Well, I will agree with anyone who has said that pugs blaming premades and players of BIS toons blaming players lowly geared toons and vice versa is nonsense. It´s way more rational to unite to BLAME THE SYSTEM instead...;) Cryptic has intentionally set up a system that spoofs any competitive intelligent player no matter if they are playing a BIS toon or a lowly geared toon. They haven´t even given a private q without rewards to BIS players to set up nice matches or tournaments although it would have taken literally next to no effort to implement this. Think about why not. It´s not rocket science...the system they have set up (yes, everything was better in the beginning, when this strategy hadn´t blossomed to full effect yet...unfortunately I wasn´t around back then) does NOT appeal to players´ intelligence, competitiveness etc....it rather caters to the far less than noble instincts. You spend time and/or money you get to be an elephant stomping ants. Admittedly (and unfortunately) this must work to some degree in terms of creating revenue for the company. But it is nevertheless a system that will hit a wall at some point because players´ stupidity and willingness to endure nonsense isn´t infinite. That point may be now? So the way I see it - setting up a solo q without any other improvements will only serve to extend the sickness a while longer before final demise. It´s not a cure and it won´t make me go for PVP even though I´m very bored with PVE. So while I can understand vinceent1´s feeling of having very low expectations at this point...I would advocate for not letting cryptic get away with something as lame and ultimately also unhelpful as solo q. Rather tell them to stop insulting players finally...because that is what such a game design is....an INSULT to any decently intelligent player. They CAN make money without doing this.... So...there´s a ton of suggestions on this forum on how to actually improve the situation...and my guess is that this games´ employees are perfectly capable (theoretically) of coming up with even more because they work on this game every day and (most likely) have studied their craft at some university. So it boils down to a very basic game design decision...go on prolonging the nonsense and milking the sick cow to the bitter end...or make a U-turn and set up something better. Permanent solo q would fall in the former category. Not sure if it´ll make a big difference but it also most definitely will not hurt if players rally and agree on demanding more than that. And since I can understand tolkienbuffs reasoning I think it would be most profitable to come up with a very neat design for premade q. Even thinking about this for 5 minutes my head is brimming with ideas for this...and I guess it would be unreasonable to suspect this games´ designers are uncreative oafs who do not feel the same way. BUT -again- it all boils down a very basic game design decision...the question of whether they are- at this point- willing to make a 180° turn on their design so far...if they go on "rewarding" players for their time and/or money spent by letting them be little terminators (in both PVE and PVP by the way)...then there is no reason to expect good game design and fun in the future of this game.
vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
hm, you should be glad i am loud, dear man
1. i was and i will heavily support any premade lobby or smaller gear gap systems anyone (include metaldjt and tolkienbuff) suggest. i always do and you know it 2. solo que is only feature cryptic is willing to talk to us at the moment, so its worth spread loud word "Yes we really want this asap" its one step into right direction thanks for your time
@pando83 allow me to sum up every post you've ever made about PVP:
PVP guilds are terrible, PVP guilds Killed PVP, PVP guilds exploit, PVP guilds are responsible for the downfall of the game.
Essentially PVP guilds are the illuminati hellbent on wrecking everything good about Neverwinter ... we get it.
I will no longer respond to you because your tin foil hat conspiracy theories and your flagrant misuse and overuse of the term "exploit". You are the very definition of an angry player with an agenda who's bias fuels every salt laden, vitriolic word you proliferate in your novel of hate.
You ask anyone with gear and experience to forfeit their gear, forfeit playing with friends, and forfeit the right to Q for PVP so that you can enjoy the way you play at their expense, all the while blinded by your bias to the fact you are being hypocritical.
