that wants to be as good as it can be, we may see something else pop up eventually. Depending on the market, i suppose. Previous games are no measure for that because according to own statements, Cryptic never published an AAA title before. Old titles are really just degenerated cash cows by now. All that together lets me think that NWO will be an important step on the way to a genre-breaker that is at least playable. But how much of the early ideas will become real is hard to tell from here.
The problem with this attitude is that it ignores the fact that a lot of people paid Cryptic real money based on what they said would be in their games. Then, after getting that money, they gave those people something very different than what was advertised, sometimes to the point of giving players what they said they never would. In most industries this is an open-and-shut case of false advertising.
I'm well aware of the fact that things change in game development. However, for two consecutive games, Cryptic promised their players there'd be no power for sale in the C-store, and for two consecutive games, they AT BEST went back on their promise to the playerbase. Now, for the third consecutive game, the same people in the same company are making the same promises. Can ANYONE explain to me why I should take these people at their word? You seem resigned to just accept that they're lying to you, and maybe I should do that, but I ask you, WHY should we just accept that Cryptic is likely lying when they talk about the NW cash shop? Why can't we hold them accountable? Why is nobody WILLING to hold them accountable?
You have to remember, Cryptic was owned by one company when they made those assurances, and under that company, they were probably true. When another company buys you from the first company, it's the new company's rules that have to be obeyed. Perfect World is an eastern company. In the eastrn market, paying for power is the norm. Cryptic does not have a say in the matter. No matter what arrangements were made under Atari, under PWE, it's what PWE says. Cryptic is not its own entity.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Well Craig said on video, that he was willing to sell his own mother-in-law to garantee a ftp game. I haven't seen PWE publish anything to that avail ... So while we want to believe (they) are about to deliver a game that wants to be as good as it can be, we may see something else pop up eventually. Depending on the market, i suppose. Previous games are no measure for that because according to own statements, Cryptic never published an AAA title before. Old titles are really just degenerated cash cows by now. All that together lets me think that NWO will be an important step on the way to a genre-breaker that is at least playable. But how much of the early ideas will become real is hard to tell from here.
Yeah but Craig would sell his Mother in law for McDonalds.
That could be. I was thinking of CO/STO and those titles seem to suffer from some kind of nutrimental attrition. (you can get bigger hamburgers, but not for free).
That could be. I was thinking of CO/STO and those titles seem to suffer from some kind of nutrimental attrition. (you can get bigger hamburgers, but not for free).
Actually that is very strange because afaik, all the cryptic's titles were AAA.
CoH(though they later gave it away).
Then CO (it was being developed for Marvel as 'marvel universe online' and they modified a few things to release it)
STO - star trek is definitely an AAA franchise and they took a lot of risk with introduction of UGC into MMO.
There is a simpler way to help fuel sales without giving away secrets that would ruin the launch: talk about the actual FTP plan. Talk a lot to the forum moderators privately and allow them to give limited previews. Talk up the good points of the known trailers, storyline, romantic backthreads, lore, history, city council efforts to hold things together, leadership, mercenary rewards, weapon crafting development, Hell, anything but silence. I would personally fire anyone who treated my customers in this way regardless of qualification.
I hope all this blows over though and have waited a long time like many others. Bad thing is I don't expect things to change. I'm already wishing for a Forgotten Realms title that will replace the MMO theme with a turn based D&D game with a storyline.
There is a simpler way to help fuel sales without giving away secrets that would ruin the launch: talk about the actual FTP plan. Talk a lot
I think i know what the problem is: Angst. They are afraid of the Greenpeace lobby for humane hamburgers. Someone might say something official and get flamed for it. Then that would be the reason for ultimate downfall.
I think i know what the problem is: Angst. They are afraid of the Greenpeace lobby for humane hamburgers. Someone might say something official and get flamed for it. Then that would be the reason for ultimate downfall.
That is a good enough explanation as any...because I have never seen a more draconian have to keep the lid on everything marketing team....it hasn't done the game any favors and it's hindered instead of fostering the community.
That is a good enough explanation as any...because I have never seen a more draconian have to keep the lid on everything marketing team....it hasn't done the game any favors and it's hindered instead of fostering the community.
