Trickster Rogue Class Balance Suggestions

trgluestickz

rustlord said:

Didn't realize this thread was 6 pages long! But yeah, still agree on most points. I'd rather leave the bickering on which powers need buffs, and focus myself on what's currently broken and need some serious rebalancing.

"There is a WK build, but it's based on a bug and is only really good against other TRs."

@morenthar About time I came clean dont I? So Whisperknife has a passive called
Razor Action that the devs unwittingly left as Piercing damage [1]. It hits on the low numbers, fully feated it hits up to 10K with 3x 1.5K ticks afterward. Who cares right?

Bloodbath multiprocs this power [2], with the initial hit appearing twice, and the ticks up to 14 times. Now where are we with the math:

(10,000 x 2 ) + (1,500 x 14) = 41,000 + 50% SoD = 61,500 AOE Piercing
Not counting the normal damage from all powers used -

From there it's just,
Stealth > Vengeance Pursuit > Bloodbath > Shadow of Demise

Then rinse and repeat with 12-20K recovery, about one bloodbath every 8~10 seconds. This will shred any TR and most classes below 3.5K. Admittedly, it doesn't work against many BiS healers, but it's obviously not a WAI interaction. Spamming dailies in PvP should also be looked at, but this is more a blanket issue across all classes.

I will also come clean about other things the bloodbath + passive powers bug effects. It also makes the MI passives invisible infiltraitor and infiltraitor's action multiply by 2. This combo is incompatible with the builds of most PVP TRs since most use SE and passives that favor one shotting people. It is also incompatible for PVE dps builds because they use different dailies. For the few who still use other builds, this combo is helpful but is not currently strong enough to unbalance anything.

trgluestickz

blur#5900 said:

I appreciate all the PvP input, nice suggestions guys, we were really thin in that part.

One thing, we dont know how far the devs are willing to go with their TR rework. Are they going to modify current abilities just a tiny bit, are they going to revert some abilities to how they were before the Great Depression (when the big nerf happened) or they are going to completely rework the class? I would not put my money on last option, to me it seems the least likely to happen. If they decide to revert to pre mod6 state nothing we can do about it, i guess, but that might make TR too strong so the first option seems most likely.
With that being said, i dont know how much likely it is, for the suggestions who differ too much from current state, to be implemented. That's why when we made the original suggestions we had one question in mind. "What are the smallest changes we can think of which would have best results?"

Back to PvE. I saw many great suggestions but i think most of them are great just on paper, in actual combat they would not help us. I'll try to explain few.
I saw few suggestion about combat advantage. In PvP it might be more rare but in PvE we have CA almost all the time, on mobs maybe not full time but on bosses definitely 100% up time.

Shadowborn. If we tie it only to encounters we lose too much. WoB, Bloodbath and CB benefit from Shadowborn and some other abilities which would not work if it was encounter only. Excluding SE from Shadowborn bonus is needed.

Shadow of Demise. Many great suggestions but not effective imo. I saw the Killing Spree suggestion, suggestions which "if target dies before SoD hits do this or do that". Thing is, after the target dies, its too late.
Its rare to have SoD up in mobs fights. Mob groups are usually made of one tough guy and few guys who die instantly. Even that tough guy gets one-shotted in strong parties. My point here is any effect we get which activates too late is not effective. It may be helpful to lower geared parties who take a lot more time killing things but keep in mind those parties which melt everything. In those strong parties SoD has no time to proc except on bosses in FBI, SVA and mSP. For example, lets take suggestions which buff us if SoD didnt get to proc on time, lets say CN bosses. It is not useful for any of the 3 bosses. They can give us ability to one-hit anything we attack but no help of it if we dont have a target to attack.
20% increased Stealth regeneration and regeneration not interrupted by damage is important part of SoD. If we remove that the up time of SoD might be influenced too much.

Anything tied to deflect doesnt proc in PvE. Also TR is a class with Stealth, highest deflect severity and strong CC which makes our defensive abilities already too strong in PvP. Improving those even more is too much.

Battlewise feat is indeed a joke. Any suggestion would make it more useful than it currently is.

Clouds of Steel, interesting suggestions. My input - inspired by epic Death Slaad. Every 2nd hit would be an aoe. We would have 1 normal hit and then a hit which causes explosion (or name it something else) in a small radius.

Additional damage based on % of weapon damage. I think that bonus is too small, even for PvP. If i remember correctly Elol set was 50% of weapon damage and damage was barely noticeable even tho it activated on every crit hit. So 100% weapon damage on encounter is barely noticeable x2, or even less since its encounter only.

You are right that just giving combat advantage to us more often would not be of much help in PVE. However, adding mechanics that work when you have combat advantage and adding increases to combat advantage damage would be useful in PVE. I did make a few sugestions to give us combat advantage more often as well but those were aimed more at PVP and not meant to be a fix for PVE.

I agree with you that the best proposed fix for shadowborn + SE so far is to exclude it from applying to shocking execution.

I also agree that the killing spree sugestion for SOD would not help TRs in PVE since it would be subject to the same problems that the feats dying breath and twisted grin have.

After giving it a second thought, some of the sugestions I put fowards that relate to deflect mechanics and adding more deflect should probably be scrapped. They aren't needed, I had heard a bunch of people asking for more survivability in PVE and put those extra defensive sugestions fowards in an attempt to help with that. Your point about the mechanics working off of deflect reminded me that you don't get hit in pve enough for any of that to come in handy so nevermind on those. (EDIT: I have gone back through my old posts and marked the ideas I scrapped in bold and italics. Everything not in bold and italics is still viable.)

I did make a few sugestions to the defensive feats we already had that are currently useless, these sugestions should not be scrapped and changing these would not be enough to mess up pvp. Survivor for example, needs a rework and mocking gesture needs to be taken out of the scoundrel tree since it isn't very useful for them. Its a good feat for a more stealth focused TR so I sugested giving it to the sabotuer tree rather than wasting it.

For scullcracker, the 100% weapon damage with encounters against control immune targets was a neat mechanic to consider but I agree that it is not enough. Especially considering it only applys to encounters.

trgluestickz

I just remembered something that makes the case for giving scullcracker a stun or a prone instead of a daze even stronger. Most TRs in both pvp and pve have at least 1 power with a daze on their bar, many have 2 powers with a daze on their bar. The 3rd slot is often taken up by ITC. This means on most TR's bars right now, they usually have only 1 or 0 encounter powers that they can make effective use out of the daze from scullcracker on. If the power you proced scullcracker with is already a daze, its completely redundant to have 2 overlapping dazes. ITC can't proc scullcracker at all. Upgrading the daze from scullcracker to a stun at least would hold the person still for you instead of wasting a daze when the target is already dazed. A prone would be even better.