Some people can have intelligent discourse and see both sides of an issue... you are not one of them my friend. So, fire away with your jealousy, your impudent rage, and your one sided views. You have proven you are not looking for compromise you're just angry that you can't have everything your way, so you're going to take your ball and go home.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
@tolkienbuff If i delete all those past years of PVP from my hard drive disk and ignore the fact , that a huge majority of PVP guildies ganged up and stomped GG , DOM and every little part oft NWO PVP excessively, I might get to your conclusions .....but you are wrong in most aspects, since you only know NWO PVP from above the pyramid, judging about bad performing pugs who never learn, and maybe you only know your guild or some of your guildies, some are honest, but some are toxic, same with "pugs" If I only think about those guys , who even did not get enough kills in 70 PVP, they just transfered their enchants and rank 10-12 to low level chars to destroy every slightest chance for fresh blood in NWO PVP Absurd, but definitely not done by pugs A solo queue will not solve every problem but it is a start to get more player into PVP and to prefevent some player from getting selfdestrucitve, killing most fun by running 24/7 premade vs pug PVP is at the bottom and a lot of player suffer from collective amnesia about "how did we get there"
@pando83 allow me to sum up every post you've ever made about PVP:
PVP guilds are terrible, PVP guilds Killed PVP, PVP guilds exploit, PVP guilds are responsible for the downfall of the game.
Essentially PVP guilds are the illuminati hellbent on wrecking everything good about Neverwinter ... we get it.
I will no longer respond to you because your tin foil hat conspiracy theories and your flagrant misuse and overuse of the term "exploit". You are the very definition of an angry player with an agenda who's bias fuels every salt laden, vitriolic word you proliferate in your novel of hate.
You ask anyone with gear and experience to forfeit their gear, forfeit playing with friends, and forfeit the right to Q for PVP so that you can enjoy the way you play at their expense, all the while blinded by your bias to the fact you are being hypocritical.
Some people can have intelligent discourse and see both sides of an issue... you are not one of them my friend. So, fire away with your jealousy, your impudent rage, and your one sided views. You have proven you are not looking for compromise you're just angry that you can't have everything your way, so you're going to take your ball and go home.
All you wrote is untrue.
I didn't wrote it's "all fault of PvP guilds" and that all PvP guilds are bad. I wrote that "cryptic gave you the gun, but it's you who used it". It's 50/50. But you can't deny that the past (and partially present) behaviour of most PvP guilds, if not all, contributed to drive players away.
Is it too much to say that PvP guilds could refrain from using T.Fey-T.Neg combo when they knew it was out of reach for 99% of the players and clearly breaking any competition in PvP? Is it too much to say that PvP guilds could at least refrain from farming GG with full premades, or farming domination, and try to at least sync premades? Is it too much to say that broken builds were always discovered and, sorry, exploited, by PvP guilds before they spread to the whole population? While it would have been wiser to just report those builds and DO NOT USE THEM AT ALL OR SPREAD THEM.
Also: i simply wrote that it's needed a solo queue along with the mixed queue so that you can play with your friend and solo queue players don't have to be farmed by PvP guilds premades. Oh my god!! What an unreasonable request.
With your last post tyrion you just brought no arguments against what i wrote. It's just a personal attack with a poor attempt to twist what i wrote. My posts are above and sorry but it's nothing like what you wrote.
I've never been against PvP guilds and i have also many friends in yours and other guilds and i know they are good people. But i have also been playing long enough to know how things went in the past, so i can say today that PvP dying is 50% devs fault, and 50% PvP guilds fault.
Your personal attack on me is not needed and, sorry, 100% out of target. Sorry if my words hurt you but i think that deep inside you know they are true, or you wouldn't reply with such a post, but you would bring true arguments they way you usually do.
@schietindebux I am not wrong. You, and many here make soo many assumptions. You jump to conclusions based on your perspectives that are often biased by being in bad matches or lots of poorly matched games.
I was not BIS till the end of mod 3. I continued to play non BIS alts thereafter. I now have one of each class pretty close to BIS. However I sometimes Q on my highly undergeared alts to get a perspective.
I am 100% right that a large majority of pugs never have, and never will learn to PVP effectively. This is true for a number of reasons.
The first being that if you optimize for PVP then your build is suboptimal for PVE. This you must choose. Pugs either don't know how to or wouldnt opt to spec for PVP as it takes up a minority of their priorities.
The second being if you're a pug, you'll never learn proper rotation, you have to guess where to be, if you're not particularly bright you wind up on pillars or bridges with no peers to tell you that it is poor strategy.
The third being that you likely don't even know what gear to get or have access to it, thus you become a liability and likely won't learn to play your class in PVP as you die too quickly.
