Please cap guild boons to 5000 max

werdandi

The current system offers for instance 8000 power, 8000 life steal to maxed-out guilds.
For the power, this is equal to a permanent +4000 ring of brutality x 2 !
This is way too much and unbalances both the game contents (which becomes too easy) and the players.

I understand that there is lot of work to reach a GH20, and people deserve a reward, but still, this value of boon is just overpowered.
Not only it pushes lazy players to these big guilds (thus they can do decent damage without knowing anything about their class), but even the skilled players from lower guilds cannot compete at some point (for the same item level) and will eventually leave for a "better" guild.
And it makes the game too easy.

You should acknowledge the fact that smaller guilds are dying because of these stupid op advantages.
And the roster of big guilds is limited anyway.
What is your vision of the future ?

I would suggest to review the boon rank system with a diminishing return
1000/2000/3000/3500/4000/4500/4750/5000
(instead of 1000/2000/3000/4000/5000/6000/7000/8000)

Just common sense.

kalina311

werdandi#8366 said:

The current system offers for instance 8000 power, 8000 life steal to maxed-out guilds.
For the power, this is equal to a permanent +4000 ring of brutality x 2 !
This is way too much and unbalances both the game contents (which becomes too easy) and the players.

I understand that there is lot of work to reach a GH20, and people deserve a reward, but still, this value of boon is just overpowered.
Not only it pushes lazy players to these big guilds (thus they can do decent damage without knowing anything about their class), but even the skilled players from lower guilds cannot compete at some point (for the same item level) and will eventually leave for a "better" guild.
And it makes the game too easy.

You should acknowledge the fact that smaller guilds are dying because of these stupid op advantages.
And the roster of big guilds is limited anyway.
What is your vision of the future ?

I would suggest to review the boon rank system with a diminishing return
1000/2000/3000/3500/4000/4500/4750/5000
(instead of 1000/2000/3000/4000/5000/6000/7000/8000)

Just common sense.

-1
the loss of those 3000 points you thought to "balance"
dude that is a drop in the bucket compared to what you get from dozens of potions/ foods and bonding rune stones and companions...

your logic is flawed and you are beating the wrong horse

you might want to reexamine the who what when where and why of your statements in relation to the Devs

micky1p00

1. Smaller guilds are not dying, yes it added something to consider, but it's only one part of a guild, and IMO, not the most important to consider. If the only thing a guild is offering are boons then that is not doing guilds right (at least IMO). And if someone will join my guild only for the boons, I will kick them so far, my boot will leave a permanent impression on their HAMSTER.

2. Adding diminished returns over already crazy diminished returns, is not common sense, or you didn't notice that the last ranks of the boons cost orders of magnitude more than the first.

3. Item level will be adjusted soon, so it will reflect the lack of boon accordingly. (This is actually a good thing)

4. My common sense from all previous 'nerf this, nerf that' threads saying people call to nerf what they do not have. So if it makes people lazy and don't know how to play, lets nerf their bondings, or vorpals, or better yet mandatory class change to TRs ? That will teach them to play. /sarcasm

werdandi

kalina311 said:

werdandi#8366 said:

The current system offers for instance 8000 power, 8000 life steal to maxed-out guilds.
For the power, this is equal to a permanent +4000 ring of brutality x 2 !
This is way too much and unbalances both the game contents (which becomes too easy) and the players.

I understand that there is lot of work to reach a GH20, and people deserve a reward, but still, this value of boon is just overpowered.
Not only it pushes lazy players to these big guilds (thus they can do decent damage without knowing anything about their class), but even the skilled players from lower guilds cannot compete at some point (for the same item level) and will eventually leave for a "better" guild.
And it makes the game too easy.

You should acknowledge the fact that smaller guilds are dying because of these stupid op advantages.
And the roster of big guilds is limited anyway.
What is your vision of the future ?

I would suggest to review the boon rank system with a diminishing return
1000/2000/3000/3500/4000/4500/4750/5000
(instead of 1000/2000/3000/4000/5000/6000/7000/8000)

Just common sense.