If scullcracker was kept as a daze, the trigger for scullcracker needs to changed to something other than "when you use an encounter power". Perhaps scullcracker should trigger " when you hit with an attack" instead of "when you use an encounter power".

The stun or the prone is a lot better than this second sugestion so I would recommend this instead of the trigger rewrite.

rustlord

Thanks @trgluestickz! That definitely saved me a lot of skimming. I think we're all quite eager to get this rework off the ground, on the other hand it's more likely that the devs will be chipping away at it in layers.

I forgot to say before that I'd rather have the healing-depression debuff to be exclusive to TR bleeds too, and not all bleeds. It should be DF and Disheartening strike. Right now, both powers are either difficult to set up or very risky. Like DF, it almost always takes a daily power + smoke bomb to stack a full 10 bleed -- the suggestion to make all bleeds apply in a single round should go a long way for this. But another thing that rationalizes this debuff is that those micro hits, +glyphs if you're using them which is about 20 hits per flurry, triggers healing boons, insignias and what have you. It's basic mechanic is by design easily unraveled by healing. I've gotten a lot of good HRs and GWF low enough, only for another TR in my team to come in and DF them.. healing them instead. It's funny, but at the same time ridiculous.

Disheartening Strike isn't too different in that regard. It takes too long to cast and leaves you wide open for so little purpose.

lordseth1985

@trgluestickz Nice feedback m8, that's what we need! All my ideas are just it: ideas, what I think that could help us do our job. That damage on Skullcracker could be higher? ofc. Maybe 500%? I didn't wanted to put high number because we are already a hated class all over Neverwinter, and I gave that example just to show what was on my mind lol

Anyway, I really liked all that feedback, really hope more ppl join this discussion.

sirjimbofrancis

> @lordseth1985 said:
> @trgluestickz Nice feedback m8, that's what we need! All my ideas are just it: ideas, what I think that could help us do our job. That damage on Skullcracker could be higher? ofc. Maybe 500%? I didn't wanted to put high number because we are already a hated class all over Neverwinter, and I gave that example just to show what was on my mind lol
>
> Anyway, I really liked all that feedback, really hope more ppl join this discussion.

I gotta say, it's really great to see so many TRs contributing to this discussion in a positive way. I think the TR community, in general, has not been as active and collaborative as many other class communities, and it's nice to see it coalesce into something that really has the potential to help the class beyond, perhaps, any other single thing. Thanks, y'all!

crystal892f

In case it hasn't been mentioned yet (I didn't read all 7 pages): Disheartening Strike still (afaik) has reduced damage in PvP (it's mentioned in the tooltip still). Remove that. DoTs are already at a disadvantage in PvP, because of all the healing going on, so WKs don't need an additional disadvantage. If there were something to be done about the healing in PvP, there might be the need to reduce the damage in PvP again, but I doubt it.

The reduced damage in PvP came from a time before Mod 6, where 1 applied DhS had a high chance of a kill. That's not the case anymore - not even close.

Oh, and while I'm at it: A decrease in DhS' animation time would be nice.

trgluestickz

rustlord said:

Thanks @trgluestickz! That definitely saved me a lot of skimming. I think we're all quite eager to get this rework off the ground, on the other hand it's more likely that the devs will be chipping away at it in layers.

I forgot to say before that I'd rather have the healing-depression debuff to be exclusive to TR bleeds too, and not all bleeds. It should be DF and Disheartening strike. Right now, both powers are either difficult to set up or very risky. Like DF, it almost always takes a daily power + smoke bomb to stack a full 10 bleed -- the suggestion to make all bleeds apply in a single round should go a long way for this. But another thing that rationalizes this debuff is that those micro hits, +glyphs if you're using them which is about 20 hits per flurry, triggers healing boons, insignias and what have you. It's basic mechanic is by design easily unraveled by healing. I've gotten a lot of good HRs and GWF low enough, only for another TR in my team to come in and DF them.. healing them instead. It's funny, but at the same time ridiculous.

Disheartening Strike isn't too different in that regard. It takes too long to cast and leaves you wide open for so little purpose.

The healing depression could be extended to one DOT power per class and not be op, it would be a potential way to help combat the amount of self healing in pvp right now. Something else on a larger scale will need to be done to really fix the problem but a band aid is better than nothing.

The reason I say 1 power and not 2 or more is because you could just place muliple powers with healing depressions on your bar and keep it up for an overly long period of time, possibly even 100% uptime. For the same reason, I now realize its risky to give any at wills a healing depression since these powers can be used, well, at will. The only cooldown is the animation itself. The DOTs on many powers including DF and DS also last a long time. You would definatly be able to reapply healing depression before it ran out if it lasted as long as the bleeds do. It may be possible to make the healing depression short enough to not have a 100% uptime if the healing depression ends significantly before the bleed does. The question is just how short would it have to be made to work.

Giving the healing depression to smokebomb for TRs might be the best option if we went with this healing depression idea. Its got a cooldown so you can't just constantly reapply it and you can use your other powers while smokebomb is up to make those other powers reap the benifits of SB's healing depression. It is also avalalble to both WKs and MIs and commonly used by both.