Agree and would add some more drama even on the FTP subject. It is somewhat likely they will reneg on this old, pre acquisition promise in some way shape or form and there is more guilt to confess than we suspect. Spankings all around. Mums the word. wink wink nudge nudge..:p
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
It's hard to know the grass is greener on the other side if you haven't gone to the other side yet.
Toss that around for a few. You can't say you would be happier knowing unreleased content without knowing what the unreleased content is, logically speaking.
Let's say Cryptic opened the doors and let you know EVERYTHING. Every single thing that has been done thus far as well as every single thing which they plan for the immediate future. Their progress, their plans for release. Everything.
Do you really think, even if players agreed with every bit of news, the cries for more information would go away?
If you take a moment to observe, it's not uncommon for players on any game to complain the company isn't transparent right after large press releases.
Honestly, there's nothing set in stone now. The marketing is still very much in the air as far as specifics go and it can only begin to be finalized after during Beta/After Launch. The game has to be finished before marketing truly takes the spotlight.
Now, going back to they released every single bit of information, with the knowledge that the marketing plan is not in any way finalized...what happens when they release information and later change the plans? Players won't be angry?
Pfft. We still have people complaining that the game got delayed to 2013. Changes to released information end badly no matter how to cut it.
When companies release information they will always be held to deliver exactly what they said by the customers. Any person in the industry can tell you sometimes initial plans don't work out, things simply aren't possible to be done. No matter how much companies explain that the game just can't support those plans, years after the changes they will be held accountable for a false promise, which was nothing more than a pre-released plan, by the player base.
When information is ready to be released it will be released. They're not holding back information which isn't subject to change and that's the bottom line.
It's rule #1 in Game Development, if plans can change don't release the information.
It never, ever, ends well.
...
When information is ready to be released it will be released. They're not holding back information which isn't subject to change and that's the bottom line.
It's rule #1 in Game Development, if plans can change don't release the information.
It never, ever, ends well.
I kind of agree with that. People who have waited on forums may be forgiving because they love the game but others who will just come here quickly to check it out will post it all over to debunk the game with much misinformation mixed to it. For example they may take alpha shots of the game and say graphics look terrible while it may be some backend problem or they may simply say something e.g. "which was a problem to be taken care of later but not taken care of now because whenever things change this problem gets changed so we have to do it again anyways".
EDIT: But it still makes me sad over lack of information.
EVERYTHING Cryptic does is wrong. If they release information, it's not the information one group wants. If they don't release information, everyone screams about how they must be hiding something. If the announce a feature, someone will hate it.
There is nothing they can do that is not going to be met with rage and whining. They hate us, you know...
Do you see what I did there?
I used to swear up and down that if I was able to pursue the development of an MMO, that I would be right there in the community posting all the time. But after seeing how the communities treat their respective game's developers, I've decided that I probably won't even reveal the game until I have it almost finished, and take a "They will like it or they will hate it" approach and just accept the outcome.
Sometimes I long for the old days of gaming where there was no Internet to be spoild by and where we can hide behined the annonymity of a forum avatar and treat people who are working their butts off at the direction of someone else to bring a vision that is not even personally theirs to life so yet someone else can reap the monetary rewards while laying people off who are really desparately needed to keep production on track after launch.
I think my desire to be a game developer myself has died with this very post.
Ah well...
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
It's hard to know the grass is greener on the other side if you haven't gone to the other side yet.
Toss that around for a few. You can't say you would be happier knowing unreleased content without knowing what the unreleased content is, logically speaking.
Let's say Cryptic opened the doors and let you know EVERYTHING. Every single thing that has been done thus far as well as every single thing which they plan for the immediate future. Their progress, their plans for release. Everything.
Do you really think, even if players agreed with every bit of news, the cries for more information would go away?
If you take a moment to observe, it's not uncommon for players on any game to complain the company isn't transparent right after large press releases.
Honestly, there's nothing set in stone now. The marketing is still very much in the air as far as specifics go and it can only begin to be finalized after during Beta/After Launch. The game has to be finished before marketing truly takes the spotlight.
Now, going back to they released every single bit of information, with the knowledge that the marketing plan is not in any way finalized...what happens when they release information and later change the plans? Players won't be angry?
