Over time a number of MMO's have gone the route of "Corporate Casual Concepts" ("CCC's"), things that appeal to/favor "casual players" (CP's) (those that play around an hour or so per session?) and as a result often enough introduces "effort inflation" (EI), this is where players that play more get less for their efforts.
Even if a player got 35k from RQ's via first run bonuses that still leaves 65k to be refined through repeat runs (at a much lower return, EI) and or salvage which requires repeat runs anyway and or repeatedly completing HE's for protector seals to trade for items to salvage all which takes time. The time it would take to try and get the remaining 65k essentially wouldn't be worth the effort, especially on a daily basis.
The daily bonus being available on each character rather than only one would help soften the blow from the 100k RAD refine cap, that way players that farm can reach/get closer to the cap without having to provide considerably more effort/time at less return just to try and accrue what they could before. Currently it will take a player about 7 additional hours (about 8.5 total, somewhat less is salvage is taken into consideration) via RQ's to double the 35k granted from the account daily bonus which is quite ridiculous/excessive to endure for such a small gain, especially daily.
It would be similar to working 1.5 hrs for $20 and having to work 8.5 to make $40.
SUGGESTION Since the cap system seems to be set in stone allow the daily bonuses to be obtained on multiple characters, that way the cap is still in place, AD generation is limited as intended and players that farm can still do so and not feel as shafted by having to play x amount of hours just for a tad bit more AD.
SUGGESTIONS Since utilizing multiple characters for AD has taken a significant hit how about things like: - "Account invoking" where players can invoke on all of their characters simultaneously. If it is going to take more time to generate AD at least free up time by not requiring players to continually switch characters to invoke. - "Account-wide AD", the Zen balance is available to all characters, AD shouldn't be any different.
(Even if the system is changed to allow multiple characters to receive the daily bonus the above will still be quite useful.)
Pre-Mod 14 in about 30 minutes with VIP CP's could generate about 33k via running RQ's (normal and skirmish) on 2 characters (w/o VIP it would be around 29k). In Mod 14 the same 30 minutes would only grant around 20k AD... not to mention those that play less will have very little if any bonus RAD (BRAD) because of the number of times they would be able to invoke...
CP's pre-Mod 14 for the most part weren't generating "much" AD in the first place due to the amount of time they play so the ADX (Astral Diamond Exchange)/AH prices effected them "less" because it took them time to get the AD for Zen item/AH purchases anyway because they would generate less AD at a time.
In Mod 14 players that play less are having their spending/earning potential equated to those that play considerably more because the additional time spent by those that play more does not positively reflect/scale in the AD they generate...
Even if ADX/AH prices go down the time it takes to generate AD will go up, considerably especially for players that want to generate more outside of the one-off daily bonuses/as much as they were before. With the 100k cap and one character daily bonus it will essentially be a similar situation as before, just different numbers and much more effort necessary to try and get close to what could be gained pre-Mod 14...
- With Mod 14 1.5 hrs of RQ's will grant around 35k AD, let's assume the ADX dropped to 250, it would take a player about 7 days to get 1k Zen. - Pre-Mod 14 it would take a player 1.5 hours via about 5 characters and about 7 days to get 1k Zen even if the ADX was at 500...
The situation is essentially the same, the difference being players that play more get less for their efforts while those that play less will still be hovering around the same amount of AD they generated before...
In about 30 minutes via 2 characters pre-Mod 14 a player could generate about 27k AD, run another character (now about 45 minutes total) and the AD goes up to about 40k, in Mod 14 players could get about 20k AD in about 30-40 minutes on 1 character, add another 15 minute run and 20k goes to 21k, or add a 25 minute run and that 20k goes to 22k...
If newer/casual players want/need to be given a AD "boost" how about newer accounts get a depleting new account RAD bonus that stacks with the BRAD from invoking and accounts that don't refine RAD as often gain a "rested" RAD refining bonus (similar to bonus XP gained while being logged off in World of Warcraft) that stacks with the other bonuses?
Don't negate the earning potential of players that play considerably more to try and suit the environment to those that play much less, giving CP's a boost essentially doesn't harm the game, bringing everyone else down to their level does. If a player plays 2x's as long as another (or more) and their AD generation is only "slightly" more via the same means that's a problem.
We did pull data on how much of our player base earns over 100k RAD on any given day before implementing this change, and that percentage is lower single digits. That number goes even lower when looking at how many accounts earn over 100k RAD every single day.
The point being that the availability to do was there, the data showing that a number of players did so at all should have been a statement within itself rather than "fewer people are doing it than not so let's put a ceiling on RAD refining". On days/at times where a player has more time to play the effort to generate AD via Mod 14 is significantly lack luster, who wants to spent over 8 hours daily just to "try" and double 35k AD via RQ's? More so, why put that on players that play more?
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I just want to say: If you were running random normals on trash alts to make AD, you were losing out. You were spending way more time per AD than you needed to.
The better tricks are mostly not good any more. But there *were* way better tricks.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
Last 2 days I've easily hit the daily cap for refining without even trying. I don't have alts filled with salvageables, either.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
How about once the 100K rAD has been refined, there is an cooldown of 3hrs before that account can refine another 100k. Once that has been hitted as well, the account can only refine the next 100K after 4hrs. And after that 5hrs cooldown etc.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,424Arc User
How about once the 100K rAD has been refined, there is an cooldown of 3hrs before that account can refine another 100k. Once that has been hitted as well, the account can only refine the next 100K after 4hrs. And after that 5hrs cooldown etc.