I could go on and on sir. Please, don't just assume I have blinders on because I'm BIS. It's simply not true. I also rarely join a full 5 person PM. These are all assumptions that I hear frequently and they are incorrect.
For some reason I get the feeling you guys are defending the Solo Q as though I'm attacking the idea. I have already said in multiple threads that I have no problem with it. I'm not sure why you feel the need to reiterate the urgent need for a solo Q. I've already said it gives any player an RNG chance at a win.
The win or the loss doesn't reflect better PVP however, just a less predictable outcome of which team gets roflstomped. Solo Q does not allow players to improve, it just allows them the opportunity to luck into the better team more often. For that reason pugs will perceive it as a superior Q system, and that's fine with me. Ignorance is bliss, when RNG is on your side.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
In short, since you obviously neglect the existence of Pug stomping premades, and that´s what I witnessed many times (btw I even do not care that much about it), there is not point to discuss, stay in your bubble, these are no assumptions, these are poor facts. Things went slightly better the last mods, but only due to 1. maybe the fact some player grew up and 2. some toxic player left.
Not really. You wrote what PUGs don't do. Which simply adds up to what i wrote before. It's not just about gear or iLvLs. A 4k "pug" would lose to a 4k experienced PvPers, making a iLvL-based mixed queue, pure chaos. Even a "pug" in PvP gear would still fall behind. ELO system and matchmaking are supposed to create teams based on more factors than pure iLvL. It means they can, and should with time and population, mix exped PvPers and PUGs. How does it compare to a system where PvPers can all gang up in one team, leaving all the pugs, or most pugs, in the other? You don't need a 5M premade. 2,3,4,5 men premades gradually break the balance of a match. We see it comparing solo Q and the current duo Q. The duo option is already enough to make people notice a change.
We are defending solo Q because some PvPers posted against it or to say it's useless, which is untrue. I also posted because i don't really get bad jokes about pugstomping when i know that pugstomping from PvP guilds damaged PvP a lot.
You say PMvsPM is the only true PvP. I disagree for a simple reason. In a PMvsPM match you have no variables and you have a predetermined scheme/strategies to follow, and team mates that already know what to do. Basically, it's PvP with less variables. In soloQ you must learn how to come up with new strategies based on your team. It happened to me in a match a couple of days ago in duo!. My team was losing. Then taking a look at the battlefield and giving tips to my team, the match reverted. I did it during NCL a lot and it's the reason why i played over 200 games with soloQ, using Plague and soulforged vs T.Fey-Neg users, and still ranked in the top 40. Because i have seen many "experienced PvPers" used to PMvsPM matches just give up and rage out without even trying. No ability to overcome the difficulties of a random match. I could fight and look at the battlefield and tell my team mates where to go and how to rotate.
So i'd say that a pure solo Q requires a lot of different PvP skills too, included the ability not just to fight, but to also read the battlefield in real time. Another big difference is this:
- In mixed queue 9/10 it's a gg in the first 30 seconds because one team is a premade/ half premade of geared players. - In solo queue even if you lose, 9/10 you can fight, kill some and cap on your own without begging for 600 points.
It might look like a little difference for players who only care about winning, but it's a big difference for players who want to have fun in PvP. The ability to fight and kill vs a match where you only get killed and then ask if, please, you can cap some.
ELO was introduced when PvP population was already too low. To make it work a little now, you need to play in soloQ. It's the easiest way to bring back people to PvP. Then you can add the changes suggested in the other topic by ayroux.
I have yet to read a conclusive explanation how premades are the better option in a single player ranking system. It's like the ATP creating their single player rating from double matches. Anyone who doesn't get that obviously has other interests than a meaningful ranking.
I also don't think premade matches are the holy grail of PVP. People need to realize it's just another type of gameplay. In a solo Q the team with the better solo players will win. These players are able to quickly react to different team compositions and fill the tasks needed in specific scenarios on the battlefield. Losing means the opposing team was able to better handle the situation and more effectively come up for less geared or less experienced players. It has nothing to do with randomness or missing learning curves. Solo queuers do learn, but only within their needs. Going back to my ATP example a single player champion can very well suck in a double or mixed format. Does it make them worse overall tennis players? I don't think so.
