Ok, since you decide what powers multiproc or not I won't think about them any more, lol. Did you test those procs in a fully buffed party allready? I didn't. As far as I know WE scale with power... About the classpowers it is predictable, that lot's of them will be from no interest if using those enchants. You will end up circeling arround one encounter (Hadar grasp) and one AtWill (HoB) and one daily (FoP) being your best single and aoe-spell at once, dealing 5 times the ammount of DPS as WB vor Firy Blast will do. You really don't see what this leads to? ATM i situationally use, WB, DT, FB, BoVA, SS, KF and a selection of dailies.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited February 2017
Some info about GWF:
If we look at the standard skillset of WMS, Sure Strike, Daring Shout/Battle Fury, IBS, Hidden Daggers, Crescendo/Slam we find the following:
Assuming weapon enchant is Bilethorn and abilities are all rank 4, as well as an average weapon damage of 2467.5 (Average of new weapons at legendary) plus a single target fight:
WMS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.8)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.495+0.45)*1.3) = 0.60846392085, which is a ~60.8% damage increase.
Sure Strike Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.43*2+0.48+0.857997913)/4*1.3) = 0.52320195738, which is a ~52.3% damage increase.
Daring Shout does no damage but procs enchants twice, can't consider.
Battle Fury does no damage and does not proc enchants, can't consider.
Slam does not proc enchants, can't consider.
Hidden Daggers Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(1.853177636)) = 0.20168005275, which is a ~20.2% damage increase.
Crescendo Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.8)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.5*3+3)*1.36) = 0.12214018411, which is a ~12.2% damage increase.
IBS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*2.700002399*1.3) = 0.10648109154, which is a ~10.65% damage increase.
At most (assuming 100% crit chance, no CA, 75% crit sev) vorp is 2.25/1.75-1 = 0.28571428571, which is a ~28.57% damage increase.
Bugs: GWF WE Multiprocs.
Daring Shout, Crescendo and WMS all proc weapon enchantments more than once. These abilities are not entities and thus should only proc weapon enchantments once.
Bug: Abilities not Proccing WEs:
Slam is not proccing WEs. It should proc WEs once. Considering Battle Fury doesn't hit anything, it not proccing enchants is likely not a bug.
If the multiproc bug is fixed, the following will change:
WMS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.495+0.45)*1.3) = 0.30423196042, which is a ~30.42% damage increase.
Crescendo Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.5*3+3)*1.36) = 0.06107009205, which is a ~6.1% damage increase.
Damn I was enjoying my popcorn then the A team had to arrive and clean up the mess with actual tests and facts. At least they were courteous enough to bring Fried Chicken!
Good solid work guys...ty for bringing back sanity to this thread.
@thefabricant that is with the base WE percentages? Because I had Bilethorn with these stats
(which can go much much higher)
Yes. Just ignore the updating tooltip of those enchants, it still does 40% weapon damage (15%+25% of AoE) it is just that it is multiplied by buffs. I knew a scaling tooltip would just cause confusion but in their infinite wisdom the devs decided to scale the tooltip as well.
Well, we haven't even considered GWF +%damage from feats and there you have it. Once things like Destroyer's Purpose and Focused Destroyer enter the picture, expect truly massive values. These are straight up +%damage buffs, so they're not even subject to the debuff cap (ie, more damage in parties). Not to mention how since feats like Executioner's Gift (warlock feat) works on WEs, I suspect Executioner's Style also does. I think the damage value difference between both feats sums up the gap between the +%damage boni of warriors and casters nicely - despite both of them being T4 feats, Executioner's Style is twice as powerful. And yet we don't whine about that because we have (had) our multiprocs.
CWs have their Spell Twisting, so I don't think it really matters for them either way.
Ok, since you decide what powers multiproc or not I won't think about them any more, lol.,,
Spare me the sarcasm. I'm simply telling you what I know, which is something you obviously don't. People need to know these things if they are to make informed opinions.
Did you test those procs in a fully buffed party allready? I didn't.