-1
the loss of those 3000 points you thought to "balance"
dude that is a drop in the bucket compared to what you get from dozens of potions/ foods and bonding rune stones and companions...

your logic is flawed and you are beating the wrong horse

you might want to reexamine the who what when where and why of your statements in relation to the Devs

I did not want to be mean by asking a more important nerf to guild boon. But yes -3000 points would be a good start.

Do you think it is normal to have as much stats when you are 2.5 and 3.5k, just because you clicked "activate" ? I don't think so.

and you comparison is not accurate because EVERYONE can get potions and bondings.
(by the way , I have R12 bondings and I also think they should be nerfed, but it is not the subject).

werdandi

micky1p00 said:

1. Smaller guilds are not dying, yes it added something to consider, but it's only one part of a guild, and IMO, not the most important to consider. If the only thing a guild is offering are boons then that is not doing guilds right (at least IMO). And if someone will join my guild only for the boons, I will kick them so far, my boot will leave a permanent impression on their HAMSTER.

2. Adding diminished returns over already crazy diminished returns, is not common sense, or you didn't notice that the last ranks of the boons cost orders of magnitude more than the first.

3. Item level will be adjusted soon, so it will reflect the lack of boon accordingly. (This is actually a good thing)

4. My common sense from all previous 'nerf this, nerf that' threads saying people call to nerf what they do not have. So if it makes people lazy and don't know how to play, lets nerf their bondings, or vorpals, or better yet mandatory class change to TRs ? That will teach them to play. /sarcasm

1. small guilds are dying because they cannot grow if people keep leaving once they have a good item level. They leave because they want to be on equal footing in terms of stats when there is a comparison in paingiver chart for example.
2. i don' t know much about the costs, but anyway, I claimed from the beginning that a reward is obviously necessary when a stronghold is upgraded. But +8k of whatever boon is wayyyyy to much.
3. not sure it is a good thing: it will reinforce elitism
4. no, bondings and vorpals can be acquired by anyone, because it is all about gear, it is not detrimental to other players. You miss the point.

beckylunatic

werdandi#8366 said:

You should acknowledge the fact that smaller guilds are dying because of these stupid op advantages.

...

What is your vision of the future ?

They are working on implementing a variety of catch-up mechanisms for guilds that are further behind, to be released May 2. And we'll see from there.

werdandi

micky1p00 said:

1. Smaller guilds are not dying, yes it added something to consider, but it's only one part of a guild, and IMO, not the most important to consider. If the only thing a guild is offering are boons then that is not doing guilds right (at least IMO). And if someone will join my guild only for the boons, I will kick them so far, my boot will leave a permanent impression on their HAMSTER.

2. Adding diminished returns over already crazy diminished returns, is not common sense, or you didn't notice that the last ranks of the boons cost orders of magnitude more than the first.

3. Item level will be adjusted soon, so it will reflect the lack of boon accordingly. (This is actually a good thing)

4. My common sense from all previous 'nerf this, nerf that' threads saying people call to nerf what they do not have. So if it makes people lazy and don't know how to play, lets nerf their bondings, or vorpals, or better yet mandatory class change to TRs ? That will teach them to play. /sarcasm

1. small guilds are dying because they cannot grow if people keep leaving once they have a good item level. They leave because they want to be on equal footing in terms of stats.
2. i don' t know much about the costs, but anyway, I claimed from the beginning that a reward is obviously necessary when a stronghold is upgraded. But +8k of whatever boon is wayyyyy to much.
3. not sure it is a good thing: it will reinforce elitism
4. no, bondings and vorpals can be acquired by anyone, because it is all about gear, it is not detrimental to other players. You miss the point.

plasticbat

werdandi#8366 said:

micky1p00 said:

1. Smaller guilds are not dying, yes it added something to consider, but it's only one part of a guild, and IMO, not the most important to consider. If the only thing a guild is offering are boons then that is not doing guilds right (at least IMO). And if someone will join my guild only for the boons, I will kick them so far, my boot will leave a permanent impression on their HAMSTER.