What is the point? Most people does not even use the button to refine. There is a daily auto-refine in the game. I have not touched that button for years. What you proposed basically is to raise the cap to 400K or more.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Well, i didn't care much about refining rAD to the limit before, but now i'm allways making sure to reach the 100k and more every.single.day.!
And i doubt, that i'm the only one playing like this these days... not to mention that Jubilee and Ravenloft were/are heaven for creating and leveling/gearing up new characters on alt. accounts.
It'll be interesting to see what the Devs try next...
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
How about once the 100K rAD has been refined, there is an cooldown of 3hrs before that account can refine another 100k. Once that has been hitted as well, the account can only refine the next 100K after 4hrs. And after that 5hrs cooldown etc.
Because too much AD has been entering into the economy and not enough of it has been leaving.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
What is the point? Most people does not even use the button to refine. There is a daily auto-refine in the game. I have not touched that button for years.
The point is to slow the refinement process and not halt it altogether and only reward those clicking the button manually.
Because too much AD has been entering into the economy and not enough of it has been leaving.
You want player to spend ADs willingly. I already suggested using ADs for rerolling chest and also spending ADs to unbind items in chest (balanced by different refinement cost and upgrade chance for unbound/BtA/BtC items).
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,424Arc User
What is the point? Most people does not even use the button to refine. There is a daily auto-refine in the game. I have not touched that button for years.
The point is to slow the refinement process and not halt it altogether and only reward those clicking the button manually.
That just force everyone to click the button now and then as 'default' action like invocation. One extra step now and then. What is the point? Just ask them to raise the cap would be a lot more straight forward without any programming requirement and without annoying users.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Help them out with what? Buying RP? VIP? Campaigns? Enchantments? Marks? Possibly more so, how will Mod 14 help them differently/better than before? Those things cost AD, a hell of a lot of it
Low play time equals a low amount of: - RP to upgrade items (enchantments, artifacts, etc.) - BRAD (from invoking) - AD in general - Campaign/character progression - Etc.
The Mod 14 RAD cap system is equivalent to moving the finish line closer (lowering ADX rates/AH prices), adding a base amount of weighted clothing to all the runners (RAD cap) and then adding more weight (one character daily bonus which slows AD generation even more) to the faster runners (plays that play considerably more).
If CP's are still slow/slower to gain AD how does the Mod 14 system help them? Supposed lower prices with slower AD generation/gains is essentially the SAME thing...
If it has been considered that too much AD is being generated dabble with AD sinks FIRST or apply the cap and leave the generation speed the same instead of also severely slowing it down as well (daily bonus available on only one character) and try out AD sinks later.
For the most part CP's aren't the frontrunners in regard to: - high rank Guild leadership - character progression - campaign completion - finding bugs - helping shape class balance - etc.
players that put in considerable amounts of time are though because the amount of time they put in helps allow them to experience things those things to considerable degrees, players that play a few hours a week more than likely aren't going to experience those things to those extents. The previous statement(s) isn't to take shots at CP's, it's the perceived reality of the situation as a whole in regard to Mod 14 penalizing players that play more to compensate those that play less.
This move doesn't seem to be grounded in what it has been proposed, it seems to be shrouded in selling more Zen while being coated in helping CP's and on the back end behind the scenes making the additional time a number of players put in above the "average" worth far less.
As a forum user that tends to give the publisher/developers of a game the benefit of the doubt to promote discussions those days are essentially over in regard to Neverwinter after witnessing players get penalized for playing the game "too much" though while money was being spent how much they played wasn't a problem but soon after they stopped spending the amount played was considered an issue...
For F2P players to make "considerable" progress it is going to take well over "average" amounts of time to do so (especially with the Mod 14 one character daily bonus) and if doing so brings about consequences what's the point? Players should be able to do as they please within the rules and if they are spending considerable amounts of time playing a game when they could be doing things in real life that actually matter their time/efforts should reflect what they have/get in-game instead of being scaled down to that of CP's...
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
That just force everyone to click the button now and then as 'default' action like invocation. One extra step now and then. What is the point? Just ask them to raise the cap would be a lot more straight forward without any programming requirement and without annoying users.
That would be annoying. Then the whinos would be back in a week begging the devs to automate it because they keep forgetting to push the button.
Since I am a casual player (less than 3hrs a day) can some1 spell out for me how to make 100K a day with nine players. Also I hate running dungeons that require 10k plus IL with players less than 2k. Please add a lower IL random dungeon choice. And why not be honest and say the less AD one can make limits how much zen can be exchanged. thus forcing players to buy zen with real money....
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
These devs are unbelievable. Whats the point of these feedback threads with 34 pages if they do not listen nor change anything.
You assume they don't listen/read the forum. You also assume that a change happens immediately.
They read. They have meetings and discuss. The changes take time. Usually months.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Since I am a casual player (less than 3hrs a day) can some1 spell out for me how to make 100K a day with nine players.
