Shocking Execution

mafesio

Before anyone get's crazy I main a TR, I have one of every class but my 2 most advanced classes are a TR and DC, I never pvp with my DC. I don't use SE myself, either in PVP or PVE, I think I tried it a couple of times in PVE and it seemed not as effect as LA. Now when I first started PVPing of course I was MI executioner, the build that is probably 90% of the TR's right now, if not more. When I was execution I tool took advantage of that stupid daily, it was quite easy to master running around chasing people and using a single button, the easiest kills were if someone was fighting someone else you can run up on them, hit one button and they are gone without even getting a chance to dodge, easy kill. When my TR was only 2.2k, I finished a match with 17-0 and almost everyone in the match was at least 1k above me. SE was the only way I could kill someone, I tried to fight straight up with a couple of players, but I was like a fly, annoying but totally ineffective against them, and if I took I hit I was almost dead. So I didn't fight, I'd stay invisi, wait for them to be distracted fighting someone else and steal the kill. By the end of the match I realized even with a 17-0 finish, my toon was garbage, my TR was only SE in PVP, definitely seemed like there was something wrong with that, I understand a straight up fight with someone 1k over my gs I should probably lose, I get that, but then, there shouldn't be just one daily that can kill them.

Over a year ago, when I hit 2.5k I changed my build to scoundrel, focused on CA, dumped SE, I don't use daggers. I'm 3.1k now, I have taken players 1k above me out, sometimes 2 on 1, I only have 18k power, I haven't used SE in close to 2 years. It's uneeded number one, there is zero need for that daily, if SE didn't exist there would be better TR's and less of them, TR is not an easy toon to play if your not relying on being invisible and an overpowered daily. They actually take a lot of skill, my TR does not realy burst damage, it's sustained bleeds and CA damage if I can get it. Besides being much fun to play, people also never talk HAMSTER to me after I kill them, if they died, they know I hit them a bazillion times and dodged all their stuff, I didn't kill them with a button but with skill. Even I rage as TR in zone sometimes when I get killed by SE, because as a TR it's easy to dodge SE, I have 70% stamina regen, I can dodge forever, the situation that get's me everytime, I'll be fighting someone on the enemy node, another TR on my team will show up and join in, then while I'm fighting with a player, I hear shocking execution, I don't dodge because I assume it was him, then bam, I'm dead, it was ANOTHER TR with SE that snuck up on me, happens often, Im stubborn sometimes and just hope it's my TR and don't move lol, almost never is the case. Now I find it odd that I can hold off 2 4k players on their node for 2 or 3 minutes, then a 3k hr can take me out with a button. Imagine 4 TR's on a node, all with SE, god forbid they all have DC sigils, the sound of SE would be constant, and it would be a roll of the dice to not dodge, 25% chance it's your teamate, 50% chance it's the enemy, if you don't dodge your dead. In most fights, you can make a decision to tank a big hit to continue a rotation, you cant do that with SE, you have to dodge or die, now I typically leave a node a if a friendly TR is fighting around me. I need sustained damage, if I have to dodge everytime I hear SE, there is no chance for sustained damage, and I refuse to use that stupid Daily myself. At the very least there should only be allowed one TR per side, at least we don't have to listen to the SE sound effect 100 times a match.

Alot of people complain about TR's, but I think they are really complaining about SE. Without SE unless you don't move and just stand there, it's going to be hard for a TR to just kill you straight out. I have hit LA, deft striked to someone on node, followed by dazing strike and then dulest flurry and have taken people out before they knew what happened. I have 30% CA bonus, plus Lurkers Assault gives you a percentage increase which Im pretty sure it multiples after the CA damage, so it is possible in the right situation to do some serious damage in short time, but the condtions need to be ideal, it cost a daily, 2 encounter and an at will and if your just a little tanky your not going to do. I also have HR and I do not use piercing blades for the same reason, I was combat before they changed piercing blades, now I am trapper and don't have any points in Piercing Blades, does my HR suck, oh yeah, he blows, still, if I actually like that character I'm sure I could find a style to be effective without it, but it seems in the history of HR's in NW, they are only good when they are broken, plus I could never grind the gear like I did for my TR and DC. Even if they took 50% of the damage away from SE and the piercing HAMSTER and spread it over the encounters and at wills, there are hundreds if not thousands of 2.5k one HIT wonders running around smashing the same 2 buttons, invisiblity and SE, and the sad thing, it's effective, takes no skill, no work, no money, no real grind, no timing, just be inivisible and hit a button, the piercing aspect of SE makes it so you don't need to gear up to be effective. Take away that one Daily or change how it works, everyone will see most TR's throw dagger and use one daily and run in circles, without SE I think many TR's would move to HR's, the only reason there are so many TR's in PVP is because they have access to SE which negates the need for super high gear if that is all your focus is on.

mafesio

I forgot to add something else in case no one else noticed, that SE is the one reason in PVP you can't listen to music while you want to play.

demonmonger

I play tr... I don't use se, often unless I'm vs an immortal paladin or gf.
And I play sabo. Mi.