And that's relevant because...? The people here are already discussing the debuff cap and the interaction of WE procs with +%damage buffs. I don't see how anything else is relevant, unless you're interested in exploits. We're not.
You will end up circeling arround one encounter (Hadar grasp) and one AtWill (HoB) and one daily (FoP) being your best single and aoe-spell at once, dealing 5 times the ammount of DPS as WB vor Firy Blast will do. You really don't see what this leads to? ATM i situationally use, WB, DT, FB, BoVA, SS, KF and a selection of dailies.
Didn't I already say that the several of the SWs here already play proc builds on live? We already know how to play these builds, thanks.
Like I said, HoB is a single target power. You've gone nuts if you're using it against mobs vs Eldritch Blast, regardless of the extra (single target) procs. It's amazing for single target, obviously, which is only fair because its a melee power on a class that lacks a true dodge.
Hadar's Grasp is not a spammable encounter outside of -cooldown parties in which case there are far more broken setups (perma IBS, perma Disintegrate, etc). It is basically competing with Killing Flames for damage except it only does about 20-40% more damage than the MINIMUM damage of Killing Flames, and with significantly higher CD. It also does this damage over a duration, so monsters can die before it even finishes (especially with Curse Consume, where the duration is extended). Killing Flames also gets a damage multiplier as the target's HP decreases, which means that it scales better with Vorpal/Dread. I think it only makes sense that Hadar's Grasp better scale with other WEs. The most important thing to consider though is that Vorpal/Dread users can use BOTH KF/HG freely and get full benefit from crit sev, while in comparison KF only has 1 WE proc for a non-Vorpal/Dread user. You do the math. Finally, HG's 14 procs requires Curse Consume. That means extra casting time. Bottomline, I'm not really sure why you think HG has an unfair advantage here. Edit: At zero power, and using a 1000-1000 damage test weapon, 25% WE damage per proc (for comparison's sake) and assuming you perfect the art of re-cursing a target immediately after using Curse Consume, WE procs basically increase HG damage by around 42.8% at 14 WE procs per cast (all non crit). Killing Flames damage is increased by a mere 5.6% at minimum value (one WE proc). Note that these are ballpark values. Anyway WE proc damage is not affected by Killing Flames' damage bonus so that damage increase is going to get smaller and smaller as the target loses HP, while Vorpal/Dread gets stronger.
I suspect Flames of Phlegethos proc rate is merely an oversight. It's an AoE power that tracks the target when cast hence the slightly lower damage (in comparison, the horrors spawned by Brood of Hadar can lose their target). I'm not sure why you're comparing it to powers like Fiery Blast which have very low CD, and so are much more spammable. For the record, there's only a 5 proc difference Brood of Hadar and FoP. WB is good damage, heals and a 15% DR. I'm not sure why you're comparing a damage/defense/utility power to a pure damage power.
Atm, Vorpal/Dread benefits all the others powers you mentioned. That means 50-75% more damage on a crit. Non-Dread/Vorpal powers only proc once/twice on these powers atm, for like 80% or so (scaling) WEAPON damage per cast. I'm not sure in what universe that's suppose to work out better for warlocks not using Vorpal/Dread.
Post edited by tyrtallow on
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
So that versus (let's say) 25% weapon damage per proc from a non-Vorpal/Dread. That actually sounds more reasonable especially on mid-damage nukes like Curse Bite/Fiery Bolt (non-Dread/Vorpal WE procs account for roughly 7.5% extra damage per proc at zero power on these encounters, with 1-2 procs per target per cast) but on skills like Dreadtheft (channel power) and on high damage nukes like KF (except HG, which multiprocs) it's still a massive DPS loss.
Post edited by tyrtallow on
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How many enemies in pve will the frost enchantment be able to affect at one time? Will the twenty second cooldown stop when leaving combat? Will I need to use aoe abilities only with frost enchant to get the best use?