A huge downside to giving one power per class a healing depression in pvp is that it will likely make any power that gets it an undisputably BIS power that never leaves anybody's bar. This could be a step backwards if we want to make a variaty of TR builds viable again and encourage people to have different power setups from eachother.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This paragraph is mostly here for those who are less knowlegable on what's wrong in pvp and also will help make the above and below ideas more clear: There being too much self healing in pvp is a part of what created the conditions for builds that hit as few times as possible (including one shot kill builds) to become BIS in the first place. A series of little hits that add up to a lot of damage (including DOTs) are less effective in pvp partly because they provide more chances for your foe's self heals to proc, and proc they do. Specifically in the case of TRs, the other part of why we can't rely on overall damage in pvp is that our damage from most of our powers is simply too low to rely on. These 2 halves of the puzzle are why so many pvp TRs turn to builds reliant on daily powers, especially shocking execution. This second half is the part the TR rework can fix but it can't fix the first half on its own.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With all of the above in mind, I think I have come up with a better idea than the first idea. This idea would make DOTs more effective in pvp, encourage build variaty, and help tackle the self heal problem in pvp all at once:

Make it so all DOTs across all classes cannot trigger some or all sources of self healing. So no matter what DOT you are using, a lot more of the damage would get though making DOTs more effective for all pvp players. I am unsure whether to make it so you can still heal from your own DOTs or to make it so both your own DOTs and your enemy's DOTs cannot heal you. I'm leaning towards the latter since the most effective way to heal yourself is by using DOTs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a 3rd idea that is a hybrid of both the 1st idea and the 2nd idea:

Make the healing depression only apply to the attacks you used to trigger it and all their bleeds. All other powers used while the healing depression is active do not reap the benifits of this healing depression. Under this model, both your own DOTs and your enemy's DOTs heal you for less so the healing depression applies to yourself too. As an example, this means if you used smokebomb to proc a 50% healing depression, your foe is healing 50% less from your smokebomb hits than they would if there was no healing depression placed on those smokebomb hits. If you then used dazing strike and an ally of yours hit your foe with an ice knife while SB's healing depression was still active, your foe could still self heal the dazing strike and the ice knife normally because they are not DOT powers. Your own healing from your SB is 50% less as well because healing depression applys to both your own DOTs and your enemy's.

This change would fix the problems with idea 1 making it a lot more viable, and it does its job of making DOT powers more effective and increasing build variaty for the TR.

I would take this 3rd idea further so it better combats the problems with self healing across all classes in pvp in addition to the other benifits. Similarly to idea 2, make this change apply to all DOT powers in the game, not just the ones from TRs. This is a way to make it so all DOTs get healing depression without it being OP.

blur

I dont play PvP but i have read and heard about healing problems in PvP. I'll try to give a suggestion for Healing depression which i think is simple and not too strong, correct me if i am wrong.

Every at-will TR has adds a Healing depression debuff on target in PvP which lasts 2 seconds and every at-will hit refreshes that duration, DOTs from at-wills included (or excluded?). This would not make 1 at-will BiS since all at-wills give it and variety is possible.
Now, the up time of that debuff would be pretty high i guess so a balanced number is needed to make that debuff useful and not too strong at the same time. SE aside, TR has to work pretty hard to inflict damage and then the self-heals procs and all that effort goes for nothing.
I am thinking, Healing depression reduces all healing (self-heals and external heals) by 50% or 30% if 50% is too much.

Again, i dont play PvP, correct me if my ideas are far from reality.

micky1p00

From another thread, and it's a known bug, I remember it from mod5 rework:

doink#2651 said:

Any suggestions what to do when OwtS procs and the stealthbar won´t fill up to max? After Lurker or WW no problem, but without? Is this a bug or do I misunderstand the capstone somehow? Also it makes Ambushers Haste useless cause my stealthbar stays at 95%. This costs me a lot of damge as MI Sabo.

And that remind me, WR animation is bugged, it tries to do all available charges, even if pressed only once and not held. It forces to cancel it by other action. It shouldn't work like this.

wwwazza

> @trgluestickz said:
...
> Shadow of Demise. Many great suggestions but not effective imo. I saw the Killing Spree suggestion, suggestions which "if target dies before SoD hits do this or do that". Thing is, after the target dies, its too late.
> Its rare to have SoD up in mobs fights. Mob groups are usually made of one tough guy and few guys who die instantly. Even that tough guy gets one-shotted in strong parties. My point here is any effect we get which activates too late is not effective. It may be helpful to lower geared parties who take a lot more time killing things but keep in mind those parties which melt everything. In those strong parties SoD has no time to proc except on bosses in FBI, SVA and mSP. For example, lets take suggestions which buff us if SoD didnt get to proc on time, lets say CN bosses. It is not useful for any of the 3 bosses. They can give us ability to one-hit anything we attack but no help of it if we dont have a target to attack.
> 20% increased Stealth regeneration and regeneration not interrupted by damage is important part of SoD. If we remove that the up time of SoD might be influenced too much.
>

I hear you, but I think a little more out-of-box thinking affords the Killing Spree idea more thought... yes it was my idea but that's beside the point :) The point is, SoD will proc whether your target dies, or not. It's a win-win.
What's missing is "How does that benefit the TR if the target is already dead?"
That's where I hope experience and creativity will define something useful, even in parties where mobs melt to nothing.

e.g.
Are there more mobs? Then some benefit could be had for the TR vs. those additional mobs. They would be helping the party further melt them to nothing. Yes they were melting them beforehand, but at least now you're contributing more.
e.g.
Is there a boss with adds? Then some benefit could be had for the TR vs. those adds that get SoD and die too quick, a benefit they would use against the boss who's still standing, most likely.

I wouldn't get too bogged down by mechanics or comparing to other classes, or anything... just let the creative juices flow and imagine what an MI:Executioner could do when going on a Killing Spree. The SoD is going to proc, no matter what. What does it do is an open door...

sirjimbofrancis

> @wwwazza#1611 said:
> > @trgluestickz said:

> ...

> > Shadow of Demise. Many great suggestions but not effective imo. I saw the Killing Spree suggestion, suggestions which "if target dies before SoD hits do this or do that". Thing is, after the target dies, its too late.

> > Its rare to have SoD up in mobs fights. Mob groups are usually made of one tough guy and few guys who die instantly. Even that tough guy gets one-shotted in strong parties. My point here is any effect we get which activates too late is not effective. It may be helpful to lower geared parties who take a lot more time killing things but keep in mind those parties which melt everything. In those strong parties SoD has no time to proc except on bosses in FBI, SVA and mSP. For example, lets take suggestions which buff us if SoD didnt get to proc on time, lets say CN bosses. It is not useful for any of the 3 bosses. They can give us ability to one-hit anything we attack but no help of it if we dont have a target to attack.

> > 20% increased Stealth regeneration and regeneration not interrupted by damage is important part of SoD. If we remove that the up time of SoD might be influenced too much.

> >

>

> I hear you, but I think a little more out-of-box thinking affords the Killing Spree idea more thought... yes it was my idea but that's beside the point The point is, SoD will proc whether your target dies, or not. It's a win-win.

