still 90% of community does not play it.5% of the community cheese its way through it
You know why people cheese through ? HAMSTER rewards at the end. If it was worth spending the time, people would've ran FBI like they're supposed to. Just like all the other dungeons.
Now. Lets remember a few things:
Throne of Idris Dread Vault Old CN Old Frozen Heart Old Caverns of Karrundax
Do these names remind you of something ?
One new raid/dungeon, a crapton dungeons removed and never seen again...
Then...
Then, the rage is not about the key change itself, but the way it was presented plus the fact that you're guided once more to the ZEN store for keys that will yield trash rewards 99% of the time.
It' aint only about the Key changes that's for sure, its about how this game's management decides and pushes forward changes not listening to a great number of players telling them it's gonna be bad for the player base.
See you in two mods.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The key change, changes a lot of things. As you said most of the time the second chest loot is not inspiring, when it's a second chest, plenty of places only have one chest. Now we can choose if to trade it for a key or not. So at the end we always have positive gain, we do a dungeon, we get progress, small but progress.
With the change, we can do a dungeon, and the drop from both chests will be lower than the cost of that single key. Does it sounds ok to you ?
About the drop rate, whatever it is, having a second chest doubles the chance. not 0.04. not 0.03, always x2. Double the chance means half the runs, and with so low chances it's the difference between really hard to get that ring / item or impossible to get it. Because if you need over 2000 runs of PoM to get a ring (and not the one you want). It's not viable for most people or their sanity. So the change from improbable to practically impossible is in fact a pay-wall.
About relic you are right, and yet, I can open it when I see a ring there or enough other things that compensate for the key, and not only the box in a box.
About 5: just "what?" This is not how chance works. double the keys & chests -> double the chance -> double the 'luck'. There is nothing else about it. Whoever always peeks the second chest (assuming same legendery rate, but more likely it's even higher for the second chest) is twice more likely to 'get lucky' and win. Or at least not loose. And now we gonna loose.
6. What grief ? What farming ? What enjoying ? If you have an issue with some specific players, it has no bearing on this change. We are talking about keys and loot here. Nothing of this point is related.
In any case there is only single thing unbound there, that can be sold and it's the artifact. And how the hell someone selling something is griefing. Seriously. And how many repetitions of the same dungeon you would enjoy ? After few hundred I don't need to stop to sight see CN, I can close my eyes and see it if I try hard enough. And it's not your place to judge other people time. I personally can't run 10 CN per day, so I prefer that my runs will count for something and wont be a loss. I don't see how me paying to run a dungeon is an acceptable model.
7. Not correct. Eventually it's should be achievable for everyone. This is a fundamental thing in entertainment. Indeed it should take time and / or resources so only people who are willing to invest those will get something to signify that investment. But it's not the same as just preventing most of the population from getting it by pay-wall, yes, it is, and I've explained it further in earlier post. when the average number of runs needed is in thousands - not achievable for items that keep their worth 1-2 mods, and the only way to half it is by buying zen keys, it's indeed a pay-wall. Having a free chest is nice, but it's nothing in global view because the chance is to low.
About the other things:
Alts: I don't think that getting in FBI BtC non-class item is Alt-friendly.
Mod10: I don't do alts, and yet I'm skipping this mod and 10.5 . But I don't see you running around in fully restored armor, ready to go vivfied. With all the boons and 100k blood to spare.
FBI: Yes, it's nice, and the mod10 zones are nice. But how many times you expect people to run for the challenge. Did it for the challenge, and now what ? Our gaming habits are fine. The whole premise of MMORPGs is harder content -> better gear -> harder content -> repeat. But you can't expect me to run hundreds of times without any gain. That is indeed disrespecting my time.
mod 10 added plenty of nice things, zones, music, main screen, I even liked the blizzard. But that's not the point, and 1 chopping animation is also not the point.
I usually don't participate in threads of epic QQ,but for this thread I will make an exception.
Maybe one of the 100+ persons here will listen to me and reevaluate some facts.
First of all,as concerning key changes themselves.Ok it was a feature and not a bug,or at least it was a bug in the begining,but after 2+ years of not responding to it,company made it a feature de facto. So why the change?Cause company,as all companies do,needs money and wants to assure,that its new content-Svardborg-will be run by a great percentage of its veteran players and geared players ,and not skipped like FBI.
Describe the above behaviour as what you want,but in essense ,in a grand scheme,this is not a behaviour totally unexpected ,in a world we live in. If just the company was honest would have 100% of my support(and i will expose the reasons of my support below),just now cause it was not completely honest ,ok i can live with that.
And i think again "if they were honest anyway,this would not stop the epic QQ threads cause NW community is a toxic one,pretty clueless in many things and would go into a nerd mode anyway).
So bottom point:NW COMMUNITY IS OVEREACTING.
KEY CHANGES FOR THE GREAT PERCENT THAT WROTE IN THESE FORUMS,THEY WILL CHANGE NOTHING.
Why?Why dear players you are overacting ,create a negative aura about the game and harming it?At least for all us the rest ,who don't agree?
