More competitiveness in PvE

thefiresidecat

the only reason any of this is an issue is because we are allowed to buff up our toons to ridiculous proportions. I'm pretty sure everyone posting here is WELL over 3300k il. the simple and elegant solution if it really bothers you is to play on a lower il alt. lol. the majority of players are lower il. if they reduce it for the high hitters they're hurting the majority for the benefit of the higher.
I personally don't want them to mess with any important stats unless they're willing to go back and make all the dead end flowcharts of all the classes valid again. right now most classes have one valid path. that's it. the other paths have been violated. there is a basic unwillingness to make things worthwhile once they're made useless. if they kill lifesteal then you've got all these useless lifesteal paths. do you REALLLLLY think.. for a second even..... that if they get rid of or nerf lifesteal that they're going to make it right beyond giving people a trade in maybe for enchants (if we're super lucky)

as it is the nerf of the gwf is going to happen. it's happened to everyone else. let it happen. lol. it's all part of their balancing plan. nerf em all. once we've all been nerfed to the ground at least it's all equal footing.

thefiresidecat

l0th4ri0 said:

On a side note with lifesteal:

I'm cruising right along with my lifesteal-less CW. Got rid of all LS at lev 40-ish last week when we started talking about it and I got curious to see how necessary it really is. Currently halfway through Elemental Evil, lev 66, and no deaths aside from a couple of missteps dealing with crabs at Drowned Shore and a couple of crucially bad timed lag spikes which cant really be blamed on anything.

More importantly, the game is still fun and playable... not really any harder or easier at all. Which maybe could change later on in other campaigns. We'll see.

if so why would you argue to get rid of it still?

neverwinterdevil

thefiresidecat said:

the only reason any of this is an issue is because we are allowed to buff up our toons to ridiculous proportions. I'm pretty sure everyone posting here is WELL over 3300k il. the simple and elegant solution if it really bothers you is to play on a lower il alt. lol. the majority of players are lower il. if they reduce it for the high hitters they're hurting the majority for the benefit of the higher.
I personally don't want them to mess with any important stats unless they're willing to go back and make all the dead end flowcharts of all the classes valid again. right now most classes have one valid path. that's it. the other paths have been violated. there is a basic unwillingness to make things worthwhile once they're made useless. if they kill lifesteal then you've got all these useless lifesteal paths. do you REALLLLLY think.. for a second even..... that if they get rid of or nerf lifesteal that they're going to make it right beyond giving people a trade in maybe for enchants (if we're super lucky)

as it is the nerf of the gwf is going to happen. it's happened to everyone else. let it happen. lol. it's all part of their balancing plan. nerf em all. once we've all been nerfed to the ground at least it's all equal footing.

there are way too many between 3.3k and 4k who don't do the dmg they should simply because they don't follow a good build or the rotations that come with it. also getting rid of life steal is not an option, i would suggest tweaking the powers for the class which life steal makes it possible to solo dungeons although that may defeat the purpose in a way because so many are hungry to be top dps that they forget they're actually a support class )

armadeonx

neverwinterdevil said:

thefiresidecat said:

the only reason any of this is an issue is because we are allowed to buff up our toons to ridiculous proportions. I'm pretty sure everyone posting here is WELL over 3300k il. the simple and elegant solution if it really bothers you is to play on a lower il alt. lol. the majority of players are lower il. if they reduce it for the high hitters they're hurting the majority for the benefit of the higher.
I personally don't want them to mess with any important stats unless they're willing to go back and make all the dead end flowcharts of all the classes valid again. right now most classes have one valid path. that's it. the other paths have been violated. there is a basic unwillingness to make things worthwhile once they're made useless. if they kill lifesteal then you've got all these useless lifesteal paths. do you REALLLLLY think.. for a second even..... that if they get rid of or nerf lifesteal that they're going to make it right beyond giving people a trade in maybe for enchants (if we're super lucky)

as it is the nerf of the gwf is going to happen. it's happened to everyone else. let it happen. lol. it's all part of their balancing plan. nerf em all. once we've all been nerfed to the ground at least it's all equal footing.

there are way too many between 3.3k and 4k who don't do the dmg they should simply because they don't follow a good build or the rotations that come with it. also getting rid of life steal is not an option, i would suggest tweaking the powers for the class which life steal makes it possible to solo dungeons although that may defeat the purpose in a way because so many are hungry to be top dps that they forget they're actually a support class )

I actively run 7 characters with my main being a 3.6k prot Pally and my lowest is a 2.5k GWF. I did a pug CN last night and as usual I loaded as a replacement into a group and there were 3 DPS (2xHR & 1 GWF) and a GF (3.1k) loaded in just after me.