I have 13000 mobility
5000 lifestyle
3000 defense
4000 critical
17000 power

It works

icyphish

Pretty sure 5000 Lifestyle makes good difference, great choice!

forumnamesuxs

Well I agree with you here, a lot.
However.. I don't think that many would move to HR. There's still the unmitigatable CB smoke combo, which can't be dodged, if the TR knows how to time smoke, or if the target is a sprint/shield class, which only makes up half the classes in the game.
Fix both those things, compensate TR with higher base damage, and TR hate will be lowered slightly, maybe. It's hard not to hate a class that's based on not being seen, not allowing me to fight, but rather run around, trying to catch them without ITC active, which it almost always is.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the person behind the character, that would be stupid, and I try my best to stfu when I get killed by one, but when I get taken out because of some BS mechanic my SW or GWF can't avoid/mitigate, then that pisses me off a little

Build HP's people tell me, and I've been trying, but with the new weapons, that's no longer an option, ye?

Anyway, most of the hit & run TR's seem to either have quit, or changed play style, at least from my experience, and when called on it, a lot of those still remaining will "take pity" so to speak, and show that they are actually capable of a proper fight, and only use SE as the finisher it's supposed to be, which is good.

cilginordek

mafesio said:

I forgot to add something else in case no one else noticed, that SE is the one reason in PVP you can't listen to music while you want to play.

This is the main reason I find it annoying.

indylol

I use shocking execution on my new TR i made on Black Friday. After being dunked on my GF for over a year on 2 consoles, i'll happily admit to a 340:2 K:D over the last week. I wouldn't mind seeing the skill changed but with how slowly things are done, i'll have a good 3-5 months to rack up kills.

sh00termcl0vin

The big problem with shocking is not the power itself, but the self buffs that come from first strike and shadowborne. It's really the only way to go if you want to kill players that have high levels of tenacity in the 4k range.

I see ppl posting here with the vague statements like "I kill players 1k item level above me without using SE" or talking about how good the scoundrel Paragon is and I hate to say it but you are posting misleading information. Scoundrel was gutted in mod 6, and for any player wearing an elven battle that knows what they are doing you are basically a gnat waiting to get squashed.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from playing other paragons or specs, I'm just trying to point out how broken one particular build is. As someone stated earlier 90% of the community is a "one trick pony" for this very reason. Until they address issues like rebalancing at will and encounter power damage, changing first strike, and fixing the SOD glitch interaction with shocking, rogues will continue to be funneled down the same path which yields the best results.

rustlord

I thought well, not another SE thread, but turns out we have some things in common... not walls of text though, I prefer more line breaks.

But yes, sums it up this daily is total cheesemode on maybe the 80% of pugs that still fall victim to it, but the rest of them who call themselves decent pvpers know how to dodge it, xcept GWFs SWs, but they too know what to do. No matter, this just wasn't my style anyways, CB dazed to death is more like it -- but that -- doesn't deserve to be put on the same boat as SE.

Plain CB+Smoke Bomb just makes you half a trapper half troll, gives 0 kills and I bet a lot of run speed. Killing good geared players with that, well that takes skill. It doesn't matter that the target can't sprint or dodge it, if you're being that up close to a GWF or GF within the period of 2 or 3 CB, you're liable to get your face smashed in if you have serious l2p issues.

d4rkh0rs3

The entire TR class needs a PvE and PvP rework. Only a handful of TRs are adequate in PvE. The rest are way off.

PvP-wise, fixing SE is just the beginning.

Perma-dodge, run speed, deflect chance+severity, and ITC coupled with stealth make the TR the most imbalanced class in the game when it comes to survivability (yes, even more than GFs, DCs, and OPs).

SE animation canceling to get your opponent to waste their dodge, SB+first strike+SE glitch, SE=Shadow of Demise glitch...

Then, you have a few guys now running premades with 100% uptime courage breaker, dropping smoke bombs on you just so another teammate can take you out.

The imbalance and complaining in this game largely stems from the inability to counter attacks or certain defense mechanisms. Its not just the TR, but the TR is the primary abuser of broken game mechanics.