Pfft. We still have people complaining that the game got delayed to 2013. Changes to released information end badly no matter how to cut it.
When companies release information they will always be held to deliver exactly what they said by the customers. Any person in the industry can tell you sometimes initial plans don't work out, things simply aren't possible to be done. No matter how much companies explain that the game just can't support those plans, years after the changes they will be held accountable for a false promise, which was nothing more than a pre-released plan, by the player base.
When information is ready to be released it will be released. They're not holding back information which isn't subject to change and that's the bottom line.
It's rule #1 in Game Development, if plans can change don't release the information.
It never, ever, ends well.
That is only true during a certain period of development time, the game has to be feature complete by now....and if it isn't Neverwinter won't be launching until late summer or early fall 2013...also if things aren't set in stone by know...it means they have developmental drift...and lack of a cohesive vision when the product is in F&F testing usually means bad things.
My point is what you are saying was very true six months ago which is why I was the first one to stand up and defend Cryptic ( I hope you remember those spirited debates between Andre and myself) But since we know this game is in F&F testing (god knows there is enough leaked videos out there telling us it is) and is closing fast into beta ( maybe...I mean after all who knows marketing has put a gag order on everything) this games road map has to be locked in...and if it isn't god help us and Cryptic.
Also look at how many false starts have been promised so far....how many times has stormshade showed up and said "guys we know we have been quiet but very soon you are going to get a lot more updates" and that never happens or we get another video that doesn't really tell us anything.
At this point there are two possibilities; the development isn't going well and we are looking at yet another delay to 2nd or 3rd Q 2013, or the devs can't come up with a unified vision of what Neverwinter is and therefore can't pass information along to the community. Because if the game was feature complete ready for beta you can bet your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they hype machine would be in full swing and it hasn't even started yet.
EVERYTHING Cryptic does is wrong. If they release information, it's not the information one group wants. If they don't release information, everyone screams about how they must be hiding something. If the announce a feature, someone will hate it.
There is nothing they can do that is not going to be met with rage and whining. They hate us, you know...
Do you see what I did there?
I used to swear up and down that if I was able to pursue the development of an MMO, that I would be right there in the community posting all the time. But after seeing how the communities treat their respective game's developers, I've decided that I probably won't even reveal the game until I have it almost finished, and take a "They will like it or they will hate it" approach and just accept the outcome.
Sometimes I long for the old days of gaming where there was no Internet to be spoild by and where we can hide behined the annonymity of a forum avatar and treat people who are working their butts off at the direction of someone else to bring a vision that is not even personally theirs to life so yet someone else can reap the monetary rewards while laying people off who are really desparately needed to keep production on track after launch.
I think my desire to be a game developer myself has died with this very post.
Ah well...
No one is saying that and there is no rage here...everyone who knows me on these forums knows I have a record of patience and giving Cryptic the benefit of the doubt.....all some of us are asking is a bit more communication from the developers, that isn't being spoiled or asking too much. Cryptic would like to have our loyalty, but they really aren't doing much to earn it.
... and we are looking at yet another delay to 2nd or 3rd Q 2013....
They haven't announced a date yet. As long as they don't announce a date, always take the estimate with a pinch of salt. That said, I am sure beta will probably be released by Jan 2013 (or Q1) but release of game???
Maybe even later 2013 with open beta mid-2013. Who knows.
They haven't announced a date yet. As long as they don't announce a date, always take the estimate with a pinch of salt. That said, I am sure beta will probably be released by Jan 2013 (or Q1) but release of game???
Maybe even later 2013 with open beta mid-2013. Who knows.
That's quite possible...thing is I don't know how many folks will still be interested if we are talking about a late 2013 launch.
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
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nemesis788450Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
they also said once that beta will probably start fall 2012, then it was december latest, then release q1 2013...just forget about the game, play something else and be happy when/if it gets out...maybe even archeage will be out before
Well, I can sympathize with devs if their game got delayed because they were too optimistic about somethings which didn't work(although I feel that forum users have every right to feel angry at hush-hush on dates even after delay of the game), but then marketing guys should at least answer those questions we sent to mmorpg.com for the time being... they have not been answered yet.
That's quite possible...thing is I don't know how many folks will still be interested if we are talking about a late 2013 launch.