The two HR's were 4k and 3k and the GWF was 3.3k. They were very badly built and it took twice as long as usual to finish, I came 2nd on paingiver just behind the 4k HR. This was despite them getting up to 20k power from me plus ITF from the GF.

I normally do about 30-40% of the dps of a 3.2-4k GWF which is absolutely needed if I am to maintain threat. Pallys have a x5 threat multiplier so need to do at least 20% of the damage of the highest DPS in the group - and as HP is generated by our damage output, the more damage we do equates to more temp health and better survivability.

Cat, you're right, they won't remove lifesteal (though they may change it again). They are slowly digging themselves into a hole by introducing all new stat sources and reducing the damage mechanics of classes in an attempt at rebalancing. The problem for them is all of the changes they make (boosts & nerfs) move them into a position where it warps everything in the long run,then they try something drastic like introducing everfrost damage.

I strongly suspect they actually have no idea how to achieve a properly balanced game but I do think they won't get there without a radical redrawing of all class mechanics.

thefiresidecat

what they really need to do is shelf this game and introduce neverwinter 2. let people bring some things to the new game with them but redo it all. nuke and rebuild for hte most part.

armadeonx

thefiresidecat said:

what they really need to do is shelf this game and introduce neverwinter 2. let people bring some things to the new game with them but redo it all. nuke and rebuild for hte most part.

I completely agree with that, I've thought it for a while!

l0th4ri0

thefiresidecat said:

l0th4ri0 said:

On a side note with lifesteal:

I'm cruising right along with my lifesteal-less CW. Got rid of all LS at lev 40-ish last week when we started talking about it and I got curious to see how necessary it really is. Currently halfway through Elemental Evil, lev 66, and no deaths aside from a couple of missteps dealing with crabs at Drowned Shore and a couple of crucially bad timed lag spikes which cant really be blamed on anything.

More importantly, the game is still fun and playable... not really any harder or easier at all. Which maybe could change later on in other campaigns. We'll see.

if so why would you argue to get rid of it still?

If I can play a suboptimal squishy build into endgame without lifesteal, then lifesteal is not needed in the game.

At least, that's how it started out in my mind. But it doesn't really prove anything when (not if) I make it TBH. I'm really just doing it now as a curiosity thing. My CW is a sideshow build, almost "gimmicky" by not having lifesteal, due to the fact that it is generally accepted practice for everyone to have lots and lots of it. I had a tricky time figuring out artifacts due to how many of them have LS on them. Can't get the valindra set which could have been interesting for a gimmick oppressor build -- the belt shard(?) has LS on it. I'm even running with Shield in my 4th encounter slot like a hamstering noob. Just really bizarrely different from my usual. But it's fun! For example, if you've never played extensively with EF on tab, you should try it once to see what it's like. It crams all the mobs from a pretty good-sized area into this tight little clump, and if they are already frozen (hint) then they stay put so you or, say, a cleric with daunting light, or somesuch with a tight small AoE can nuke them easily and get all of them.

Mostly through Fiery Pit now since last night... got creamed at Emberclaw when I tried to solo it. Was that a bad idea?

micky1p00

l0th4ri0 said:

thefiresidecat said:

l0th4ri0 said:

On a side note with lifesteal:

I'm cruising right along with my lifesteal-less CW. Got rid of all LS at lev 40-ish last week when we started talking about it and I got curious to see how necessary it really is. Currently halfway through Elemental Evil, lev 66, and no deaths aside from a couple of missteps dealing with crabs at Drowned Shore and a couple of crucially bad timed lag spikes which cant really be blamed on anything.

More importantly, the game is still fun and playable... not really any harder or easier at all. Which maybe could change later on in other campaigns. We'll see.

if so why would you argue to get rid of it still?

If I can play a suboptimal squishy build into endgame without lifesteal, then lifesteal is not needed in the game.