2. Adding diminished returns over already crazy diminished returns, is not common sense, or you didn't notice that the last ranks of the boons cost orders of magnitude more than the first.

3. Item level will be adjusted soon, so it will reflect the lack of boon accordingly. (This is actually a good thing)

4. My common sense from all previous 'nerf this, nerf that' threads saying people call to nerf what they do not have. So if it makes people lazy and don't know how to play, lets nerf their bondings, or vorpals, or better yet mandatory class change to TRs ? That will teach them to play. /sarcasm

1. small guilds are dying because they cannot grow if people keep leaving once they have a good item level
2. i don' t know much about the costs, but anyway, I claimed from the beginning that a reward is obviously necessary when a stronghold is upgraded. But +8k of whatever boon is wayyyyy to much.
3. not sure it is a good thing: it will reinforce elitism
4. no, bondings and vorpals can be acquired by anyone, because it is all about gear, it is not detrimental to other players. You miss the point.

Being part of the guild, you have an advantage over you don't have one.
Small guild is not dying or at least the mid size guild is not because every guild has limited space.
There is alliance and even big guild wants small and mid size guild to join because they are the guild resource sink (to get guild mark).
Big guild member spend time, effort, resource, money to reach the max for that particular privilege.
Without or lower those privilege is an insult for the effort because (for example) there would be no good reason to go for the last mile for just +250.

mousebreaker85

As a smaller guild of 20 members I disagree with this we are part of an alliance of a maxed out helm guild
We are only currently on 5400 in boons
Which really as someone else stated is a drop in the bucket as armor pen,crit,and a few others a lot of us are at the cap anyways
And 8k power while nice is a small part of the 80k after companions gift procs
Not to mention the work necessary to get em to that level .
Many of our guilds have plenty of open spots in a thriving alliance that we can always get a full 25 man tia run going even while having 3 edemo and FBI runs going.
The problem is everyone wants to have Thier own guild and don't realize the work involved .
But if you join an active alliance many players from the other guilds also donate and makes it much easier .
It is so easy to get to a 2k item level now with just trade bar gear and rank 7s which are almost free now .
I suggest looking around for a spot before starting a new guild as many established guilds would be happy to help gear you up just to have another active player.
We have spots and though not 8k yet 6k ain't to shabby

werdandi

mousebreaker85#4641 said:

As a smaller guild of 20 members I disagree with this we are part of an alliance of a maxed out helm guild

We are only currently on 5400 in boons

Sorry but "only" 5400 (lol) is already too much, but congrats for having reached that GH rank. And I do understand the work involved.
But more than 5000 points of stats is overpowered. As I said above, is that normal that a 2.5k player has more resting stats than a 3.5k player who completed all the campaigns and has better gear ????
And you should admit that the contents of the game is already easy without guild boons.

mousebreaker85#4641 said:

Many of our guilds have plenty of open spots in a thriving alliance that we can always get a full 25 man tia run going even while having 3 edemo and FBI runs going.
The problem is everyone wants to have Thier own guild and don't realize the work involved .
But if you join an active alliance many players from the other guilds also donate and makes it much easier .
It is so easy to get to a 2k item level now with just trade bar gear and rank 7s which are almost free now .
I suggest looking around for a spot before starting a new guild as many established guilds would be happy to help gear you up just to have another active player.

Good for you that your alliance is that active but it is not the case of all alliances. And you have been admitted in that big alliance because of your GH rank, not by mercy for your 20 members. By the way, I am already in a guild and in an alliance, and I am well beyond 2k IL.
I don't want to create a new guild because it will be useless in regards to the current context, and I don't have a leader soul

I have spoken a lot recently with guildies and they all agree on the fact that this level of SH boons is unfair when you want to compare properly people in the paingiver/healer/whatever chart at the end of an event.
Some of my guildies already left because of this .
Sadly Item level does not work for comparing.

beckylunatic

werdandi#8366 said:

And you have been admitted in that big alliance because of your GH rank, not by mercy for your 20 members.