> What's missing is "How does that benefit the TR if the target is already dead?"

> That's where I hope experience and creativity will define something useful, even in parties where mobs melt to nothing.

>

> e.g.

> Are there more mobs? Then some benefit could be had for the TR vs. those additional mobs. They would be helping the party further melt them to nothing. Yes they were melting them beforehand, but at least now you're contributing more.

> e.g.

> Is there a boss with adds? Then some benefit could be had for the TR vs. those adds that get SoD and die too quick, a benefit they would use against the boss who's still standing, most likely.

>

> I wouldn't get too bogged down by mechanics or comparing to other classes, or anything... just let the creative juices flow and imagine what an MI:Executioner could do when going on a Killing Spree. The SoD is going to proc, no matter what. What does it do is an open door...

No, the problem is, on mobs and on bosses, with a few exceptions, they ALL die within the time it takes SoD to proc. Whatever bonus you are thinking, it'll have to be time limited, and, by the time you get to the next group, it's gone. That's also why a number of the executioner feats are not very helpful. Everything dies, then you get your buff, but you are 10 seconds from the next group and the buff is gone. That is, unless you just leave your party and run ahead. Why bother fooling with adds on a boss when you can just attack the boss and kill it in less than 6 seconds? While you are fiddling with the adds, your CW and HR have killed the boss.

That's why making SoD proc instantly or just do a flat damage increase is a better solution. You get the benefit instantly, it's not too complicated, and doesn't risk creating some new game breaking situation we haven't thought of. And, most of all, makes a capstone feat useful again, in a simple way, in strong groups.

mafiadelperro

Or make SoD stack charges so if the target die before sod proc u remain with the charge and the next target hit by SoD will automatic recieve all charges lool idk man i just want to contribute

trgluestickz

blur#5900 said:

I dont play PvP but i have read and heard about healing problems in PvP. I'll try to give a suggestion for Healing depression which i think is simple and not too strong, correct me if i am wrong.

Every at-will TR has adds a Healing depression debuff on target in PvP which lasts 2 seconds and every at-will hit refreshes that duration, DOTs from at-wills included (or excluded?). This would not make 1 at-will BiS since all at-wills give it and variety is possible.
Now, the up time of that debuff would be pretty high i guess so a balanced number is needed to make that debuff useful and not too strong at the same time. SE aside, TR has to work pretty hard to inflict damage and then the self-heals procs and all that effort goes for nothing.
I am thinking, Healing depression reduces all healing (self-heals and external heals) by 50% or 30% if 50% is too much.

Again, i dont play PvP, correct me if my ideas are far from reality.

This isn't a bad idea. I'm hesitant to only give the healing depression to TRs when self healing is a pvp wide problem. I do however like the idea of making other damage from powers with a healing depression trigger the depression instead of only DOTs being able to apply it. I'm wondering though if all of our at wills actually need a healing depression since not all of them have DF's problem of tripping too many self heals too fast, sly flourish and gloaming cut for example, may not need this. Our at wills that don't need the healing depression do still need improvements, just maybe not this specific improvement.

I'm thinking that only the attack that triggered the healing depression should get the benifits of healing depression, making it so other powers that don't need it can't piggyback on the healing depression. This would negate any need to figure out a duration for the depression since the depression only applies to the attack that proced it. 2 of my sugestions would also tone down healing from your own DOTs in pvp in addition to toning down healing from your enemy's DOTs. This would go a long way towards toning down self healing to sane levels again across all of pvp.

trgluestickz

wwwazza#1611 said:

> @trgluestickz said:

...

> Shadow of Demise. Many great suggestions but not effective imo. I saw the Killing Spree suggestion, suggestions which "if target dies before SoD hits do this or do that". Thing is, after the target dies, its too late.

> Its rare to have SoD up in mobs fights. Mob groups are usually made of one tough guy and few guys who die instantly. Even that tough guy gets one-shotted in strong parties. My point here is any effect we get which activates too late is not effective. It may be helpful to lower geared parties who take a lot more time killing things but keep in mind those parties which melt everything. In those strong parties SoD has no time to proc except on bosses in FBI, SVA and mSP. For example, lets take suggestions which buff us if SoD didnt get to proc on time, lets say CN bosses. It is not useful for any of the 3 bosses. They can give us ability to one-hit anything we attack but no help of it if we dont have a target to attack.

> 20% increased Stealth regeneration and regeneration not interrupted by damage is important part of SoD. If we remove that the up time of SoD might be influenced too much.

>



I hear you, but I think a little more out-of-box thinking affords the Killing Spree idea more thought... yes it was my idea but that's beside the point The point is, SoD will proc whether your target dies, or not. It's a win-win.

What's missing is "How does that benefit the TR if the target is already dead?"

That's where I hope experience and creativity will define something useful, even in parties where mobs melt to nothing.



e.g.

Are there more mobs? Then some benefit could be had for the TR vs. those additional mobs. They would be helping the party further melt them to nothing. Yes they were melting them beforehand, but at least now you're contributing more.

e.g.

Is there a boss with adds? Then some benefit could be had for the TR vs. those adds that get SoD and die too quick, a benefit they would use against the boss who's still standing, most likely.



I wouldn't get too bogged down by mechanics or comparing to other classes, or anything... just let the creative juices flow and imagine what an MI:Executioner could do when going on a Killing Spree. The SoD is going to proc, no matter what. What does it do is an open door...

Its an interesting mechanic to consider but as @sirjimbofrancis , @blur , and myself have pointed out, your sugestion for SOD is not viable as a fix for executioner's current problems. This one honestly needs to be scrapped though feel free to post other sugestions.

trgluestickz

lordseth1985 said:

Dunnpo if it's allowed here, but...

http://orcz.com/Category:Neverwinter_Trickster_Rogues shows not only older version of tr's powers, but any other class.

The older versions of TR powers I found had some problems when I opened the link, it seems like some of these power entrys may be missing some details. The cloud of steel entry for example makes no mention of the limited charges that it used to have.

lordseth1985

> @trgluestickz said:
> Dunnpo if it's allowed here, but...
>
> http://orcz.com/Category:Neverwinter_Trickster_Rogues shows not only older version of tr's powers, but any other class.
>
> The older versions of TR powers I found had some problems when I opened the link, it seems like some of these power entrys may be missing some details. The cloud of steel entry for example makes no mention of the limited charges that it used to have.