The good part, for Cryptic, is there's really no game that interests me other then Neverwinter. Aside from Archeage but that's several years down the road. People might get huffy and leave, but most will return for beta/release. What else is there out there worth a .....
.?
The community here doesn't seem unreasonable, their desire for information doesn't seem that unrealistic. There are things they could tell us that would make most happy. Make them feel like some communication is happening between the players and the Devs. Like what classes are going to be in beta. What races are currently ready and will be included. I think all of us understand if they say this or that may change between now and launch, that they mean just that and wouldn't freak out if indeed it does change. Oh sure some younglings will whine and threaten to ragequit, but everyone is used to that. :rolleyes:
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
This will not always be in post order as I reply to certain grouped quotes.
EVERYTHING Cryptic does is wrong. If they release information, it's not the information one group wants. If they don't release information, everyone screams about how they must be hiding something. If the announce a feature, someone will hate it.
There is nothing they can do that is not going to be met with rage and whining. They hate us, you know...
Do you see what I did there?
I used to swear up and down that if I was able to pursue the development of an MMO, that I would be right there in the community posting all the time. But after seeing how the communities treat their respective game's developers, I've decided that I probably won't even reveal the game until I have it almost finished, and take a "They will like it or they will hate it" approach and just accept the outcome.
Sometimes I long for the old days of gaming where there was no Internet to be spoild by and where we can hide behined the annonymity of a forum avatar and treat people who are working their butts off at the direction of someone else to bring a vision that is not even personally theirs to life so yet someone else can reap the monetary rewards while laying people off who are really desparately needed to keep production on track after launch.
I think my desire to be a game developer myself has died with this very post.
That is only true during a certain period of development time, the game has to be feature complete by now....and if it isn't Neverwinter won't be launching until late summer or early fall 2013...also if things aren't set in stone by know...it means they have developmental drift...and lack of a cohesive vision when the product is in F&F testing usually means bad things.
My point is what you are saying was very true six months ago which is why I was the first one to stand up and defend Cryptic ( I hope you remember those spirited debates between Andre and myself) But since we know this game is in F&F testing (god knows there is enough leaked videos out there telling us it is) and is closing fast into beta ( maybe...I mean after all who knows marketing has put a gag order on everything) this games road map has to be locked in...and if it isn't god help us and Cryptic.
Also look at how many false starts have been promised so far....how many times has stormshade showed up and said "guys we know we have been quiet but very soon you are going to get a lot more updates" and that never happens or we get another video that doesn't really tell us anything.
At this point there are two possibilities; the development isn't going well and we are looking at yet another delay to 2nd or 3rd Q 2013, or the devs can't come up with a unified vision of what Neverwinter is and therefore can't pass information along to the community. Because if the game was feature complete ready for beta you can bet your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they hype machine would be in full swing and it hasn't even started yet.
Oh really? You know this for a fact?
Well, since F&F isn't a secret but the details are, let's play what if.
People might get huffy and leave, but most will return for beta/release. What else is there out there worth a ......?
The community here doesn't seem unreasonable, their desire for information doesn't seem that unrealistic. There are things they could tell us that would make most happy. Make them feel like some communication is happening between the players and the Devs. Like what classes are going to be in beta. What races are currently ready and will be included. I think all of us understand if they say this or that may change between now and launch, that they mean just that and wouldn't freak out if indeed it does change. Oh sure some younglings will whine and threaten to ragequit, but everyone is used to that. :rolleyes:
What if the features are not complete? What if the things are at a stage where those people testing the features actually change them? What if they haven't F&F announced everything and it's not ready? What if all the assumed races and classes are not actually finalized and even released for testing? Maybe that's all true, maybe part of that is, and maybe none of that is.
But the point is, if Beta has not been announced, then they aren't done with internal testing and it's not ready to be viewed by the public for mainly in my opinion the reasons stated by sirsitsalot.
People (most of the time) now a days don't take the time to go through and test game things to the point it's made ready to release on a developmental level. People just want a free preview (most of the time.) And if that crop of F&F users show anything, many showed they either were/are not paying attention to what the details say on not discussing the game publicly or deliberately didn't care (and I hope those who broke their NDA deliberately get banned from testing.)