@thefabricant just for clarity the Vorpal increase of 28.57% is essentially comparing to Bilethorn WMS boost of 60.5%? Good lawd.
As a DPS GF I wonder if the numbers for me would be similar to the GWF with Bilethorn.
@crizpynutz no, realistically, vorp is not a 28.57% dps increase, that is the, "ideal" situation. In a more likely set of circumstances it is more like 20-25%.
For GF, if you assume the skills used for dps are Crushing Surge, WMS, Griffon's Wrath, Anvil of Doom, ITF, Knight's Challenge, Villian's Menace, Enforced Threat and Knee Breaker, you should find the following:
Assumed Conditions rank 4 powers, Enchantment in question is Bilethorn and average weapon damage of 2056.5.
Knee Breaker: (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*(1.619996132+0.5399992372*14)) = 0.04018637692, which is roughly a 4% damage increase.
Crushing Surge: (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*1.3*(1.593592961*2+1.991996272)/3) = 0.164375679, which is roughly a 16.4% damage increase.
Weapon Master's Strike: (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*1.3*(0.8000009056+0.5999991581)) = 0.20269798835, which is roughly a 20.2% damage increase.
Griffon's Wrath: (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*1.3*(2.879997176)) = 0.09853384544, which is roughly a 9.85% damage increase.
Anvil (Above 50% HP): (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*1.3*(4.319990693)) = 0.0656893074, which is roughly a 6.5% damage increase.
Enforced Threat: (0.8*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*1.3*(2.700001789)) = 0.21020519154, which is roughly a 21% damage increase.
Villian's Menace: (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*(2.399998361)) = 0.15371275313, which is roughly a 15.4% damage increase.
ITF does not proc weapon enchantments or deal damage.
Knight's Challenge does not deal damage, but procs bilethorn once.
The above should give you some idea for GF. It is interesting to note that GF WMS works differently from GWF WMS and does not proc enchants twice. However, Enforced Threat does proc weapon enchants twice.
Also, just to clarify, I am not saying Bilethorn is best, I am simply using it in these examples because I cba to test every enchant on every class and would rather compare a single enchant to vorp and the 1 I decided to test on other classes is bilethorn. Another enchant may very well be better than bile/vorp, but you would need to check that yourself.
Wow thanks @thefabricant that was far more information than I hoped for. I appreciate it, thank you. I did a little testing but was first looking into DC and the support WE types but they keep changing them and they all seem to be broken or insufficient to some degree on preview. I hadn't looked at Bilethorn or Lightning yet. This helps tremendously, so again ty.
As for best one thing your example of GF vs GWF shows is that it's not a straightforward answer. The numbers vary quite bit and the difference of say Vorpal and Bilethorn is much different on the two class builds.
@tyrtallow i agree that CWs have spell twisting, and that SWs are quite under them in power, but CWs need WE multiproccs to hope to match most dps classes (most notably the HR and GWF)
well the weapon enchants based on debuff are all broken one way or the other , but i noticed flaming enchant's subsequent hits are all respecting RI now , thats a good change .. ty , probably still not good enough to compete with the others but this is better than what it was before. I really had high hopes on this .. this is the enchant you guys are releasing as revamped from your new lockbox but this probably will bite the dust compared to the others.
If we look at the standard skillset of WMS, Sure Strike, Daring Shout/Battle Fury, IBS, Hidden Daggers, Crescendo/Slam we find the following:
Assuming weapon enchant is Bilethorn and abilities are all rank 4, as well as an average weapon damage of 2467.5 (Average of new weapons at legendary) plus a single target fight:
WMS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.8)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.495+0.45)*1.3) = 0.60846392085, which is a ~60.8% damage increase.
Sure Strike Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.43*2+0.48+0.857997913)/4*1.3) = 0.52320195738, which is a ~52.3% damage increase.
Daring Shout does no damage but procs enchants twice, can't consider.
Battle Fury does no damage and does not proc enchants, can't consider.
Slam does not proc enchants, can't consider.
