Make rogues more useful in PVE

sol2286

/autotranslation/

Make in dungeons the ability to bypass traps or packs of mobs with the Rouges. So they see and access workarounds. So it was a classic rogue who knows all sorts of holes.
Now only the rogue can see traps. But since all serious people VIP is immune to traps (although as it is physically justified when you cut circular saw from the floor, and you don't care - is unclear), this ability is not relevant. Plus, at skill, the trap is seen and caught in them only the first time (a good trap should not be seen, because it is a dungeon! I have a feeling that traps are made for stupid trolls, so they are visible).
But time-saving way is the very tasty thing for atmosphere.

And the hunters can activate some help-things to beat the bosses f.e. traps that are "on our side", ambush. Hunter set a trap, then shoot a pack of mobs and they get the damage off spiked boards when get close for example. Well, deactivate the traps set against us are the same.

sirjimbofrancis

It's an interesting point. Traps (and the ability to disable them) have been made almost completely irrelevant. It would be interesting to make them hurt again, although it would slow down runs a little. It would, however, mean we'd have to be more aware of what we are doing in dungeons, which probably isn't a bad thing!

ravenskya

I noticed that there aren't even traps in the epics - not that it matters since we are all VIP. But I agree that there should be things that being a rogue lets you do.

Like picking the locks to treasure chests for the whole group - even if it's a 1% chance - save everyone a key

pitshade

People have been asking for more cosmetics in the game since Beta but it never seems to do much good.

micky1p00

I would rather not have my entire investment in a class be summed up as a trap remover. I would like to think and hope TRs can be balanced without some forced niche need,

sirjimbofrancis

micky1p00 said:

I would rather not have my entire investment in a class be summed up as a trap remover. I would like to think and hope TRs can be balanced without some forced niche need,

Hey, we both know TRs can be useful and balance is something we both want. To me this wouldn't change that wish and I was not thinking in terms of a forced mechanic to make TRs useful. I was thinking in terms of a dungeon mechanic that has fallen by the wayside that might add another dynamic in dungeon runs besides running through as quickly as possible and nuking everything in the way. Something, maybe, a little closer to the d&d this was based on, while keeping content and classes intact.

rustlord

Sad to hear the OP's TR wasn't born in mod 1~2, back when traps hurt and the sole purpose of a TR was to run insvisble to the end of CN and respawn the entire team at the boss, skipping a whole lot of content. Well, you could only take my word for it now, it was boring (and unfulfilling) as HAMSTER

micky1p00

sirjimbofrancis said:

micky1p00 said:

I would rather not have my entire investment in a class be summed up as a trap remover. I would like to think and hope TRs can be balanced without some forced niche need,

Hey, we both know TRs can be useful and balance is something we both want. To me this wouldn't change that wish and I was not thinking in terms of a forced mechanic to make TRs useful. I was thinking in terms of a dungeon mechanic that has fallen by the wayside that might add another dynamic in dungeon runs besides running through as quickly as possible and nuking everything in the way. Something, maybe, a little closer to the d&d this was based on, while keeping content and classes intact.

I don't disagree with that. It's just feels to me like many people feel that TR will be usefull with some niche addon and not as a class by itself, and I rather not see it reinforced.

But about general verity and something unique I agree, one of the things were the towers in MC fir part. I still don't know why it was changed, it takes the same time, but way funner to sneak and activate those bombs. I wish there were more pats like that, and for more classes.

Shoot an arrow to some rope hit box and drop a chandelier on a boss.
Bash and break a wall to get through a shortcut.
Stealth and pass some uber strong mobs and activate some trap for them or activate a bridge / door that bypass it.

