> yeah if any1 of you are guild leaders with guilds still not at level 20 I would advice you to buy grandmasters to save them for a time of need.
>
> The more I know and think over that rework it seems less funny.
Has this been tried on preview? I thought all your professions assets got turned into a points pot to spend on assets in the new system. Do you get a choice between turning them into points and donating them to the coffer? I had seen a recovery in AH prices but thought that was people looking to maximise their points total.
Keep in mind that new lockboxes wont drop grandmasters any more. According to some well informed sites (lol) new lockbox wont drop any boxes at all. All items you can get form lockbox itself and all internal boxes would be divided into 3 different groups and you gona get 1 item from each group (main rewards, refinement reward and utility rewards). Thing is that atm there is still no info if old lockboxes gona be reworked to work accordingly. Either way grandmaster in new voucher state wont be included in any new lockbox and in time all old lockboxes will disappear.
Also - do not forget that all assets would be bounded to character after a mod release - so all grandmaster will stuck to characters after a change
Good thing is that todays "labor" will be changed to "profession materials" and you can literally put everyting inside. So filling a coffer wont be as hard as I previously expected, unless you are new player with empty crafting inventory. Due to vide range of various materials you will possibly find a cost effective way to fill a coffer.
I am talking about current inventory not future items, so what drops in the future is not my concern.
I had a narrower point. Will the epic items in my inventory be worth more (less/same as) to the stronghold coffer if donated before the 6th or after conversion?
Has anyone checked this?
As the item points values were calculated from AH data there is no direct trail back to the current coffer equivalence of 12,500 for an epic crafter.
Since people seem to misunderstand what I was trying to say.
People who use the crafting system today who are not Mastercrafters fall majorly into two categories, sometimes both at once: 1) Those who use it for RP points. 2) Those who use it to help their guilds grow through making stuff to donate.
The RP point people will be majorly compensated by the removal of many of the ways of getting RP from crafting by epic equipment now no longer giving salvage but RP points instead. Yes I know we can craft gems now, but the value vs time and effort consumed isn't comparable to the current system. Though I grant a lot of us will likely feel flipped off by the complete removal of Leadership with nothing there to replace it. No Gathering isn't the new Leadership, it's a totally new profession that has nothing to do with Leadership. But that be as it may, we're at least being compensated in some ways for the loss of RP via Leadership.
That leaves the people in category 2, who's majorly getting flipped off, along with their guilds. As for the whole "well it needs some tweaking and they promised to look into it". Buddy it needs a lot more than that, it needs a whole damn overhaul and it needs to get that done before it drops. Because I very much doubt those players are going to stick around for 6+ months or however long it takes for the devs to roll out a mod dedicated to addressing this. Given the usual lethargic way the devs addressed these things then by the time they get around to doing anythign at all about it most of us will be long gone from this game. This isn't about small to middle sized guilds getting everything now. The guilds in my Alliance are happy to be patient and build slowly, but all patience has its limits. There's "this is gonna take a while but we can do it" and then there's the endless, impossible slog we're looking at with these changes to the profession system and to AD generation. And the devs have shown no inclination or suggestions as to how to alleviate that apart from vaguely muttered words about "looking into it". Something that should be address with this mod already if they care about player retention that is.
As someone above pointed out - too lazy to go look for the exact person, sorry - it seems that the devs have forgotten why the crates were there, or I could add simply do not care. I'm beginning to think it's a combination of both as the issue of SH donations was brought up the moment these changes were announced and we've so far been fobbed off with some vague words about "looking into it" and "maybe addressing it later", showing that they had not at all considered what these changes would mean for Strongholds and their growth and that they're now stuck with a situation they don't know how to deal with so they simply choose not to. But those promises of later will not be good enough if later means more than a few weeks. By then the damage will be done and players will begin to leave. By the time they actually get anything changed those players will be gone and are unlikely to come back. That is, if they do so at all and all of this isn't just empty promises, after all they've been promising an SH mod for how long now with nothing to show for it.
At this point the only real reason I'm here is to watch the meltdown in the game post-November 6th. Given how few players frequent the forum and know the specifics of these changes the majority will be taken completely by surprise by all of this, so it promises to be pretty spectacular. I for one am grabbing popcorn and a front row seat, should be entertaining as hell if nothing else. Once that quiets down and the entertainment is at an end, I'm most likely to be gone as well.
P.S. I'm not a girl. I'm not a Vulcan or an elf. And I have a name you can use, my @ handle here if you don't know that. It'd be nice if some people could stop condescend.
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
I found a youtube by Rainer that answers a bit of my question. He showed that you could still donate your existing assets to the coffer at their existing rate of exchange. If this remains the case at go live I will be able to work out the optimal strategy for dealing with my inventory after the 6th as long as I do not click convert all, changing all the inventory to points.
He also briefly looked at the replacement for labor and the existing stronghold crates (AD and Gold).
Assuming any Guildies can be persuaded to engage with the system at all it looks like most should just use gather, trading in gathered resource for low amounts of 'labor' points, while the few with Forgehammers try their hand at gold crates. I do not have enough data to work out what will happen to guild production, and my option to launch preview server seems to have disappeared, but I expect it will be down quite a bit. Partly as players who previously donated avoid the new system and partly because productivity per individual looks lower. This is likely to be a downward spiral. As players who are still donating see targets stretching into the distance their motivation will drop.
Thanks but I still prefer my suggestion about making the Jubilee trader permanent. Or at least calling him a celebration trader and making him appear more frequently tied to the major periodic events.