-----------------------------
1.The second chest was giving HAMSTER rewards 95% of the time.I had run dozens of edemo and dozens of CN.The best i got from key chest was some Radiant/dark/azure R8s.(5-6 total) So,for most of us,you will lose absolutely nothing.there was nothing there to lose.
2.For 99% of wanted items,they also drop from defeated bosses or from normal chest.So ,you are not gated behind a pay wall as you describe.Still you can win these items.
3.The drop rate of legendary items is near 0,03 % .if you think that peeking into the second chest widens your spectrum of possibilities then ok,you are now at 0,04 %.Biggg diference.
4.For the BiS gear -armor in the game,Relic,you had to open a chest within a chest anyway,so you had to spend the key anyway.no change there.
5.For farming parties running CN:as said in point 2,if you have the luck this day,a legendary item will drop anyway.
6.for farming parties running CN:If you are able to run CN at max 10-12 mins as most, x 8-10 times per day, and bear it doing it 8-10 times in a row,obviously the sense of time has no meaning to you:dedicating all this time to run with out enjoying it ,a content in order to sell items and grief the younger playerbase. I would say-no trolling there- I meant it guys and i believe it:Ok run it some more,no harm given.For reasons above ^^^^
7.A legendary item should honor its name:A legendary item ,having the drop rates some off you want ,would not be a legendary item any more,since 90% of community would have it.
8.Some raise concern about these items and how valuable they are ,and how they would benefit their char:BS. You can do any good char at any class with out any legendary item (Horn,set,orange rings). In this MMO,and in any MMO,by definition,any loot difference compared it to the previous best choise;is minimal. there are other ways to improve your char,a legendary drop will be the cherry in the cake ,but not the defining factor.
----------------------------------
I would write more:
For example,if you love and like this game so much,then by havens,from time to time,buy some ZEn.You know../?? To support the company that gives you a game totally free,enhanced with new content every 4 freakin' months.
I saw so many miscalculated thoughts here:
- "Neverwinter is Alt unfriendly".it is not.it is one of the most alt friendly games.most gear is BoA.What else do you want?i don;t get it.
- "Grind in mod10 is too much:i play a DC ,but i don;t have time to make BiS my GWf/Cw aswell.Not fair.Takes too much time. Ok Mr obvious for you , will make the game ,able to do BiS toons by playing 2 hours per day.Why not?You asked it.
- "Neverwinter does not add new content" ROLFMAO.Mod 10,FBI dungeon,a marvellous dungeon and fun to play ,with all its shortcomings,yet 90% of you don't play it ..cause "it has crappy rewards"
YOU KNOW SOMETIMES IF YOU PLAY A GAME YOU DO IT FOR FUN AND CHALLENGE YOU KNOW?
IF YOU ARE SO OBSESSED ABOUT REWARDS THEN YOU HAVE TO RECONSIDER YOUR GAMING BEHAVIOUR.
-"we support the company ,why this behaviour?" Bullshiit.What a pile of crappp.You support nothing.90% of you did not ever bought some ZEN,you are QQing all the time,you skip content,and you want things for free.(no time,no money,no grind)
Mod10 is a great work.new UI,new starting screen,new music,new gear,new 3 (three!!) zones,two of them are marvelous.lonelywood and cold run!!
Cold run has a secret easter agg-location with an NPC that teleports tyou randomly ,even atop of giants's ship sails!Do you know that??Of course not since you never explored the content that the company gave you for free. (thanks Behemoth that you pointed me to that direction,i have seen that anomaly in the map,but i would never found that so fast myself )
mod10 added one playable animation-chopping trees.everything counts.especially in that midst of nihilistic community response.
FBI: a wonderfull new dungeon ,hell of fun to play,still 90% of community does not play it.5% of the community cheese its way through it (ambush rings,hadar arms,etc...) or taking two tanks classes .take one if you want a challenge.But yeah bold words pre release are always that:Bold words and hypocricy.
These from me:I know for what written above,I will be accused but I swear I mean all of the things I wrote ,I believe all of them.i don't want to flame or to troll.I just believe what I wrote.
Sorry for the long post in advance.For anything offended:nothing personal. For young players that read these:No problem with you guys,the veterans HAMSTER me off,not you.
Good game and loot to all!!!
HAMSTER palease. Cryptic have done more harm with one change than the community contributed to with all their toxicity.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
This is the first time I post somethings, because of this change. I think, as co-leader of a small guild without alliance and all players are friends in RL, this dungeon Keys thing, bug or feat or whatever is, will create to us a big problem: we won't survive. We run dungeons and skirmishes and trials, and atm we are forced to decline some contents of the chest because of their value . The rewards in VT or MC or ELOL are always less then 5000 AD/3500 with VIP, the price of an epic key, the rewards in the second chest are not worth at all the 20 hours to craft the key, and sure never the price of a leggendary key at 25000 AD. This is just crazy. In ECC, EGWD, and ETOS we usualliy decline belts and rings, if not with the free daily key, but 70% of the times we find those. The mid bosses in dungeons are not dropping savageable anymore, just insignas or peridots if we are lucky, and the last bosses peridots or aquas (only some T1). Even in CN we feel lucky when we find a R6 or R7 dropped by Orcus, because the first boss in CN drops very rarely and the second one never lately, we think is bugged or somthing like that. Here too the second chest is declined 90% of the times because of some +1 or +2 rings and a shard of Shadowclad, and the price of a legendary key is not justified at all. We don't run FBI for 2 reasons: 1) because some guildmates cannot enter, and we run contents only as guild, 2) because we are not having fun at all been forced to do HEs for hours for voins and prayng to find boots, here too always R5 from end game maps HEs.