The hack and slash mentality is indeed extremely boring and lacks creativity.

rustlord said:

Sad to hear the OP's TR wasn't born in mod 1~2, back when traps hurt and the sole purpose of a TR was to run insvisble to the end of CN and respawn the entire team at the boss, skipping a whole lot of content. Well, you could only take my word for it now, it was boring (and unfulfilling) as HAMSTER

I know a 'friend' that is TR (totally not me) that remembers how another TR (quit long ago) ran with, and taught how to cycle stealth in CN as exe (not perma stealth) to get to the campsite.
And yes I agree, it was bad. That was also the time that /legit was at it's best and I was lucky to join at that time. Would have quit otherwise. That stealth camp running was not for me.

armadeonx

I remember in certain dungeons in Baldur's gate, if you didn't have your Rogue scouting and disarming certain traps the entire wall would slam your group into paste - lol. You couldn't VIP your way out of that

They could also stealth indefinitely and take out guards with a backstab and were very useful for scouting what was ahead.

ravenskya

@armadeonx exactly - back when the rogue was a rogue, and Minsc was a Ranger! You could stealth until spotted - and you got one good super hard hit out of stealth, because it's stealth and not invis (which is what this game has). You can't legitimately be stabbing a dragon in the face and "go into stealth" - that's invisibility.

I remember using my rogue to kite enemies back to the group because the rogue was a little faster - sneak in, scout for traps, backstab, then lead the enemies back to your crew who had already set up at a bottleneck. That was fun - made the rogue important and was true to the nature of the rogue.

sundance777

I was just talking about this with another TR player. The TR is basically useless in PvE these days. I retired my TR and stood up a budget GWF that does twice the damage as my TR and runs over any traps before disarming. I would love to see some traps that a party could not pass unless they were disarmed or some other mechanism in the game that required stealth to pass and allow the party to proceed. Why do we have disarm and stealth if there is not really any use for it in the PvE portion of the game?

sirjimbofrancis

sundance777 said:

... The TR is basically useless in PvE these days...

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. I can hang in there with 95% of the GWFs that aren't BIS, and even the really scary GWFs don't come anywhere near doubling my damage. And, I don't have access to any of the big guild boons. TRs may not be able to compete with GWFs at the highest levels, in terms of DPS, but neither can the other classes. But, at that point, you aren't really looking at it in terms of being useful or not. You are talking about finishing an MSVA 25 seconds faster (if that much). I'm just not sure that qualifies TRs as "useless".

In terms of the TR ability to disarm traps, that is certainly true. A useless ability. However, there is a difference between having a useless ability and being useless.

beckylunatic

sundance777 said:

Why do we have disarm and stealth if there is not really any use for it in the PvE portion of the game?

On this subject, and various nostalgia kicks about primarily single-player D&D games, NW simply doesn't have the depth of play to really embrace a varied skill set. It's not like a fighter can bash in locks or a wizard can cast Find Traps or Knock either. It's a nifty action combat game with a D&D varnish.

Technically, although "stealth" in NW functions more like invisibility because not only does the rogue have no hide check, NPCs have no spot/listen checks either. Monsters that should not be fooled by stealth OR invisibility because their template gives them permanent True Seeing are handled correctly, so far as I recall. Stealth in NW is more part of the combat toolkit.

In NWN's original campaign, my favorite thing to do was recover every trap (ouch my weight allowance) and reuse them against tougher enemies. I love games that really use a sneaky stealthy skillset. But I don't really expect it from the current meta in NW of "anyone can do anything".

dread4moor

I want my cleric to cast detect evil. I suspect this Orcus fellow is up to some mischief.

But seriously, as others have said NWO lacks the narrative depth for trap removal like we saw in Baldor 's Gate and Icewind Dale.
I wouldn't mind it being added, just not sure how it would fit with the hurry-hurry pace that is now standard for all NWO dungeons.
I don't know a single GWF, VIP or not, who would wait for a TR to remove a trap.
Good thought, OP, but I think that ship has sailed.

rustlord

@sundance777 @sirjimbofrancis

Thought I would just chime in, paraphrase (loosely) what you've said before, I happened to agree with a lot. One's build may work nicely for that person, but may not be the best suited for others. PvE-wise, I'll be the first one to say that yours has to be the highest dps build I know of. The issue many of us might have with it is that build is absolutely maxed out, out-of-the-realms-of-possibility expensive for 90% of the TRs that aren't BiS, maybe just trying to get by a daily eTos, a one-off FBI or Nsva.