Some alliances will not accept guilds under level [whatever], but many others only seek a philosophical fit and occasional signs of life.

mousebreaker85

I guess I'm just not understanding how 8k boon is overpowered
If you put it towards lifesteal or armor pen you would be way over the cap and basically useless
If you put it in power after all other boons and buffs you have damn near 100k which is not even 1/10 not to mention it has crazy diminishing returns
Hell 8k power isn't even a 10% damage boost
You get 4K off a freakin mount alone!
but everyone is entitled to Thier opinion
Just remember most people in 8k guilds are prob at hard cap or soft cap on 70% of stats anyway so Thier using
Mount speed,power, and def which really doesn't do much at that level anyway .
8k defense on my TR brings me up to Tin foil armor

oldbaldyone

werdandi#8366 said:

I have spoken a lot recently with guildies and they all agree on the fact that this level of SH boons is unfair when you want to compare properly people in the paingiver/healer/whatever chart at the end of an event.
...
Sadly Item level does not work for comparing.

Stop comparing people. Unless you PVP, there are way to many variables to really make a valid comparison, especially with the tools in game.

GH20 takes a tremendous commitment in time, effort, teamwork. They deserve the benefits.

I'll agree power creep is bad again, but nerfing things after they have been obtained is not the way to go.

Unknown

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reg1981

Do you really think big guilds got there by taking in lazy players who leech off the boons? Not a chance. Contribute to the guild, help us grow it to where it needs to be, otherwise... Well, don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya!

We as a guild grinded out for months to get these boons. The end game content is a real HAMPSTER and we LOVE IT!!!

You do realize that with food and potions and stuff stacked right it's like having an extra 20-30 R12 enchants on your toon? You soon see that 8k is not the beast you think it is!

And why did I have to write hampster myself! The forum accepted something I would have expected to be blocked lol

sobac

werdandi#8366 said:

I would suggest to review the boon rank system with a diminishing return
1000/2000/3000/3500/4000/4500/4750/5000
(instead of 1000/2000/3000/4000/5000/6000/7000/8000)

Just common sense.

Zero common sense here, IMO. Have you checked the resources you need for each rank? Right now you get 1k per rank, but costs grow exponentially. Last rank that "only" gives you 1k cost like first 5.

reg1981

The other thing I want to add is all the astral diamonds that were required to be donated. When this went live there were no vouchers or professions to cover your AD requirements. We donated straight up diamonds. MILLIONS of them. Coffer required it and it was the ONLY way. No joke, MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of actual AD went in our coffer.

werdandi

I was sure that smug haters were going to argue on this thread.
Except a few of you, nobody seems to get that 8k value can be too much.
Taking a buffed group for comparison and say this 8k will count only for less than 1/10 is quite hypocrital.

Maybe my idea of diminishing return sounded harsch but the idea is only to decrease the value. I don't care of the way it could be applied.

I am able to see the full picture, but many of you just want to keep your privileges just because you worked for them (and it is your only reason).

Come on, I ask to decrease to 5000, not to 0.

And it is even more important for power boon, because power in general should have diminishing return.

urabask

werdandi#8366 said:

I was sure that smug haters were going to argue on this thread.
Except a few of you, nobody seems to get that 8k value can be too much.
Taking a buffed group for comparison and say this 8k will count only for less than 1/10 is quite hypocrital.

Maybe my idea of diminishing return sounded harsch but the idea is only to decrease the value. I don't care of the way it could be applied.

I am able to see the full picture, but many of you just want to keep your privileges just because you worked for them (and it is your only reason).

Come on, I ask to decrease to 5000, not to 0.

And it is even more important for power boon, because power in general should have diminishing return.

Power does have diminishing returns. 3k power at the ilvl of the players that will have a rank 10 boon structure is something dumb like a 1% damage increase.

micky1p00

werdandi#8366 said:

I was sure that smug haters were going to argue on this thread.
Except a few of you, nobody seems to get that 8k value can be too much.
Taking a buffed group for comparison and say this 8k will count only for less than 1/10 is quite hypocrital.