here's the thing, I would like to ask @mimicking#6533 or @terramak or any other dev, what a small guild have to do to survive and to feed our SH mimic without a such big loss (50ZEN/25K AD key vs average <5k AD rewards)? As devs did you thought about the impact this change will have on small guilds? I would like some mods like @ironzerg79 or @tripsofthrymr or @kreatyve answer the same question, how can a small guild will survive after this change with the SH mimic to feed?
Thank you for the reply, if you will reply at this, and sorry if I'm just wasting your time.
Since this bug has been live for a long time and we believe that some players may have come to rely on this bug, we are providing advance notice of the change.
As part of this change we are also lowering the cost of the Zen store item “Legendary Dragon Key 5-Pack” from 300 Zen to 250 Zen.
I say dont fix anything cause its work! and “Legendary Dragon Key 5-Pack” from 300 Zen to 350 win win.
Oh hey everyone! I am just here to show you the fabulous loot you can win already and will win after this nerf in FBI.
It only took me 4 hours to complete FBI today and a bit of money for some AMAZING legendary dragon keys to get this amazing loot...You won't believe how amazing it is...this is what I got!
and from that amazing purple box that everyone wants from the second chest you have to use a crafted key or legendary key on I got this super duper amazing...[Flawless Sapphire] *throws confetti*
I am sure everyone is BEGGING to get this loot too! I know I am! *balloons* I have so much use for rank 8's as a 3,3k CW that already has rank 10+ to even get into FBI. Plus, it is not like I can farm 6k Voneblood in 15-20 min or get a Elven Raid armor from eToS which takes about 15 min max to complete. No! And I most definitely am not going to kill one little group of mobs to win a flawless sapphire from my dragon's hoard.
Thanks Neverwinter! You are the PANDA frigging best!
(Ok, the 4 hour run was way too long. We had a few breaks, trial and error with new players and finding a replacement healer after ours had to go for dinner. But still the average is 1-2 hours which is still waaaaay to frigging long for this type of loot! The box in a box is ridiculous.)
Random based average groups with r12s.. will take between 30-45 mins.. maybe 60 at maximum.
I get your point but I am sorry. Rank 12's all around ain't average at all.
I've done FBI several times, runs that were not 4 hour nightmares. You're not going to tell me that 45 min is what beginner to medium groups will spend inside this dungeon. The loot is still not worth the time spend in there at all. The 2nd chest is the worst, but the first one ain't amazing either.
Ultimately it seems it all boils down to whether or not a person is likely to get something worthwhile to them from buying and using keys to open either dropboxes or dungeon chests, or at least that's my take.
First of all as I said the items obtained from using a key should have some (actual) value to the person who purchases and uses those keys this to me means that even if a person gets something from a lockbox or a chest they cannot personally use, they should be able to either market that item on the Auction House to recover at least a portion of their expense - or there should be some way for them to use the item as "salvage" or "refinement" to augment an item they already have.
IMO we don't need to have previews of what is in anything opened with a key, so long as it has some kind of marketable value (I don't really consider disposing of items at a merchant for gold and a fraction of the worth that the item cost to obtain "marketable value") that a player can use to recuperate at least some small fraction of their initial expense.
Failing to do so seems senseless and counter productive to me and not conducive to inciting people to purchase keys or run content where those keys could be used to begin with.
And that's why I don't buy keys.
I think the only saving grace for NW/PWE here is that the influx of newer players won't have any idea how things used to be and for them spending money to buy keys that open chests that contain basically 'junk' to use the kindest player discriptor I can think of - will be 'normal' to them - and the thinking that those who have already invested so much into the game to get them where they are will stay because of their past investments.
Neverwinter better hope the popularity of their game with new player continues to thrive because I believe it will be primarially those new payers giving them money, the established players the ones who have been financially supporting them for years appear to be getting fed up and eventually even despite what they already have invested in the game - they will move on.
Random based average groups with r12s.. will take between 30-45 mins.. maybe 60 at maximum.
The first chest was fine..
the second is where its screwed up.. the box , inside of a box, is STUPID. Which is why I will not be going for this armor.
Its already STUPID to start with.. as you have to get the vblood and lanolin.. but they made it even MORE stupid by putting it in that box..
First chest is still stupid because it can potentially not even have salvage in it : \
I've done FBI runs where I haven't gotten salvage from either chest or any of the bosses.
Next mod kind of fixes the gating problem with the 10% ER potion and 5% kits.
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patcherrkmMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 127Arc User
Money talks people.
If they see an uptick on people buying keys from the zen store, then this was a good way for them to monetize things in their interest.