Why is there no timed cooldown on CB? Why can CB not be dodged or blocked? Why do specific attacks ignore tenacity? Why can trappers lock you up and stun+root you indefinitely? Why can GF hold their shield up forever, have the first or second fastest class movement speed in the game, move in circles, and one-rotate you? Why does a specific armor enchantment (Elven Battle) become a near necessity to use in PvP if playing against CC classes. Etc..

I have a feeling as soon as some GFs catch on to the new DPS FotM rotation, there will be many more gripes on this forum regarding their damage output.

An overhaul is long overdue.

icyphish

<-- Sad little GWF here that can't dodge the one-shotting SE nor perma-slow CB

Unknown

This content has been removed.

rustlord

Not to take anything away from your point, yes CB goes through all immunities, which is on some levels is another kind of HAMSTER, but CB in itself doesn't deal damage. It's a means to and end. To a few TRs like myself, it's the only way to land my at will, the only source of damage at all. It's a lot of work compared to setting up a Shocking/Shadow of Demise for an easy kill.

Suppose we destroy both SE and CB, you're looking at a new breed of TR abusing the hell out of Bloodbath. So with all respect to everyone, I just think the underlying issue is being able to use dailies too frequently. This is a global problem that applies to all classes, not just the TR.

forumnamesuxs

I don't think anyone serious about class balance concerns is suggesting to have CB or SE rendered useless, nor the TR as a class, SE should kill the target when certain criterias have been met, CB should slow when certain countermeasures have not been met. I just don't think anyone should have to stack 200K+ HP just to have a chance at surviving a first strike 40K power SE, before getting hit by anything else in that match.

rustlord

@forumnamesuxs Yeah I'm on the same page with you there. I know intentions here are good and all, anyone I read who suggested balancing asked to compensate by increasing our damage one way or another. That is us though, we're just players, mere mortals lets call it.. The devs however seem to have a whole different insight in class balancing. If history serves as facts, we can look at a few things that went on --

* mod 2. Lurkers Assault was destroyed so much that nobody dared touch it for a long time
* Impact shots, same deal
* Whirlwind of Blades had a legit issue that it dealt piercing damage, it was fixed with no compensation
* Whisperknife had an at will power made it finally competitive, nerfed and now useless again
* Scoundrels were overperforming before, gotten a nerf on demand, now its an obsolete path

I could go on, but, my point is TR is the most-nerfed class in this game. Incidentally, it's also the most naturally broken class... imagine how, even past all that without any major buffs in other areas, there happens to be an endless list of things that could be abused. I dont know maybe it's by design, maybe it's just bad concept, but for the lack of better words.. since the beginning it always seemed that this class exceled at playing dirty.

plavia

with new weapon set, ~50% more damage. SE is crazy strong.
now even a 4K+ HR with the new weapon set kill me in one hit.

damage go high by hugh numbers and tenacity bonuses that came with new sets are not enough or not effective.

so far the dev tactic was allways to buff us more... lets see what will come next

trgluestickz

rustlord said:

Not to take anything away from your point, yes CB goes through all immunities, which is on some levels is another kind of HAMSTER, but CB in itself doesn't deal damage. It's a means to and end. To a few TRs like myself, it's the only way to land my at will, the only source of damage at all. It's a lot of work compared to setting up a Shocking/Shadow of Demise for an easy kill.

Suppose we destroy both SE and CB, you're looking at a new breed of TR abusing the hell out of Bloodbath. So with all respect to everyone, I just think the underlying issue is being able to use dailies too frequently. This is a global problem that applies to all classes, not just the TR.

This I find to be a much more reasonable take. Using dailies constantly is a cure all right now, the more often you can use them, the more effective you are in PVP, its not just a TR thing. SE and CB are the strongest of a tiny handful of powers TRs have right now that have managed to stay potent enough to continue using. They are strong but its mostly how often we can use them paired with the lack of other effective ways to build TRs that is making them problematic. The many nerfs TRs have gotten over time rarely come with any buffs to other parts of the class. We are not op, we are on life support and all of our eggs fall into the same fragile shrinking basket. When that basket drops, we will need our other features buffed and reworked in order to keep us competitive with other classes and to fix our lack of variety. Otherwise we will go from simply being at our weakest point in many mods to being completely gutted.

demonmonger

Mhm, my worries are that the class rebalancing will destroy our class for the last time. Shocking execution is needed, at times.

icyphish

the concept of SE is good, its reasonable to have a counter measurement for tanky targets, but when it hits 170k+ or 250k+ with ITF its just wrong, just how many players u see have 250k+ HP？ For guilds without HP boon its hard to even reach 170k+ for most toons, let alone 2 classes has no way to dodge it.

demonmonger

The people that chose those classes knew and know they have no dodge skills... that was their choice not ours.

burndownxmas

But they might not have known they were going to get shafted in end game pvp when picking their first character

sh00termcl0vin

Any move daily or etc. that can kill someone in one hit with full PvP gear and 200k+ hp from full health is just wrong. Not to mention the fact that the SB glitch works in conjunction with it to make it an almost guaranteed kill.