Hidden Daggers Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(1.853177636)) = 0.20168005275, which is a ~20.2% damage increase.
Crescendo Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.8)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.5*3+3)*1.36) = 0.12214018411, which is a ~12.2% damage increase.
IBS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*2.700002399*1.3) = 0.10648109154, which is a ~10.65% damage increase.
At most (assuming 100% crit chance, no CA, 75% crit sev) vorp is 2.25/1.75-1 = 0.28571428571, which is a ~28.57% damage increase.
As we can see above, Bile beats Vorp hands down for GWF, no discussion.
Bugs: GWF WE Multiprocs.
Daring Shout, Crescendo and WMS all proc weapon enchantments more than once. These abilities are not entities and thus should only proc weapon enchantments once.
Bug: Abilities not Proccing WEs:
Slam is not proccing WEs. It should proc WEs once. Considering Battle Fury doesn't hit anything, it not proccing enchants is likely not a bug.
If the multiproc bug is fixed, the following will change:
WMS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.495+0.45)*1.3) = 0.30423196042, which is a ~30.42% damage increase.
Crescendo Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.5*3+3)*1.36) = 0.06107009205, which is a ~6.1% damage increase.
These numbers seem far more reasonable.
wont u get the same results like on sure strike if u use this formula for any at will on any class?theoretic 50% improve with trans bile and this 50% quite far from reality ,bile preformed bad on my gwf 19% of my damage so aprox like terror or holy or quite worse then 20-40% of lightning
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Lightning procs 14 times from HG and arc visually jumps over on harmless chicken and habitants of Caer-Konig (do I need a pic to prove it?) To some degree caster needs multiprocs on some encounter, otherwise those weaponsenchant won´t be from any interest imo.
Fried Chicken
Bilethorn+HoB
that picture is definitely amusing. I would notice similar issues on CW, where lightning was hitting my wizard for 0 damage. It isn't really much of an inconvenience except for the screen spam though so I didn't bother to report it. It doesn't pop CW shield so if for some reason you using shield, you won't have to worry about that.
The fact that combat effects can proc on/from neutral NPC entities is why we have things like the persistent issue where every effect that procs on deflect causes the player to act like they're in combat even though they're not, and similar problems.
If we look at the standard skillset of WMS, Sure Strike, Daring Shout/Battle Fury, IBS, Hidden Daggers, Crescendo/Slam we find the following:
Assuming weapon enchant is Bilethorn and abilities are all rank 4, as well as an average weapon damage of 2467.5 (Average of new weapons at legendary) plus a single target fight:
WMS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.8)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.495+0.45)*1.3) = 0.60846392085, which is a ~60.8% damage increase.
Sure Strike Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.43*2+0.48+0.857997913)/4*1.3) = 0.52320195738, which is a ~52.3% damage increase.
Daring Shout does no damage but procs enchants twice, can't consider.
Battle Fury does no damage and does not proc enchants, can't consider.
Slam does not proc enchants, can't consider.
Hidden Daggers Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(1.853177636)) = 0.20168005275, which is a ~20.2% damage increase.
Crescendo Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.8)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.5*3+3)*1.36) = 0.12214018411, which is a ~12.2% damage increase.
IBS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*2.700002399*1.3) = 0.10648109154, which is a ~10.65% damage increase.
At most (assuming 100% crit chance, no CA, 75% crit sev) vorp is 2.25/1.75-1 = 0.28571428571, which is a ~28.57% damage increase.
As we can see above, Bile beats Vorp hands down for GWF, no discussion.
Bugs: GWF WE Multiprocs.
Daring Shout, Crescendo and WMS all proc weapon enchantments more than once. These abilities are not entities and thus should only proc weapon enchantments once.
Bug: Abilities not Proccing WEs:
Slam is not proccing WEs. It should proc WEs once. Considering Battle Fury doesn't hit anything, it not proccing enchants is likely not a bug.
If the multiproc bug is fixed, the following will change:
WMS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.495+0.45)*1.3) = 0.30423196042, which is a ~30.42% damage increase.