Now imagine a bunch of people like this who did not pay attention or don't care to (so even if there were an NDA it would be worthless) in the thousands. Imagine them not getting how they are supposed to help focus the game's features and leave confidential feedback to things can be fine-tuned. No, this type of gamer we all fear will just email and blog and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on everything more often than not and say how the game is ruined. Of course the gaming media looking for any info to scoop or retain readers will publish some of these "verified" things, and some game aspect not even finished then generates bad press.
Is it a wonder most of us are cynical, thinking beta means PR for a "finished product" these days?
And realistically while I'm not saying every NW member would do this (and not even here) but many would.
And based on what I have had to learn personally from Alpha/F&F from a non-developmental side, it leads me to believe the features are not ready if they haven't announced beta. It's likely the users (not the company and their private testing only, yes a company has its staff only area for this,) haven't even tried all the features, based on the rumors I keep hearing about all these radical changes, so stuff may still not be released if half the rumors alone turn out to be true.
No one is saying that and there is no rage here...everyone who knows me on these forums knows I have a record of patience and giving Cryptic the benefit of the doubt.....all some of us are asking is a bit more communication from the developers, that isn't being spoiled or asking too much. Cryptic would like to have our loyalty, but they really aren't doing much to earn it.
They haven't announced a date yet. As long as they don't announce a date, always take the estimate with a pinch of salt. That said, I am sure beta will probably be released by Jan 2013 (or Q1) but release of game???
Maybe even later 2013 with open beta mid-2013. Who knows.
they also said once that beta will probably start fall 2012, then it was december latest, then release q1 2013...just forget about the game, play something else and be happy when/if it gets out...maybe even archeage will be out before
Honestly, I don't see much difference in other companies between when a company enters F&F to the release of beta in regards to being mum. That between state is tough!
A lot of things are clamped down as they are not ready to release because they are changing stuff on the fly. Oh wait, didn't I say that above? At least we know WHY they got so quiet, because they entered this stage. Often we hear about the F&F earlier, then it goes dark. Apparently it happened in reverse here.
As for Beta, the earlier release dates were mentioned BEFORE the announced delay for polish and inclusion of PvP in mid August. Therefore, any person who claims those release dates is either missing that delay announcement after or selectively ignoring it.
I'm expecting an announcement at best in January, and no promise of release of beta that month. And that's only due to a tweet leading to an announcement in another country's convention. Not necessarily the best of sources. And no, I absolutely have no info on the beta date nor do any other volunteer mods. I can't speak for Cryptic ones if they do or do not. Only they know or not.
If I were to Criticize Cryptic, I'd do so for not making announcements and information directly. Third party announcements as we can sometimes see, lead to a game of telephone. Oh wait, this is owned by PWE now. Make that Chinese whispers.
Finally, I respect everybody's take on it even if their opinions disagree with mine.
But let's try and use verifiable facts when we can. And give Cryptic SOME wiggle room for no longer being under the "old evil distributor that we shall not name here." After all they did ruin the reputation of this and Turbine's company both at their last game's game launch and quite a while afterwards.
I'm sure if he may or may not agree with I've posted here Aandre can agree with this very last point here regarding DDO.
Personally I am just waiting for the game. Sure i have tried to get some devs on NOCS but Craig told me he would send someone down here for just that. Sorry I can't show you the PM directly.
Really though if you look at my record most of any "quarrels" I was in were with people who didnt like how I greeted new forum members and people who got angry when I told them begging for beta wont work. Also I have said give Cryptic all the time it needs I dont want another half done game like D3(really it felt like 1/8 done.).
In the words of Yoda " Patience you must have my young padawan"
Of course I don't know any of this for a fact Truth and even if I did accidently come across some tangible information I would keep my mouth shut because hey I'd like to keep my account; but you're what ifs are pretty much one of the reasons I'm concerned if they are changing major things on the fly at this stage in the game it's worrisome to me.
And honestly it's really hard to use verifiable facts because there are so damn few, I hope you're right and we get some tangible news in January, I'm still interested (downgraded from excited) about Neverwinter, but if we are looking at four to six more months or longer I really don't know how much interest will be left.