If it were quite possible to generate 100k AD in Mod 14 in less, the same or even slightly more than pre-Mod 14 a number of the complaints/negative feedback probably wouldn't be here in this thread/on the forums about the cap/speed of AD generating in Mod 14.
With 9 characters, Pre-Mod 14? It's possible though in Mod 14 even with 9+ characters players for the most part probably won't be reaching "half" the cap in 3 hours (after BRAD is depleted), let alone less play time without ample preparation such as stocking BRAD/salvage, even then it takes time to protector seal/salvage drop farm and characters only get a little less than 4k BRAD per reset. Hitting 100k daily in Mod 14 will be quite the chore and take an excessive amount of time to do compared to pre-Mod 14 especially since BRAD will be essentially nonexistent and the daily bonuses currently can only be obtained on one character.
It will probably take around 1.5 hrs to complete the LQ, IQ and AQ (35k)(less time with shorter content/higher ilvl players actively participating), and the remaining 65k will be hell to generate in another 1.5 hrs especially w/o BRAD.
And why not be honest and say the less AD one can make limits how much zen can be exchanged. thus forcing players to buy zen with real money....
Everything looks good except the "thus forcing players to buy zen with real money" part, players still don't have to buy Zen though it is true they may be inclined to do so which certainly and reasonably seems to be the agenda or at least part of it.
It doesn't take a person from Cryptic or the development team to point out or draw logical conclusions from the effects of less AD players can generate. It more than likely wouldn't be admitted by them anyway, that would be detrimental though coating the means of trying to entice more Zen purchases in something else like helping lower the ADX rates and AH prices to mask it on the other hand makes sense... Not stating that more Zen purchases is the only goal but willing to bet that it is in there and not a small part of it either.
What's even crazier is when changes like this come about or players simply dedicate more time playing to help compensate/progress faster they run the risk of losing their account for playing "too much", how's that for contradiction?...
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I think the two changes, max 100k refined per day and account and the new RQ-system might just kill this game in the long run. Hopefully the devs read and change things soon, before its to late and people have found another MMO to play.
HAMSTER over grinding players for casual players in a game which the whole point is grinding is a death sentence.
I only play a couple of hours a day, and not even each day. I have 8 toons, one of each class to play different styles and to learn how other classes work. The 4 main toons are about 15k IL and the other 4 about 11k
Is relatively easy to hit the 100k refinement account limit, and if I don't play, I don't feel like I am missing out much. With the previous version of Random Queues, at some point there was a chore of playing queues in all of them to make the most of it, hitting around 300k a day, but spending too much time on that, and there was the frustration on days where I could not produce as much.
Is a game, and is supposed to be enjoyable, not a chore. Ideally, I would love to get rewarded for the things that I like to play.
I spend money on the game, but more likely for convenient things, like VIP, bank slots, the dragonborn pack, or the SKT campaign buyout for the alts (not doing the campaign again). I understand that even if is a free game, needs to be funded for it to continue. I see it more like "try first, and if you like it, fund it to keep it going". Just hope the company that runs it doesn't get too greedy looking for revenue that makes the game expensive.
I just wish that there were other ways to meet the limit other than the daily RQ. Some suggestions: - Bring up the chances of RAD for overflow levels. This could encourage players to run content again instead of just queues - Have the RQ limit by week instead of by day. By this way, casual players can still get bonus when they can play through the week, even if is just on the weekend. - Bring salvageable items to other areas besides Barovia. Is nice that the mobs drop equipment that is sometimes better than yours, or is salvageable. This would encourage players to come back to the old areas for either the equipment itself, or the salvage. - More weekly quests with the RAD rewards like the ones in Dread Ring, Shandar, Underdark ...
I would reiterate some comments found here, that I would like as well: - Common RAD and AD pool, like the ZEN is now. Is a nice touch to bring it to the bank, but would be much nicer to have it shared. - Common Bonus RAD, makes little sense to have each character with bonus when the refinement is shared - Capability to invoke in all the alts. Even if I am not playing with the other 7 characters, is a "chore" to change to each one just to invoke.
The way that I see it, should be relatively simple to get RAD in a couple of hours, running almost any part of the content, being RQ, campaigns, quests and so on. If someone spends more time, has alternatives like hunts, enchantment stones and so on to get additional AD through selling them
You even took the AD drops from the hidden bags that drop from the Tymora enchantments, REALLY? I cant begin to tell you how much this SUCKS and i will probally leave the game because of it. Oh and the random ques are aweful as well, i dont do epic dungeons because they are too much fro most of my toons and now that you have severely reduced my chances of ever getting any good gear cause i cant make any frilling AD anymore I wont be getting any better. BUT i will wait a couple of weeks but only because i love my guild and i hope this horrable mess gets fixed or iam going else where. There are other games you know, we dont have to just play Neverwinter! Really stupid move!
I got four toons and since patch day, I already got two 30K AD reward from overflow XP. I don't know if I just got lucky or if the drop rate was increased.