No Condescending at all. I'm sorry if I upset you - with the Female Vulcan / Elf comment - it was just a comment referring to your Avatar. We once joked in STO maybe I should use a Vulcan / Elf avatar, and back then at least you thought that was funny and encouraged me to do so. 'Only because both have pointy ears!' We shared a laugh, but now you seem upset by it. I was trying to point out my avatar with pointy ears... ...I previously had a elf with owl on his shoulder, but you couldn't see the ears very well. Give them a week just to make some changes. Crates were only introduced this week, and they admitted or so I thought, they needed a few more changes. Maybe they'll also consider a Strongbox of Labor for Dragon Flight in the Stronghold update, or based at least what some of you are upset about possible sooner?
--
So many bitter &/or upset people... 'generally speaking' ...hope everyone gets sleep and wake up a little happier. I don't mean to offend anyone but I often believe a Please & Thank You goes a long way.
Even the 1-2 Master Crafters who are complaining, in this thread that success dropped from ~75% to 60%. Still realize without having to upgrade Master Craft V tier, you'll likely try selling new (Bis) 560 gear for 5-10m Diamonds or 100.00 to 200.00 a pop. Cause they still need to pay back than 2.5m Gond Forge Hammer they purchased 1-3 years ago.
[EDIT] Yes I realize some spent upwards of 20m Diamonds just to level Master Craft Tiers to V. Still most have likely more than made back those investments, and those who hadn't previously should easily be able to now.
Guess that Master Crafter who bid 50m Diamonds on that first Sgt A. Knox Companion, already had recovered his losses as well. Cause the average player does not have 1000.00 sitting around for a single companion.
If I had that kind of Diamonds, I likely wouldn't spend it like that.
Maybe I prefer my pints empty but bitter is more to my taste than the Professor Pangloss types who constantly urge the virtue of enduring being shafted and that all is for the best.
I tried to point out... give them a week just to make some changes. Crates were only introduced this week and they even admitted they likely need to make a few more changes &/or revisions to them.
--
So many bitter people... ...hope everyone gets sleep and wake up a little happier.
Actually Cryptic has shown in the past that the time to make any complaints/suggestions/point out errors is *while* they are still actively working on the code. Once the code is in, they will move on to the next thing, then they will say "we'll address that in a future module", then it moves on to "the person who wrote that code left and we don't understand it anymore" until you finally get to "we're replacing the whole thing with something worse because we don't like the way you guys are playing".
(And once again you are simply dismissing people's valid complaints with a condescending "Oh you're just cranky, take a nap!" Seriously dude just stop digging, you're in deep enough already)
I don't think it is 'bitter' to say "Cryptic, you had a system in place for years now, I bought Zen and I bought AD and I bought packages to support my use of that system. I am using that system productively. Now Cryptic says "But the way you use that system is bad and boring, we are taking it all away and giving you back 1/3 of what you had before. But hey, don't worry, because we will sell you all *new* stuff for the new system!"
That is blatant customer abuse, in my opinion, and rates a significantly stronger response than the mostly quite polite (although understandably upset) responses we have here.
The time to say "hey guys just wait let them make some changes it will all be cool I'm sure because the devs love us and want us to be happy" is after the changes go in. Because at that point you can whistle in the wind all you like, it won't change much.
Post edited by forcemajeure on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
So many bitter people... ...hope everyone gets sleep and wake up a little happier.
Even the 1-2 Master Crafters who are complaining, in this thread that success dropped from ~75% to 60% will likely have no whims selling their new 560 gear for 5-10m Diamonds or 100.00 to 200.00 a pop. Cause they still need to pay back than 2.5m Gond Forge Hammer they purchased 1-3 years ago.
Guess that Master Crafter who bid 50m Diamonds on that first Sgt A. Knox Companion, also still needs to recoup his losses as well. Cause the average player has 1000.00 sitting around for a single companion.
Wish I had that kind of insane Diamonds, but even if I did I likely wouldn't spend it like.
Here is the real thing surfacing up, it's envy and bitterness.
1. If you think that MW is such a printer of AD, unlock it too. It's easier than ever now, you can buy most of the starting chain of the unlocks for guild marks. 100% success chance. Or perhaps you don't have the patience to go far the maps, farm the guild marks, do all the tasks, fail a bit on the last one, repeat. Takes a bit of effort doesn't it? Yet the effort once was orders of magnitude higher.
2. You still don't get how it works, to get that closest average percent of success closest to now live, what is the investment I need to do?
3. No one will sell you MW for 5mil if the cost to craft is 20mil, how hard it is to understand ?
I tried to point out... give them a week just to make some changes. Crates were only introduced this week and they even admitted they likely need to make a few more changes &/or revisions to them.
--
So many bitter people... ...hope everyone gets sleep and wake up a little happier.
Actually Cryptic has shown in the past that the time to make any complaints/suggestions/point out errors is *while* they are still actively working on the code. Once the code is in, they will move on to the next thing, then they will say "we'll address that in a future module", then it moves on to "the person who wrote that code left and we don't understand it anymore" until you finally get to "we're replacing the whole thing with something worse because we don't like the way you guys are playing".
(And once again you are simply dismissing people's valid complaints with a condescending "Oh you're just cranky, take a nap!" Seriously dude just stop digging, you're in deep enough already)
I don't think it is 'bitter' to say "Cryptic, you had a system in place for years now, I bought Zen and I bought AD and I bought packages to support my use of that system. I am using that system productively. Now you say "But the way you use that system is bad and boring, we are taking it all away and giving you back 1/3 of what you had before. But hey, don't worry, because we will sell you all *new* stuff for the new system!"
That is blatant customer abuse, in my opinion, and rates a significantly stronger response than the mostly quite polite (although understandably upset) responses we have here.
The time to say "hey guys just wait let them make some changes it will all be cool I'm sure because the devs love us and want us to be happy" is after the changes go in. Because at that point you can whistle in the wind all you like, it won't change much.
Dont' get me wrong @forcemajeure I completely not disagreeing with you. But I'm not disrespecting people or being mean. I in fact I may agree with several points they are making, I just don't like the way they're trying to make them. I'm not saying "oh your just cranky, take a nap"
"So many bitter people... ...hope everyone gets sleep and wake up a little happier."