Don't agree = Smug haters. Good thing we are not in your dictatorship, I wouldn't want to be sent to a Gulag or hanged just for disagreeing with his rightness.

werdandi#8366 said:

Maybe my idea of diminishing return sounded harsch but the idea is only to decrease the value. I don't care of the way it could be applied.

You don't care. We do.

werdandi#8366 said:

I am able to see the full picture, but many of you just want to keep your privileges just because you worked for them (and it is your only reason).

This is to full picture, like tomato to a vegetable, you can try to pass it as one, you can even mistake it as one, but it's really isn't. It's a red red fruit.

For some reasons, that are yours, you don't want to slowly and patiently upgrade your guild, or move, or join one, or recruit or whatever needed to be at the same level.
Also not willing to accept the work others put into that 'privilege', you prefer to drag down everyone lower. Sorry if we resist.

Wouldn't be better to ask for a ways to catch-up ? And if you are so worry about power-creep, throw in request for harder content.

And do I need more reasons, besides the inhumane, metric HAMSTER-ton of effort it took to get those boons ?! I don't think so.

werdandi#8366 said:

Come on, I ask to decrease to 5000, not to 0.

And it is even more important for power boon, because power in general should have diminishing return.

For your convenience:

http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/dr
http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/power

werdandi#8366 said:

mousebreaker85#4641 said:

As a smaller guild of 20 members I disagree with this we are part of an alliance of a maxed out helm guild

We are only currently on 5400 in boons

Sorry but "only" 5400 (lol) is already too much, but congrats for having reached that GH rank. And I do understand the work involved.
But more than 5000 points of stats is overpowered. As I said above, is that normal that a 2.5k player has more resting stats than a 3.5k player who completed all the campaigns and has better gear ????
And you should admit that the contents of the game is already easy without guild boons.

mousebreaker85#4641 said:

Many of our guilds have plenty of open spots in a thriving alliance that we can always get a full 25 man tia run going even while having 3 edemo and FBI runs going.
The problem is everyone wants to have Thier own guild and don't realize the work involved .
But if you join an active alliance many players from the other guilds also donate and makes it much easier .
It is so easy to get to a 2k item level now with just trade bar gear and rank 7s which are almost free now .
I suggest looking around for a spot before starting a new guild as many established guilds would be happy to help gear you up just to have another active player.

Good for you that your alliance is that active but it is not the case of all alliances. And you have been admitted in that big alliance because of your GH rank, not by mercy for your 20 members. By the way, I am already in a guild and in an alliance, and I am well beyond 2k IL.
I don't want to create a new guild because it will be useless in regards to the current context, and I don't have a leader soul

I have spoken a lot recently with guildies and they all agree on the fact that this level of SH boons is unfair when you want to compare properly people in the paingiver/healer/whatever chart at the end of an event.
Some of my guildies already left because of this .
Sadly Item level does not work for comparing.

And as I've said, next Item Level iteration will take that into account. So don't worry your item level will correctly reflect it, and you wont have two 4k people with stat difference.
But you that is not the issue isn't it.....

Unknown

This content has been removed.

werdandi

urabask said:

Power does have diminishing returns. 3k power at the ilvl of the players that will have a rank 10 boon structure is something dumb like a 1% damage increase.

Are you sure because I thought it was quite linear : 400 points is a 1% increase to that stat. So for 8k, 20% power increase (or for 3k, 7.5% power increase).
So I am surprised the contribution bonus to the damage would be only 1%, unless you are talking of a buffed character (contribution to overall damage becomes lower)??

plasticbat

werdandi#8366 said:

urabask said:

Power does have diminishing returns. 3k power at the ilvl of the players that will have a rank 10 boon structure is something dumb like a 1% damage increase.

Are you sure because I thought it was quite linear : 400 points is a 1% increase to that stat. So for 8k, 20% power increase (or for 3k, 7.5% power increase).
So I am surprised the contribution bonus to the damage would be only 1%, unless you are talking of a buffed character (contribution to overall damage becomes lower)??