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lordgio1984Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 17Arc User
edited July 2018
Hi all, guys I am experiencing a feeling of discomfort and boredom in the game, after the new module has gone live. The new content is nice and I really appreciate it, but all the positive aspects you introduced in this module have been moved to the background by the cap on the rADs refinement. Well, let's come to what happened to me. After the new module went live, first of all I tried the new changes on the random queues. I did some random low dungeons (I got a kessell on the first day, eTOS on the second one), and everything went smooth. The tragedy happens on the advanced random queues. Those queues are full of low level characters grinding for ADs (and some good items to drop) and hoping for higher players to carry them trough endgame contents. I personally understand that people want to grow and therefore they try the endgame contents without the required minimal skills to face them, but parties with a majority of 11-12k characters will never close dungeons like mSP, FBI or mSVA, even if they put their best effort. And here it is what happens in the majority of the cases. After a lot of wasted time, people accusing each other, people screaming that 11K toons should NEVER join mSP, kicks, requests of reinforcements where the new entering players are even worse... Well, after all this, usually the party decides to leave the queue: after all this stress, players grab in their hands the most absolute nothing. You introduced the advanced queues as something "challenging", I found them "frustrating" instead, both for low players that for higher players. Nobody wants to waste time after something totally unpredictable, with a very high chance to fail: this will result in a gradual drop of the number of players using this feature. At least you should raise the IL cap to 13K for endgame contents. But this is the lesser evil in this new module: honestly I find that the limit on rADs refinement is the worst thing you could ever introduce in this game. Ok: as you stated, casual players and low level players will have a benefit from this changings because they will have access to a higher amount of ADs per day (100K now, instead of the 24K/36K we had when I started playing) and therefore, this will grant them a good amount of richness to reach a good level in a reasonable time. But times will come when the daily 100K of ADs won't be enough anymore to grow. Pets to be bought or upgraded (we need 1M of ADs if we haven't the companion tokens, to upgrade a pet to legendary rank: that is, 10 days of farming for each pet), enchantments to be upgraded (marks, refinement points, enchanting stones, preservation wards and coalescent wards for the 1% upgrades), mounts, equipments (especially the ones who need to be upgraded, like artifacts, weapons, necks and belts). A legendary mount has an average cost of 11 Millions of ADs: this means that (unless you don't drop something valuable from dungeons) it will take at least 4 months to buy one, and you will have to gather ADs for all the time, spending even one of them for other stuff is strictly forbidden, otherwise the target will become more and more a Chimaera. Considering that the average time between two modules is about three months, buying a legendary mount implies that you won't do anything for an entire module... it's quite choking, don't you think? People will start finding the game frustrating, if they have to struggle for days and weeks to see a minimal upgrade on their characters; buying Zens won't be their first option, but many of them will gradually abandon the game; we're always talking about casual free players, that are for sure less dedicated to Neverwinter and won't think twice before jumping into another MMORPG. And let's see what happens to old dedicated players like me. I play everyday and I have time to do it. I have two 18K characters (DC and CW) and a 13K GF and I'm mainly a farmer, even if I've done some Zen purchases (when purchasing them was still worth it) during my three year "career" here in Neverwinter. I love running dungeons and maybe this is the main reason that encouraged me playing NW for all this time. Till last week, I had an average daily income of 220-250K ADs (not counting the random sellable drops), and I was sure I could use the entire amount of my daily earnings for my growth: I was also able to buy Zens via ZAX, for personal use (mainly services, preservations, keys when i get the discount) and not to speculate on Zen market items as many do. Actually i can reach 100k in a very short time (a couple of dungeons and some hunts are enough) and, after refining them, all the extra rADs are totally useless: as I actually play everyday, all the extra rADs are finishing in a huge (daily-increasing) mountain of useless richness I will hardly drain. Let's consider that, 4 days after the release, I already sit on about 500k of rADs, and this amount will raise more and more... I don't even dare to imagine how many rADs I will have in a month or two! This has several negative effects. First of all, I've stopped running dungeons: there's no point in doing it actually, and even if I love dungeoning, I simply won't do it if I cannot enjoy the fruits of my game. Where's the old rule stating that the more you play, the more you grow? ? The in-game time of a dedicated player is totally different from the time a casual player spends playing, and putting them on the same level is simply discouraging to even play more than one hour or two, let's figure out if this state of facts can improve our desire to invest money on our characters. The lost of interest in dungeoning had a severe impact on my moral and my trill to the game. After running a couple of dungeons, doing the dailies and hunting, I am not able to find a point to do something else in the game, then I simply log out. Before this module I was happy to jump into the game... now I'm bored, even the smallest things seem to become huge rocks to move, and I have no reason to do them. From what I've heard, this feeling of frustration and uselessness isn't so rare among players. I understand your need to increase your money income from Zen purchases, but starving players to "encourage" them to shop is not the right way. You should, instead, rework the Zen Store to make its items more desirable (for example, why should I buy an epic mount for 3500Zen -that is, 1,75 millions of ADs- when i can buy the same mount for 150k on AH? ); make offers on purchases; raise the amount of Zen you get for a basic purchase... people have to be tempted, not forced to shop! Moreover, this cap makes the time required to reach targets too long even for old players, generating frustration and lost of interest for the game: and these are not encouragements to shop, but to stop. I still hope you can find a compromise, and modify this state of things as soon and better as possible. Even raising the cap to 200k could be an amicable way to make people accept it. At least, we wouldn't feel so chocked as we are feeling now, and farming dungeons would become again funny, challenging and with an objective to reach: exactly as it was before. I'm sorry for the lenght and thanks for reading. Greetings
First off you lure us all into spending zen on character slots, are we getting that back now that we have no use whatsoever for alts?