People are being overly negative, and aren't giving the DEVs time, to even make changes. But if everyone wants to rant away then - fine I'm not going to TRY and stop it anymore - I just wish you the best of luck, and hope it works out well for you then.
I found a youtube by Rainer that answers a bit of my question. He showed that you could still donate your existing assets to the coffer at their existing rate of exchange. If this remains the case at go live I will be able to work out the optimal strategy for dealing with my inventory after the 6th as long as I do not click convert all, changing all the inventory to points.
He also briefly looked at the replacement for labor and the existing stronghold crates (AD and Gold).
Assuming any Guildies can be persuaded to engage with the system at all it looks like most should just use gather, trading in gathered resource for low amounts of 'labor' points, while the few with Forgehammers try their hand at gold crates. I do not have enough data to work out what will happen to guild production, and my option to launch preview server seems to have disappeared, but I expect it will be down quite a bit. Partly as players who previously donated avoid the new system and partly because productivity per individual looks lower. This is likely to be a downward spiral. As players who are still donating see targets stretching into the distance their motivation will drop.
I found the video and am playing it now. In case I get interrupted (since I'm at work), does he discuss whether the existing crates will still have value and can be donated after the update comes out?
@strathkin I can't squelch/ignore you on the forums, apparently. So I would greatly appreciate it if you never reply to anything I post on the forums ever again, even if you have actually useful information. I no longer read more than a paragraph of your posts since they are too long, too rambling, and have too much color. Not to mention that I am just thoroughly fed up with your condescension, attitude that you're always right, and over-the-top optimism.
So many bitter people... ...hope everyone gets sleep and wake up a little happier.
Even the 1-2 Master Crafters who are complaining, in this thread that success dropped from ~75% to 60% will likely have no whims selling their new 560 gear for 5-10m Diamonds or 100.00 to 200.00 a pop. Cause they still need to pay back than 2.5m Gond Forge Hammer they purchased 1-3 years ago.
Guess that Master Crafter who bid 50m Diamonds on that first Sgt A. Knox Companion, also still needs to recoup his losses as well. Cause the average player has 1000.00 sitting around for a single companion.
Wish I had that kind of insane Diamonds, but even if I did I likely wouldn't spend it like.
Here is the real thing surfacing up, it's envy and bitterness.
1. If you think that MW is such a printer of AD, unlock it too. It's easier than ever now, you can buy most of the starting chain of the unlocks for guild marks. 100% success chance. Or perhaps you don't have the patience to go far the maps, farm the guild marks, do all the tasks, fail a bit on the last one, repeat. Takes a bit of effort doesn't it? Yet the effort once was orders of magnitude higher.
2. You still don't get how it works, to get that closest average percent of success closest to now live, what is the investment I need to do?
3. No one will sell you MW for 5mil if the cost to craft is 20mil, how hard it is to understand ?
I have unlocked it. I just honestly don't care to even do it, I dislike being turned into a Gatherer like an Artisan. I don't even know a single person who enjoys spending countless hours farming explorer's maps. My goodness if they allowed our Gathers to do it, I'd jump at the first opportunity and get back into it if they could farm those silly maps. I've in the past purchased 150-200+ if not way more of them, but I don't want to be spending every waking hour farming maps.
I seen so many Mastercrafter's spend every hour from Thursday to Monday morning, as they try to farm 200-300 maps of the 1500 to 3000 guild mark maps in various locations during a 2x event. It's not fun for nobody. I've done in the past before I finally said no more, that is enough for me! Honesty I don't know a single person that even enjoys that part of it. Cause my goodness who would not rather be running dungeons, doing things in the Stronghold, or so many other things with their friends.
That's the single biggest reason I think 95% of people don't even attempt it. And until they allow our Gatherer's to collect the explorer's maps for us I'm going to avoid it like the plague.
Though don't get me wrong @micky1p00 I'm happy you enjoy it, or at least enjoy the AD that it affords you. I also hope maybe they will in time also slightly revise or improve a few more recipes for you increasing the chances up from the 60% to maybe 65-70% range. I don't know if they will - but at least they gave something - whole new 560 gear to resell without even requiring advancing Master Craft any further.
But my fully upgraded Gond Artifact can sit unused. I'll just use it just for the Artifact it is, and the tool can mostly sit unused.
Post edited by strathkin on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Cause they still need to pay back than 2.5m Gond Forge Hammer they purchased 1-3 years ago.
Uhm....speaking as someone with rank 5 mastercraft in all professions, the cost of getting the Gond hammer is a minor part of the cost of getting Mastercraft to maximum.
I don't know what effect the success chance drop from 75% to ~60% (and not returning some materials on failure) will have, but I expect it will at least double the cost of MW items, maybe more.
@antok500#4237 and @micky1p00 Thanks. I'm hoping that any crates created in the existing system will still have value after the update comes out. I need to check that, but won't have time to do so until Friday night as I have to work longer hours today and tomorrow. If anyone has checked that they'll still be able to be donated and will share that information, I would greatly appreciate that.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
So many bitter people... ...hope everyone gets sleep and wake up a little happier.
Even the 1-2 Master Crafters who are complaining, in this thread that success dropped from ~75% to 60% will likely have no whims selling their new 560 gear for 5-10m Diamonds or 100.00 to 200.00 a pop. Cause they still need to pay back than 2.5m Gond Forge Hammer they purchased 1-3 years ago.
Guess that Master Crafter who bid 50m Diamonds on that first Sgt A. Knox Companion, also still needs to recoup his losses as well. Cause the average player has 1000.00 sitting around for a single companion.
Wish I had that kind of insane Diamonds, but even if I did I likely wouldn't spend it like.
Here is the real thing surfacing up, it's envy and bitterness.