On the flip side if everyone refuses to buy keys and their revenue goes down, then they have to consider this change a financial failure.
The players ultimately get to dictate by what we are willing to purchase. So if you start using zen to purchase legendary dragon keys, then you're going to solidify that this way it will stay.
took me about 30 key to get my relic armor complete (4parts to use and 10 to salvage) ... (I know fcking lucker) but with abou 60 runs you should have at least 3 parts for setbonus....if rng for +5 rings, artefacts and the new marks for the final weaponupgrade in the new skirmish would be like this...i wouldn´t complain as much as I do now... but I realy doubt that it will be like this in the future
Well I did a FBI run in 1 hour this time around, with 2 DC and and a very strong GWF for insane dps. In that case; yes it's very well doable and this time around the loot drop rate at least was better. The total worth of the loot I got was 45k, which is not bad for 1 hour. However, I stick with my statement that for any regular beginner to medium group it would be better to farm something easier within the time span of an hour and end up with the same amount of AD if not more. In that aspect I think FBI has not proven it's worth yet in reward vs difficulty and I see no reason why to use these keys when the loot is either useless, bound or easily gained otherwise.
I did win a [Frayed Manaseeker's Assault Armlets] so I got lucky this round.
Neverwinter better hope the popularity of their game with new player continues to thrive because I believe it will be primarially those new payers giving them money, the established players the ones who have been financially supporting them for years appear to be getting fed up and eventually even despite what they already have invested in the game - they will move on.
But even those can easily enough do their math. If they can expect to sink hundreds of bucks in keys in the game in form of a raffle without getting the (virtual) item they want for their character, most will quickly lose interest.
and that was then.. with change?
This is why the change is bad.. it will be even worse with the raid.
People think we are complaining about loot, its not even loot to me, its the lockdown on progression and putting a huge wall up for players to advance in game without paying per run.
Not that I was all that keen about any of thew new stuff, I wasnt. I hate everything they are doing, the direction of the game.. is just way.. way off to me.
ITs also very boring, some of the most very boring stuff they have done.
I feel bad that I haven't progressed my tank far through mod 10 yet. I did a few quests after unlocking Lonelywood and thought that the whole thing was too boring to work through. It's like Sharandar to me. I can't get passed the second boon in that campaign cause the whole area - or three areas - don't engage my interest. At all.
I won't be ready for FBI when a lot of my guildies are ready because I'm just not feeling it. And this change makes it much worse. I question my future with the game, cause it's plainly obvious the incompetence is only going to get worse. The Gring is just ridiculous! And this coming from someone that farmed Raster of Guk for over 200 hours!
Too much despicable cash grabbing. None, zero, zilch ownership and accountability. The list goes on and on.
They're taking a great game and purposely making it a terrible, and sucky piece of mediocrity. It's just awe inspiring in its lunacy.....
This is the first time I post somethings, because of this change. I think, as co-leader of a small guild without alliance and all players are friends in RL, this dungeon Keys thing, bug or feat or whatever is, will create to us a big problem: we won't survive.
We run dungeons and skirmishes and trials, and atm we are forced to decline some contents of the chest because of their value . The rewards in VT or MC or ELOL are always less then 5000 AD/3500 with VIP, the price of an epic key, the rewards in the second chest are not worth at all the 20 hours to craft the key, and sure never the price of a leggendary key at 25000 AD. This is just crazy.
In ECC, EGWD, and ETOS we usualliy decline belts and rings, if not with the free daily key, but 70% of the times we find those.
The mid bosses in dungeons are not dropping savageable anymore, just insignas or peridots if we are lucky, and the last bosses peridots or aquas (only some T1).
Even in CN we feel lucky when we find a R6 or R7 dropped by Orcus, because the first boss in CN drops very rarely and the second one never lately, we think is bugged or somthing like that. Here too the second chest is declined 90% of the times because of some +1 or +2 rings and a shard of Shadowclad, and the price of a legendary key is not justified at all.
We don't run FBI for 2 reasons: 1) because some guildmates cannot enter, and we run contents only as guild, 2) because we are not having fun at all been forced to do HEs for hours for voins and prayng to find boots, here too always R5 from end game maps HEs.
here's the thing, I would like to ask @mimicking#6533 or @terramak or any other dev, what a small guild have to do to survive and to feed our SH mimic without a such big loss (50ZEN/25K AD key vs average <5k AD rewards)? As devs did you thought about the impact this change will have on small guilds?
I would like some mods like @ironzerg79 or @tripsofthrymr or @kreatyve answer the same question, how can a small guild will survive after this change with the SH mimic to feed?
Thank you for the reply, if you will reply at this, and sorry if I'm just wasting your time.
Regards
Miki
This post reminded me that another impact of the changes are not being discussed enough. Non-VIPs essentially can only run one dungeon per day with their free key, because running more is going to net them a minus on average. Again: We need a complete rework of the chest loot with such a change.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Players aren't going to burn themselves out in a effort to make use of this "bug". They're already burnt out by the appalling drop rates, and that, the very crux of this issue, Cryptic seem to be oblivious to.