> @trgluestickz said:
> Dunnpo if it's allowed here, but...
>
> http://orcz.com/Category:Neverwinter_Trickster_Rogues shows not only older version of tr's powers, but any other class.
>
> The older versions of TR powers I found had some problems when I opened the link, it seems like some of these power entrys may be missing some details. The cloud of steel entry for example makes no mention of the limited charges that it used to have.

Yah, that's a real problem, but its the only site I found with the tooltips of powers and feats

trgluestickz

As for the old TR feats, here are a few of the better ones that caught my eye. These have some interesting mechanics that could serve as an inspiration for sugestions:

Scoundrel Feats:

Underhanded Tactics: Increase the effectiveness of Combat Advantage for you by 4/8/12/1/20%.

Nimble Blade: 35% chance to deal an additional 4/8/12/1/20% damage on a non critical strike.

Brutal Wound: Courage Breaker and Whirlwind of Blades also deal 50/100/150/200/250% of your weapon damage over 5 seconds.

Sabotuer Feats:

Nimble Dodge: Your dodge costs 2/4/6/8/10% less Stamina. This reduction is doubled while Stealthed .

Speed Swindle: When you crit a foe it loses 2/4/6/8/10% Run Speed , you gain 2/4/6/8/10%.

Expert Sneak: While Stealthed , you gain 2/4/6/8/10% Run Speed and your At Will powers reduce your target's damage by 1/2/3/4/5%.

Executioner Feats:

Critical Teamwork: You and your nearby allies gain a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to crit.

Dazzling Blades: Your At-Wills powers have 3/6/9/12/15% chance to reduce cooldown on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second.

Deadly Momentum: Duelist's Flurry has a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to apply "Deadly Momentum" Deadly Momentum: Increase you critical severity by 5% per stack.

Overrun Critical: When you land a critical hit, one of your next attacks strikes with 30% of your crit severity.

lordseth1985

About df: Why we still look for that stacks? I mean, why don't make df create only one stack, like the hr bleed? (they still have it, right?)

Smth like "with the last hit of duelist flurry, you apply a bleed on you target. For the next x seconds, you make it bleed for x% max hp/x% weapon damage/what ever other damage source. Also, it takes x% more damage from physical damage"

And... Why do we neglect so much combat advantage and deflection? I mean, even being a close combat melee damage dealers, we don't act like warriors or fighters. We do our job using tricks, subterfuge, poison and taking advantage of unsuspecting targets via stealth. Many other mmos, rogue like classes have a overall lower damage, BUT hav high critical % and critical damage dealt, but not here (and I know, saying that was stupid, but its a fact...). We should have more powers and feats that work together with combat advantage, that's why we are here: Take advantage of enemies while our tanker taunt them.

lordseth1985

> @trgluestickz said:
> As for the old TR feats, here are a few of the better ones that caught my eye. These have some interesting mechanics that could serve as an inspiration for sugestions:
>
> Scoundrel Feats:
>
> Underhanded Tactics: Increase the effectiveness of Combat Advantage for you by 4/8/12/1/20%.
>
> Nimble Blade: 35% chance to deal an additional 4/8/12/1/20% damage on a non critical strike.
>
> Brutal Wound: Courage Breaker and Whirlwind of Blades also deal 50/100/150/200/250% of your weapon damage over 5 seconds.
>
> Sabotuer Feats:
>
> Nimble Dodge: Your dodge costs 2/4/6/8/10% less Stamina. This reduction is doubled while Stealthed .
>
> Speed Swindle: When you crit a foe it loses 2/4/6/8/10% Run Speed , you gain 2/4/6/8/10%.
>
> Expert Sneak: While Stealthed , you gain 2/4/6/8/10% Run Speed and your At Will powers reduce your target's damage by 1/2/3/4/5%.
>
> Executioner Feats:
>
> Critical Teamwork: You and your nearby allies gain a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to crit.
>
> Dazzling Blades: Your At-Wills powers have 3/6/9/12/15% chance to reduce cooldown on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second.
>
> Deadly Momentum: Duelist's Flurry has a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to apply "Deadly Momentum" Deadly Momentum: Increase you critical severity by 5% per stack.
>
> Overrun Critical: When you land a critical hit, one of your next attacks strikes with 30% of your crit severity.

Many of them was reasons of people come to forums and complain. That's why the devs "reworked" us to what we are today... And as you said, some of them worked very nicely and was waaaaaaay better that what we have now.

EDIT: I remember the time when many groups looked for a tr host for the feat critical teamwork...

demonmonger

> @lordseth1985 said:
> About df: Why we still look for that stacks? I mean, why don't make df create only one stack, like the hr bleed? (they still have it, right?)
>
> Smth like "with the last hit of duelist flurry, you apply a bleed on you target. For the next x seconds, you make it bleed for x% max hp/x% weapon damage/what ever other damage source. Also, it takes x% more damage from physical damage"
>
> And... Why do we neglect so much combat advantage and deflection? I mean, even being a close combat melee damage dealers, we don't act like warriors or fighters. We do our job using tricks, subterfuge, poison and taking advantage of unsuspecting targets via stealth. Many other mmos, rogue like classes have a overall lower damage, BUT hav high critical % and critical damage dealt, but not here (and I know, saying that was stupid, but its a fact...). We should have more powers and feats that work together with combat advantage, that's why we are here: Take advantage of enemies while our tanker taunt them.

Amen!!!!

And in other mmo tr type class have skills that bypass all armor and defenses. Or skills that drain 10% and another for 20% monster life per hit. (Works on bosses too)

trgluestickz

lordseth1985 said:

> @trgluestickz said:

> As for the old TR feats, here are a few of the better ones that caught my eye. These have some interesting mechanics that could serve as an inspiration for sugestions:

>

> Scoundrel Feats:

>

> Underhanded Tactics: Increase the effectiveness of Combat Advantage for you by 4/8/12/1/20%.

>

> Nimble Blade: 35% chance to deal an additional 4/8/12/1/20% damage on a non critical strike.

>

> Brutal Wound: Courage Breaker and Whirlwind of Blades also deal 50/100/150/200/250% of your weapon damage over 5 seconds.

>

> Sabotuer Feats:

>

> Nimble Dodge: Your dodge costs 2/4/6/8/10% less Stamina. This reduction is doubled while Stealthed .