1. If you think that MW is such a printer of AD, unlock it too. It's easier than ever now, you can buy most of the starting chain of the unlocks for guild marks. 100% success chance. Or perhaps you don't have the patience to go far the maps, farm the guild marks, do all the tasks, fail a bit on the last one, repeat. Takes a bit of effort doesn't it? Yet the effort once was orders of magnitude higher.
2. You still don't get how it works, to get that closest average percent of success closest to now live, what is the investment I need to do?
3. No one will sell you MW for 5mil if the cost to craft is 20mil, how hard it is to understand ?
I have unlocked it. I just honestly don't care to even do it cause my goodness I hate farming all the explorer's maps. My goodness spending all day Thursday, Friday Night, then Sat & Sun for 10 hours each day just to try to farm 150-300x is absolute insanity even with a guild with Explorer's Guild.
No thank you! I'll keep my sanity intact.
So you don't have the patience, yet you call people who do impatient ?
And wait, if you unlocked it, hence you are a MW, then you surely by your logic have million and millions of AD to spare..
You missed two questions, here they are again for your convenience:
I'm hoping that any crates created in the existing system will still have value after the update comes out. I need to check that, but won't have time to do so until Friday night as I have to work longer hours today and tomorrow. If anyone has checked that they'll still be able to be donated and will share that information, I would greatly appreciate that.
Cause they still need to pay back than 2.5m Gond Forge Hammer they purchased 1-3 years ago.
Uhm....speaking as someone with rank 5 mastercraft in all professions, the cost of getting the Gond hammer is a minor part of the cost of getting Mastercraft to maximum.
I don't know what effect the success chance drop from 75% to ~60% (and not returning some materials on failure) will have, but I expect it will at least double the cost of MW items, maybe more.
I understand. The Gond Hammer I realize is only one of the factor's.
My goodness as I just replied to @micky1p00 the biggest investment isn't even the AD required to fully level it. My goodness it's the massive time sink required to farming explorer's maps. I don't like being turned effectively into a Gatherer as my Artisan's should be doing that.
It's not a complaint - but I'm just not going to do it any more, I think that's the single biggest reason why 95% choose not to even do it.
@micky1p00 Thanks again! You're a life-saver! I don't even care about the GM value, honestly. I run so many SH quests for heroic shards, adventurer shards, and etc that I never really struggle to have GMs when I need or want them. I just care that the crates will still have value after the update comes out because I have crafted crates worth hundreds of thousands of surplus equipment and gems, each. (Been going as close to round-the-clock on 17 characters since the beginning of September as I can manage.)
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Though don't get me wrong @micky1p00 I'm happy you enjoy it, or at least enjoy the AD that it affords you. I also hope maybe they will in time also slightly revise or improve a few more recipes for you increasing the chances up from the 60% to maybe 65-70% range. I don't know if they will - but at least they gave something - whole new 560 gear to resell without even requiring advancing Master Craft any further.
But my fully upgraded Gond Artifact can sit unused. I'll just use it just for the Artifact it is, and the tool can mostly sit unused.
What AD? Why you assume I have AD from MW? You don't have any, so why the assumption that everyone else who have MW unlocked swimming in AD?
And still back to square one, doesn't need to further unlock doesn't mean I don't need to further invest, yet somehow you avoid this investment cost (or with the lack of that investment the proceeding failure rate, and their quantified valuem as compared to current state). So again I ask, to get back as closer to the same position as currently live server, even assuming without legendary tools, what is the investment needed? Or what is the loss if I choose not to invest?
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Cause they still need to pay back than 2.5m Gond Forge Hammer they purchased 1-3 years ago.
Uhm....speaking as someone with rank 5 mastercraft in all professions, the cost of getting the Gond hammer is a minor part of the cost of getting Mastercraft to maximum.
I don't know what effect the success chance drop from 75% to ~60% (and not returning some materials on failure) will have, but I expect it will at least double the cost of MW items, maybe more.
I understand. The Gond Hammer I realize is only one of the factor's.
My goodness as I just replied to @micky1p00 the biggest investment isn't even the AD required to fully level it. My goodness it's the massive time sink required to farming explorer's maps. I don't like being turned effectively into a Gatherer as my Artisan's should be doing that.
It's not a complaint - but I'm just not going to do it any more, I think that's the single biggest reason why 95% choose not to even do it.
But if MW crafting is so profitable, you can buy the regents and just craft.. Can't you ? Selling all those MW items for millions!
My goodness as I just replied to @micky1p00 the biggest investment isn't even the AD required to fully level it. My goodness it's the massive time sink required to farming explorer's maps. I don't like being turned effectively into a Gatherer as my Artisan's should be doing that.
So many bitter people... ...hope everyone gets sleep and wake up a little happier.
Even the 1-2 Master Crafters who are complaining, in this thread that success dropped from ~75% to 60% will likely have no whims selling their new 560 gear for 5-10m Diamonds or 100.00 to 200.00 a pop. Cause they still need to pay back than 2.5m Gond Forge Hammer they purchased 1-3 years ago.
Guess that Master Crafter who bid 50m Diamonds on that first Sgt A. Knox Companion, also still needs to recoup his losses as well. Cause the average player has 1000.00 sitting around for a single companion.
Wish I had that kind of insane Diamonds, but even if I did I likely wouldn't spend it like.
Here is the real thing surfacing up, it's envy and bitterness.
1. If you think that MW is such a printer of AD, unlock it too. It's easier than ever now, you can buy most of the starting chain of the unlocks for guild marks. 100% success chance. Or perhaps you don't have the patience to go far the maps, farm the guild marks, do all the tasks, fail a bit on the last one, repeat. Takes a bit of effort doesn't it? Yet the effort once was orders of magnitude higher.
2. You still don't get how it works, to get that closest average percent of success closest to now live, what is the investment I need to do?