I just read 472 posts added since the last time I had viewed this thread. To what end? Hah... you guys know it's because I actually give a kitten what y'all think. And because I don't feel like logging into the game for invoking, professions, and grinding right now, and what I really need to do is spend the next 4+ hours standing at a mailbox trying to sort out my profession hamsters because I hardcore need to craft stronghold resources for my guild. It's exhausting just thinking about it, though catching up on this thread is exhausting too. ( @checkmatein3 )
But I am drinking $250 scotch. I hadn't tasted this batch before buying it, but I knew what the distillery is capable of making and trusted them to deliver an amazing product for my moneys. I am not disappointed.
Players aren't going to burn themselves out in a effort to make use of this "bug". They're already burnt out by the appalling drop rates, and that, the very crux of this issue, Cryptic seem to be oblivious to.
I just read 472 posts added since the last time I had viewed this thread. To what end? Hah... you guys know it's because I actually give a kitten what y'all think. And because I don't feel like logging into the game for invoking, professions, and grinding right now, and what I really need to do is spend the next 4+ hours standing at a mailbox trying to sort out my profession hamsters because I hardcore need to craft stronghold resources for my guild. It's exhausting just thinking about it, though catching up on this thread is exhausting too. ( @checkmatein3 )
But I am drinking $250 scotch. I hadn't tasted this batch before buying it, but I knew what the distillery is capable of making and trusted them to deliver an amazing product for my moneys. I am not disappointed.
My problem, my stomach can't bare alcoholics, so i stay with Karamalz. Oh well, at least it tastes superb.
Anyways the more i think about this, the more i see another big problem here. The loot is HAMSTER we all know it, the pure money orientated changes with deadish ZAX are also a part of it, but the biggest problem in my eyes is the ever smaller option to choose.
The grind is so horrible, that if one wants to optimize his/her playtime, it's inevitable to run only the same content over and over and over and it brings burning out closer.
Since days i suffer this too, if i have small time i do a few normal ToS for fast and easy AD and a few skirmishes maybe or just ToS on more toons. If i have a bit more i do eToS or CN and some skirmishes too and if i am in a very masochistic mood, maybe a few PVP.
I have just finished the new Mod 2 days ago, but holly Jesus i can't bring my poor eyes to do it on another toon, meh.
My point is, since they took us all the cool dungeons and only reintroduced a few back as leveling ones, it's simply not worth to do any others than just normal ToS and if one has all the time of the world, even then it's hard to find people for say eGWD, cause the loot/time ratio is so bad, not many run it.
With dead Foundry, very small number of dungeons with HAMSTER loot, deadish PVP, no SCA anymore the options are so limited, it is natural to get burnt out after a while and we all know since Mod 6 nearly all Mods are just fillers, no real content. Sadly Cryptic doesn't seem to think as we do, you can't get players happy and happy customer at the same time with endless INF farming, we need real content (small hint, name of the game is Dungeons and Dragons ) and rewards that are worth to fight for and in the reach of every player, not just a select few.
Ok, i better go and take a huge sip on my Karamalz...
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
About the drop rate, whatever it is, having a second chest doubles the chance. not 0.04. not 0.03, always x2.
That's not correct. The simple explanation goes like this...
We have a chest. The chest contains a grand price with a chance of p = 0.02 (the actual chance doesn't matter). Now we have a second chest with the same grand price and the same chance. If the chance to get the grand price when opening both chests would be the sum of the individual chances we would only have to do 50 runs to have a 100% chance of getting the grand price. It should be obvious that this is not the case.
So what't the chance of the grand price then? Let's see.
When opening two chests we can get the following results with the following chances.
check that date for T-bar, it was dated back in feb 2016, they had done nothing to fix or update.
anyway, it is very old news, and we all still waiting, it is almost getting a year since they posted by less than 4 months to be a year, but it is over a year since they took out last year fall season. they know that they are not selling that much. too many players went boycotting. they said it and they claim to, but it is all talks, we all know talks is cheap and do nothing. all the months they wasted is by doing the nerf and more nerfs. they have different priorities than doing what they promised, and it is extremely long over due and counting.
2 chests should have different loot tables, master loots and dragon loots. i still dont know why both have same ugly RNG format. let kill that RNG and buried so deep, only RNG that can be used are for those Lockboxes, nowhere else.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
About the drop rate, whatever it is, having a second chest doubles the chance. not 0.04. not 0.03, always x2.
That's not correct. The simple explanation goes like this...
We have a chest. The chest contains a grand price with a chance of p = 0.02 (the actual chance doesn't matter). Now we have a second chest with the same grand price and the same chance. If the chance to get the grand price when opening both chests would be the sum of the individual chances we would only have to do 50 runs to have a 100% chance of getting the grand price. It should be obvious that this is not the case.
So what't the chance of the grand price then? Let's see.
When opening two chests we can get the following results with the following chances.
Summing up the cases were we get a price gives us a chance of 0.02 * 0.02 + 2 * 0.02 * 0.98 = 0.0396.
To make it easier: when opening n chests the chance for getting the grand price at least once is 1 - (1-p)^n.
This let's us also compute how many runs we need to get the grand price with a certain chance k.