Crescendo Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.5*3+3)*1.36) = 0.06107009205, which is a ~6.1% damage increase.
These numbers seem far more reasonable.
wont u get the same results like on sure strike if u use this formula for any at will on any class?theoretic 50% improve with trans bile and this 50% quite far from reality ,bile preformed bad on my gwf 19% of my damage so aprox like terror or holy or quite worse then 20-40% of lightning
No, you won't. This formula depends primarily upon the ratio between the ability coefficient and the percentage weapon damage dealt by the enchant. Furthermore, it is a skill by skill comparison, not a rotation comparison. These values differ from skill to skill and you will see vasty different results depending on which at wills (or any skill) you compare. As for, "Vastly different from reality" it actually isn't, I have spoken to other people who actually tested these enchants properly and there was quite a lot of similarities between their results and mine.
The consistent thing seems to be that high damage powers benefit significantly less from from WE procs, while fast-hitting powers (like at-wills, and especially at-wills with an AoE effect, gain a significant damage increase. Because WE procs are now scaling, it makes sense.
@tyrtallow i agree that CWs have spell twisting, and that SWs are quite under them in power, but CWs need WE multiproccs to hope to match most dps classes (most notably the HR and GWF)
The problem is that non-Vorp/Dread SWs also rely on specific multiproc encounters to keep up with other striker classes, which is the whole point of why some of us are so adamant that they give back at least some of our multiproc capability. Right now the only saving grace of our go-to encounter, Dreadtheft, is that it allows us to use at-wills while its up. As a lot of people here have already pointed out though we don't exactly see this as WAI.
Post edited by tyrtallow on
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Atm there a few ways to build arround those enchants for a warlock, and it will result in a pretty poor collection of powers, leading to a awefull setup. Multiprocs are need somehow, but it´s hard to not overpower those effect imo. Btw., I can´t cast any at will or encounter by using DT , animation starts but ACT doesn´t show any effect.
About GWF I can see that he is scaling better than any class with these enchants (due to selfbuffs "lolseteffect") and at 70k power Bilethorn is far above 100% weapondamage, but it is allways about 20% from my allover dps (single). So it is a steady bonus somehow. I did not see any results from dungeonruns so far, how disbalancing or not all those changes are.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Atm there a few ways to build arround those enchants for a warlock, and it will result in a pretty poor collection of powers, leading to a awefull setup. Multiprocs are need somehow, but it´s hard to not overpower those effect imo. Btw., I can´t cast any at will or encounter by using DT , animation starts but ACT doesn´t show any effect.
About GWF I can see that he is scaling better than any class with these enchants (due to selfbuffs "lolseteffect") and at 70k power Bilethorn is far above 100% weapondamage, but it is allways about 20% from my allover dps (single). So it is a steady bonus somehow. I did not see any results from dungeonruns so far, how disbalancing or not all those changes are.
Just add back multiproc for DT and fix being able to use at-wills while channeling it. I'll take that trade off any day.
Make harrow multi proc like CoI. It's useless now anyway for dealing damage. At least then it'll be something different to use for a change. It will always be inferior to CoI even with multi proc. As it won't trigger spell storm, has less uptime, no smolder ticks, doesn't chill which leads to freezing.
It's HAMSTER to begin with. SW is the damage dealer, or it supposed to be. Conduit turns into a high tier dps power while SWs get nothing later on. No kind of power synergy with things.
Make SWs fun again.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited February 2017
I know it sounds boring but i think the best and easiest way to handle WEs would be ignore the weapon damage % and simple attatch to each attack a % of extra (y)kind damage, each WE would simply be caracterized by a little extra effect and for powers working way to well with certain enchants apply a target amount limit. The developers already mentioned that this might be problematic but honestly from picking a simple path with some rocks in the way and picking a rocky path with some planes in the way....