3. No one will sell you MW for 5mil if the cost to craft is 20mil, how hard it is to understand ?
I have unlocked it. I just honestly don't care to even do it cause my goodness I hate farming all the explorer's maps. My goodness spending all day Thursday, Friday Night, then Sat & Sun for 10 hours each day just to try to farm 150-300x is absolute insanity even with a guild with Explorer's Guild.
No thank you! I'll keep my sanity intact.
So you don't have the patience, yet you call people who do impatient ?
And wait, if you unlocked it, hence you are a MW, then you surely by your logic have million and millions of AD to spare..
You missed two questions, here they are again for your convenience:
2. You still don't get how it works, to get that closest average percent of success closest to now live, what is the investment I need to do?
3. No one will sell you MW for 5mil if the cost to craft is 20mil, how hard it is to understand ?
I'm not calling you lazy, or impatient, but you seem to have no problems implying your lazy or impatient? Cause I've not certainly said that about you! I never made that claim anywhere? So who is making that claim? The only person who said anything even slightly to that effect was in fact you and only yourself. I was actually paying you a compliment! You have great focus!
But you can't even see when someone is trying to pay you a compliment. And then when I added I even hope for your sake they may re-consider in time the 60% chance up to 65-70% chance for Mastercraft. Yet the only thing you do is twist my comments around, and don't even acknowledge the fact I also trying to wish you well, when I said hope they do improve the crafting chances up from 60% to perhaps 65-70%. But not even so much as even a slight thank you, and it just completely falls on deaf ears? Can you even acknowledgeable when someone is paying you a compliment, and then even wishes you well in hoping your crafting chances are improved.
Yet again the only response is to misrepresent everything I'm saying, and twisting the things I say just to get a few cheap laughs at my expense.
I only said I choose not to do that. I in fact have done it like many others, I just said I don't want to continue doing that.
*sigh*
I don't really think helping really yours or anyone chances... ...still I try to remain hopeful. But I'm almost feeling sorry for you now!
Post edited by strathkin on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I'm not calling you lazy nor have I ever called you that, so was actually paying you a compliment, you turn that around again into an attack against me even when I'm trying to again pay you a compliment!
Please do NOT put words in my mouth.
Where I've said you called me lazy? You are the one putting words in my posts now. I am actually extremely lazy, but it has nothing to do with my patience, or the fact that I have MW and mainly crafted for guildies at cost/for materials (who in turn helped with the materials for the unlocks)
I was clearly referring to what you said repeatedly, there is nothing to interpret here:
You keep getting people liking your comments because you misrepresenting what I said. I only said I choose not to do that. I in fact have done it like many others, I just said I don't want to continue doing that. I commended you if you want and enjoy doing that. I even added I hope they do improve the chance of success for you to 65-70% yet nothing was even mentioned about that, it was completely ignored looking for the first opportunity to attack me again.
*sigh*
Nothing to misinterpret, it is you again ignore my simple questions. I didn't ask to increase the chance, nor I asked you to do so. Please read again what I wrote repeatedly.
Since people seem to misunderstand what I was trying to say.
People who use the crafting system today who are not Mastercrafters fall majorly into two categories, sometimes both at once: 1) Those who use it for RP points. 2) Those who use it to help their guilds grow through making stuff to donate.
The RP point people will be majorly compensated by the removal of many of the ways of getting RP from crafting by epic equipment now no longer giving salvage but RP points instead. Yes I know we can craft gems now, but the value vs time and effort consumed isn't comparable to the current system. Though I grant a lot of us will likely feel flipped off by the complete removal of Leadership with nothing there to replace it. No Gathering isn't the new Leadership, it's a totally new profession that has nothing to do with Leadership. But that be as it may, we're at least being compensated in some ways for the loss of RP via Leadership.
That leaves the people in category 2, who's majorly getting flipped off, along with their guilds. As for the whole "well it needs some tweaking and they promised to look into it". Buddy it needs a lot more than that, it needs a whole damn overhaul and it needs to get that done before it drops. Because I very much doubt those players are going to stick around for 6+ months or however long it takes for the devs to roll out a mod dedicated to addressing this. Given the usual lethargic way the devs addressed these things then by the time they get around to doing anythign at all about it most of us will be long gone from this game. This isn't about small to middle sized guilds getting everything now. The guilds in my Alliance are happy to be patient and build slowly, but all patience has its limits. There's "this is gonna take a while but we can do it" and then there's the endless, impossible slog we're looking at with these changes to the profession system and to AD generation. And the devs have shown no inclination or suggestions as to how to alleviate that apart from vaguely muttered words about "looking into it". Something that should be address with this mod already if they care about player retention that is.
As someone above pointed out - too lazy to go look for the exact person, sorry - it seems that the devs have forgotten why the crates were there, or I could add simply do not care. I'm beginning to think it's a combination of both as the issue of SH donations was brought up the moment these changes were announced and we've so far been fobbed off with some vague words about "looking into it" and "maybe addressing it later", showing that they had not at all considered what these changes would mean for Strongholds and their growth and that they're now stuck with a situation they don't know how to deal with so they simply choose not to. But those promises of later will not be good enough if later means more than a few weeks. By then the damage will be done and players will begin to leave. By the time they actually get anything changed those players will be gone and are unlikely to come back. That is, if they do so at all and all of this isn't just empty promises, after all they've been promising an SH mod for how long now with nothing to show for it.
At this point the only real reason I'm here is to watch the meltdown in the game post-November 6th. Given how few players frequent the forum and know the specifics of these changes the majority will be taken completely by surprise by all of this, so it promises to be pretty spectacular. I for one am grabbing popcorn and a front row seat, should be entertaining as hell if nothing else. Once that quiets down and the entertainment is at an end, I'm most likely to be gone as well.
P.S. I'm not a girl. I'm not a Vulcan or an elf. And I have a name you can use, my @ handle here if you don't know that. It'd be nice if some people could stop condescend.