We need to solve 1 - (1-p)^n > k for n, which gives us n > log(1-k) / log(1-p).
To get at least one grand price with a chance of 99.9% we need to open 342 chests (p = 0.02).
Currently we can open 342 chests in 171 runs. In the future we would have to do 342 runs.
You are right. But.... 0.0396... and 0.04.... The lower the chance the closer it will be to x2 (But yes, the always x2 was not correct, I should have been more accurate).
Comments
Whole mod of recycled game assets.
"one playable animation"....really ? You know why people cheese through ?
HAMSTER rewards at the end.
If it was worth spending the time, people would've ran FBI like they're supposed to.
Just like all the other dungeons.
Now.
Lets remember a few things:
Throne of Idris
Dread Vault
Old CN
Old Frozen Heart
Old Caverns of Karrundax
Do these names remind you of something ?
One new raid/dungeon, a crapton dungeons removed and never seen again...
Then...
Then, the rage is not about the key change itself, but the way it was presented plus the fact that you're guided once more to the ZEN store for keys that will yield trash rewards 99% of the time.
It' aint only about the Key changes that's for sure, its about how this game's management decides and pushes forward changes not listening to a great number of players telling them it's gonna be bad for the player base.
See you in two mods.
With the change, we can do a dungeon, and the drop from both chests will be lower than the cost of that single key. Does it sounds ok to you ?
About the drop rate, whatever it is, having a second chest doubles the chance. not 0.04. not 0.03, always x2. Double the chance means half the runs, and with so low chances it's the difference between really hard to get that ring / item or impossible to get it. Because if you need over 2000 runs of PoM to get a ring (and not the one you want). It's not viable for most people or their sanity.
So the change from improbable to practically impossible is in fact a pay-wall.
About relic you are right, and yet, I can open it when I see a ring there or enough other things that compensate for the key, and not only the box in a box.
About 5: just "what?" This is not how chance works. double the keys & chests -> double the chance -> double the 'luck'. There is nothing else about it. Whoever always peeks the second chest (assuming same legendery rate, but more likely it's even higher for the second chest) is twice more likely to 'get lucky' and win. Or at least not loose. And now we gonna loose.
6. What grief ? What farming ? What enjoying ? If you have an issue with some specific players, it has no bearing on this change. We are talking about keys and loot here. Nothing of this point is related.
In any case there is only single thing unbound there, that can be sold and it's the artifact. And how the hell someone selling something is griefing. Seriously.
And how many repetitions of the same dungeon you would enjoy ? After few hundred I don't need to stop to sight see CN, I can close my eyes and see it if I try hard enough.
And it's not your place to judge other people time. I personally can't run 10 CN per day, so I prefer that my runs will count for something and wont be a loss. I don't see how me paying to run a dungeon is an acceptable model.
7. Not correct. Eventually it's should be achievable for everyone. This is a fundamental thing in entertainment. Indeed it should take time and / or resources so only people who are willing to invest those will get something to signify that investment. But it's not the same as just preventing most of the population from getting it by pay-wall, yes, it is, and I've explained it further in earlier post. when the average number of runs needed is in thousands - not achievable for items that keep their worth 1-2 mods, and the only way to half it is by buying zen keys, it's indeed a pay-wall. Having a free chest is nice, but it's nothing in global view because the chance is to low.
About the other things:
Alts: I don't think that getting in FBI BtC non-class item is Alt-friendly.
Mod10: I don't do alts, and yet I'm skipping this mod and 10.5 . But I don't see you running around in fully restored armor, ready to go vivfied. With all the boons and 100k blood to spare.
FBI: Yes, it's nice, and the mod10 zones are nice. But how many times you expect people to run for the challenge. Did it for the challenge, and now what ? Our gaming habits are fine. The whole premise of MMORPGs is harder content -> better gear -> harder content -> repeat.
But you can't expect me to run hundreds of times without any gain. That is indeed disrespecting my time.
mod 10 added plenty of nice things, zones, music, main screen, I even liked the blizzard. But that's not the point, and 1 chopping animation is also not the point.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
We run dungeons and skirmishes and trials, and atm we are forced to decline some contents of the chest because of their value . The rewards in VT or MC or ELOL are always less then 5000 AD/3500 with VIP, the price of an epic key, the rewards in the second chest are not worth at all the 20 hours to craft the key, and sure never the price of a leggendary key at 25000 AD. This is just crazy.
In ECC, EGWD, and ETOS we usualliy decline belts and rings, if not with the free daily key, but 70% of the times we find those.
The mid bosses in dungeons are not dropping savageable anymore, just insignas or peridots if we are lucky, and the last bosses peridots or aquas (only some T1).
Even in CN we feel lucky when we find a R6 or R7 dropped by Orcus, because the first boss in CN drops very rarely and the second one never lately, we think is bugged or somthing like that. Here too the second chest is declined 90% of the times because of some +1 or +2 rings and a shard of Shadowclad, and the price of a legendary key is not justified at all.