@treesclimber the devs are right. Some classes would benefit more from it than others: 1- if multiproccs are allowed, DoTs classes like HR, CW and SW would benefit more 2- if singleproccs are allowed, burst damage classes, like GF and GWF would benefit more from it.
@treesclimber the devs are right. Some classes would benefit more from it than others:
1- if multiproccs are allowed, DoTs classes like HR, CW and SW would benefit more
2- if singleproccs are allowed, burst damage classes, like GF and GWF would benefit more from it.
I guess it is impossible to get this right. If you cap those multiprocs it is from no use not on single and not on multiple targets for a caster class. If you make things multiproc it is a huge aoe effect (some encounter are overperforming somehow) and maybe viable on a single target. If you only give some powers like DT and BovA and Hadar grasp multiprocs , other encounter will be laughable weak like WB.
Anyway, even doing so warlock will have issues to stand against a fully buffed GWF spamming waeapon master strike in a mobgroup getting 4 procs on mouseclick in a very short time i am sure. Those enchants multiproc also on GWF power, Sure strike is 2 procs per hit, WMS 4 procs and Hand of blight 4 procs in melee. But that´s theorizing, I did not do one dungeonrun vs a GWF or CW so far.
(The actual result may be that 1 or 2 still don't work for some super-weird reason, and some random "buff your friend" power shoots lightning bolts, but that's OK, it will be a small number of cases that we can, I hope, fix pretty easily.)
I'm totally going to run my DC with trans. lightning
Thank you for the excellent engagement with the players.
Comments
Did you test those procs in a fully buffed party allready? I didn't.
As far as I know WE scale with power...
About the classpowers it is predictable, that lot's of them will be from no interest if using those enchants.
You will end up circeling arround one encounter (Hadar grasp) and one AtWill (HoB) and one daily (FoP) being your best single and aoe-spell at once, dealing 5 times the ammount of DPS as WB vor Firy Blast will do.
You really don't see what this leads to?
ATM i situationally use, WB, DT, FB, BoVA, SS, KF and a selection of dailies.
If we look at the standard skillset of WMS, Sure Strike, Daring Shout/Battle Fury, IBS, Hidden Daggers, Crescendo/Slam we find the following:
Assuming weapon enchant is Bilethorn and abilities are all rank 4, as well as an average weapon damage of 2467.5 (Average of new weapons at legendary) plus a single target fight:
WMS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.8)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.495+0.45)*1.3) = 0.60846392085, which is a ~60.8% damage increase.
Sure Strike Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.43*2+0.48+0.857997913)/4*1.3) = 0.52320195738, which is a ~52.3% damage increase.
Daring Shout does no damage but procs enchants twice, can't consider.
Battle Fury does no damage and does not proc enchants, can't consider.
Slam does not proc enchants, can't consider.
Hidden Daggers Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(1.853177636)) = 0.20168005275, which is a ~20.2% damage increase.
Crescendo Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.8)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.5*3+3)*1.36) = 0.12214018411, which is a ~12.2% damage increase.
IBS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*2.700002399*1.3) = 0.10648109154, which is a ~10.65% damage increase.
At most (assuming 100% crit chance, no CA, 75% crit sev) vorp is 2.25/1.75-1 = 0.28571428571, which is a ~28.57% damage increase.
Bugs: GWF WE Multiprocs.
Daring Shout, Crescendo and WMS all proc weapon enchantments more than once. These abilities are not entities and thus should only proc weapon enchantments once.
Bug: Abilities not Proccing WEs:
Slam is not proccing WEs. It should proc WEs once. Considering Battle Fury doesn't hit anything, it not proccing enchants is likely not a bug.
If the multiproc bug is fixed, the following will change:
WMS Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.495+0.45)*1.3) = 0.30423196042, which is a ~30.42% damage increase.
Crescendo Damage Boost: (2467.5*0.4)/((173.31+2467.5)*(0.5*3+3)*1.36) = 0.06107009205, which is a ~6.1% damage increase.
These numbers seem far more reasonable.
Good solid work guys...ty for bringing back sanity to this thread.