Yes. Those in Category 2 are going to be pissed off. I am pissed off. I have worked on 14 of 26 toon's for full Leadership and Jewelcrafting. And was working on the additional ones too..until now.
Bought all necessary tools for level3 crafting for Gems. Now I hear no GEMS. No Labor Boxes? And no I'm not going to trade in my crafters for Labor.
Really!!! This is another slight of small guilds. I use Professions to help my guild. Labor, AD, GEMS and Gold. Labor is the biggest issue. Although GEMs are needed too. I cannot run both GEMS and INfluence in Temp Market. Again SMALL GUILD...
So Yes. I will move on... or more go back to DDO ( a real D&D game). No more VIP for me. Good thing this is before the 40% off Black Friday. Otherwise I might have spent another 300 or 400 bucks...
And if they are going to implement later... you don't implement a half fast Profession system... You already have one!!! All they needed to do was make the current system simpler, faster...
And Ilithyn is correct come Nov 6th... there will be an out cry over this. Most people dont follow forums!
Nov 6th Forums: Where did my GEMS, Labor boxes go... You heard it hear first.
I cannot run both GEMS and INfluence in Temp Market.
I was looking into what would be required to run the Assayer for gold, the Gemcutter for gems, and the Recruiter for influence all at the same time. The Assayer requires just over 20k gems to bring it to the SH. The Gemcutter requires less than 10k labor and generates just over 24k gems per week, assuming it never gets full. (Yeah ... right.) I would be running through almost 100k wood, metal, and stone (each) to bring all three of these buildings to the SH every week. I have a level 1 Milling Yard and an empty support plot. I think I'd have to build a Smelter first and level my guild as quick as I can in order to open another support plot to build the Mason's Guild. On top of that, I would need to level all three of those buildings to the highest level available for my guild in order to try to keep up. Finally, I would need to be racking out as much Labor (soon to be called Profession Resources, instead) in order to keep inviting them, too.
Cryptic is just lucky that I enjoy logistics puzzles....
Since people seem to misunderstand what I was trying to say.
People who use the crafting system today who are not Mastercrafters fall majorly into two categories, sometimes both at once: 1) Those who use it for RP points. 2) Those who use it to help their guilds grow through making stuff to donate.
The RP point people will be majorly compensated by the removal of many of the ways of getting RP from crafting by epic equipment now no longer giving salvage but RP points instead. Yes I know we can craft gems now, but the value vs time and effort consumed isn't comparable to the current system. Though I grant a lot of us will likely feel flipped off by the complete removal of Leadership with nothing there to replace it. No Gathering isn't the new Leadership, it's a totally new profession that has nothing to do with Leadership. But that be as it may, we're at least being compensated in some ways for the loss of RP via Leadership.
I'm not disagreeing with you, just wanted to point something out.
We are not being compensated for the loss of Leadership or of Leadership RP in any way. Leadership and Leadership Gold/Exp/RP generation are being entirely removed and we are, in effect, receiving nothing in return for it.
Cryptic has this issue (as do many game devs) where they have a product, and they treat it like a product, and they don't actually understand why or how their customers pay for (or play) that product.
You level Leadership (or any craft) for the 'competitive/relative advantage' it gives you. You spend a lot of time levelling leadership, you buy adventurers and heroes, you upgrade workers and gear, you spend months at it, and eventually you get some decent Gold/Exp/RP missions and some SH crates. This gives you a measurable benefit for your efforts. If everyone else got the same benefits for free, you wouldn't spend that effort.
The RP coming from Epic gear is not compensating/replacing Leadership for anything - everyone gets it, for free. Gathering profession is not compensating Leadership for anything - everyone who ever levelled any Craft is getting it, for free. Every other crafter in the game will have it. The RP-from-epics thing is about removing AD from the game, not about any compensation.
Anyone who spent time/resources levelling Leadership is getting it taken away, stolen, removed. You receive zero competitive/relative advantage for the efforts you put into Leadership. You will have nothing that everyone else does not receive - for free.
Apologies for the long explanation, I know you and others already get this. It's just to help clear the situation for those who think they are actually getting something in return for their efforts.
Comments
Also - do not forget that all assets would be bounded to character after a mod release - so all grandmaster will stuck to characters after a change
Good thing is that todays "labor" will be changed to "profession materials" and you can literally put everyting inside. So filling a coffer wont be as hard as I previously expected, unless you are new player with empty crafting inventory. Due to vide range of various materials you will possibly find a cost effective way to fill a coffer.
I had a narrower point. Will the epic items in my inventory be worth more (less/same as) to the stronghold coffer if donated before the 6th or after conversion?
Has anyone checked this?
As the item points values were calculated from AH data there is no direct trail back to the current coffer equivalence of 12,500 for an epic crafter.
People who use the crafting system today who are not Mastercrafters fall majorly into two categories, sometimes both at once:
1) Those who use it for RP points.
2) Those who use it to help their guilds grow through making stuff to donate.
The RP point people will be majorly compensated by the removal of many of the ways of getting RP from crafting by epic equipment now no longer giving salvage but RP points instead. Yes I know we can craft gems now, but the value vs time and effort consumed isn't comparable to the current system.
Though I grant a lot of us will likely feel flipped off by the complete removal of Leadership with nothing there to replace it. No Gathering isn't the new Leadership, it's a totally new profession that has nothing to do with Leadership. But that be as it may, we're at least being compensated in some ways for the loss of RP via Leadership.
That leaves the people in category 2, who's majorly getting flipped off, along with their guilds.
As for the whole "well it needs some tweaking and they promised to look into it". Buddy it needs a lot more than that, it needs a whole damn overhaul and it needs to get that done before it drops. Because I very much doubt those players are going to stick around for 6+ months or however long it takes for the devs to roll out a mod dedicated to addressing this. Given the usual lethargic way the devs addressed these things then by the time they get around to doing anythign at all about it most of us will be long gone from this game.