We don't run FBI for 2 reasons: 1) because some guildmates cannot enter, and we run contents only as guild, 2) because we are not having fun at all been forced to do HEs for hours for voins and prayng to find boots, here too always R5 from end game maps HEs.
here's the thing, I would like to ask @mimicking#6533 or @terramak or any other dev, what a small guild have to do to survive and to feed our SH mimic without a such big loss (50ZEN/25K AD key vs average <5k AD rewards)? As devs did you thought about the impact this change will have on small guilds?
I would like some mods like @ironzerg79 or @tripsofthrymr or @kreatyve answer the same question, how can a small guild will survive after this change with the SH mimic to feed?
Thank you for the reply, if you will reply at this, and sorry if I'm just wasting your time.
Regards
Miki
As part of this change we are also lowering the cost of the Zen store item “Legendary Dragon Key 5-Pack” from 300 Zen to 250 Zen.
I say dont fix anything cause its work!
and “Legendary Dragon Key 5-Pack” from 300 Zen to 350 win win.
Works for everyone.. those who want to double thier odds, can buy the keys..
Allows everyone to progress though.
This is a good solution. Otherwise, give a daily vip legendary key at new rank up.. that opens up these items.
There are many solutions.
What isnt a solution, is making ALL new content, purchase key only. That is a bad choice.
I still wish they would look at the grinding/gating level of mod 10 and back down a bit.
Overall the game has increased into the area of.. awwww screw that.. not enough hours in the day.
When the best choice is to just skip it all.. its not designed right.
It only took me 4 hours to complete FBI today and a bit of money for some AMAZING legendary dragon keys to get this amazing loot...You won't believe how amazing it is...this is what I got!
1x [Elven Raid Armlets]
2x [Radiant Enchantment, Rank 8]
6x uncommen [Ostorian Relic]
14x common [Ostorian Relic]
and from that amazing purple box that everyone wants from the second chest you have to use a crafted key or legendary key on I got this super duper amazing...[Flawless Sapphire] *throws confetti*
I am sure everyone is BEGGING to get this loot too! I know I am! *balloons* I have so much use for rank 8's as a 3,3k CW that already has rank 10+ to even get into FBI. Plus, it is not like I can farm 6k Voneblood in 15-20 min or get a Elven Raid armor from eToS which takes about 15 min max to complete. No! And I most definitely am not going to kill one little group of mobs to win a flawless sapphire from my dragon's hoard.
Thanks Neverwinter!
(Ok, the 4 hour run was way too long. We had a few breaks, trial and error with new players and finding a replacement healer after ours had to go for dinner. But still the average is 1-2 hours which is still waaaaay to frigging long for this type of loot! The box in a box is ridiculous.)
The first chest was fine..
the second is where its screwed up.. the box , inside of a box, is STUPID. Which is why I will not be going for this armor.
Its already STUPID to start with.. as you have to get the vblood and lanolin.. but they made it even MORE stupid by putting it in that box..
I've done FBI several times, runs that were not 4 hour nightmares. You're not going to tell me that 45 min is what beginner to medium groups will spend inside this dungeon. The loot is still not worth the time spend in there at all. The 2nd chest is the worst, but the first one ain't amazing either.
First of all as I said the items obtained from using a key should have some (actual) value to the person who purchases and uses those keys this to me means that even if a person gets something from a lockbox or a chest they cannot personally use, they should be able to either market that item on the Auction House to recover at least a portion of their expense - or there should be some way for them to use the item as "salvage" or "refinement" to augment an item they already have.
IMO we don't need to have previews of what is in anything opened with a key, so long as it has some kind of marketable value (I don't really consider disposing of items at a merchant for gold and a fraction of the worth that the item cost to obtain "marketable value") that a player can use to recuperate at least some small fraction of their initial expense.
Failing to do so seems senseless and counter productive to me and not conducive to inciting people to purchase keys or run content where those keys could be used to begin with.
And that's why I don't buy keys.
I think the only saving grace for NW/PWE here is that the influx of newer players won't have any idea how things used to be and for them spending money to buy keys that open chests that contain basically 'junk' to use the kindest player discriptor I can think of - will be 'normal' to them - and the thinking that those who have already invested so much into the game to get them where they are will stay because of their past investments.
Neverwinter better hope the popularity of their game with new player continues to thrive because I believe it will be primarially those new payers giving them money, the established players the ones who have been financially supporting them for years appear to be getting fed up and eventually even despite what they already have invested in the game - they will move on.
But maybe that's just me
I've done FBI runs where I haven't gotten salvage from either chest or any of the bosses.
Next mod kind of fixes the gating problem with the 10% ER potion and 5% kits.
If they see an uptick on people buying keys from the zen store, then this was a good way for them to monetize things in their interest.
On the flip side if everyone refuses to buy keys and their revenue goes down, then they have to consider this change a financial failure.
The players ultimately get to dictate by what we are willing to purchase. So if you start using zen to purchase legendary dragon keys, then you're going to solidify that this way it will stay.
but I realy doubt that it will be like this in the future
I did win a [Frayed Manaseeker's Assault Armlets] so I got lucky this round.
This is why the change is bad.. it will be even worse with the raid.
People think we are complaining about loot, its not even loot to me, its the lockdown on progression and putting a huge wall up for players to advance in game without paying per run.