I think what you've achieved for yourself deserves a lot of credit individually; It's just that not many can get to those levels realistically. So in retrospect, I understand what the others are saying that certain skills that make us Trickster Rogues should get a little more juice, instead of those things that make us BiS.

ghoulz66

Problem is that GWFs and SWs are able to fill all DPS roles with more ease. If some boss simply stands still and the TR is in no harm, they can shine. But this doesn't happen every day. A TR has to play more carefully and precisely, and that effort isn't often rewarded with better DPS.

sirjimbofrancis

rustlord said:

@sundance777 @sirjimbofrancis

Thought I would just chime in, paraphrase (loosely) what you've said before, I happened to agree with a lot. One's build may work nicely for that person, but may not be the best suited for others. PvE-wise, I'll be the first one to say that yours has to be the highest dps build I know of. The issue many of us might have with it is that build is absolutely maxed out, out-of-the-realms-of-possibility expensive for 90% of the TRs that aren't BiS, maybe just trying to get by a daily eTos, a one-off FBI or Nsva.

I think what you've achieved for yourself deserves a lot of credit individually; It's just that not many can get to those levels realistically. So in retrospect, I understand what the others are saying that certain skills that make us Trickster Rogues should get a little more juice, instead of those things that make us BiS.

I agree that play style goes a long way as to what works for people. However, you certainly don't have to be BIS to make my build work. I have had plenty of TRs not BIS who do good damage with it. I have run into players who aren't BIS who out DPS me! My Character is pretty well maxed out, but the build works for plenty of people who aren't maxed. That isn't to say that TRs don't need some help in PVE. But, there is a big difference to needing some of our powers to be beefed up some, and completely useless in PVE. Right now, people won't take TRs in MSVA because of this attitude and it is simply inaccurate. I could take a team of no DPSers but TRs into MSVA and finish in less than 10 minutes. Do TRs need some attention? Yes. Are they "useless" in PVE? Absolutely not.

ilusiphur

beckylunatic said:

sundance777 said:

Why do we have disarm and stealth if there is not really any use for it in the PvE portion of the game?

On this subject, and various nostalgia kicks about primarily single-player D&D games, NW simply doesn't have the depth of play to really embrace a varied skill set. It's not like a fighter can bash in locks or a wizard can cast Find Traps or Knock either. It's a nifty action combat game with a D&D varnish.

Technically, although "stealth" in NW functions more like invisibility because not only does the rogue have no hide check, NPCs have no spot/listen checks either. Monsters that should not be fooled by stealth OR invisibility because their template gives them permanent True Seeing are handled correctly, so far as I recall. Stealth in NW is more part of the combat toolkit.

In NWN's original campaign, my favorite thing to do was recover every trap (ouch my weight allowance) and reuse them against tougher enemies. I love games that really use a sneaky stealthy skillset. But I don't really expect it from the current meta in NW of "anyone can do anything".

Must. Not. Make Joke. About. Becky's. Weight allowance.

crowdsourced

You guys should increase the base damage of their Shocking Execution so that it can be used in PVE

armadeonx

sirjimbofrancis said:

rustlord said:

@sundance777 @sirjimbofrancis

Thought I would just chime in, paraphrase (loosely) what you've said before, I happened to agree with a lot. One's build may work nicely for that person, but may not be the best suited for others. PvE-wise, I'll be the first one to say that yours has to be the highest dps build I know of. The issue many of us might have with it is that build is absolutely maxed out, out-of-the-realms-of-possibility expensive for 90% of the TRs that aren't BiS, maybe just trying to get by a daily eTos, a one-off FBI or Nsva.

I think what you've achieved for yourself deserves a lot of credit individually; It's just that not many can get to those levels realistically. So in retrospect, I understand what the others are saying that certain skills that make us Trickster Rogues should get a little more juice, instead of those things that make us BiS.