This isn't about small to middle sized guilds getting everything now. The guilds in my Alliance are happy to be patient and build slowly, but all patience has its limits. There's "this is gonna take a while but we can do it" and then there's the endless, impossible slog we're looking at with these changes to the profession system and to AD generation. And the devs have shown no inclination or suggestions as to how to alleviate that apart from vaguely muttered words about "looking into it". Something that should be address with this mod already if they care about player retention that is.
As someone above pointed out - too lazy to go look for the exact person, sorry - it seems that the devs have forgotten why the crates were there, or I could add simply do not care. I'm beginning to think it's a combination of both as the issue of SH donations was brought up the moment these changes were announced and we've so far been fobbed off with some vague words about "looking into it" and "maybe addressing it later", showing that they had not at all considered what these changes would mean for Strongholds and their growth and that they're now stuck with a situation they don't know how to deal with so they simply choose not to.
But those promises of later will not be good enough if later means more than a few weeks. By then the damage will be done and players will begin to leave. By the time they actually get anything changed those players will be gone and are unlikely to come back. That is, if they do so at all and all of this isn't just empty promises, after all they've been promising an SH mod for how long now with nothing to show for it.
At this point the only real reason I'm here is to watch the meltdown in the game post-November 6th. Given how few players frequent the forum and know the specifics of these changes the majority will be taken completely by surprise by all of this, so it promises to be pretty spectacular. I for one am grabbing popcorn and a front row seat, should be entertaining as hell if nothing else.
Once that quiets down and the entertainment is at an end, I'm most likely to be gone as well.
P.S. I'm not a girl. I'm not a Vulcan or an elf. And I have a name you can use, my @ handle here if you don't know that. It'd be nice if some people could stop condescend.
He also briefly looked at the replacement for labor and the existing stronghold crates (AD and Gold).
Assuming any Guildies can be persuaded to engage with the system at all it looks like most should just use gather, trading in gathered resource for low amounts of 'labor' points, while the few with Forgehammers try their hand at gold crates. I do not have enough data to work out what will happen to guild production, and my option to launch preview server seems to have disappeared, but I expect it will be down quite a bit. Partly as players who previously donated avoid the new system and partly because productivity per individual looks lower. This is likely to be a downward spiral. As players who are still donating see targets stretching into the distance their motivation will drop.
No Condescending at all. I'm sorry if I upset you - with the Female Vulcan / Elf comment - it was just a comment referring to your Avatar. We once joked in STO maybe I should use a Vulcan / Elf avatar, and back then at least you thought that was funny and encouraged me to do so. 'Only because both have pointy ears!' We shared a laugh, but now you seem upset by it. I was trying to point out my avatar with pointy ears... ...I previously had a elf with owl on his shoulder, but you couldn't see the ears very well. Give them a week just to make some changes. Crates were only introduced this week, and they admitted or so I thought, they needed a few more changes. Maybe they'll also consider a Strongbox of Labor for Dragon Flight in the Stronghold update, or based at least what some of you are upset about possible sooner?
--
So many bitter &/or upset people... 'generally speaking' ...hope everyone gets sleep and wake up a little happier.
I don't mean to offend anyone but I often believe a Please & Thank You goes a long way.
Even the 1-2 Master Crafters who are complaining, in this thread that success dropped from ~75% to 60%. Still realize without having to upgrade Master Craft V tier, you'll likely try selling new (Bis) 560 gear for 5-10m Diamonds or 100.00 to 200.00 a pop. Cause they still need to pay back than 2.5m Gond Forge Hammer they purchased 1-3 years ago.
[EDIT] Yes I realize some spent upwards of 20m Diamonds just to level Master Craft Tiers to V. Still most have likely more than made back those investments, and those who hadn't previously should easily be able to now.
Guess that Master Crafter who bid 50m Diamonds on that first Sgt A. Knox Companion, already had recovered his losses as well. Cause the average player does not have 1000.00 sitting around for a single companion.
If I had that kind of Diamonds, I likely wouldn't spend it like that.
(And once again you are simply dismissing people's valid complaints with a condescending "Oh you're just cranky, take a nap!" Seriously dude just stop digging, you're in deep enough already)
I don't think it is 'bitter' to say "Cryptic, you had a system in place for years now, I bought Zen and I bought AD and I bought packages to support my use of that system. I am using that system productively. Now Cryptic says "But the way you use that system is bad and boring, we are taking it all away and giving you back 1/3 of what you had before. But hey, don't worry, because we will sell you all *new* stuff for the new system!"
That is blatant customer abuse, in my opinion, and rates a significantly stronger response than the mostly quite polite (although understandably upset) responses we have here.
The time to say "hey guys just wait let them make some changes it will all be cool I'm sure because the devs love us and want us to be happy" is after the changes go in. Because at that point you can whistle in the wind all you like, it won't change much.
1. If you think that MW is such a printer of AD, unlock it too. It's easier than ever now, you can buy most of the starting chain of the unlocks for guild marks. 100% success chance. Or perhaps you don't have the patience to go far the maps, farm the guild marks, do all the tasks, fail a bit on the last one, repeat. Takes a bit of effort doesn't it? Yet the effort once was orders of magnitude higher.
2. You still don't get how it works, to get that closest average percent of success closest to now live, what is the investment I need to do?
3. No one will sell you MW for 5mil if the cost to craft is 20mil, how hard it is to understand ?
It has nothing to do with bitterness or anything like that - its pure experience with Cryptic ways of slowing problems (if there is any)
"So many bitter people... ...hope everyone gets sleep and wake up a little happier."
People are being overly negative, and aren't giving the DEVs time, to even make changes. But if everyone wants to rant away then - fine I'm not going to TRY and stop it anymore - I just wish you the best of luck, and hope it works out well for you then.
Professor Pangloss lol.