Telling players they need to do premades to experience true PVP and learn is just not true. Player participating in premades learn the premade format. On top of the solo queue there should be a 5v5 premade queue with a team ranking.
I fully recognize there are players who will enjoy solo Q PVP. I've stated as much.
Some players will tell themselves it was skill when they won against the other team. They will clap themselves on the back for a well deserved win when their 2 HR 2DC GF comp won against some SWs CWs and a GWF. They'll tell each other gg as they beat a team where the DC is healing from the pillar.
They will tell themselves they overcame adversity through skill and clever rotation. They will think how much better this is than fighting premades and getting stomped, the latter is the only truth to this tale.
What it will actually be is PVP FFA. The team with the most OP comp/players will win. The difference being that you got a BIS HR or GF or some such on your team that slaughtered the other team.
Now to address the "single player ranking system". The fact that the ranking system is even brought up as an argument for solo Q speaks volumes about the mindset going into this. If leaderboard ranks are something you consider as a legitimate sign of someone's skill in PVP we need have no more discussion.
So while you may believe that solo Qers must "react quickly" to adjust for a dynamic and bracing round of solo Q PVP, I'll just smh and remember the good old days when players aspired to be the best team instead of being self congratulatory about defeating a team of pillar hopping, bridge camping, node avoiding pugs.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
I fully recognize there are players who will enjoy solo Q PVP. I've stated as much.
Some players will tell themselves it was skill when they won against the other team. They will clap themselves on the back for a well deserved win when their 2 HR 2DC GF comp won against some SWs CWs and a GWF. They'll tell each other gg as they beat a team where the DC is healing from the pillar.
They will tell themselves they overcame adversity through skill and clever rotation. They will think how much better this is than fighting premades and getting stomped, the latter is the only truth to this tale.
What it will actually be is PVP FFA. The team with the most OP comp/players will win. The difference being that you got a BIS HR or GF or some such on your team that slaughtered the other team.
Now to address the "single player ranking system". The fact that the ranking system is even brought up as an argument for solo Q speaks volumes about the mindset going into this. If leaderboard ranks are something you consider as a legitimate sign of someone's skill in PVP we need have no more discussion.
So while you may believe that solo Qers must "react quickly" to adjust for a dynamic and bracing round of solo Q PVP, I'll just smh and remember the good old days when players aspired to be the best team instead of being self congratulatory about defeating a team of pillar hopping, bridge camping, node avoiding pugs.
Do Synergy pre-mades clap themselves on the back for their good comp and 3.6k all-around when defeating a 5 man pug team? Was that really skill? Was Teamspeak working well for you in that match? How nice.
In a prior post you said PUGs come and go. I've been playing the game over 2 years, and PVP since Mod 6. I think Pando has been around longer. Many of the posters here are matured PVP players with decent IL. You are just generalizing and name-calling now.
@santralafax I never said pugs come and go. You're confusing me with Metalldj I believe. I also don't clap myself on the back for anything besides beating another premade with a rainbow comp premade of our own.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Duo que has become a game of kick til get the party you want. It was very frustrating last night played 6 matches could not fight 3 of the 6 due to vote kick blowing up in my face saying unskilled player as reason. (Actually said pug trash) I was kicked from 2 matches was told reason was I refused to kick pugs. Thing was the 2 matches I was kicked from were winnable and we were winning. In 2 of the other matches I watched players change several times on opposing teams. 1 match was very even score was 600 to 597 when 2 Bis hit other team from vote kicking match went 690 to 1000 with a loss after that last match was 4k 3.5k 2.6k 2.3 k 4.7k vs 4.2k 3.1k 3.5k 2k 2.7k match went 1000 to 925 was no kicks and was great match. but 1 out of 6 with out kicking going on means vote kick needs to be fixed so once score reaches certain point no kicking and kicking should be auto for players who sit on camp fire more than 45 seconds my 5th match 1 team mate never left fire due to was against his fellow guild and asked to be kicked
Fixing Vote kick would go a long way to helping out in PVP balance
you obviously neglect the existence of Pug stomping premades,
(this is from my PoV) He is not denying it, what he is saying is, in fact, due the fact that those "pug stompers" some players were driven away from PvP BUT, at the same time, some PvE players and PvP players, ofc, will not learn a thing about their own classes at minimun because, usually, those players think that doing QER (+ tab on CW's players) should grant them a "kill" for good/sure and, if they don't get the kill while doing that, then, "PvP is broken", "copped by exploiters/P2W/trollscomps/etc" .