Use this: http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/power

Go to bottom: power to dps increase

Set current power to 30000, Set power added to 1000.
Change current power to 31000, to 32000, 33000, ....
Watch the "increase" number.

werdandi

plasticbat said:

Use this: http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/power

Go to bottom: power to dps increase

Set current power to 30000, Set power added to 1000.
Change current power to 31000, to 32000, 33000, ....
Watch the "increase" number.

I already did but I don't find 1% increase not matter what.
I find 4.3% more damage for 3k and 11.44 more damage for 8k more power.

And 30000 current "resting" power is not average anyway (it corresponds more to a 3.7-3.8k character).

urabask

werdandi#8366 said:

plasticbat said:

Use this: http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/power

Go to bottom: power to dps increase

Set current power to 30000, Set power added to 1000.
Change current power to 31000, to 32000, 33000, ....
Watch the "increase" number.

I already did but I don't find 1% increase not matter what.
I find 4.3% more damage for 3k and 11.44 more damage for 8k more power.

And 30000 current "resting" power is not average anyway (it corresponds more to a 3.7-3.8k character).

Go to the bottom set it to 150,000 power. 3000 power is a 1.58% DPS increase.

werdandi

urabask said:

werdandi#8366 said:

plasticbat said:

Use this: http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/power

Go to bottom: power to dps increase

Set current power to 30000, Set power added to 1000.
Change current power to 31000, to 32000, 33000, ....
Watch the "increase" number.

I already did but I don't find 1% increase not matter what.
I find 4.3% more damage for 3k and 11.44 more damage for 8k more power.

And 30000 current "resting" power is not average anyway (it corresponds more to a 3.7-3.8k character).

Go to the bottom set it to 150,000 power. 3000 power is a 1.58% DPS increase.

And 8000 power is 4.213% dps increase.
This time, you really speak of a buffed character.
What do you want to demonstrate ?
AP gain for example has real diminishing return, unlike power.
The "relative dps increase", it is like crit severity, and it is not the subject.

werdandi

Well, this discussion is vain.
We will not change our views because we don't have the same approach.
What is done is done, and be reassured: developers are not likely to touch this "sensible" aspect of the game, even if it is broken.
Call me Her Highness but guess what, I have no influence.


What is done is done.

beckylunatic

Whether or not it was initially "too much", taking it away after the fact is not a good way to rebalance the game.

And I lead a guild that is currently Rank 9, thanks.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

pterias

Werdandi, as a solo player, I completely sympathize with your position (and your emotions too), but this is absolutely the most hostile and least likely to actually happen way to deal with it. Asking the devs to rob people of something they've worked their butts off for is a good way to set the world on fire, not make it a better place.

A much better and more realistic approach is currently being talked about in this thread over here. We should be proposing ways for players in small guilds or no guilds to catch up, not HAMSTER over everyone else. That said, optimism for any progress is in short supply, but being hostile about it is just gonna rally the beneficiaries of the current regime against the whole idea.

urabask

werdandi#8366 said:

urabask said:

werdandi#8366 said:

plasticbat said:

Use this: http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/power

Go to bottom: power to dps increase

Set current power to 30000, Set power added to 1000.
Change current power to 31000, to 32000, 33000, ....
Watch the "increase" number.

I already did but I don't find 1% increase not matter what.
I find 4.3% more damage for 3k and 11.44 more damage for 8k more power.

And 30000 current "resting" power is not average anyway (it corresponds more to a 3.7-3.8k character).

Go to the bottom set it to 150,000 power. 3000 power is a 1.58% DPS increase.

And 8000 power is 4.213% dps increase.
This time, you really speak of a buffed character.
What do you want to demonstrate ?
AP gain for example has real diminishing return, unlike power.
The "relative dps increase", it is like crit severity, and it is not the subject.

So everything in the game happens in a vacuum? No one that has rank 10 boon structures is running in parties where this doesn't happen. They've got AA with 100% uptime with r12 bondings and you're delusional if you think otherwise.

defiantone99 said:

They are just pulling your chain. They had to nerf DC power-sharing due to it causing major game-breaking issues.

DC powersharing was nerfed to try to make DO look better. Afaik they didn't actually fix the issues that caused it to break the game with 11+ DCs.