Not that I was all that keen about any of thew new stuff, I wasnt. I hate everything they are doing, the direction of the game.. is just way.. way off to me.
ITs also very boring, some of the most very boring stuff they have done.
I won't be ready for FBI when a lot of my guildies are ready because I'm just not feeling it. And this change makes it much worse. I question my future with the game, cause it's plainly obvious the incompetence is only going to get worse. The Gring is just ridiculous! And this coming from someone that farmed Raster of Guk for over 200 hours!
Too much despicable cash grabbing. None, zero, zilch ownership and accountability. The list goes on and on.
They're taking a great game and purposely making it a terrible, and sucky piece of mediocrity. It's just awe inspiring in its lunacy.....
This post reminded me that another impact of the changes are not being discussed enough. Non-VIPs essentially can only run one dungeon per day with their free key, because running more is going to net them a minus on average. Again: We need a complete rework of the chest loot with such a change.
I just read 472 posts added since the last time I had viewed this thread. To what end? Hah... you guys know it's because I actually give a kitten what y'all think. And because I don't feel like logging into the game for invoking, professions, and grinding right now, and what I really need to do is spend the next 4+ hours standing at a mailbox trying to sort out my profession hamsters because I hardcore need to craft stronghold resources for my guild. It's exhausting just thinking about it, though catching up on this thread is exhausting too. ( @checkmatein3
But I am drinking $250 scotch. I hadn't tasted this batch before buying it, but I knew what the distillery is capable of making and trusted them to deliver an amazing product for my moneys. I am not disappointed.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I too got one Assault arms in about a dozen runs, feeling too bad to salvage it. I need only Raid armor, nothing else.
You should prolly remove the 'Non Exploit', we know everybody is now xP
My problem, my stomach can't bare alcoholics, so i stay with Karamalz. Oh well, at least it tastes superb.
Anyways the more i think about this, the more i see another big problem here. The loot is HAMSTER we all know it, the pure money orientated changes with deadish ZAX are also a part of it, but the biggest problem in my eyes is the ever smaller option to choose.
The grind is so horrible, that if one wants to optimize his/her playtime, it's inevitable to run only the same content over and over and over and it brings burning out closer.
Since days i suffer this too, if i have small time i do a few normal ToS for fast and easy AD and a few skirmishes maybe or just ToS on more toons. If i have a bit more i do eToS or CN and some skirmishes too and if i am in a very masochistic mood, maybe a few PVP.
I have just finished the new Mod 2 days ago, but holly Jesus i can't bring my poor eyes to do it on another toon, meh.
My point is, since they took us all the cool dungeons and only reintroduced a few back as leveling ones, it's simply not worth to do any others than just normal ToS and if one has all the time of the world, even then it's hard to find people for say eGWD, cause the loot/time ratio is so bad, not many run it.
With dead Foundry, very small number of dungeons with HAMSTER loot, deadish PVP, no SCA anymore the options are so limited, it is natural to get burnt out after a while and we all know since Mod 6 nearly all Mods are just fillers, no real content. Sadly Cryptic doesn't seem to think as we do, you can't get players happy and happy customer at the same time with endless INF farming, we need real content (small hint, name of the game is Dungeons and Dragons
Ok, i better go and take a huge sip on my Karamalz...
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
We have a chest. The chest contains a grand price with a chance of p = 0.02 (the actual chance doesn't matter).
Now we have a second chest with the same grand price and the same chance. If the chance to get the grand
price when opening both chests would be the sum of the individual chances we would only have to do
50 runs to have a 100% chance of getting the grand price. It should be obvious that this is not the case.
So what't the chance of the grand price then? Let's see.
When opening two chests we can get the following results with the following chances.
nothing, nothing = 0.98 * 0.98
price, nothing = 0.02 * 0.98
nothing, price = 0.98 * 0.02
price, price = 0.02 * 0.02
Summing up the cases were we get a price gives us a chance of 0.02 * 0.02 + 2 * 0.02 * 0.98 = 0.0396.
To make it easier: when opening n chests the chance for getting the grand price at least once is 1 - (1-p)^n.
This let's us also compute how many runs we need to get the grand price with a certain chance k.
We need to solve 1 - (1-p)^n > k for n, which gives us n > log(1-k) / log(1-p).
To get at least one grand price with a chance of 99.9% we need to open 342 chests (p = 0.02).
Currently we can open 342 chests in 171 runs. In the future we would have to do 342 runs.
anyway, it is very old news, and we all still waiting, it is almost getting a year since they posted by less than 4 months to be a year, but it is over a year since they took out last year fall season. they know that they are not selling that much. too many players went boycotting.
they said it and they claim to, but it is all talks, we all know talks is cheap and do nothing. all the months they wasted is by doing the nerf and more nerfs.
they have different priorities than doing what they promised, and it is extremely long over due and counting.
let kill that RNG and buried so deep, only RNG that can be used are for those Lockboxes, nowhere else.
But.... 0.0396... and 0.04....
The lower the chance the closer it will be to x2 (But yes, the always x2 was not correct, I should have been more accurate).
Thanks for the correction (not sarcastic).