(which can go much much higher)
Once things like Destroyer's Purpose and Focused Destroyer enter the picture, expect truly massive values. These are straight up +%damage buffs, so they're not even subject to the debuff cap (ie, more damage in parties).
Not to mention how since feats like Executioner's Gift (warlock feat) works on WEs, I suspect Executioner's Style also does. I think the damage value difference between both feats sums up the gap between the +%damage boni of warriors and casters nicely - despite both of them being T4 feats, Executioner's Style is twice as powerful.
And yet we don't whine about that because we have (had) our multiprocs.
CWs have their Spell Twisting, so I don't think it really matters for them either way.
Spare me the sarcasm. I'm simply telling you what I know, which is something you obviously don't. People need to know these things if they are to make informed opinions. And that's relevant because...? The people here are already discussing the debuff cap and the interaction of WE procs with +%damage buffs. I don't see how anything else is relevant, unless you're interested in exploits. We're not. We know, and if you read the rest of the thread you'd know this too. It scales with buffs, debuffs and most stats. Didn't I already say that the several of the SWs here already play proc builds on live?
We already know how to play these builds, thanks.
Like I said, HoB is a single target power. You've gone nuts if you're using it against mobs vs Eldritch Blast, regardless of the extra (single target) procs. It's amazing for single target, obviously, which is only fair because its a melee power on a class that lacks a true dodge.
Hadar's Grasp is not a spammable encounter outside of -cooldown parties in which case there are far more broken setups (perma IBS, perma Disintegrate, etc). It is basically competing with Killing Flames for damage except it only does about 20-40% more damage than the MINIMUM damage of Killing Flames, and with significantly higher CD. It also does this damage over a duration, so monsters can die before it even finishes (especially with Curse Consume, where the duration is extended). Killing Flames also gets a damage multiplier as the target's HP decreases, which means that it scales better with Vorpal/Dread. I think it only makes sense that Hadar's Grasp better scale with other WEs.
The most important thing to consider though is that Vorpal/Dread users can use BOTH KF/HG freely and get full benefit from crit sev, while in comparison KF only has 1 WE proc for a non-Vorpal/Dread user. You do the math.
Finally, HG's 14 procs requires Curse Consume. That means extra casting time.
Bottomline, I'm not really sure why you think HG has an unfair advantage here.
Edit:
At zero power, and using a 1000-1000 damage test weapon, 25% WE damage per proc (for comparison's sake) and assuming you perfect the art of re-cursing a target immediately after using Curse Consume, WE procs basically increase HG damage by around 42.8% at 14 WE procs per cast (all non crit). Killing Flames damage is increased by a mere 5.6% at minimum value (one WE proc). Note that these are ballpark values.
Anyway WE proc damage is not affected by Killing Flames' damage bonus so that damage increase is going to get smaller and smaller as the target loses HP, while Vorpal/Dread gets stronger.
I suspect Flames of Phlegethos proc rate is merely an oversight. It's an AoE power that tracks the target when cast hence the slightly lower damage (in comparison, the horrors spawned by Brood of Hadar can lose their target). I'm not sure why you're comparing it to powers like Fiery Blast which have very low CD, and so are much more spammable.
For the record, there's only a 5 proc difference Brood of Hadar and FoP.
WB is good damage, heals and a 15% DR. I'm not sure why you're comparing a damage/defense/utility power to a pure damage power.
Atm, Vorpal/Dread benefits all the others powers you mentioned. That means 50-75% more damage on a crit. Non-Dread/Vorpal powers only proc once/twice on these powers atm, for like 80% or so (scaling) WEAPON damage per cast.
I'm not sure in what universe that's suppose to work out better for warlocks not using Vorpal/Dread.
As a DPS GF I wonder if the numbers for me would be similar to the GWF with Bilethorn.