90% of PVP community left since mod 4, in those days back you could watch so many premades in GG and DOM, they did not think about the boomerang effect of their behaviour. About skill and NWO ? ... I think I met lot´s of skilled player but it´s hard to see the difference between skill and gear in this game beside the fact you run the fotm class. I think a PVP focussed player would laugh about this PVP (and maybe also about some self declared PVP pro´s) If you really want to focus on PVP this is not the game to chose imho.
@schietindebux - "If I only think about those guys , who even did not get enough kills in 70 PVP, they just transfered their enchants and rank 10-12 to low level chars to destroy every slightest chance for fresh blood in NWO PVP"
Tho, that's just with some basic rank 5-7s.
nice... You detroyed the upcoming brood for lev 70 PVP I am sure some of those guys never thought about getting into PVP, but it´s not benefitial to contest as a veteran against beginners at low level PVP. NWO PVP = wild west Again, I don´t care about it, I only argue about the effect and the consequences.
The days of premade PVP might be gone anyway. The population is slim and to be honest, the system didn't prevail. Under the premade reign PVP crumbled. It's unfair to put all the blame on that, but the overall attitude within top tier PVP has certainly contributed to the development. If you lose, try harder, join a PVP guild, premade yourself. All good, except that trying to oppress a certain way to play the game does not solve anything. That's why the devs try something else with the solo queue. I would accept the opinion that premade PVP is the real deal, but not agree. For me it's still apples and oranges.
And then you also always have those people that just try to defend their status quo and hide behind their precious premades. Look at @metalldjt. He or she is constantly trying to lobby for a combined duo and solo queue for no logical reason. It doesn't make sense, so people of course think premading at least partially serves the purpose of getting easier wins.
in those days back you could watch so many premades in GG and DOM,
Sorry, but this is wrong: PvP players left PvP, Dom and GG for 6 reasons:
- Perma freezer and killers CWs thanks to Assiliant + Storm Spell + Ray of Frost. - Immortal and melters combat HRs. - GWF's Intimidation build. - Immortal DCs. - TRs' DF + pre nerf glyphs. EDIT, because i almost forgot about them: GF's Reflect build.
If you think that this has something to do with "premades", sorry to tell you that you're wrong.
Think about meeting all those guys in one team, that would be fun but hardly possible...at least a short answer and no monologue, hard to take thx I am sure there are 100 reaons more to find What did you post some pages ago, BIS in 2 month? How long do you take part in this circus..and are you BIS at least? Everyone is cooking his own personal "truth" about PVP, dream on
It's funny to see that when there are no arguments to reply, they ignore what people write. Nothing more to say by me. Have fun Tyrion, i'll stop discussing from now on. Just, what you wrote about me is so ridiculous i must admit i was a bit surprised. Weird reaction by your side, with no arguments and just personal attacks.
I'm sure your ideas guys will revive PvP. I see how PvP is after being basically in your hands/ feedbacks for the past 3 years. You were the elite who ruled PvP for the past 3 years and look now! It's so healthy.
Keep ignoring what players tell to you and good luck.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Closed because the event is over (for now) and there's a massive amount of flaming in the last few pages (which I will leave her just as transparency to show why the thread needed closing).
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Comments
Cryptic has intentionally set up a system that spoofs any competitive intelligent player no matter if they are playing a BIS toon or a lowly geared toon. They haven´t even given a private q without rewards to BIS players to set up nice matches or tournaments although it would have taken literally next to no effort to implement this. Think about why not. It´s not rocket science...the system they have set up (yes, everything was better in the beginning, when this strategy hadn´t blossomed to full effect yet...unfortunately I wasn´t around back then) does NOT appeal to players´ intelligence, competitiveness etc....it rather caters to the far less than noble instincts. You spend time and/or money you get to be an elephant stomping ants. Admittedly (and unfortunately) this must work to some degree in terms of creating revenue for the company. But it is nevertheless a system that will hit a wall at some point because players´ stupidity and willingness to endure nonsense isn´t infinite. That point may be now? So the way I see it - setting up a solo q without any other improvements will only serve to extend the sickness a while longer before final demise. It´s not a cure and it won´t make me go for PVP even though I´m very bored with PVE.