At least, that's how it started out in my mind. But it doesn't really prove anything when (not if) I make it TBH. I'm really just doing it now as a curiosity thing. My CW is a sideshow build, almost "gimmicky" by not having lifesteal, due to the fact that it is generally accepted practice for everyone to have lots and lots of it. I had a tricky time figuring out artifacts due to how many of them have LS on them. Can't get the valindra set which could have been interesting for a gimmick oppressor build -- the belt shard(?) has LS on it. I'm even running with Shield in my 4th encounter slot like a hamstering noob. Just really bizarrely different from my usual. But it's fun! For example, if you've never played extensively with EF on tab, you should try it once to see what it's like. It crams all the mobs from a pretty good-sized area into this tight little clump, and if they are already frozen (hint) then they stay put so you or, say, a cleric with daunting light, or somesuch with a tight small AoE can nuke them easily and get all of them.

Mostly through Fiery Pit now since last night... got creamed at Emberclaw when I tried to solo it. Was that a bad idea?

Sorry if I missed something, but end-game is not EE. it's MSVA / FBI with their zones.

majorcharvenak

Why can't they just keep the percentage but cap the severity at 60? Then to compensate, rework the leader/healing companions by boosting their heals by 40%. That way you don't get rid of it but you don't let the presence of it make some classes completely irrelevant at endgame.

greywynd

micky1p00 said:

Sorry if I missed something, but end-game is not EE. it's MSVA / FBI with their zones.

Endgame starts with Sharandar.

l0th4ri0

Yeah LOL I am NOT close to endgame yet. Just updating on my progress getting there which is gonna be a while still. I am gonna run all campaign content without lifesteal.

micky1p00

greywynd said:

micky1p00 said:

Sorry if I missed something, but end-game is not EE. it's MSVA / FBI with their zones.

Endgame starts with Sharandar.

I guess it depends on the definition but in all places I saw, and googled, it refers to the hardest / latest content available from which there is no further progress.
It's an indicator of the lack of possible progression after that. After Sharandar there is still a long long way where to go.

Not a good source, but just as an example: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Endgame

But in any case, it's probably not relevant, didn't mean to derail.

l0th4ri0

majorcharvenak said:

Why can't they just keep the percentage but cap the severity at 60? Then to compensate, rework the leader/healing companions by boosting their heals by 40%. That way you don't get rid of it but you don't let the presence of it make some classes completely irrelevant at endgame.

This is another math-based solution that could work. Maybe not a hard cap due to the fact that LS severity is featured on gear/boons/feats, but maybe default it down to 60% instead of it starting out at 100 already. Nice idea.

l0th4ri0

micky1p00 said:

[SNIP].... it refers to the hardest / latest content available from which there is no further progress...

I also consider this "endgame", just as a clarification. I'm trying to make it through the campaigns to Mod 10 stuff, wherein Mod 10 is "endgame".

ragequittingdc

If you really want it to be more competitive in dungeons, make the utility abilities necessary.

Make TR's ability to break traps a huge plus in dungeons, make a CW MoF more than just an AOE spec, SS as well for that matter. Introduce elements(no pun) that require them to diffuse or, go figure, control. Give both paths another spell mastery perk for their encounter powers that are designed for the preposed dungeon revamp.

Make GWF who are tanky more preferable in some groups by adding more CN orcus power well type of scenarios. In any case, I see more leaderboards as just a way for the top 10% of players to compete, but for everyone else, not so much.

thefiresidecat

micky1p00 said:

greywynd said:

micky1p00 said:

Sorry if I missed something, but end-game is not EE. it's MSVA / FBI with their zones.

Endgame starts with Sharandar.

I guess it depends on the definition but in all places I saw, and googled, it refers to the hardest / latest content available from which there is no further progress.
It's an indicator of the lack of possible progression after that. After Sharandar there is still a long long way where to go.

Not a good source, but just as an example: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Endgame

But in any case, it's probably not relevant, didn't mean to derail.

sharandar is DEFINITELY NOT endgame. EE isn't endgame. not by a long shot. it was once upon a time.. but that was like a year ago.

they nerfed sharandar to level 64. to be endgame I'd argue the dudes you're seeing must be level 73.

hustin1

I definitely would not like to see PvE made more competitive. In three years I've run afoul of far too many callous PvP-specced players who wouldn't hesitate a nanosecond before stealing my quest objectives. Thanks, but no thanks. If anything, I'd like to see PvE somehow give bonus rewards for cooperative play. I still think that cutting the leveling dungeons down to three-persons was a terrible mistake as they don't require any cooperation at all. Finding a party that works together in those is like finding a two-horned, three-eyed unicorn. If I were king for a day, I'd revert the dungeons back to their 5-man versions, open up the side areas, and introduce side bonuses for parties willing to work together to solve problems. Ideally, the rewards (and associated problems) would be randomized from a large pool.