Second, i can live with the 100k AD limit per account, dunno if it should be 100 or 200 or 400, that is not important, what i do find worrying is the massive nerf you did to bonuses for running random dailies. Before 9k for a first random per character, now 9k for first character per account. This needs to be remedied back to per character, giving us the middle players a chance to reach our daily AD limit.
Reason for this is, i dont run instances, i dont have time to stand around waiting for a group to get build, i prefer to run on my own in this game i like. You just removed every incentive for my advancement in this game. Im not gonna make AD anymore, meaning i wont be able to buy the companion upgrades, i wont be able to go to AH and buy the refinement ingredients to upgrade my enchantments etc.
So, bring back first run bonus per character, and raise the daily limit to something higher if you want it done account wise...please.
> @greywynd said: > These devs are unbelievable. Whats the point of these feedback threads with 34 pages if they do not listen nor change anything. > > You assume they don't listen/read the forum. You also assume that a change happens immediately. > > They read. They have meetings and discuss. The changes take time. Usually months.
This thread has been up for a while. They did nothing and took no feedback at all. This game is even more of a chore than usual. If the devs are planning on closing the servers and ruining the game, they are on the correct path. I see more people quitting the game than people joining and not quitting after a few hours.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
They released M14. How do you know they haven't taken the feedback? Because changes weren't immediately made? Sorry, they monitor the state of the game. Whatever tweaks they decide need to be made will be made.
Player feedback was listened to; we now have a shared slot for AD, comp upgrade tokens, etc.
Honestly, I find the game less of a chore now. No more spending my day only chasing after AD. Spend a bit more time wondering what to do next.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Honestly, I find the game less of a chore now. No more spending my day only chasing after AD. Spend a bit more time wondering what to do next.
The "chore" was a means to an end that was encouraged/inclined upon by RQ's. Yes queue times decreased significantly and AD generation increased as intended though at the cost of numerous players being forced to carry/be held hostage by abusing players time and time again.
Now with Mod 14 AD generation is not only capped but also excessively hindered with daily bonuses being achievable by only one character per account essentially turning the once bearable "chore" into searching for a needle in a haystack and the abusing players are still running rampant. Both a cap and an AD generation debuff is overbearing. With Mod 14 casual players essentially win at expense of players that play considerably more.
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Comments
Even if a player got 35k from RQ's via first run bonuses that still leaves 65k to be refined through repeat runs (at a much lower return, EI) and or salvage which requires repeat runs anyway and or repeatedly completing HE's for protector seals to trade for items to salvage all which takes time. The time it would take to try and get the remaining 65k essentially wouldn't be worth the effort, especially on a daily basis.
The daily bonus being available on each character rather than only one would help soften the blow from the 100k RAD refine cap, that way players that farm can reach/get closer to the cap without having to provide considerably more effort/time at less return just to try and accrue what they could before. Currently it will take a player about 7 additional hours (about 8.5 total, somewhat less is salvage is taken into consideration) via RQ's to double the 35k granted from the account daily bonus which is quite ridiculous/excessive to endure for such a small gain, especially daily.
It would be similar to working 1.5 hrs for $20 and having to work 8.5 to make $40.
SUGGESTION
Since the cap system seems to be set in stone allow the daily bonuses to be obtained on multiple characters, that way the cap is still in place, AD generation is limited as intended and players that farm can still do so and not feel as shafted by having to play x amount of hours just for a tad bit more AD.
Since utilizing multiple characters for AD has taken a significant hit how about things like:
- "Account invoking" where players can invoke on all of their characters simultaneously. If it is going to take more time to generate AD at least free up time by not requiring players to continually switch characters to invoke.
- "Account-wide AD", the Zen balance is available to all characters, AD shouldn't be any different.
(Even if the system is changed to allow multiple characters to receive the daily bonus the above will still be quite useful.)
How do the changes help them earn more AD?
Pre-Mod 14 in about 30 minutes with VIP CP's could generate about 33k via running RQ's (normal and skirmish) on 2 characters (w/o VIP it would be around 29k). In Mod 14 the same 30 minutes would only grant around 20k AD... not to mention those that play less will have very little if any bonus RAD (BRAD) because of the number of times they would be able to invoke...
CP's pre-Mod 14 for the most part weren't generating "much" AD in the first place due to the amount of time they play so the ADX (Astral Diamond Exchange)/AH prices effected them "less" because it took them time to get the AD for Zen item/AH purchases anyway because they would generate less AD at a time.
In Mod 14 players that play less are having their spending/earning potential equated to those that play considerably more because the additional time spent by those that play more does not positively reflect/scale in the AD they generate...
Even if ADX/AH prices go down the time it takes to generate AD will go up, considerably especially for players that want to generate more outside of the one-off daily bonuses/as much as they were before. With the 100k cap and one character daily bonus it will essentially be a similar situation as before, just different numbers and much more effort necessary to try and get close to what could be gained pre-Mod 14...
- With Mod 14 1.5 hrs of RQ's will grant around 35k AD, let's assume the ADX dropped to 250, it would take a player about 7 days to get 1k Zen.