I agree that play style goes a long way as to what works for people. However, you certainly don't have to be BIS to make my build work. I have had plenty of TRs not BIS who do good damage with it. I have run into players who aren't BIS who out DPS me! My Character is pretty well maxed out, but the build works for plenty of people who aren't maxed. That isn't to say that TRs don't need some help in PVE. But, there is a big difference to needing some of our powers to be beefed up some, and completely useless in PVE. Right now, people won't take TRs in MSVA because of this attitude and it is simply inaccurate. I could take a team of no DPSers but TRs into MSVA and finish in less than 10 minutes. Do TRs need some attention? Yes. Are they "useless" in PVE? Absolutely not.

Have you thought about posting a guide? I'm sure a lot of struggling TR's would appreciate it.

l0th4ri0

armadeonx said:

sirjimbofrancis said:

rustlord said:

@sundance777 @sirjimbofrancis

Thought I would just chime in, paraphrase (loosely) what you've said before, I happened to agree with a lot. One's build may work nicely for that person, but may not be the best suited for others. PvE-wise, I'll be the first one to say that yours has to be the highest dps build I know of. The issue many of us might have with it is that build is absolutely maxed out, out-of-the-realms-of-possibility expensive for 90% of the TRs that aren't BiS, maybe just trying to get by a daily eTos, a one-off FBI or Nsva.

I think what you've achieved for yourself deserves a lot of credit individually; It's just that not many can get to those levels realistically. So in retrospect, I understand what the others are saying that certain skills that make us Trickster Rogues should get a little more juice, instead of those things that make us BiS.

I agree that play style goes a long way as to what works for people. However, you certainly don't have to be BIS to make my build work. I have had plenty of TRs not BIS who do good damage with it. I have run into players who aren't BIS who out DPS me! My Character is pretty well maxed out, but the build works for plenty of people who aren't maxed. That isn't to say that TRs don't need some help in PVE. But, there is a big difference to needing some of our powers to be beefed up some, and completely useless in PVE. Right now, people won't take TRs in MSVA because of this attitude and it is simply inaccurate. I could take a team of no DPSers but TRs into MSVA and finish in less than 10 minutes. Do TRs need some attention? Yes. Are they "useless" in PVE? Absolutely not.

Have you thought about posting a guide? I'm sure a lot of struggling TR's would appreciate it.

I agree. I hear that MI Executioners can be pretty good. Maybe a guide for one of those.

sundance777

I run a variant of Sunny's TR Executioner build from mmominds and have built and tweaked my TR to the max including mounts and mount bonuses, +5 rings, the best guild boons I have available, every other campaign boon exept maybe one in the Frost campaign, legendary comp and all the other BiS comps, R12's EVERYWHERE except utility slots, dragonborn etc etc and still can not top the leader board if there is a knowledgeable GWF in the party within 1K of my item level. I went no expense spared on my main toon and it comes up short.

I moved my good stuff to my GWF (a low budget Lia Knowles variant) and I actually laugh while playing it because it does so much more damage than my TR and it is not yet BiS, it is probably only about 2/3 the way built as well as my TR was.

I do think the TR can be a nice compliment to a party with some smoke and daze to hold the critters still for the GWF and in the absence of real DPS it is a good substitute. I gave up on my TR for because I had heard the PC players stating they will not take a TR through FBI so that is where the sore spot is and what I base my statement of useless on. I know many Xbox players that say similar things, like I wont take a TR on a run (unless it is mine). Plus the TR tends to get one shot out of runs much easier than the GWF.

It's is just my opinion and I am sad that my TR is not higher in the DPS department compared to other classes. It look me a long time to make the decision to back burner it as I love it whole heartily and I spent a lot of time money and energy getting it to where it is. We don't have the the Sea of Moving Ice yet on Xbox, but maybe that content will change my mind.

l0th4ri0

Take heart, the inevitable incoming catastrophic GWF nerf will shuffle the meta around soon enough.

rustlord

See, now I got two major issues with PvE that just seem to keep me away from it: one it's a dps race with little or no thinking work involved. I started playing again last october and was pretty excited to try out 3 modules worth of content, dungeons skirmishes trials. There was a bit of hype between the elitists and pugs, like things you have to do not to mess up the whole group. I just went in without regard of that, took me a few seconds to figure out what was going on and the thrill of it all just died down too quickly back to numbers. It's why I'm more attracted to PvP, as bad as the state of PvP is, PvE seems to be more disappointing and robotic.