I seen so many Mastercrafter's spend every hour from Thursday to Monday morning, as they try to farm 200-300 maps of the 1500 to 3000 guild mark maps in various locations during a 2x event. It's not fun for nobody. I've done in the past before I finally said no more, that is enough for me! Honesty I don't know a single person that even enjoys that part of it. Cause my goodness who would not rather be running dungeons, doing things in the Stronghold, or so many other things with their friends.
That's the single biggest reason I think 95% of people don't even attempt it. And until they allow our Gatherer's to collect the explorer's maps for us I'm going to avoid it like the plague.
Though don't get me wrong @micky1p00 I'm happy you enjoy it, or at least enjoy the AD that it affords you. I also hope maybe they will in time also slightly revise or improve a few more recipes for you increasing the chances up from the 60% to maybe 65-70% range. I don't know if they will - but at least they gave something - whole new 560 gear to resell without even requiring advancing Master Craft any further.
But my fully upgraded Gond Artifact can sit unused. I'll just use it just for the Artifact it is, and the tool can mostly sit unused.
I don't know what effect the success chance drop from 75% to ~60% (and not returning some materials on failure) will have, but I expect it will at least double the cost of MW items, maybe more.
And wait, if you unlocked it, hence you are a MW, then you surely by your logic have million and millions of AD to spare..
You missed two questions, here they are again for your convenience:
Preview:
(from memory it's the same as live, the gems 100%, but I can't check the GMs value do to being capped, I assume it's the same too)
My goodness as I just replied to @micky1p00 the biggest investment isn't even the AD required to fully level it. My goodness it's the massive time sink required to farming explorer's maps. I don't like being turned effectively into a Gatherer as my Artisan's should be doing that.
It's not a complaint - but I'm just not going to do it any more, I think that's the single biggest reason why 95% choose not to even do it.
And still back to square one, doesn't need to further unlock doesn't mean I don't need to further invest, yet somehow you avoid this investment cost (or with the lack of that investment the proceeding failure rate, and their quantified valuem as compared to current state). So again I ask, to get back as closer to the same position as currently live server, even assuming without legendary tools, what is the investment needed? Or what is the loss if I choose not to invest?
But you can't even see when someone is trying to pay you a compliment. And then when I added I even hope for your sake they may re-consider in time the 60% chance up to 65-70% chance for Mastercraft. Yet the only thing you do is twist my comments around, and don't even acknowledge the fact I also trying to wish you well, when I said hope they do improve the crafting chances up from 60% to perhaps 65-70%. But not even so much as even a slight thank you, and it just completely falls on deaf ears? Can you even acknowledgeable when someone is paying you a compliment, and then even wishes you well in hoping your crafting chances are improved.
Yet again the only response is to misrepresent everything I'm saying, and twisting the things I say just to get a few cheap laughs at my expense.
I only said I choose not to do that. I in fact have done it like many others, I just said I don't want to continue doing that.
*sigh*
I don't really think helping really yours or anyone chances... ...still I try to remain hopeful. But I'm almost feeling sorry for you now!
I am actually extremely lazy, but it has nothing to do with my patience, or the fact that I have MW and mainly crafted for guildies at cost/for materials (who in turn helped with the materials for the unlocks)
I was clearly referring to what you said repeatedly, there is nothing to interpret here:
It is clearly says that you think that Master Crafters are lacking patience, and you repeated it several times.
Nothing to misinterpret, it is you again ignore my simple questions. I didn't ask to increase the chance, nor I asked you to do so.
Please read again what I wrote repeatedly.
and Jewelcrafting. And was working on the additional ones too..until now.
Bought all necessary tools for level3 crafting for Gems. Now I hear no GEMS. No Labor Boxes? And no I'm not going to trade in my crafters for Labor.
Really!!! This is another slight of small guilds. I use Professions to help my guild. Labor, AD, GEMS and Gold.
Labor is the biggest issue. Although GEMs are needed too. I cannot run both GEMS and INfluence in Temp Market.
Again SMALL GUILD...
So Yes. I will move on... or more go back to DDO ( a real D&D game). No more VIP for me. Good thing this is before the 40% off Black Friday. Otherwise I might have spent another 300 or 400 bucks...
And if they are going to implement later... you don't implement a half fast Profession system... You already have one!!!
All they needed to do was make the current system simpler, faster...
And Ilithyn is correct come Nov 6th... there will be an out cry over this. Most people dont follow forums!
Nov 6th Forums: Where did my GEMS, Labor boxes go... You heard it hear first.
Cryptic is just lucky that I enjoy logistics puzzles....
We are not being compensated for the loss of Leadership or of Leadership RP in any way. Leadership and Leadership Gold/Exp/RP generation are being entirely removed and we are, in effect, receiving nothing in return for it.
Cryptic has this issue (as do many game devs) where they have a product, and they treat it like a product, and they don't actually understand why or how their customers pay for (or play) that product.
You level Leadership (or any craft) for the 'competitive/relative advantage' it gives you. You spend a lot of time levelling leadership, you buy adventurers and heroes, you upgrade workers and gear, you spend months at it, and eventually you get some decent Gold/Exp/RP missions and some SH crates. This gives you a measurable benefit for your efforts. If everyone else got the same benefits for free, you wouldn't spend that effort.
The RP coming from Epic gear is not compensating/replacing Leadership for anything - everyone gets it, for free. Gathering profession is not compensating Leadership for anything - everyone who ever levelled any Craft is getting it, for free. Every other crafter in the game will have it. The RP-from-epics thing is about removing AD from the game, not about any compensation.
Anyone who spent time/resources levelling Leadership is getting it taken away, stolen, removed. You receive zero competitive/relative advantage for the efforts you put into Leadership. You will have nothing that everyone else does not receive - for free.
Apologies for the long explanation, I know you and others already get this. It's just to help clear the situation for those who think they are actually getting something in return for their efforts.