- Pre-Mod 14 it would take a player 1.5 hours via about 5 characters and about 7 days to get 1k Zen even if the ADX was at 500...
The situation is essentially the same, the difference being players that play more get less for their efforts while those that play less will still be hovering around the same amount of AD they generated before...
In about 30 minutes via 2 characters pre-Mod 14 a player could generate about 27k AD, run another character (now about 45 minutes total) and the AD goes up to about 40k, in Mod 14 players could get about 20k AD in about 30-40 minutes on 1 character, add another 15 minute run and 20k goes to 21k, or add a 25 minute run and that 20k goes to 22k...
If newer/casual players want/need to be given a AD "boost" how about newer accounts get a depleting new account RAD bonus that stacks with the BRAD from invoking and accounts that don't refine RAD as often gain a "rested" RAD refining bonus (similar to bonus XP gained while being logged off in World of Warcraft) that stacks with the other bonuses?
Don't negate the earning potential of players that play considerably more to try and suit the environment to those that play much less, giving CP's a boost essentially doesn't harm the game, bringing everyone else down to their level does. If a player plays 2x's as long as another (or more) and their AD generation is only "slightly" more via the same means that's a problem. The point being that the availability to do was there, the data showing that a number of players did so at all should have been a statement within itself rather than "fewer people are doing it than not so let's put a ceiling on RAD refining". On days/at times where a player has more time to play the effort to generate AD via Mod 14 is significantly lack luster, who wants to spent over 8 hours daily just to "try" and double 35k AD via RQ's? More so, why put that on players that play more?
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
The better tricks are mostly not good any more. But there *were* way better tricks.
What you proposed basically is to raise the cap to 400K or more.
And i doubt, that i'm the only one playing like this these days... not to mention that Jubilee and Ravenloft were/are heaven for creating and leveling/gearing up new characters on alt. accounts.
It'll be interesting to see what the Devs try next...
What is the point? Just ask them to raise the cap would be a lot more straight forward without any programming requirement and without annoying users.
Help them out with what? Buying RP? VIP? Campaigns? Enchantments? Marks? Possibly more so, how will Mod 14 help them differently/better than before? Those things cost AD, a hell of a lot of it
Low play time equals a low amount of:
- RP to upgrade items (enchantments, artifacts, etc.)
- BRAD (from invoking)
- AD in general
- Campaign/character progression
- Etc.
The Mod 14 RAD cap system is equivalent to moving the finish line closer (lowering ADX rates/AH prices), adding a base amount of weighted clothing to all the runners (RAD cap) and then adding more weight (one character daily bonus which slows AD generation even more) to the faster runners (plays that play considerably more).
If CP's are still slow/slower to gain AD how does the Mod 14 system help them? Supposed lower prices with slower AD generation/gains is essentially the SAME thing...
If it has been considered that too much AD is being generated dabble with AD sinks FIRST or apply the cap and leave the generation speed the same instead of also severely slowing it down as well (daily bonus available on only one character) and try out AD sinks later.
For the most part CP's aren't the frontrunners in regard to:
- high rank Guild leadership
- character progression
- campaign completion
- finding bugs
- helping shape class balance
- etc.
players that put in considerable amounts of time are though because the amount of time they put in helps allow them to experience things those things to considerable degrees, players that play a few hours a week more than likely aren't going to experience those things to those extents. The previous statement(s) isn't to take shots at CP's, it's the perceived reality of the situation as a whole in regard to Mod 14 penalizing players that play more to compensate those that play less.
This move doesn't seem to be grounded in what it has been proposed, it seems to be shrouded in selling more Zen while being coated in helping CP's and on the back end behind the scenes making the additional time a number of players put in above the "average" worth far less.
As a forum user that tends to give the publisher/developers of a game the benefit of the doubt to promote discussions those days are essentially over in regard to Neverwinter after witnessing players get penalized for playing the game "too much" though while money was being spent how much they played wasn't a problem but soon after they stopped spending the amount played was considered an issue...
For F2P players to make "considerable" progress it is going to take well over "average" amounts of time to do so (especially with the Mod 14 one character daily bonus) and if doing so brings about consequences what's the point? Players should be able to do as they please within the rules and if they are spending considerable amounts of time playing a game when they could be doing things in real life that actually matter their time/efforts should reflect what they have/get in-game instead of being scaled down to that of CP's...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
They read. They have meetings and discuss. The changes take time. Usually months.
With 9 characters, Pre-Mod 14? It's possible though in Mod 14 even with 9+ characters players for the most part probably won't be reaching "half" the cap in 3 hours (after BRAD is depleted), let alone less play time without ample preparation such as stocking BRAD/salvage, even then it takes time to protector seal/salvage drop farm and characters only get a little less than 4k BRAD per reset. Hitting 100k daily in Mod 14 will be quite the chore and take an excessive amount of time to do compared to pre-Mod 14 especially since BRAD will be essentially nonexistent and the daily bonuses currently can only be obtained on one character.
It will probably take around 1.5 hrs to complete the LQ, IQ and AQ (35k)(less time with shorter content/higher ilvl players actively participating), and the remaining 65k will be hell to generate in another 1.5 hrs especially w/o BRAD. Everything looks good except the "thus forcing players to buy zen with real money" part, players still don't have to buy Zen though it is true they may be inclined to do so which certainly and reasonably seems to be the agenda or at least part of it.