Second issue, expense. To a point I see what @sirjimbofrancis is pointing out that a wisely built budget TR could sort of pass for a dps role. It should take 3xbondings (at rank that adds up more than augment) 80% crit and a lot of power, meaning rank 12, at least rank 10 brutals. although to make a difference we'd have to start to consider 4k mounts, legendary/mythic artifacts, orcus set. For not even half that cost anybody could make a budget GWF/SW/CW/HR that can perform just as a good. I believe this is where the TR stigma is rooted -> the economy behind pulling together the resources to build a competitive pve TR. Despite having a handful of really good TRs who can do wonders in high-end content, the issue remains the majority of average players just won't cut it.

Just an afterthought if you could put together a guide within the limits of a 3K player, it should go a long way. I have some ideas myself but as I'm not a 100% PvE guy, it should come from somebody who is.

ltsmithneko

ghoulz66 said:

Problem is that GWFs and SWs are able to fill all DPS roles with more ease. If some boss simply stands still and the TR is in no harm, they can shine. But this doesn't happen every day. A TR has to play more carefully and precisely, and that effort isn't often rewarded with better DPS.

Well if a boss moves around it'll make a gwf useless, since tr's and Gwf's "mostly" need a stationary target to keep their damage going, T'is why if ya find a TR that knows their class well on certain content they can bypass all of the dps classes if there is a lack of adds and pretty much one enemy, aka a boss. But, yes Gwf's and Sw's are alot more popular choice to play as atm, and have a great guides to build off of~<3 Then again those classes aren't all that great, take a look at the Gwf they're very limited on actually useful feats, due to the pointless or down right broken ones... And powers that will never be changed out since the other ones do such terriable damage in comparison. :P Simply put other classes have more teachers, higher population, practice, and built for fast clean-up.

l0th4ri0

Define "competitive" DPS:

If you are referring to topping paingiver, then the AoE classes that can sprint are always going to have a decided advantage to win it. Especially if they are geared. Let's face it, doing massive damage in PVE compared to some other player has mostly to do with what weapon you have and how much base damage it does combined with how much time you had to use that weapon. If you are hitting lots of stuff at once, it REALLY adds up vs. a class that is more single-target like the TR.

So are the TR's really that bad off? Really? Or is it just perceived that way by a significant amount of the playerbase? Do TR's have a devil of a time soloing? Do you need to get carried through dailies? Struggling for hours on end due to sucking so very hard at DPS? Hmm.

Could it be that the charts and players blindly following them are hindering acceptance of a truly versatile and useful class that serves very well in a team setting? What if there was a separate chart category for just boss damage inflicted? Could the "TR on a budget" beat out the other classes on that one?

rustlord

Nah, just generic usefulness in terms of making things "die". If you feel so strongly in the mentality that TR is fine as it is in PvE, be my guest. But I'd stand to reason that the majority view used as a reference by most players whether to take a TR through a run is anchored in at least some facts. In my opinion, that is atm 4K TR = 3K {Insert Class} whilst all logic tells me it should not be.

talon1970

My few cents:

Do we need an rework as fast as possible?
Definitely, but i think our core dps is more or less ok (could be better sure, who doesn't want it for his class).
But in my opinion our main problem is, the high cooldown from the most used encounters, good Trs prefer.
(Lashing, smoke for example).

So natsu (a fellow guild member maybe some of you have seen him in FBI speedruns) formed groups for msva with guildies/alliance members and some people from an zerg channel and he invited 2 TR from Gutbusters (high recovery builds, as far i could see) and it was impressive how they could outdps everyone (Gwf, full Thaum CW, SW).