So while I can understand vinceent1´s feeling of having very low expectations at this point...I would advocate for not letting cryptic get away with something as lame and ultimately also unhelpful as solo q. Rather tell them to stop insulting players finally...because that is what such a game design is....an INSULT to any decently intelligent player. They CAN make money without doing this....
So...there´s a ton of suggestions on this forum on how to actually improve the situation...and my guess is that this games´ employees are perfectly capable (theoretically) of coming up with even more because they work on this game every day and (most likely) have studied their craft at some university. So it boils down to a very basic game design decision...go on prolonging the nonsense and milking the sick cow to the bitter end...or make a U-turn and set up something better. Permanent solo q would fall in the former category. Not sure if it´ll make a big difference but it also most definitely will not hurt if players rally and agree on demanding more than that.
And since I can understand tolkienbuffs reasoning I think it would be most profitable to come up with a very neat design for premade q. Even thinking about this for 5 minutes my head is brimming with ideas for this...and I guess it would be unreasonable to suspect this games´ designers are uncreative oafs who do not feel the same way. BUT -again- it all boils down a very basic game design decision...the question of whether they are- at this point- willing to make a 180° turn on their design so far...if they go on "rewarding" players for their time and/or money spent by letting them be little terminators (in both PVE and PVP by the way)...then there is no reason to expect good game design and fun in the future of this game.
1. i was and i will heavily support any premade lobby or smaller gear gap systems anyone (include metaldjt and tolkienbuff) suggest. i always do and you know it
2. solo que is only feature cryptic is willing to talk to us at the moment, so its worth spread loud word "Yes we really want this asap" its one step into right direction
thanks for your time
PVP guilds are terrible, PVP guilds Killed PVP, PVP guilds exploit, PVP guilds are responsible for the downfall of the game.
Essentially PVP guilds are the illuminati hellbent on wrecking everything good about Neverwinter ... we get it.
I will no longer respond to you because your tin foil hat conspiracy theories and your flagrant misuse and overuse of the term "exploit". You are the very definition of an angry player with an agenda who's bias fuels every salt laden, vitriolic word you proliferate in your novel of hate.
You ask anyone with gear and experience to forfeit their gear, forfeit playing with friends, and forfeit the right to Q for PVP so that you can enjoy the way you play at their expense, all the while blinded by your bias to the fact you are being hypocritical.
Some people can have intelligent discourse and see both sides of an issue... you are not one of them my friend. So, fire away with your jealousy, your impudent rage, and your one sided views. You have proven you are not looking for compromise you're just angry that you can't have everything your way, so you're going to take your ball and go home.
If i delete all those past years of PVP from my hard drive disk and ignore the fact , that a huge majority of PVP guildies ganged up and stomped GG , DOM and every little part oft NWO PVP excessively, I might get to your conclusions .....but you are wrong in most aspects, since you only know NWO PVP from above the pyramid, judging about bad performing pugs who never learn, and maybe you only know your guild or some of your guildies, some are honest, but some are toxic, same with "pugs"
If I only think about those guys , who even did not get enough kills in 70 PVP, they just transfered their enchants and rank 10-12 to low level chars to destroy every slightest chance for fresh blood in NWO PVP
Absurd, but definitely not done by pugs
A solo queue will not solve every problem but it is a start to get more player into PVP and to prefevent some player from getting selfdestrucitve, killing most fun by running 24/7 premade vs pug
PVP is at the bottom and a lot of player suffer from collective amnesia about "how did we get there"
I didn't wrote it's "all fault of PvP guilds" and that all PvP guilds are bad. I wrote that "cryptic gave you the gun, but it's you who used it". It's 50/50. But you can't deny that the past (and partially present) behaviour of most PvP guilds, if not all, contributed to drive players away.