Lots of classes have burst capability (some arguably more than others like combat HRs) but the TR with the right buffs is still the highest single target one hitter on any class regardless of their tenacity or defenses. Unfortunately this is all the class has.

This conversation has been had multiple times with the general consensus being that first strike not SE is the main culprit. If there is a nerf however there needs to be compensation elsewhere (aka a buff to at wills and encounters) in order to keep the class viable in pvp. I don't think anyone wants to see a wave of courage breaker slaves running around following combat HRs in PvP, seeing as that would be the only viable path left should a nerf without some buffs happen.

rustlord

Frankly, can't wait for this nerf to happen -- all discussions leading up to this agree to a point that encounter and at will powers should get a buff. Either that is totally happening, or there's gonna be the most massive rage quitting in the history of this game. But if that's what it takes you know we're all down for it. Just look in the TR forums, find the last viable PvE build there, read it, and see how it's miserably reduced to a bunch of numeric equations that only people with Ph.D.s to their name would fully understand... and it doesn't help that you need to be 4k with tripple bonding companion to be useful at all in PvE. This is how horrid it looks in the wake of all the stacked up PvP nerfs.

I'm inclined to believe that the devs get this, but they're just too scared of the amount of work it entails. Why risk all of us quitting right now, when you can keep us hanging by a thread for another module or two? Considering the short lifespan of our devs, I personally wouldn't hold it against them that they don't want to be caught up in this big HAMSTER mess before they resign or get fired.

demonmonger

We have to go after the producers not the devs

santralafax

I dunno. We've been talking about nerfing or not-nerfing SE and what should be done to improve TRs since at least Mod 6, when I started paying attention. And while it might change in light of the new weapons, I'm not holding my breath.

@demonmonger As far as knowing or not knowing about didge skills, GWF is my second class. GF was my first--so not having a dodge was just status quo. GF, GWF, SW & OP is about half of the available classes. Are we really supposed to pick a class based on TR's daily???

I like playing fighters. Only fighter with a dodge is Ranger.

demonmonger

Sw has a dodge bro...
First second of the evasive shift move puts immunity frames around the sw, same as the tr... you can dodge it as sw bro...

And I was not making a jab at you by saying it's their fault for picking the class... just saying if they picked a class that can't dodge that just how it is. However, just like warlock got reworked, maybe gf will get immunity frames for 1 second when shield first goes up to counter shocking execution. You never know since other skills got buffed/nerfed just for pvp.

Gwf can avoid shocking execution also, two ways..... 1 run out of range, 2 leap off the screen.

Gf can use that skill that puts a red line on the floor and knock the tr down before shocking execution is cast.

Op can use the area stun skill and stop shocking execution mid flight as well.

So.... um... yea? You don't have to pick a class to combat tr, just pick skills and choose tactics that work vs tr.
@santralafax

d4rkh0rs3

@demonmonger are you new to animation canceling SE?

demonmonger

Do you mean.. tr canceling se by rolling?
@d4rkh0rs3

I'm not new to much in this game.
/played shows my total time spent in game. Most of my time was spent testing theories and combat tactics.

rustlord

As far as I know, GF block reduces the damage from Shocking. If you can prove it otherwise, go for it. OP, after a certain tier, would just eat your SE. I've done a few 200K hits on OP and... surprise surprise, no damage. Really, it's just down to GWF and SW but no one is disputing that they have it worse. If anything, add a non-piercable DR to their sprint and shadow slip.

demonmonger

Gwf can jump into the air to avoid se.
Shadow slip can avoid se.

burndownxmas

Yeah GWFs using mighty leap works about one time on a rogue then it turns into a guessing game on when the real SE will hit, mighty leap is a single use with a decent cool down so it's pretty inadequate for a dodge. As for SW immunity frames a rogue cancels one time on SE and game over warlock. I stand by the idea of damage reduction for their sprints to off set the damage, that or change tenacity to damage reduction vice damage resistance.