It doesn't take a person from Cryptic or the development team to point out or draw logical conclusions from the effects of less AD players can generate. It more than likely wouldn't be admitted by them anyway, that would be detrimental though coating the means of trying to entice more Zen purchases in something else like helping lower the ADX rates and AH prices to mask it on the other hand makes sense... Not stating that more Zen purchases is the only goal but willing to bet that it is in there and not a small part of it either.
What's even crazier is when changes like this come about or players simply dedicate more time playing to help compensate/progress faster they run the risk of losing their account for playing "too much", how's that for contradiction?...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
HAMSTER over grinding players for casual players in a game which the whole point is grinding is a death sentence.
I only play a couple of hours a day, and not even each day. I have 8 toons, one of each class to play different styles and to learn how other classes work. The 4 main toons are about 15k IL and the other 4 about 11k
Is relatively easy to hit the 100k refinement account limit, and if I don't play, I don't feel like I am missing out much.
With the previous version of Random Queues, at some point there was a chore of playing queues in all of them to make the most of it, hitting around 300k a day, but spending too much time on that, and there was the frustration on days where I could not produce as much.
Is a game, and is supposed to be enjoyable, not a chore. Ideally, I would love to get rewarded for the things that I like to play.
I spend money on the game, but more likely for convenient things, like VIP, bank slots, the dragonborn pack, or the SKT campaign buyout for the alts (not doing the campaign again).
I understand that even if is a free game, needs to be funded for it to continue. I see it more like "try first, and if you like it, fund it to keep it going". Just hope the company that runs it doesn't get too greedy looking for revenue that makes the game expensive.
I just wish that there were other ways to meet the limit other than the daily RQ. Some suggestions:
- Bring up the chances of RAD for overflow levels. This could encourage players to run content again instead of just queues
- Have the RQ limit by week instead of by day. By this way, casual players can still get bonus when they can play through the week, even if is just on the weekend.
- Bring salvageable items to other areas besides Barovia. Is nice that the mobs drop equipment that is sometimes better than yours, or is salvageable. This would encourage players to come back to the old areas for either the equipment itself, or the salvage.
- More weekly quests with the RAD rewards like the ones in Dread Ring, Shandar, Underdark ...
I would reiterate some comments found here, that I would like as well:
- Common RAD and AD pool, like the ZEN is now. Is a nice touch to bring it to the bank, but would be much nicer to have it shared.
- Common Bonus RAD, makes little sense to have each character with bonus when the refinement is shared
- Capability to invoke in all the alts. Even if I am not playing with the other 7 characters, is a "chore" to change to each one just to invoke.
The way that I see it, should be relatively simple to get RAD in a couple of hours, running almost any part of the content, being RQ, campaigns, quests and so on. If someone spends more time, has alternatives like hunts, enchantment stones and so on to get additional AD through selling them
Thank you
I am experiencing a feeling of discomfort and boredom in the game, after the new module has gone live. The new content is nice and I really appreciate it, but all the positive aspects you introduced in this module have been moved to the background by the cap on the rADs refinement.
Well, let's come to what happened to me.
After the new module went live, first of all I tried the new changes on the random queues. I did some random low dungeons (I got a kessell on the first day, eTOS on the second one), and everything went smooth. The tragedy happens on the advanced random queues. Those queues are full of low level characters grinding for ADs (and some good items to drop) and hoping for higher players to carry them trough endgame contents. I personally understand that people want to grow and therefore they try the endgame contents without the required minimal skills to face them, but parties with a majority of 11-12k characters will never close dungeons like mSP, FBI or mSVA, even if they put their best effort.
And here it is what happens in the majority of the cases. After a lot of wasted time, people accusing each other, people screaming that 11K toons should NEVER join mSP, kicks, requests of reinforcements where the new entering players are even worse... Well, after all this, usually the party decides to leave the queue: after all this stress, players grab in their hands the most absolute nothing. You introduced the advanced queues as something "challenging", I found them "frustrating" instead, both for low players that for higher players. Nobody wants to waste time after something totally unpredictable, with a very high chance to fail: this will result in a gradual drop of the number of players using this feature. At least you should raise the IL cap to 13K for endgame contents.
But this is the lesser evil in this new module: honestly I find that the limit on rADs refinement is the worst thing you could ever introduce in this game. Ok: as you stated, casual players and low level players will have a benefit from this changings because they will have access to a higher amount of ADs per day (100K now, instead of the 24K/36K we had when I started playing) and therefore, this will grant them a good amount of richness to reach a good level in a reasonable time. But times will come when the daily 100K of ADs won't be enough anymore to grow. Pets to be bought or upgraded (we need 1M of ADs if we haven't the companion tokens, to upgrade a pet to legendary rank: that is, 10 days of farming for each pet), enchantments to be upgraded (marks, refinement points, enchanting stones, preservation wards and coalescent wards for the 1% upgrades), mounts, equipments (especially the ones who need to be upgraded, like artifacts, weapons, necks and belts). A legendary mount has an average cost of 11 Millions of ADs: this means that (unless you don't drop something valuable from dungeons) it will take at least 4 months to buy one, and you will have to gather ADs for all the time, spending even one of them for other stuff is strictly forbidden, otherwise the target will become more and more a Chimaera. Considering that the average time between two modules is about three months, buying a legendary mount implies that you won't do anything for an entire module... it's quite choking, don't you think? People will start finding the game frustrating, if they have to struggle for days and weeks to see a minimal upgrade on their characters; buying Zens won't be their first option, but many of them will gradually abandon the game; we're always talking about casual free players, that are for sure less dedicated to Neverwinter and won't think twice before jumping into another MMORPG.