Is it too much to say that PvP guilds could refrain from using T.Fey-T.Neg combo when they knew it was out of reach for 99% of the players and clearly breaking any competition in PvP?
Is it too much to say that PvP guilds could at least refrain from farming GG with full premades, or farming domination, and try to at least sync premades?
Is it too much to say that broken builds were always discovered and, sorry, exploited, by PvP guilds before they spread to the whole population? While it would have been wiser to just report those builds and DO NOT USE THEM AT ALL OR SPREAD THEM.
Also: i simply wrote that it's needed a solo queue along with the mixed queue so that you can play with your friend and solo queue players don't have to be farmed by PvP guilds premades. Oh my god!! What an unreasonable request.
With your last post tyrion you just brought no arguments against what i wrote. It's just a personal attack with a poor attempt to twist what i wrote. My posts are above and sorry but it's nothing like what you wrote.
I've never been against PvP guilds and i have also many friends in yours and other guilds and i know they are good people. But i have also been playing long enough to know how things went in the past, so i can say today that PvP dying is 50% devs fault, and 50% PvP guilds fault.
Your personal attack on me is not needed and, sorry, 100% out of target. Sorry if my words hurt you but i think that deep inside you know they are true, or you wouldn't reply with such a post, but you would bring true arguments they way you usually do.
I was not BIS till the end of mod 3. I continued to play non BIS alts thereafter. I now have one of each class pretty close to BIS. However I sometimes Q on my highly undergeared alts to get a perspective.
I am 100% right that a large majority of pugs never have, and never will learn to PVP effectively. This is true for a number of reasons.
The first being that if you optimize for PVP then your build is suboptimal for PVE. This you must choose. Pugs either don't know how to or wouldnt opt to spec for PVP as it takes up a minority of their priorities.
The second being if you're a pug, you'll never learn proper rotation, you have to guess where to be, if you're not particularly bright you wind up on pillars or bridges with no peers to tell you that it is poor strategy.
The third being that you likely don't even know what gear to get or have access to it, thus you become a liability and likely won't learn to play your class in PVP as you die too quickly.
I could go on and on sir. Please, don't just assume I have blinders on because I'm BIS. It's simply not true. I also rarely join a full 5 person PM. These are all assumptions that I hear frequently and they are incorrect.
For some reason I get the feeling you guys are defending the Solo Q as though I'm attacking the idea. I have already said in multiple threads that I have no problem with it. I'm not sure why you feel the need to reiterate the urgent need for a solo Q. I've already said it gives any player an RNG chance at a win.
The win or the loss doesn't reflect better PVP however, just a less predictable outcome of which team gets roflstomped. Solo Q does not allow players to improve, it just allows them the opportunity to luck into the better team more often. For that reason pugs will perceive it as a superior Q system, and that's fine with me. Ignorance is bliss, when RNG is on your side.
Things went slightly better the last mods, but only due to 1. maybe the fact some player grew up and 2. some toxic player left.
ELO system and matchmaking are supposed to create teams based on more factors than pure iLvL. It means they can, and should with time and population, mix exped PvPers and PUGs. How does it compare to a system where PvPers can all gang up in one team, leaving all the pugs, or most pugs, in the other?
You don't need a 5M premade. 2,3,4,5 men premades gradually break the balance of a match. We see it comparing solo Q and the current duo Q. The duo option is already enough to make people notice a change.
We are defending solo Q because some PvPers posted against it or to say it's useless, which is untrue. I also posted because i don't really get bad jokes about pugstomping when i know that pugstomping from PvP guilds damaged PvP a lot.
You say PMvsPM is the only true PvP. I disagree for a simple reason. In a PMvsPM match you have no variables and you have a predetermined scheme/strategies to follow, and team mates that already know what to do. Basically, it's PvP with less variables. In soloQ you must learn how to come up with new strategies based on your team. It happened to me in a match a couple of days ago in duo!. My team was losing. Then taking a look at the battlefield and giving tips to my team, the match reverted. I did it during NCL a lot and it's the reason why i played over 200 games with soloQ, using Plague and soulforged vs T.Fey-Neg users, and still ranked in the top 40. Because i have seen many "experienced PvPers" used to PMvsPM matches just give up and rage out without even trying. No ability to overcome the difficulties of a random match. I could fight and look at the battlefield and tell my team mates where to go and how to rotate.