What is also a main problem of the TR?
Timing..alot of timing, we need so much more timing comparing to other classes with lower cd.
For an example, in my guild we are using teamspeak, so when buffing/debuffing classes say: "Ok all buff/debuff is ready, everyone go all out, nau!!"
I need stealth, for an high dps Lashing or dazing with Shadowborn and SoD procc or Lurkers up with 10 bleeding stacks and ITC ready for another dps boost.
If i missing most or all of them, alot of my dps is wasted.

For me, there are some really awesome TR out there, performing more than competitive, but they suffer from the mantra most players have in their heads: "Don't bring an TR in the group, TR are bad, TR is an PvP only class...rince and repeat..."

But if i am running some skirmishes with my Tr and some of my alts i have seen so many Tr performing really, really bad, running without stealth in an group activating Path of blades, without any CC encounters....and i know what will happen a few seconds later: "Help"..."Promocy"..."Hilfe"..."Aiuto" and then i am always thinking..."Why...Why did you do that. Damnit and another fool who don't know the mechanics and people have this -TR are bad mantra- again in their heads."

So also i posted Jimbos guide in the German section, trying to explain the mechanics, rotations, timing things, and an Ps4 player with something like 2.6k ilvl replied that he/she was so thankful bc now he/she is able to double or tripple his/her dps even if the char is not maxed out.


Long story short, in my opinion we need (if the rework is coming) lower cooldowns on encounters, max dps output from df bleeding stacks reduced from 10 down to 5 stacks, increasing dps if Lurkers is active to x%.

l0th4ri0

l0th4ri0 said:

What if there was a separate chart category for just boss damage inflicted? Could the "TR on a budget" beat out the other classes on that one?

^^^ I'll repeat myself if y'all forgive me this once.

And as far as facts go:
TR is not an AoE class.
TR does not have sprint.
Paingiver and therefore "general DPS effectiveness perception" is mostly based on AoE damage in PVE inflicted by who gets to the mobs first.

Can we agree on this much at least? If so, let's continue.

If there was a separate chart for who did the most damage to the boss, would people take notice? After all, that's your money shot in PVE. That's the guy you have to beat to get to the treasure. The problem here isn't "TRs need to be the best at single target AND AoE", it's "People are obsessed with Paingiver, which is really a glorified way of showing you who the janitor on the team was." I mean, let's not mince words here: if you excel at taking out the trash, you are the janitor.

TRs are not janitors. Just like tanks or healers/buffers aren't the janitors either. Food for thought.

Addendum:
I honestly think that if absolutely nothing else in the game was changed besides if "Paingiver" was renamed to "Janitor" or "Trash Detail" and a new category popped up for boss damage that was named "Rock Star" or "Superhero" or "Largest Peen", everyone in PVE would be rolling TRs and there would be multiple threads in these forums calling for TR nerfs. "Oh oh oh! They can't be the best at PVP AND PVE!!!! RAGE!!! Nerf TR NOWWWWWW!! Not FAIRRRRRRR!!!"

talon1970

@l0th4ri0

Sure the Tr class was introduced as high single target dps/boss killer in the past, and we still could be it.....if we have the "right" target aka an still standing boss like Lostmouth or Orcus.
Porting bosses like Valindra or Drufi could be a pain the a** for melee classes.
If Drufi is in the "Yay i am running from one corner to the other" mode, all i can do, is throwing some daggers up to her and predict where she is standing still for an second, to bring on an stealthed Lashing blade.
If i amissing that, i am loosing dps, meanwhile the CW (for example) could stand still nearby the DC, benfits from all the buffs and can still firing up everything he has, with very low cooldowns (Conduit of ice, disintegrate, etc).
So i had so many times in FBI the situation, that an guild member with his full Thaum CW could deal so much more dps than me, as an "High Single Target/Boss Killer Class" formerly known as Tr.
(Don't get me wrong, i like the endfight, bc it shows me, where my personal weakness is, timing, movement failure and so one).

But to be honest, we aren't the best "High Single Target/Boss Killer" Class or "high aoe dps class" like in Mod 5 anymore, not as long other dps classes could bring on the same/or more dps in half the time we have to wait for stealth or CD from encounters.

rustlord

@talon1970
+1