Comments
Your opinions matter however it doesn't mean they're always going to be implemented. In a sense they are Cryptic's games and they will choose which courses to take but that doesn't mean they don't listen to player opinions of feedback. Any developer can tell you that player discussions often, at the very least, spark many of the ideas which are implemented into the game.
Apparently you are too cause you spend a inordinate amount of time on thier forums usually whining about lockboxes. A rational person would just find another game :rolleyes:
Did you really just compare a game developer with the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> party :rolleyes:
This game isn't out yet. I haven't been on the STO forums in a couple of years, and haven't been in that game for any significant amount of time in over a year. Also, I don't recall much complaining about lockboxes, just their lying about the cash shop.
If you're going to try and attack me personally, you could at least look up my post history.
The problem with this attitude is that it ignores the fact that a lot of people paid Cryptic real money based on what they said would be in their games. Then, after getting that money, they gave those people something very different than what was advertised, sometimes to the point of giving players what they said they never would. In most industries this is an open-and-shut case of false advertising.
I'm well aware of the fact that things change in game development. However, for two consecutive games, Cryptic promised their players there'd be no power for sale in the C-store, and for two consecutive games, they AT BEST went back on their promise to the playerbase. Now, for the third consecutive game, the same people in the same company are making the same promises. Can ANYONE explain to me why I should take these people at their word? You seem resigned to just accept that they're lying to you, and maybe I should do that, but I ask you, WHY should we just accept that Cryptic is likely lying when they talk about the NW cash shop? Why can't we hold them accountable? Why is nobody WILLING to hold them accountable?
Truthfully, I can compare these remarks to using the foundry. "I've done [thispersons] quests before, so all of their future quests are going to be the same." "[Thisperson] made 2 fetchquests with the foundry, so his next one will be a fetchquest, too."
You have to remember, Cryptic was owned by one company when they made those assurances, and under that company, they were probably true. When another company buys you from the first company, it's the new company's rules that have to be obeyed. Perfect World is an eastern company. In the eastrn market, paying for power is the norm. Cryptic does not have a say in the matter. No matter what arrangements were made under Atari, under PWE, it's what PWE says. Cryptic is not its own entity.
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Yeah but Craig would sell his Mother in law for McDonalds.
Wasn't City Of Heroes suppose to be a AAA title?
That could be. I was thinking of CO/STO and those titles seem to suffer from some kind of nutrimental attrition. (you can get bigger hamburgers, but not for free).
Mmmmmmmm Hambugers dro0000llll
CoH(though they later gave it away).
Then CO (it was being developed for Marvel as 'marvel universe online' and they modified a few things to release it)
STO - star trek is definitely an AAA franchise and they took a lot of risk with introduction of UGC into MMO.
I hope all this blows over though and have waited a long time like many others. Bad thing is I don't expect things to change. I'm already wishing for a Forgotten Realms title that will replace the MMO theme with a turn based D&D game with a storyline.
https://soundcloud.com/nathankilgore/i-wanna-see-you2
Otter ~~~~ on Beholder
I think i know what the problem is: Angst. They are afraid of the Greenpeace lobby for humane hamburgers. Someone might say something official and get flamed for it. Then that would be the reason for ultimate downfall.
That is a good enough explanation as any...because I have never seen a more draconian have to keep the lid on everything marketing team....it hasn't done the game any favors and it's hindered instead of fostering the community.
Agree and would add some more drama even on the FTP subject. It is somewhat likely they will reneg on this old, pre acquisition promise in some way shape or form and there is more guilt to confess than we suspect. Spankings all around. Mums the word. wink wink nudge nudge..:p
https://soundcloud.com/nathankilgore/i-wanna-see-you2
Otter ~~~~ on Beholder
Toss that around for a few. You can't say you would be happier knowing unreleased content without knowing what the unreleased content is, logically speaking.
Let's say Cryptic opened the doors and let you know EVERYTHING. Every single thing that has been done thus far as well as every single thing which they plan for the immediate future. Their progress, their plans for release. Everything.
Do you really think, even if players agreed with every bit of news, the cries for more information would go away?
If you take a moment to observe, it's not uncommon for players on any game to complain the company isn't transparent right after large press releases.
Honestly, there's nothing set in stone now. The marketing is still very much in the air as far as specifics go and it can only begin to be finalized after during Beta/After Launch. The game has to be finished before marketing truly takes the spotlight.