For GF, if you assume the skills used for dps are Crushing Surge, WMS, Griffon's Wrath, Anvil of Doom, ITF, Knight's Challenge, Villian's Menace, Enforced Threat and Knee Breaker, you should find the following:
Assumed Conditions rank 4 powers, Enchantment in question is Bilethorn and average weapon damage of 2056.5.
Knee Breaker: (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*(1.619996132+0.5399992372*14)) = 0.04018637692, which is roughly a 4% damage increase.
Crushing Surge: (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*1.3*(1.593592961*2+1.991996272)/3) = 0.164375679, which is roughly a 16.4% damage increase.
Weapon Master's Strike: (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*1.3*(0.8000009056+0.5999991581)) = 0.20269798835, which is roughly a 20.2% damage increase.
Griffon's Wrath: (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*1.3*(2.879997176)) = 0.09853384544, which is roughly a 9.85% damage increase.
Anvil (Above 50% HP): (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*1.3*(4.319990693)) = 0.0656893074, which is roughly a 6.5% damage increase.
Enforced Threat: (0.8*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*1.3*(2.700001789)) = 0.21020519154, which is roughly a 21% damage increase.
Villian's Menace: (0.4*2056.5)/((173.31+2056.5)*(2.399998361)) = 0.15371275313, which is roughly a 15.4% damage increase.
ITF does not proc weapon enchantments or deal damage.
Knight's Challenge does not deal damage, but procs bilethorn once.
The above should give you some idea for GF. It is interesting to note that GF WMS works differently from GWF WMS and does not proc enchants twice. However, Enforced Threat does proc weapon enchants twice.
Also, just to clarify, I am not saying Bilethorn is best, I am simply using it in these examples because I cba to test every enchant on every class and would rather compare a single enchant to vorp and the 1 I decided to test on other classes is bilethorn. Another enchant may very well be better than bile/vorp, but you would need to check that yourself.
As for best one thing your example of GF vs GWF shows is that it's not a straightforward answer. The numbers vary quite bit and the difference of say Vorpal and Bilethorn is much different on the two class builds.
@thefabricant - Can you explain that formula?
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Right now the only saving grace of our go-to encounter, Dreadtheft, is that it allows us to use at-wills while its up. As a lot of people here have already pointed out though we don't exactly see this as WAI.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Btw., I can´t cast any at will or encounter by using DT , animation starts but ACT doesn´t show any effect.
About GWF I can see that he is scaling better than any class with these enchants (due to selfbuffs "lolseteffect") and at 70k power Bilethorn is far above 100% weapondamage, but it is allways about 20% from my allover dps (single). So it is a steady bonus somehow.
I did not see any results from dungeonruns so far, how disbalancing or not all those changes are.
Make harrow multi proc like CoI. It's useless now anyway for dealing damage. At least then it'll be something different to use for a change. It will always be inferior to CoI even with multi proc. As it won't trigger spell storm, has less uptime, no smolder ticks, doesn't chill which leads to freezing.
It's HAMSTER to begin with. SW is the damage dealer, or it supposed to be. Conduit turns into a high tier dps power while SWs get nothing later on. No kind of power synergy with things.
Make SWs fun again.
1- if multiproccs are allowed, DoTs classes like HR, CW and SW would benefit more
2- if singleproccs are allowed, burst damage classes, like GF and GWF would benefit more from it.
If you cap those multiprocs it is from no use not on single and not on multiple targets for a caster class.
If you make things multiproc it is a huge aoe effect (some encounter are overperforming somehow) and maybe viable on a single target.
If you only give some powers like DT and BovA and Hadar grasp multiprocs , other encounter will be laughable weak like WB.
Anyway, even doing so warlock will have issues to stand against a fully buffed GWF spamming waeapon master strike in a mobgroup getting 4 procs on mouseclick in a very short time i am sure.
Those enchants multiproc also on GWF power, Sure strike is 2 procs per hit, WMS 4 procs and Hand of blight 4 procs in melee. But that´s theorizing, I did not do one dungeonrun vs a GWF or CW so far.
Thank you for the excellent engagement with the players.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min