>

> Speed Swindle: When you crit a foe it loses 2/4/6/8/10% Run Speed , you gain 2/4/6/8/10%.

>

> Expert Sneak: While Stealthed , you gain 2/4/6/8/10% Run Speed and your At Will powers reduce your target's damage by 1/2/3/4/5%.

>

> Executioner Feats:

>

> Critical Teamwork: You and your nearby allies gain a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to crit.

>

> Dazzling Blades: Your At-Wills powers have 3/6/9/12/15% chance to reduce cooldown on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second.

>

> Deadly Momentum: Duelist's Flurry has a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to apply "Deadly Momentum" Deadly Momentum: Increase you critical severity by 5% per stack.

>

> Overrun Critical: When you land a critical hit, one of your next attacks strikes with 30% of your crit severity.



Many of them was reasons of people come to forums and complain. That's why the devs "reworked" us to what we are today... And as you said, some of them worked very nicely and was waaaaaaay better that what we have now.



EDIT: I remember the time when many groups looked for a tr host for the feat critical teamwork...

Here are a few places inspiration could be drawn from these old feats:

What if the WK daily, Hateful Knives had an effect added to it that is similar to Brutal Wound. HK would now deal 50/100/150/200/250% of your weapon damage over 5 seconds or something very similar. Another potential way to improve HK is by weaving something similar to Underhanded Tactics into the power. Perhaps HK in addition to its current effect of granting you and your ally's combat advantage, should also increase the effectivness of combat advantage for you by X amount for 10 seconds. I'm assuming "effectiveness" means increased combat advantage damage. I don't know a ton about WKs so let me know if these additions are a bad idea.

You mentioned how Critical Teamwork used to make TRs more desirable in parties. This is a good point, I was going to make a sugestion on a team buff but it looks like the sugestion for wicked reminder from this thread's main post would do this perfectly. Here was that sugestion:

"Wicked reminder: TRs need a buff/debuff that is more useful with parties so they will have more utility in groups. Right now, WR applies a debuff which is limited by the defense reduction cap which means when compared to debuffs from other classes, it has limited use as the cap can be reached so easily, that there isn't a consistent need for it.

Our solution is to make this encounter have 3 charges, where each charge gives a 10% damage bonus for the party, instead of a defense reduction. Stealth applies 3 charges. When 3 charges are applied to target the buff lasts 6 seconds and has a maximum +30% damage bonus regardless of the number of WR hits applied after the 30% is reached."

Similarly to how a good team buff has already been sugested, it appears one of my own sugestions unwittingly has a lot in common with 2 of our older TR feats, Underhanded Tactics and Critical Teamwork. Here was that sugestion of mine:

"Deft Strike:
Make it so this power grants you and your allys combat advantage against the target for 5 seconds. Remove the ability to teleport to allies when stealthed from this power altogether, this effect tends to irritate players more often than it helps them when they mistakenly target an ally instead of an enemy. Replace this power's stealthed effect with something else, here is my suggestion: Stealthed: in addition to this power's other effects, you and you allies deal increased combat advantage damage to the target for 5 seconds and this power's range increases to 80 feet."

trgluestickz

trgluestickz said:

lordseth1985 said:

> @trgluestickz said:

> As for the old TR feats, here are a few of the better ones that caught my eye. These have some interesting mechanics that could serve as an inspiration for sugestions:

>

> Scoundrel Feats:

>

> Underhanded Tactics: Increase the effectiveness of Combat Advantage for you by 4/8/12/1/20%.

>

> Nimble Blade: 35% chance to deal an additional 4/8/12/1/20% damage on a non critical strike.

>

> Brutal Wound: Courage Breaker and Whirlwind of Blades also deal 50/100/150/200/250% of your weapon damage over 5 seconds.

>

> Sabotuer Feats:

>

> Nimble Dodge: Your dodge costs 2/4/6/8/10% less Stamina. This reduction is doubled while Stealthed .

>

> Speed Swindle: When you crit a foe it loses 2/4/6/8/10% Run Speed , you gain 2/4/6/8/10%.

>

> Expert Sneak: While Stealthed , you gain 2/4/6/8/10% Run Speed and your At Will powers reduce your target's damage by 1/2/3/4/5%.

>

> Executioner Feats:

>

> Critical Teamwork: You and your nearby allies gain a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to crit.

>

> Dazzling Blades: Your At-Wills powers have 3/6/9/12/15% chance to reduce cooldown on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second.

>

> Deadly Momentum: Duelist's Flurry has a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to apply "Deadly Momentum" Deadly Momentum: Increase you critical severity by 5% per stack.

>

> Overrun Critical: When you land a critical hit, one of your next attacks strikes with 30% of your crit severity.



Many of them was reasons of people come to forums and complain. That's why the devs "reworked" us to what we are today... And as you said, some of them worked very nicely and was waaaaaaay better that what we have now.



EDIT: I remember the time when many groups looked for a tr host for the feat critical teamwork...

Here are a few places inspiration could be drawn from these old feats:

What if the WK daily, Hateful Knives had an effect added to it that is similar to Brutal Wound. HK would now deal 50/100/150/200/250% of your weapon damage over 5 seconds or something very similar. Another potential way to improve HK is by weaving something similar to Underhanded Tactics into the power. Perhaps HK in addition to its current effect of granting you and your ally's combat advantage, should also increase the effectivness of combat advantage for you by X amount for 10 seconds. I'm assuming "effectiveness" means increased combat advantage damage. I don't know a ton about WKs so let me know if these additions are a bad idea.

You mentioned how Critical Teamwork used to make TRs more desirable in parties. This is a good point, I was going to make a sugestion on a team buff but it looks like the sugestion for wicked reminder from this thread's main post would do this perfectly. Here was that sugestion:

"Wicked reminder: TRs need a buff/debuff that is more useful with parties so they will have more utility in groups. Right now, WR applies a debuff which is limited by the defense reduction cap which means when compared to debuffs from other classes, it has limited use as the cap can be reached so easily, that there isn't a consistent need for it.

Our solution is to make this encounter have 3 charges, where each charge gives a 10% damage bonus for the party, instead of a defense reduction. Stealth applies 3 charges. When 3 charges are applied to target the buff lasts 6 seconds and has a maximum +30% damage bonus regardless of the number of WR hits applied after the 30% is reached."

Similarly to how a good team buff has already been sugested, it appears one of my own sugestions unwittingly has a lot in common with 2 of our older TR feats, Underhanded Tactics and Critical Teamwork. Here was that sugestion of mine:

"Deft Strike:
Make it so this power grants you and your allys combat advantage against the target for 5 seconds. Remove the ability to teleport to allies when stealthed from this power altogether, this effect tends to irritate players more often than it helps them when they mistakenly target an ally instead of an enemy. Replace this power's stealthed effect with something else, here is my suggestion: Stealthed: in addition to this power's other effects, you and you allies deal increased combat advantage damage to the target for 5 seconds and this power's range increases to 80 feet."

Here are a few more sugestions:

Each feat tree right now has one feat apeice that buffs a specific power.
For MI Scoundrels, this is Press the Advantage; for MI Executioners, this is Devastating Shroud; and for MI Sabotuers, this is Sneaky Stabber. For WK Scoundrels, this is Seething Knives; for WK Executioners, this is Detemined Pursuit; and for WK Sabotuers, this is Distracting knife.

I'm thinking MI executioner should get the old executioner feat Deadly Momentum back or something like it as a replacement for Devastating Shroud.

The MI Sabotuer's Sneaky Stabber is underwelming in PVE but would be ok for PVP stealth builds if gloaming cut gets some work done on it, I am not sure what to sugest for it but it could use some kind of improvement.

I am unsure of which WK counter parts to these feats need work done on them. Anyone have some sugestions?

wwwazza

What if -
TR encounter powers when executed from Stealth, have a % chance to renew your stealth meter. A couple of them do this already at 100% occurrence when they're used. But what if they all are assigned a % to proc and extend your ability to damage from the shadows?
It would be as if you struck the foe and managed to remain in their blind spot.
It wouldn't happen every time.

The chance to proc ought to be higher when facing foes 1:1, making you more formidable in that arena; a smaller chance to proc when facing a mob since more eyes may be upon you.
And I was also thinking that depending on what encounter power you use from shadows, some have a higher % to proc and refresh your stealth. Lashing Blade for example, would hardly ever proc when amidst a group, but Dazing Strike might since you just clobbered everyone again and they lose track of you.

There may be times where enemies are wondering "Where's the TR!? Damn it, where are they!?" and that should absolutely happen at times.


What if -
Use of any attack - At Will or Encounter Power - when executed out of stealth gives a % chance to briefly place you in pseudo-stealth, where your next strike automatically gains Combat Adv. It does not provide the stealth benefit of powers with Stealth effects.
It's simply to gain a hit with Combat Adv. damage, briefly, without doing anything special.
It's not much but would push the damage bar up a little.
Maybe the bar could be raised higher by giving rogues more Combat Adv. bonus per CHA point. And that ought to help them when in groups too yeah?


I believe TR's _should_ be entering and striking from shadows more frequently than current mechanics allow. I heard this was so in the past and it was overpowered - well, they fixed it by over-nerfing, so why not find a balance instead.
I believe Combat Adv. when owned by a TR should be something to fear for how they will next exploit it.

micky1p00

wwwazza#1611 said:

What if -
TR encounter powers when executed from Stealth, have a % chance to renew your stealth meter. A couple of them do this already at 100% occurrence when they're used. But what if they all are assigned a % to proc and extend your ability to damage from the shadows?
It would be as if you struck the foe and managed to remain in their blind spot.
It wouldn't happen every time.

The chance to proc ought to be higher when facing foes 1:1, making you more formidable in that arena; a smaller chance to proc when facing a mob since more eyes may be upon you.
And I was also thinking that depending on what encounter power you use from shadows, some have a higher % to proc and refresh your stealth. Lashing Blade for example, would hardly ever proc when amidst a group, but Dazing Strike might since you just clobbered everyone again and they lose track of you.

There may be times where enemies are wondering "Where's the TR!? Damn it, where are they!?" and that should absolutely happen at times.


What if -
Use of any attack - At Will or Encounter Power - when executed out of stealth gives a % chance to briefly place you in pseudo-stealth, where your next strike automatically gains Combat Adv. It does not provide the stealth benefit of powers with Stealth effects.
It's simply to gain a hit with Combat Adv. damage, briefly, without doing anything special.
It's not much but would push the damage bar up a little.
Maybe the bar could be raised higher by giving rogues more Combat Adv. bonus per CHA point. And that ought to help them when in groups too yeah?


I believe TR's _should_ be entering and striking from shadows more frequently than current mechanics allow. I heard this was so in the past and it was overpowered - well, they fixed it by over-nerfing, so why not find a balance instead.
I believe Combat Adv. when owned by a TR should be something to fear for how they will next exploit it.

First of all, I like the different ideas. And even if the ideas themselves wont work, maybe some will give inspiration to other ideas. But, (yup, the butt was coming ) I would like to bring up some issues:

1. 'chance' mechanic doesn't allow reliable rotation. This means increased skill gap between people who can react fast enough and make the right decision on the spot, and those that rely on 'muscle memory' to play effectively. I don't say that there shouldn't be a skill gap, on the contrary, it will make the class dull without. But it's something important to notice.

2. Stealth by itself as of now of little use. High geared players forced to stack critical chance stats anyway. So it's mainly used as SoD trigger and little else. That brings a heap of other problems like the effectiveness of SoD. But if both of those are changed then a stealth replenish change is interesting. An interesting feat can be "Your encounter attacks confuse the enemy and aid you to gain stealth -> replanish x% of the stealth meter", similarly to return to shadows. Or as you've said "X% chance to refill it", then it can create synergy with shadwoborn like feats.

3. CA is unfortunately added to crit severity, this means the added DPS from it is significantly lower than what it should be. Additional issue is that usually players have almost 90+% CA up-time even without special bonuses, and much easier with stealth, daze, and infiltrators action. So gaining more CA up-time is unfortunately redundant.

I personally would love to see CA damage separated from crit severity and then a feat, rotation synergy around it. As it's also a positioning mechanic that supposed to make the combat more interesting, but for now it's tuned down..

lordseth1985

micky1p00 said:

3. CA is unfortunately added to crit severity, this means the added DPS from it is significantly lower than what it should be. Additional issue is that usually players have almost 90+% CA up-time even without special bonuses, and much easier with stealth, daze, and infiltrators action. So gaining more CA up-time is unfortunately redundant.

I personally would love to see CA damage separated from crit severity and then a feat, rotation synergy around it. As it's also a positioning mechanic that supposed to make the combat more interesting, but for now it's tuned down..

I would love to see CA coming as multiplicative again, instead of additive. Also, as I pointed earlier, we don't want to see new ways to gain CA, BUT new ways to use it, creating some synergy with feats and powers, like Grinning Steel, from Saboteur tree: "if you have Combat Advantage, you have +x% of critical chance/severity" or something like that.

trgluestickz

micky1p00 said:

wwwazza#1611 said:

What if -
TR encounter powers when executed from Stealth, have a % chance to renew your stealth meter. A couple of them do this already at 100% occurrence when they're used. But what if they all are assigned a % to proc and extend your ability to damage from the shadows?
It would be as if you struck the foe and managed to remain in their blind spot.
It wouldn't happen every time.

The chance to proc ought to be higher when facing foes 1:1, making you more formidable in that arena; a smaller chance to proc when facing a mob since more eyes may be upon you.
And I was also thinking that depending on what encounter power you use from shadows, some have a higher % to proc and refresh your stealth. Lashing Blade for example, would hardly ever proc when amidst a group, but Dazing Strike might since you just clobbered everyone again and they lose track of you.

There may be times where enemies are wondering "Where's the TR!? Damn it, where are they!?" and that should absolutely happen at times.


What if -
Use of any attack - At Will or Encounter Power - when executed out of stealth gives a % chance to briefly place you in pseudo-stealth, where your next strike automatically gains Combat Adv. It does not provide the stealth benefit of powers with Stealth effects.
It's simply to gain a hit with Combat Adv. damage, briefly, without doing anything special.
It's not much but would push the damage bar up a little.
Maybe the bar could be raised higher by giving rogues more Combat Adv. bonus per CHA point. And that ought to help them when in groups too yeah?


I believe TR's _should_ be entering and striking from shadows more frequently than current mechanics allow. I heard this was so in the past and it was overpowered - well, they fixed it by over-nerfing, so why not find a balance instead.
I believe Combat Adv. when owned by a TR should be something to fear for how they will next exploit it.

First of all, I like the different ideas. And even if the ideas themselves wont work, maybe some will give inspiration to other ideas. But, (yup, the butt was coming ) I would like to bring up some issues:

1. 'chance' mechanic doesn't allow reliable rotation. This means increased skill gap between people who can react fast enough and make the right decision on the spot, and those that rely on 'muscle memory' to play effectively. I don't say that there shouldn't be a skill gap, on the contrary, it will make the class dull without. But it's something important to notice.

2. Stealth by itself as of now of little use. High geared players forced to stack critical chance stats anyway. So it's mainly used as SoD trigger and little else. That brings a heap of other problems like the effectiveness of SoD. But if both of those are changed then a stealth replenish change is interesting. An interesting feat can be "Your encounter attacks confuse the enemy and aid you to gain stealth -> replanish x% of the stealth meter", similarly to return to shadows. Or as you've said "X% chance to refill it", then it can create synergy with shadwoborn like feats.

3. CA is unfortunately added to crit severity, this means the added DPS from it is significantly lower than what it should be. Additional issue is that usually players have almost 90+% CA up-time even without special bonuses, and much easier with stealth, daze, and infiltrators action. So gaining more CA up-time is unfortunately redundant.

I personally would love to see CA damage separated from crit severity and then a feat, rotation synergy around it. As it's also a positioning mechanic that supposed to make the combat more interesting, but for now it's tuned down..

lordseth1985 said:

micky1p00 said:

3. CA is unfortunately added to crit severity, this means the added DPS from it is significantly lower than what it should be. Additional issue is that usually players have almost 90+% CA up-time even without special bonuses, and much easier with stealth, daze, and infiltrators action. So gaining more CA up-time is unfortunately redundant.

I personally would love to see CA damage separated from crit severity and then a feat, rotation synergy around it. As it's also a positioning mechanic that supposed to make the combat more interesting, but for now it's tuned down..

I would love to see CA coming as multiplicative again, instead of additive. Also, as I pointed earlier, we don't want to see new ways to gain CA, BUT new ways to use it, creating some synergy with feats and powers, like Grinning Steel, from Saboteur tree: "if you have Combat Advantage, you have +x% of critical chance/severity" or something like that.

For PVP, I want to see more ways to gain combat advantage added to the TR. We don't have as easy access to it as people in PVE and in PVP, CA makes up a bigger chunk of your damage.

For both PVE and PVP, I want to see more things that increase combat advantage damage and mechanics working off of combat advantage.

From what @micky1p00 is saying, it sounds like CA damage needs be seperated from crit severity to make it more viable as a major source of damage in PVE.

Hopefully the devs have gotten the memo by now that a lot of TRs really want combat advantage to have a more important role. I hope to see many more sugestions for TRs using more CA stuff pile up in this thread.

pitshade

It occurs to me that in the River District, Plaguechanged and Nasher Rogues and have been given an ability used previously by Battlewight Commanders on the SH map. A flurry attack with a semi circle AOE that ends with a prone. It's possible that the devs might reuse this for players, though it's just a wild thought.

archangelzorak01

Looks like I'm late to the party. I've been playing other games lately.

I plan on writing up a more detailed response when I'm more awake.

Until then I just want to give props to the OP's for starting this conversation. Its a conversation that had to happen and I'm glad that person's of your skill and calibre are a part of it.

So great job you guys, and to everyone participating and contributing in a positive and constructive manner. Keep up the good work and lets help steer the developers into making our class the best it can be while remaining balanced, fun and unique.

skatopsixos7

archangelzorak01 said:

Looks like I'm late to the party. I've been playing other games lately.

I plan on writing up a more detailed response when I'm more awake.

Until then I just want to give props to the OP's for starting this conversation. Its a conversation that had to happen and I'm glad that person's of your skill and calibre are a part of it.

So great job you guys, and to everyone participating and contributing in a positive and constructive manner. Keep up the good work and lets help steer the developers into making our class the best it can be while remaining balanced, fun and unique.

Galactic underwear.

i am really looking forward to your opinion aya , i'm sure it will be on point, i also hope that this work by all these great tr's will pan out, if not in full, atleast some of these changes should be implemented, and ofcourse i agree in making our class better but balanced.

but balance seems to have always been an issue.

great work guys and lets keep this up .