And let's see what happens to old dedicated players like me. I play everyday and I have time to do it. I have two 18K characters (DC and CW) and a 13K GF and I'm mainly a farmer, even if I've done some Zen purchases (when purchasing them was still worth it) during my three year "career" here in Neverwinter. I love running dungeons and maybe this is the main reason that encouraged me playing NW for all this time. Till last week, I had an average daily income of 220-250K ADs (not counting the random sellable drops), and I was sure I could use the entire amount of my daily earnings for my growth: I was also able to buy Zens via ZAX, for personal use (mainly services, preservations, keys when i get the discount) and not to speculate on Zen market items as many do. Actually i can reach 100k in a very short time (a couple of dungeons and some hunts are enough) and, after refining them, all the extra rADs are totally useless: as I actually play everyday, all the extra rADs are finishing in a huge (daily-increasing) mountain of useless richness I will hardly drain. Let's consider that, 4 days after the release, I already sit on about 500k of rADs, and this amount will raise more and more... I don't even dare to imagine how many rADs I will have in a month or two! This has several negative effects. First of all, I've stopped running dungeons: there's no point in doing it actually, and even if I love dungeoning, I simply won't do it if I cannot enjoy the fruits of my game. Where's the old rule stating that the more you play, the more you grow? ? The in-game time of a dedicated player is totally different from the time a casual player spends playing, and putting them on the same level is simply discouraging to even play more than one hour or two, let's figure out if this state of facts can improve our desire to invest money on our characters.
The lost of interest in dungeoning had a severe impact on my moral and my trill to the game. After running a couple of dungeons, doing the dailies and hunting, I am not able to find a point to do something else in the game, then I simply log out.
Before this module I was happy to jump into the game... now I'm bored, even the smallest things seem to become huge rocks to move, and I have no reason to do them.
From what I've heard, this feeling of frustration and uselessness isn't so rare among players. I understand your need to increase your money income from Zen purchases, but starving players to "encourage" them to shop is not the right way. You should, instead, rework the Zen Store to make its items more desirable (for example, why should I buy an epic mount for 3500Zen -that is, 1,75 millions of ADs- when i can buy the same mount for 150k on AH? ); make offers on purchases; raise the amount of Zen you get for a basic purchase... people have to be tempted, not forced to shop! Moreover, this cap makes the time required to reach targets too long even for old players, generating frustration and lost of interest for the game: and these are not encouragements to shop, but to stop.
I still hope you can find a compromise, and modify this state of things as soon and better as possible. Even raising the cap to 200k could be an amicable way to make people accept it. At least, we wouldn't feel so chocked as we are feeling now, and farming dungeons would become again funny, challenging and with an objective to reach: exactly as it was before.
I'm sorry for the lenght and thanks for reading.
Greetings
First off you lure us all into spending zen on character slots, are we getting that back now that we have no use whatsoever for alts?
Second, i can live with the 100k AD limit per account, dunno if it should be 100 or 200 or 400, that is not important, what i do find worrying is the massive nerf you did to bonuses for running random dailies. Before 9k for a first random per character, now 9k for first character per account. This needs to be remedied back to per character, giving us the middle players a chance to reach our daily AD limit.
Reason for this is, i dont run instances, i dont have time to stand around waiting for a group to get build, i prefer to run on my own in this game i like. You just removed every incentive for my advancement in this game. Im not gonna make AD anymore, meaning i wont be able to buy the companion upgrades, i wont be able to go to AH and buy the refinement ingredients to upgrade my enchantments etc.
So, bring back first run bonus per character, and raise the daily limit to something higher if you want it done account wise...please.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
> These devs are unbelievable. Whats the point of these feedback threads with 34 pages if they do not listen nor change anything.
>
> You assume they don't listen/read the forum. You also assume that a change happens immediately.
>
> They read. They have meetings and discuss. The changes take time. Usually months.
This thread has been up for a while. They did nothing and took no feedback at all. This game is even more of a chore than usual. If the devs are planning on closing the servers and ruining the game, they are on the correct path. I see more people quitting the game than people joining and not quitting after a few hours.
Player feedback was listened to; we now have a shared slot for AD, comp upgrade tokens, etc.
Honestly, I find the game less of a chore now. No more spending my day only chasing after AD. Spend a bit more time wondering what to do next.
Now with Mod 14 AD generation is not only capped but also excessively hindered with daily bonuses being achievable by only one character per account essentially turning the once bearable "chore" into searching for a needle in a haystack and the abusing players are still running rampant. Both a cap and an AD generation debuff is overbearing. With Mod 14 casual players essentially win at expense of players that play considerably more.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen