I was waiting to see how you would swing with AA in terms of its offensive or defensive capability, well looks you went with the latter.. this wont change anything for end game parties destroying your content unless you address the power share(from all sources not just AA). The damage mitigation seemed useful for players playing at the lower end of the spectrum. I wanted to talk about Divine Armor and the change you proposed for it. Temp hp is totally useless for a guardian fighter unless he's making of wrathful warrior (conq feat). Gf's cannot apply their guard on temp hp and cannot actively keep it for anything more than a sec or maybe 2 at most lol . Tankadins with their vast temp hp pools wouldn't even notice this abysmal amount of temp hp and Looking at how you want dc's to pursue these lesser used dailies and given their usage potential i would like to avoid conq gf's gaining a potential advantage here and so it would be better if this was shield HP. It pretty much does the same thing in terms of defensive usability but gf's can keep shield hp for a lot longer without the extra bonus damage going to conq's. Also before you start tweaking things with the dc , it is indeed recommended you go through their heroic feats since this is in such a poor state.
i never got one shot from a mob in fbi when i builded first my defences on a dd build and yes i mean and everfrost resistance.
This is a dungeon you run in order to get the better gear and the Everfrost resistance up... even those little AP stealing orcs can kill a tank who was 1 sec too late on his shield... I get the rock throw can one-shot... I get some other giant having one big hit... but when even the little dudes can do it... something needs revisiting.... even a DC should be able to take 1 hit from something... just 1... compare that to being able to take a slam from the turtle, or even a bite... and you can see there's a problem.
GEAS:
I would like to add my support to the Geas argument "either useless or completely broken". It should work on all mobs (except Named enemies), and should be broken on damage... considering how low our weapon damage is, the % of it is still too small and a companion can break it.. so might as well make it on damage taken...
However, companions should not attack a target under the effect of Geas. This will add an interesting element of mob management and positioning... but really, a better use of it is needed....
Could you look on the righteous feat named Living Fire? Pretty sure this feat is not used only because of condition. Condition should be updated for the current gameplay since DCs mostly never are below their 30% Hit Points.
I thought Divine Glow and weapon enchants was fixed in M11 already. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Actually, I think it is not. If I remember well, devs explained why DG doesn't trigger WE (sorry lazy to find the citation in the 20 pages of the WE discussion). The problem with DG is that it deals dmg but also heals and buff allies and so it is complicated to code this power in order to proc WE only on foes but not on allies. I think it is a kind of "all or nothing" situation where all effects of DG proc WE or not. so you have 2 situations: -WE doesn't proc with DG (current situation) -WE procs= foes take WE dmg but ALSO allies who are heal/buff -_-
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erosennin92Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 38Arc User
Probably not the perfect balancing, but at least a good direction has been taken . I only hope that it won't be the last DC balacing, we see for the rest 12 or so months.
Azeroth Godwill - (Half)Drow - Virtuous AC DC - iLvL 4k
I'll have to wait until the PC folks have time to play around with this, but at face value, I think the AA nerf is pretty overkill but the dmg increases to our encounters is nice.
I know people will disagree, but 80% hitpoints of a typical DPS (100k ish hp's) will be an added 80k. Will all "balls" trigger at once (meaning the DPS'er would effectively have 180k?) or will one ball be consumed per hit (meaning they effectively have 120k). If it's the latter, AA (in terms of damage mitigation) has been nerfed beyond what is reasonable (imo).
Wishlist:
1. As others have said, I REALLY hope you address the devoted cleric bug list linked above. So many of those affect skills (both DO and AC) that are used quite regularly. Be great if they actually worked properly.
2. PLEASE take a pass at our heroic feats. SO many of them are disappointing and/or don't work as you'd expect.
As a cleric these changes seem to be really good, i mean who doesnt want 30% more power right.
But looking at this from the view of other clases it becomes a very different asspect.
But then you talk about trying to balance the clases.
From the view of a DPS class this still seems fair because even at 30% there not going to get close enough to challeng the scoreboard and its the job of the support clases to look after them in dungeons etc.
OP/GF since mod 10.5 when the OP recieved yet another nerf there survivabillity has rellied alot on the cleric supporting them to tank. Also the DPS on the pally and GF was cut dramatically. Since then i see scoreboards where the clerics are already matching the damage which is where the balance comes into play. If you now go and nerf the AA and give the clerics DPS without adjusting the OP and GF you may aswell be nerfing the tanks again.
Since my cleric has been my main for years now I'm excited about soloing becoming easier. Especially with this new mod coming out and having ran through some of it on the test server. I can say it was challenging for her as a healer to get through the combat to say the least.
If I read that right and understand it correctly I feel that making AA only shield a cap of 20% would cause that particular feature of the daily to be fairly pointless, especially in harder content. Might as well not have it shield damage at all with how hard things hit. I can fully understand it needing "adjusted". It can be, and is used to make things much easier. However, I feel like it's only an issue now that it's so much in demand to be able to even get through some content. When trash mobs in FBI are able to wipe an entire 3.5k+ party who don't have a cleric able to keep up AA, then that damage needs fixing too.
No, you shouldn't have to rely on AA , but people do because for a lot of average players it's the only way to get through it in it's current state. Gutting the protection of AA like that I feel is too much of a change if you're not going to bother fixing the massive damage from enemies along with it. Dial it back a bit? Absolutely. But make it 90% like it was supposed to be, or even down as far as 50%. I feel like that would be a better start. 20% is laughable.
Now if you mean that each ball gives 20% so it would be 80% on first hit, 60% on 2nd hit etc, that's a bit better in my opinion.
Also, a good cleric built around protecting their team doesn't just "rely too heavily on AA."
It's the other players who rely too heavily on AA and starting begging for us to use it. -_- Lucky for me that it's always been a part of my build just at different stages of usefulness. But still. Thought I'd point that out because that backhand comment just slightly annoyed me.
A positive that can come from this if it does get changed is that it should at least weed out the recent influx of players who have no clue what they're are doing on their DCs. It's also going to force the party to have a good tank and make the DPSers pay more attention.
Oh, and the changes to divine armor daily sound like it would make it a good alternative, but you should really fix the bug where temp HP doesn't let GWFs use their tab or we'll be yelled at if we use it. I can hear them already.
I love the change to Divine Armor as well, but 45s CD for Hallowed Ground is a bit too much imo; I would suggest 30s.
Keep in mind that 45 seconds is only the base. If you have a decent amount of cooldown reduction—as many clerics do—this cooldown will be significantly lower. In general, when we discussed these changes, we aimed for a cooldown that resulted in being able to cast Hallowed Ground about as often as you currently can on live whether you're just leveling up, or you're running a full recovery / AP gain build.
The big difference is that with AP gain no longer blocked after using Hallowed Ground, you'll potentially be able to build up your AP and weave in another daily before building it back up and dropping Hallowed Ground once it's off cooldown. The end result is a similar uptime to what's live while not blocking your AP gain.
Divine Armor is not going to be very useful. Compared to AA it's kinda laughable. Pretty much just gives the team one extra hit from T2 critters.
After these changes, Anointed Army will now only stop at most 20% of the shielded target's maximum HP in damage on a single hit. Droviding 80% of the target's maximum HP in temporary hit points will stop 4x the amount AA can stop on a single hit. The intent for the redesigned Divine Armor is to provide an emergency shield that is just long enough to heal endangered allies back up, or provide a large shield against a single high damage AoE or targeted attack on the tank.
The issue with that is the entire subject of healing. Unlike the Devotion Pally, DC's have directional healing which means they are limited in the number of players that receive heals in a single cast. Also, as most low level adds in a dungeon such as FBI can hit for over 100k, that means if they don't go back to full health after taking one hit, the second will kill them.
This is the reason why players have gone for anything that gives full/near immunity, because even a pally with 75% DR can lose 30%+ of their normal health from a single add hit in CN if not prepared for it (speaking as a pally with 75% DR at rest).
What's actually required is a full look at damage, DR, skills in a holistic view but we know that's outside of the scope here.
Can I suggest that if you're giving a 20% shield, you do what you did with Absolution on the prot pally and make that 20% also have a 50% DR increase? That would put most DPS at around 65% DR for that shield so it is 'actually' effective and not just a blip.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Well AA still has the power sharing going for it. And quite frankly, that's all that matters for endgame. Damage > Protection still, even in Svardborg.
I run a very thick CW at ~185k HP (without guild boon) and I rarely even receive hits that could potentially kill me in a solid group.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
good changes without going too crazy overboard.
However, can someone pass through gaes and warding flare.. they have and will continue to be useless in game.
Good changes to AA but I think the majority will still see it as #1 daily. The power that it gives to the group is insane. If you compare it to other buffs/debuffs from other classes DC can profit enormously damage buff just because of 1 daily.
I really like these changes. They seem very much like what we players have been hoping for, and it will only be even better if some more of our old bugs get squished.
@dreadnaught#5263 One question: are these changes going live on Tuesday when the new mod drops or are you going to take the time to assess the feedback and make a few additional tweaks first ?
Edit: OK forget that question. I just realised these are only the suggested changes and nothing is live even on Preview yet
I was waiting to see what the changes would bring to the table, and to see if mod 11 might have content that makes DO a viable option again. Although I'm heartened to see the changes, not sure I see enough to help that goal.
Clerics can now gain Action Points while Hallowed Ground is active. To compensate for this adjustment, this power now has a 45-second cooldown (can be shortened with cooldown reduction). Ideally, we would like to get rid of these “AP gain blocks” from most, if not all, Daily powers. In cases where the intent is to make a Daily non-spammable, a cooldown allows players to at least have the option to build AP to use their other Daily, if they so desire.
Good that you can gain AP while HG is active. However the 45 second cd seems excessive. When you say "can be shortened with cooldown reduction", but by how much? "significant" has such different meanings around here.
OK, while I was trying to word this, you clarified a bit in a new comment by saying we should be able to cast it about as often as we can on live now, but additionally work in another daily. So, an AC DC will cast AA, then HG, then AA, then HG, in the time they can currently cast AA? What about the DO, is there a suggested complimentary daily? HG...??? Perhaps Hammer of Fate, if it gets a workover?
The overall intent is to increase the number of choices Devoted Clerics have rather than restricting them to a single optimal power and to improve their solo experience.
It feels like you're concentrating on the AC-AA DC, while pretty much ignoring the DO DC. So you've added to the AC toolbox by making it so they can cast HG AND AA, and left the power sharing for them, but added nothing of real "value" for the DO DC. Also, will have to look up in other threads, but aren't you moving towards capping dr debuffs at 200% total? This really hinders a debuff-oriented DO build regardless of increases in effectiveness of some of the powers/feats.
I would like to see Brand of the Sun added to the +30% damage list. Buff Prophecy of Doom, remove the cap and shorten the casting time. I like the idea of changing Terrifying Insight to extend to allies. Do a run-through on Geas, it could certainly help to have that power become useful again.
Reworking Hammer of Fate (the DO "equivalent" of Annointed Army) to extend the cc immunity, debuffs and hp increases to the party and adding a power share to the party would certainly bring this in line with AC daily. In lieu of power share, then vastly increase the amount of hp granted, and duration of the cc immunity?
I like how this rework is looking, but man, Divine Glow should proc WE please pretty please its been like centuries we're waiting for that
They have said that they're working on powers that don't proc WE (thankfully!). rgutscheradev said that they're looking at a few weeks after the new mod rollout. He was very smart to include that it's "Not a promise, but that's our current plan". http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12929597
I'm soooo happy about this! It will be great to get WE procs on DG.
You first nerfed the palahealer between mod9 and mod10, and now that you destroyed a class and everyone looks for a devoted cleric to group, you nerf him also cause palahealers were complaining about that. Nice move arc, really nice. This is all about your wrong choices, not an overpowered buff.
But i guess that this is what we are going to eat anyway cause this is what you want to give us. no matter what.
You first nerfed the palahealer between mod9 and mod10, and now that you destroyed a class and everyone looks for a devoted cleric to group, you nerf him also cause palahealers were complaining about that. Nice move arc, really nice. This is all about your wrong choices, not an overpowered buff.
But i guess that this is what we are going to eat anyway cause this is what you want to give us. no matter what.
lol, seriously? All they've nerfed is AA, everything else is a buff. This is basically the best case scenario for a rework.
If we could get some of the heroic feats reworked like Beckylunatic was suggesting, I don't think we could've expected a better outcome.
You first nerfed the palahealer between mod9 and mod10, and now that you destroyed a class and everyone looks for a devoted cleric to group, you nerf him also cause palahealers were complaining about that. Nice move arc, really nice. This is all about your wrong choices, not an overpowered buff.
But i guess that this is what we are going to eat anyway cause this is what you want to give us. no matter what.
You sound like someone who hugely rely on these "immortall spells" and thats exactly the point. AA makes the content easy asf because people don't need to move. They can facetank everything, even the hardest content. Better get some movement now
Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
2
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Now, I am primarily a DC, with over 1800 hours of playtime as a DC.
One thing I have always liked about the DC is its versatility - you could have several different "viable" builds. However, recently that has changed, at least as far as group content goes. Right now, only one DC build is sought after, namely the AA-spamming and power-sharing AC DC. DO DCs are seen as significantly inferior. This is understandable, as in groups the AA can make the party virtually invulnerable,
I have always been a DO DC, but right now I am basically felling not wanted, which is annoying. I really want the DCs to have more than just one viable build.
However, the current rework as described here does not quite do it. The DO DC still remains inferior. Yes, the AA power needs a fix - the 100% immunity it provides is trivializing some content - it basically encourages bad gameplay, and in my opinion it is just as bad as the paladin perma-bubble was.
However, I am left with the question of what the primary purpose of the DO DC is supposed to be. With thosse changes it might outperform the AC DC in PvP, but in solo og group PvE, the AC DC is still superior.
My opinion is that the DO DC needs something to compensate for the AC DC's Power sharing (which can get quite ridiculous - I mean boosting a party from 50K power to 150K...that's just silly).
Prophecy of Doom looks good on paper, but it is just broken - yes, it does decent damage, but it does not grant AP, does not recharge and empowered extended duration does not work. Whatever elso you do to tweak the DCs, this power needs a fix so it does what it is supposed to do.
Brand of the Sun is fine. I have no objection to it doing more damage, but it is fine - in particular when you have the Power of the Sun feat.
Foresight is great, in particular because it benefits group members - this one never leaves my bar.
Terrifying Insight is good when soloing - useless in a group, but that's fine - it can always be swapped out.
Hammer of Fate OK, here we have a problem. This is the DO Paragon special daily, and as such you would expect it to be powerful and popular, right? Well, instead you have something that many (maybe most) DO DCs consider pretty useless, and others use only in PvP
I am goint to state that this needs fixing. For DO to be considered viable in group content, that paragon needs a daily power that is in some sense conparable to the AC daily power (AA).
Prophetic Action Sorry, that one is so useless it's just sad. I suggest scrapping it altogether.
There are a few more issues that need fixing:
Divine Glow Does not proc weapon enchantments - this is bad, because this is a staple power for many DCs...it's the only encounter power that always stays on my bar, for example.
Warding Flare, Geas, Light of Diviinity and Hastening Light are all either broken (see bug list) or considered so useless that nobody ever uses them.
Speaking of useless - it's not just DC powers that could use a bit of rework, but feats too - Greater Fortune, Domain Synergy, Initiate of the Faith, Battlewise and Living Fire are all examples of feats that generally don't get picked as they are seen as useless.
I am sure you have those stats, or can check which feats active level 70 DCs pick. See which ones are not used and boost them to make them viable options.
Hoping for improvements...
0
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
I was waiting to see how you would swing with AA in terms of its offensive or defensive capability, well looks you went with the latter.. this wont change anything for end game parties destroying your content unless you address the power share(from all sources not just AA). The damage mitigation seemed useful for players playing at the lower end of the spectrum. I wanted to talk about Divine Armor and the change you proposed for it. Temp hp is totally useless for a guardian fighter unless he's making of wrathful warrior (conq feat). Gf's cannot apply their guard on temp hp and cannot actively keep it for anything more than a sec or maybe 2 at most lol . Tankadins with their vast temp hp pools wouldn't even notice this abysmal amount of temp hp and Looking at how you want dc's to pursue these lesser used dailies and given their usage potential i would like to avoid conq gf's gaining a potential advantage here and so it would be better if this was shield HP. It pretty much does the same thing in terms of defensive usability but gf's can keep shield hp for a lot longer without the extra bonus damage going to conq's. Also before you start tweaking things with the dc , it is indeed recommended you go through their heroic feats since this is in such a poor state.
it changes : the end game parties as you said AND i continue: not the wanna be abusing all this time this broken.
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited February 2017
To start with...I have over 1800 hours of playtime as a DO DC. What I liked originally about the DC class was its versatility, with multiple viable builds, but that is gone now - the majority just goes for AA-spamming, power-sharing AC, with only minor variations.
I approve of the changes in principle - however, I consider them insufficient to make DO a "viable" choice to AC.
To start with AA needs to be fixed - a power that is essentially being abused to grant semi-invulnerability is just as bad as the paladin perma-bubble was. It encourages bad gameplay by trivializing content.
Second, while boosting the damage of the various powers is nice, and will make it easier to build a "DPS-DC", it does not really help with making DO a "viable" choice - the AC will still outperform it in solo and group content.
To fix that, you need to look at the DO paragon powers.
Foresight is fine - no changes needed
Terrifying insight is fine as a solo buff, but currently it may get switched out when in a party. Making this somehow buff party members too would help a lot with making DOs relevant again
Brand of the Sun is fine, in particular when you have Power of the Sun
Prophecy of Doom Urgently needs fixing to make it perform like the description says it does. (see the list of known/old DC bugs above)
Hammer of Fate is the big issue.
HoF is weak - situationally useful in PvP, but pointless elsewhere. It does in no way compare to the corresponding AC daily power in usefulness. This power needs to be redesigned to make DO DCs as viable as AC DCs, otherwise everyone will just continue to play AC DCs
And yes, while you are at it, fix Divine glow to proc weapon enchants ... that's a biggie...and yes, you might want to take a look at the feats that nobody ever picks as they are seen as useless.
Post edited by adinosii on
Hoping for improvements...
2
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited February 2017
I Have to say thanks to those changes finally we will able to do a fun fbi-sva-sp.
i never got one shot from a mob in fbi when i builded first my defences on a dd build and yes i mean and everfrost resistance.
This is a dungeon you run in order to get the better gear and the Everfrost resistance up... even those little AP stealing orcs can kill a tank who was 1 sec too late on his shield... I get the rock throw can one-shot... I get some other giant having one big hit... but when even the little dudes can do it... something needs revisiting.... even a DC should be able to take 1 hit from something... just 1... compare that to being able to take a slam from the turtle, or even a bite... and you can see there's a problem.
GEAS:
I would like to add my support to the Geas argument "either useless or completely broken". It should work on all mobs (except Named enemies), and should be broken on damage... considering how low our weapon damage is, the % of it is still too small and a companion can break it.. so might as well make it on damage taken...
However, companions should not attack a target under the effect of Geas. This will add an interesting element of mob management and positioning... but really, a better use of it is needed....
THe giants you cant stop their attack but as you said you can avoid it. THE small mobs with the range attacks you can simply control them until they die. Every class has a control power and gwf for example can destroy that mob with crescendo.
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
@rjc9000 "While DO in itself is not unplayable (it still has the DC's really good base kit), AC just gets better tools. So, I ask that DO get the following two changes: -Terrifying Insight works for teammates and becomes an uncapped debuff. -Prophecy of Doom gets fixed and becomes an uncapped debuff." Love the TI idea. That alone would make the DO relevant again. And regarding the demise of our AA cheese-fest... [Begins filming a PSA for DD's titled "The Red Menace: Why you should start looking down occasionally." ]
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Very interesting changes. I've already started theorycrafting some new builds and the results are looking good. Question: will we get a free retraining token with the update?
Excellent change set. My only disappointment is that it is not already in preview and dropping with the next mod. Hopefully, the term "AA DC" will be gone forever after this. It's kind of disgusting for people ask for it so specifically, and even more for people who HAMSTER themselves out as one.
And who needs retraining tokens? I participated minimally in the winter festival and have a stack of BtA ones. The only people who don't have one are very new people and people who play with builds a lot.
Comments
I wanted to talk about Divine Armor and the change you proposed for it. Temp hp is totally useless for a guardian fighter unless he's making of wrathful warrior (conq feat). Gf's cannot apply their guard on temp hp and cannot actively keep it for anything more than a sec or maybe 2 at most lol . Tankadins with their vast temp hp pools wouldn't even notice this abysmal amount of temp hp and Looking at how you want dc's to pursue these lesser used dailies and given their usage potential i would like to avoid conq gf's gaining a potential advantage here and so it would be better if this was shield HP. It pretty much does the same thing in terms of defensive usability but gf's can keep shield hp for a lot longer without the extra bonus damage going to conq's.
Also before you start tweaking things with the dc , it is indeed recommended you go through their heroic feats since this is in such a poor state.
GEAS:
I would like to add my support to the Geas argument "either useless or completely broken". It should work on all mobs (except Named enemies), and should be broken on damage... considering how low our weapon damage is, the % of it is still too small and a companion can break it.. so might as well make it on damage taken...
However, companions should not attack a target under the effect of Geas. This will add an interesting element of mob management and positioning... but really, a better use of it is needed....
Could you look on the righteous feat named Living Fire? Pretty sure this feat is not used only because of condition. Condition should be updated for the current gameplay since DCs mostly never are below their 30% Hit Points.
so you have 2 situations:
-WE doesn't proc with DG (current situation)
-WE procs= foes take WE dmg but ALSO allies who are heal/buff -_-
Azeroth Godwill - (Half)Drow - Virtuous AC DC - iLvL 4k
I know people will disagree, but 80% hitpoints of a typical DPS (100k ish hp's) will be an added 80k. Will all "balls" trigger at once (meaning the DPS'er would effectively have 180k?) or will one ball be consumed per hit (meaning they effectively have 120k). If it's the latter, AA (in terms of damage mitigation) has been nerfed beyond what is reasonable (imo).
Wishlist:
1. As others have said, I REALLY hope you address the devoted cleric bug list linked above. So many of those affect skills (both DO and AC) that are used quite regularly. Be great if they actually worked properly.
2. PLEASE take a pass at our heroic feats. SO many of them are disappointing and/or don't work as you'd expect.
But looking at this from the view of other clases it becomes a very different asspect.
But then you talk about trying to balance the clases.
From the view of a DPS class this still seems fair because even at 30% there not going to get close enough to challeng the scoreboard and its the job of the support clases to look after them in dungeons etc.
OP/GF since mod 10.5 when the OP recieved yet another nerf there survivabillity has rellied alot on the cleric supporting them to tank. Also the DPS on the pally and GF was cut dramatically. Since then i see scoreboards where the clerics are already matching the damage which is where the balance comes into play. If you now go and nerf the AA and give the clerics DPS without adjusting the OP and GF you may aswell be nerfing the tanks again.
If I read that right and understand it correctly I feel that making AA only shield a cap of 20% would cause that particular feature of the daily to be fairly pointless, especially in harder content. Might as well not have it shield damage at all with how hard things hit.
I can fully understand it needing "adjusted". It can be, and is used to make things much easier. However, I feel like it's only an issue now that it's so much in demand to be able to even get through some content. When trash mobs in FBI are able to wipe an entire 3.5k+ party who don't have a cleric able to keep up AA, then that damage needs fixing too.
No, you shouldn't have to rely on AA , but people do because for a lot of average players it's the only way to get through it in it's current state. Gutting the protection of AA like that I feel is too much of a change if you're not going to bother fixing the massive damage from enemies along with it. Dial it back a bit? Absolutely. But make it 90% like it was supposed to be, or even down as far as 50%. I feel like that would be a better start. 20% is laughable.
Now if you mean that each ball gives 20% so it would be 80% on first hit, 60% on 2nd hit etc, that's a bit better in my opinion.
Also, a good cleric built around protecting their team doesn't just "rely too heavily on AA."
It's the other players who rely too heavily on AA and starting begging for us to use it. -_-
Lucky for me that it's always been a part of my build just at different stages of usefulness. But still. Thought I'd point that out because that backhand comment just slightly annoyed me.
A positive that can come from this if it does get changed is that it should at least weed out the recent influx of players who have no clue what they're are doing on their DCs. It's also going to force the party to have a good tank and make the DPSers pay more attention.
Oh, and the changes to divine armor daily sound like it would make it a good alternative, but you should really fix the bug where temp HP doesn't let GWFs use their tab or we'll be yelled at if we use it. I can hear them already.
This is the reason why players have gone for anything that gives full/near immunity, because even a pally with 75% DR can lose 30%+ of their normal health from a single add hit in CN if not prepared for it (speaking as a pally with 75% DR at rest).
What's actually required is a full look at damage, DR, skills in a holistic view but we know that's outside of the scope here.
Can I suggest that if you're giving a 20% shield, you do what you did with Absolution on the prot pally and make that 20% also have a 50% DR increase? That would put most DPS at around 65% DR for that shield so it is 'actually' effective and not just a blip.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I run a very thick CW at ~185k HP (without guild boon) and I rarely even receive hits that could potentially kill me in a solid group.
However, can someone pass through gaes and warding flare.. they have and will continue to be useless in game.
What about cc immun of AA?
IS still working after 4 hits?
Edit: OK forget that question. I just realised these are only the suggested changes and nothing is live even on Preview yet
OK, while I was trying to word this, you clarified a bit in a new comment by saying we should be able to cast it about as often as we can on live now, but additionally work in another daily. So, an AC DC will cast AA, then HG, then AA, then HG, in the time they can currently cast AA? What about the DO, is there a suggested complimentary daily? HG...??? Perhaps Hammer of Fate, if it gets a workover?
It feels like you're concentrating on the AC-AA DC, while pretty much ignoring the DO DC. So you've added to the AC toolbox by making it so they can cast HG AND AA, and left the power sharing for them, but added nothing of real "value" for the DO DC. Also, will have to look up in other threads, but aren't you moving towards capping dr debuffs at 200% total? This really hinders a debuff-oriented DO build regardless of increases in effectiveness of some of the powers/feats.
I would like to see Brand of the Sun added to the +30% damage list. Buff Prophecy of Doom, remove the cap and shorten the casting time. I like the idea of changing Terrifying Insight to extend to allies. Do a run-through on Geas, it could certainly help to have that power become useful again.
Reworking Hammer of Fate (the DO "equivalent" of Annointed Army) to extend the cc immunity, debuffs and hp increases to the party and adding a power share to the party would certainly bring this in line with AC daily. In lieu of power share, then vastly increase the amount of hp granted, and duration of the cc immunity?
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12929597
I'm soooo happy about this! It will be great to get WE procs on DG.
But i guess that this is what we are going to eat anyway cause this is what you want to give us. no matter what.
If we could get some of the heroic feats reworked like Beckylunatic was suggesting, I don't think we could've expected a better outcome.
One thing I have always liked about the DC is its versatility - you could have several different "viable" builds. However, recently that has changed, at least as far as group content goes. Right now, only one DC build is sought after, namely the AA-spamming and power-sharing AC DC. DO DCs are seen as significantly inferior. This is understandable, as in groups the AA can make the party virtually invulnerable,
I have always been a DO DC, but right now I am basically felling not wanted, which is annoying. I really want the DCs to have more than just one viable build.
However, the current rework as described here does not quite do it. The DO DC still remains inferior. Yes, the AA power needs a fix - the 100% immunity it provides is trivializing some content - it basically encourages bad gameplay, and in my opinion it is just as bad as the paladin perma-bubble was.
However, I am left with the question of what the primary purpose of the DO DC is supposed to be. With thosse changes it might outperform the AC DC in PvP, but in solo og group PvE, the AC DC is still superior.
My opinion is that the DO DC needs something to compensate for the AC DC's Power sharing (which can get quite ridiculous - I mean boosting a party from 50K power to 150K...that's just silly).
Prophecy of Doom looks good on paper, but it is just broken - yes, it does decent damage, but it does not grant AP, does not recharge and empowered extended duration does not work. Whatever elso you do to tweak the DCs, this power needs a fix so it does what it is supposed to do.
Brand of the Sun is fine. I have no objection to it doing more damage, but it is fine - in particular when you have the Power of the Sun feat.
Foresight is great, in particular because it benefits group members - this one never leaves my bar.
Terrifying Insight is good when soloing - useless in a group, but that's fine - it can always be swapped out.
Hammer of Fate OK, here we have a problem. This is the DO Paragon special daily, and as such you would expect it to be powerful and popular, right? Well, instead you have something that many (maybe most) DO DCs consider pretty useless, and others use only in PvP
I am goint to state that this needs fixing. For DO to be considered viable in group content, that paragon needs a daily power that is in some sense conparable to the AC daily power (AA).
Prophetic Action Sorry, that one is so useless it's just sad. I suggest scrapping it altogether.There are a few more issues that need fixing:
Divine Glow Does not proc weapon enchantments - this is bad, because this is a staple power for many DCs...it's the only encounter power that always stays on my bar, for example.
Warding Flare, Geas, Light of Diviinity and Hastening Light are all either broken (see bug list) or considered so useless that nobody ever uses them.
Speaking of useless - it's not just DC powers that could use a bit of rework, but feats too - Greater Fortune, Domain Synergy, Initiate of the Faith, Battlewise and Living Fire are all examples of feats that generally don't get picked as they are seen as useless.
I am sure you have those stats, or can check which feats active level 70 DCs pick. See which ones are not used and boost them to make them viable options.
I approve of the changes in principle - however, I consider them insufficient to make DO a "viable" choice to AC.
To start with AA needs to be fixed - a power that is essentially being abused to grant semi-invulnerability is just as bad as the paladin perma-bubble was. It encourages bad gameplay by trivializing content.
Second, while boosting the damage of the various powers is nice, and will make it easier to build a "DPS-DC", it does not really help with making DO a "viable" choice - the AC will still outperform it in solo and group content.
To fix that, you need to look at the DO paragon powers.
Foresight is fine - no changes needed
Terrifying insight is fine as a solo buff, but currently it may get switched out when in a party. Making this somehow buff party members too would help a lot with making DOs relevant again
Brand of the Sun is fine, in particular when you have Power of the Sun
Prophecy of Doom Urgently needs fixing to make it perform like the description says it does. (see the list of known/old DC bugs above)
Hammer of Fate is the big issue.
HoF is weak - situationally useful in PvP, but pointless elsewhere. It does in no way compare to the corresponding AC daily power in usefulness. This power needs to be redesigned to make DO DCs as viable as AC DCs, otherwise everyone will just continue to play AC DCs
And yes, while you are at it, fix Divine glow to proc weapon enchants ... that's a biggie...and yes, you might want to take a look at the feats that nobody ever picks as they are seen as useless.THE small mobs with the range attacks you can simply control them until they die. Every class has a control power and gwf for example can destroy that mob with crescendo.
"While DO in itself is not unplayable (it still has the DC's really good base kit), AC just gets better tools. So, I ask that DO get the following two changes:
-Terrifying Insight works for teammates and becomes an uncapped debuff.
-Prophecy of Doom gets fixed and becomes an uncapped debuff."
Love the TI idea. That alone would make the DO relevant again.
And regarding the demise of our AA cheese-fest...
[Begins filming a PSA for DD's titled "The Red Menace: Why you should start looking down occasionally." ]
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
And who needs retraining tokens? I participated minimally in the winter festival and have a stack of BtA ones. The only people who don't have one are very new people and people who play with builds a lot.