Now, going back to they released every single bit of information, with the knowledge that the marketing plan is not in any way finalized...what happens when they release information and later change the plans? Players won't be angry?
Pfft. We still have people complaining that the game got delayed to 2013. Changes to released information end badly no matter how to cut it.
When companies release information they will always be held to deliver exactly what they said by the customers. Any person in the industry can tell you sometimes initial plans don't work out, things simply aren't possible to be done. No matter how much companies explain that the game just can't support those plans, years after the changes they will be held accountable for a false promise, which was nothing more than a pre-released plan, by the player base.
When information is ready to be released it will be released. They're not holding back information which isn't subject to change and that's the bottom line.
It's rule #1 in Game Development, if plans can change don't release the information.
It never, ever, ends well.
I kind of agree with that. People who have waited on forums may be forgiving because they love the game but others who will just come here quickly to check it out will post it all over to debunk the game with much misinformation mixed to it. For example they may take alpha shots of the game and say graphics look terrible while it may be some backend problem or they may simply say something e.g. "which was a problem to be taken care of later but not taken care of now because whenever things change this problem gets changed so we have to do it again anyways".
EDIT: But it still makes me sad over lack of information.
EVERYTHING Cryptic does is wrong. If they release information, it's not the information one group wants. If they don't release information, everyone screams about how they must be hiding something. If the announce a feature, someone will hate it.
There is nothing they can do that is not going to be met with rage and whining. They hate us, you know...
Do you see what I did there?
I used to swear up and down that if I was able to pursue the development of an MMO, that I would be right there in the community posting all the time. But after seeing how the communities treat their respective game's developers, I've decided that I probably won't even reveal the game until I have it almost finished, and take a "They will like it or they will hate it" approach and just accept the outcome.
Sometimes I long for the old days of gaming where there was no Internet to be spoild by and where we can hide behined the annonymity of a forum avatar and treat people who are working their butts off at the direction of someone else to bring a vision that is not even personally theirs to life so yet someone else can reap the monetary rewards while laying people off who are really desparately needed to keep production on track after launch.
I think my desire to be a game developer myself has died with this very post.
Ah well...
but I play one on the forums...
:P
That is only true during a certain period of development time, the game has to be feature complete by now....and if it isn't Neverwinter won't be launching until late summer or early fall 2013...also if things aren't set in stone by know...it means they have developmental drift...and lack of a cohesive vision when the product is in F&F testing usually means bad things.
My point is what you are saying was very true six months ago which is why I was the first one to stand up and defend Cryptic ( I hope you remember those spirited debates between Andre and myself) But since we know this game is in F&F testing (god knows there is enough leaked videos out there telling us it is) and is closing fast into beta ( maybe...I mean after all who knows marketing has put a gag order on everything) this games road map has to be locked in...and if it isn't god help us and Cryptic.
Also look at how many false starts have been promised so far....how many times has stormshade showed up and said "guys we know we have been quiet but very soon you are going to get a lot more updates" and that never happens or we get another video that doesn't really tell us anything.
At this point there are two possibilities; the development isn't going well and we are looking at yet another delay to 2nd or 3rd Q 2013, or the devs can't come up with a unified vision of what Neverwinter is and therefore can't pass information along to the community. Because if the game was feature complete ready for beta you can bet your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they hype machine would be in full swing and it hasn't even started yet.
No one is saying that and there is no rage here...everyone who knows me on these forums knows I have a record of patience and giving Cryptic the benefit of the doubt.....all some of us are asking is a bit more communication from the developers, that isn't being spoiled or asking too much. Cryptic would like to have our loyalty, but they really aren't doing much to earn it.
Maybe even later 2013 with open beta mid-2013. Who knows.
That's quite possible...thing is I don't know how many folks will still be interested if we are talking about a late 2013 launch.
The good part, for Cryptic, is there's really no game that interests me other then Neverwinter. Aside from Archeage but that's several years down the road. People might get huffy and leave, but most will return for beta/release. What else is there out there worth a .....
.?
The community here doesn't seem unreasonable, their desire for information doesn't seem that unrealistic. There are things they could tell us that would make most happy. Make them feel like some communication is happening between the players and the Devs. Like what classes are going to be in beta. What races are currently ready and will be included. I think all of us understand if they say this or that may change between now and launch, that they mean just that and wouldn't freak out if indeed it does change. Oh sure some younglings will whine and threaten to ragequit, but everyone is used to that. :rolleyes:
Frustrated at times not hate. The rest, yes.
Oh really? You know this for a fact?
Well, since F&F isn't a secret but the details are, let's play what if.
Let's add another out of order quote for example.
What if the features are not complete? What if the things are at a stage where those people testing the features actually change them? What if they haven't F&F announced everything and it's not ready? What if all the assumed races and classes are not actually finalized and even released for testing? Maybe that's all true, maybe part of that is, and maybe none of that is.
But the point is, if Beta has not been announced, then they aren't done with internal testing and it's not ready to be viewed by the public for mainly in my opinion the reasons stated by sirsitsalot.
People (most of the time) now a days don't take the time to go through and test game things to the point it's made ready to release on a developmental level. People just want a free preview (most of the time.) And if that crop of F&F users show anything, many showed they either were/are not paying attention to what the details say on not discussing the game publicly or deliberately didn't care (and I hope those who broke their NDA deliberately get banned from testing.)
Now imagine a bunch of people like this who did not pay attention or don't care to (so even if there were an NDA it would be worthless) in the thousands. Imagine them not getting how they are supposed to help focus the game's features and leave confidential feedback to things can be fine-tuned. No, this type of gamer we all fear will just email and blog and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on everything more often than not and say how the game is ruined. Of course the gaming media looking for any info to scoop or retain readers will publish some of these "verified" things, and some game aspect not even finished then generates bad press.
Is it a wonder most of us are cynical, thinking beta means PR for a "finished product" these days?
And realistically while I'm not saying every NW member would do this (and not even here) but many would.
And based on what I have had to learn personally from Alpha/F&F from a non-developmental side, it leads me to believe the features are not ready if they haven't announced beta. It's likely the users (not the company and their private testing only, yes a company has its staff only area for this,) haven't even tried all the features, based on the rumors I keep hearing about all these radical changes, so stuff may still not be released if half the rumors alone turn out to be true.
Honestly, I don't see much difference in other companies between when a company enters F&F to the release of beta in regards to being mum. That between state is tough!
A lot of things are clamped down as they are not ready to release because they are changing stuff on the fly. Oh wait, didn't I say that above? At least we know WHY they got so quiet, because they entered this stage. Often we hear about the F&F earlier, then it goes dark. Apparently it happened in reverse here.
As for Beta, the earlier release dates were mentioned BEFORE the announced delay for polish and inclusion of PvP in mid August. Therefore, any person who claims those release dates is either missing that delay announcement after or selectively ignoring it.
I'm expecting an announcement at best in January, and no promise of release of beta that month. And that's only due to a tweet leading to an announcement in another country's convention. Not necessarily the best of sources. And no, I absolutely have no info on the beta date nor do any other volunteer mods. I can't speak for Cryptic ones if they do or do not. Only they know or not.
If I were to Criticize Cryptic, I'd do so for not making announcements and information directly. Third party announcements as we can sometimes see, lead to a game of telephone. Oh wait, this is owned by PWE now. Make that Chinese whispers.
Finally, I respect everybody's take on it even if their opinions disagree with mine.
But let's try and use verifiable facts when we can. And give Cryptic SOME wiggle room for no longer being under the "old evil distributor that we shall not name here." After all they did ruin the reputation of this and Turbine's company both at their last game's game launch and quite a while afterwards.
I'm sure if he may or may not agree with I've posted here Aandre can agree with this very last point here regarding DDO.
Really though if you look at my record most of any "quarrels" I was in were with people who didnt like how I greeted new forum members and people who got angry when I told them begging for beta wont work. Also I have said give Cryptic all the time it needs I dont want another half done game like D3(really it felt like 1/8 done.).
In the words of Yoda " Patience you must have my young padawan"
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
And honestly it's really hard to use verifiable facts because there are so damn few, I hope you're right and we get some tangible news in January, I'm still interested (downgraded from excited) about Neverwinter, but if we are looking at four to six more months or longer I really don't know how much interest will be left.