So i'd say that a pure solo Q requires a lot of different PvP skills too, included the ability not just to fight, but to also read the battlefield in real time.
Another big difference is this:
- In mixed queue 9/10 it's a gg in the first 30 seconds because one team is a premade/ half premade of geared players.
- In solo queue even if you lose, 9/10 you can fight, kill some and cap on your own without begging for 600 points.
It might look like a little difference for players who only care about winning, but it's a big difference for players who want to have fun in PvP. The ability to fight and kill vs a match where you only get killed and then ask if, please, you can cap some.
ELO was introduced when PvP population was already too low. To make it work a little now, you need to play in soloQ. It's the easiest way to bring back people to PvP. Then you can add the changes suggested in the other topic by ayroux.
I also don't think premade matches are the holy grail of PVP. People need to realize it's just another type of gameplay. In a solo Q the team with the better solo players will win. These players are able to quickly react to different team compositions and fill the tasks needed in specific scenarios on the battlefield. Losing means the opposing team was able to better handle the situation and more effectively come up for less geared or less experienced players. It has nothing to do with randomness or missing learning curves. Solo queuers do learn, but only within their needs. Going back to my ATP example a single player champion can very well suck in a double or mixed format. Does it make them worse overall tennis players? I don't think so.
Telling players they need to do premades to experience true PVP and learn is just not true. Player participating in premades learn the premade format. On top of the solo queue there should be a 5v5 premade queue with a team ranking.
Some players will tell themselves it was skill when they won against the other team. They will clap themselves on the back for a well deserved win when their 2 HR 2DC GF comp won against some SWs CWs and a GWF. They'll tell each other gg as they beat a team where the DC is healing from the pillar.
They will tell themselves they overcame adversity through skill and clever rotation. They will think how much better this is than fighting premades and getting stomped, the latter is the only truth to this tale.
What it will actually be is PVP FFA. The team with the most OP comp/players will win. The difference being that you got a BIS HR or GF or some such on your team that slaughtered the other team.
Now to address the "single player ranking system". The fact that the ranking system is even brought up as an argument for solo Q speaks volumes about the mindset going into this. If leaderboard ranks are something you consider as a legitimate sign of someone's skill in PVP we need have no more discussion.
So while you may believe that solo Qers must "react quickly" to adjust for a dynamic and bracing round of solo Q PVP, I'll just smh and remember the good old days when players aspired to be the best team instead of being self congratulatory about defeating a team of pillar hopping, bridge camping, node avoiding pugs.
In a prior post you said PUGs come and go. I've been playing the game over 2 years, and PVP since Mod 6. I think Pando has been around longer. Many of the posters here are matured PVP players with decent IL. You are just generalizing and name-calling now.
Fixing Vote kick would go a long way to helping out in PVP balance
About skill and NWO ? ... I think I met lot´s of skilled player but it´s hard to see the difference between skill and gear in this game beside the fact you run the fotm class.
I think a PVP focussed player would laugh about this PVP (and maybe also about some self declared PVP pro´s)
If you really want to focus on PVP this is not the game to chose imho.
I am sure some of those guys never thought about getting into PVP, but it´s not benefitial to contest as a veteran against beginners at low level PVP.
NWO PVP = wild west
Again, I don´t care about it, I only argue about the effect and the consequences.
And then you also always have those people that just try to defend their status quo and hide behind their precious premades. Look at @metalldjt. He or she is constantly trying to lobby for a combined duo and solo queue for no logical reason. It doesn't make sense, so people of course think premading at least partially serves the purpose of getting easier wins.
What did you post some pages ago, BIS in 2 month?
How long do you take part in this circus..and are you BIS at least?
Everyone is cooking his own personal "truth" about PVP, dream on
I'm sure your ideas guys will revive PvP. I see how PvP is after being basically in your hands/ feedbacks for the past 3 years. You were the elite who ruled PvP for the past 3 years and look now! It's so healthy.
Keep ignoring what players tell to you and good luck.
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