Again, address the true power creep behind the scenes.
1) Lostmauth's Set 2) Bonding Runestones 3) AP Gain
All of these add SUBSTANTIAL power to the parties that have them, with little to no effect on the item level of the character. These are the most insidious parts of the "power creep".
We've started doing "naked runs" in the "leveling dungeons".. the only thing allowed are level-appropriate main-and off-hand weapons/shields. Because my GWF is pretty much fully-booned (missing the last two from ToD and all but one of Mod 9 boons), I've opted for level 11 MH/OH. But the "rules" of the game do allow for higher-level weapons.
So, no Lostmauth set. No artifacts. No enchantments. No AP gain. Minimal Bonding runestones. We're still mowing through the 3-man dungeons. Okay, so Karrundax took a little while to bring down, but whatever. It's not like we were taking any damage. While naked.
This leads me to believe that the "power creep" is in with boons. We get a new set of them with every mod. That +400 here and +400 there, not to mention the SH boons, really add up.
Regardless.. at least the devs have addressed the XP gap issue for the 60-70 crowd. And despite people whining about the fact that EVERYONE should have access to EVERYTHING... that makes no sense. You don't hear level 20 characters crying because they can't beat Tiamat. There needs to be something to work for, to work towards..
There have been a zillion great ideas shared with the devs on how to deal with the power creep, but they're gonna stick to their game plan and continue to churn out whatever the HAMSTER they want... even if it's shooting themselves in their collective foot.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
as for a challenge i really like the pug, the terriblier they are the more challenging exciting run (to a some degree) i have. of course it dont work for all. elol is full of newbies, i feel really good for helping them
PUG runs are always full of surprises. Sometimes I gleefully find I am in a party with like-geared and we burn the house down--sometimes I am carrying newbies, sometimes I find the synergies just aren't there with party make-up and the final boss can't be taken.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
Why create content that only a few can enjoy? In mod 2 there was a dungeon called CN. Also VT was quite challenging, so was Dwarf King. Yes, there were only a few players, who could do these.
However, all of the other players were aiming to build a good character, so they could go to these dungeons. People were theorycrafting, even struggling sometimes to overcome these dungeons. If you could do CN, you could call yourself a good player. (or at least a good cw anyway). You could'nt carry bad players through CN.
And here it starts already... Just discussing to change the Losmauth set or the bonding exploit gets people angry and crying for higer rewards or "compensation". This is the reason nothing will ever change. The community of this game is a wild beast that will snap at you at the slightest movement...
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
well starting out and calling exploit doesnt help.
btw.. Im a proponent of changing bonding stones to 3 only stack and longer duration .
Im not in favor of adjusting lost-mouth, unless THEY also adjust certain class structures at the same time, which I would be 100% ok with if they brought back CW spellstorm. (way overnerfed that class and only reason poeple dont see it is due to losty)
Either that or give back slightly more dps.. but also bring back system wide sing.. meatball and old encounter dps back to ss and the like before the nerfed the heck out of those things.
Im ok with adjustments.. im not ok with them ripping away 30%+ of CW dps just to fix GWF (the only class that actually that is way over performing at the base level with the set. )
The other classes get between 5-15% give or take with the dps..
So its WAY over simplifying the process saying just "nerf" it.. most classes dont see nearly the amount of dps as the top 2. A direct nerf , what does that do to trs, hrs? go from 5% dps boost to 2.5%? you see how ridiculous that is? This is why just "nerf" it crowd has way over simplified the issue.
Again.. I have no issues.. zero with them adjusting either the set or the classes, as long as they DO a followup and fix the CW class when they went bozonkers on the class when they shouldnt have.
In all direct correlation with the above.. I ONCE again would like to point out how ridiculous the actual loot and reward system in this game is.. with the need to run thousands and thousand sand thousands of dungeons to gear and play your toons.
THOUSANDs.. IE.. Ive run maybe 5-6k elols now.. 1k vts and a host of other mutliple edemos, tiamats, heralds, hundreds and hundreds of HEs in IWD when they actually rewarded you something..
WITH all of this .. ALL the above.. I barely feel like im advancing toons month to month.
making a dungeon go from 7 mins to 14 mins.. just to tune down the lostmout set.. is not ok.. unless they amp up rewards.. doubling the time for the same amount of AD..?
Ive never ground a mmo so hard in my life!
casual my foot.. it maybe the less casual friendly game Ive ever played.. not in terms of difficulty but of time.
Casual players.. just want to play a few hours a week .. that has nothing to do with the discussion on hand.. casual players dont even care about getting past 2k .. and they follow some random dudes internet guide that rhymes with marko..
then maybe if they get serious.. they actually fix stuff and start running thousands and thousands of dds.
Short answer to OP: Yes, there's no carrot of going to high K other than speed (no content) and social pressure (GS babbies, and I-level restrictions), and the stick (grind/money/boredom/luck factor) is relatively too big thus the accessibility problem to get enough people to play High-K to make content for it. (Playing a self-sufficient character w/o Astral Diamonds and Auction House might help amplify the accessibility for you )
Edit: FWIW The walls/problems have gotten a lot better over the years
And here it starts already... Just discussing to change the Losmauth set or the bonding exploit gets people angry and crying for higer rewards or "compensation". This is the reason nothing will ever change. The community of this game is a wild beast that will snap at you at the slightest movement...
(Intentionally hostile)
So yeh there you got your problem guys. Are you the best elite players up for a 'real challenge' or are you wallet warrior babbies who've bought/exploited/scammed your way into power and just want to burn through things for max rewards and complain that your bored.
(/hostile)
The original post spoke of learning to play and training new players, but 90% of the "tips" I see now are go to the Auction house and buy yourself XYZ and right into boredom, and that's even on the channel that plays with all levels. Added to that the number of people who flip out when runs aren't perfect-gold, or refuse to party with low-k cause they might not go as fast. The 2nd group seems larger to me, so you got a fight on your hands .. that is if there are enough skilled players left (first I've heard of naked runs in years). Players are addicted to AH/CS and power, and Cryptic loves it!
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
5. Q: Next thing we want to talk about is Divine Protector.
A: I'm not sure how much I can speak for the general opinion on it, but there is clearly a problem with it. It can make people invulerable when used in the right way. That's not a type of gameplay we intend to have out there. That being said, if we just flat out fix it, we also break meta. We break how certain builds work, and how the game is played. So we have to be careful about how we fix that, so we aren't making content impossible for some people because that was the only way to succeed.
That is not a type of gameplay we intend to have out there. And then says so we arent making content impossible for some poeple because that was the only way to succeed.
CAlling poeple idiots those lines or is my idea? IF Only way to succeed is the divine protector then we will never have challenge.
There is no endcontent for a "permabubbladin" Since cryptic doesn´t care about this issue, endcontent will be solvable for every group where a "Bubbladin" runs ahead .... you can run your char naked with mainhand doing so. I am pretty sure lot´s of groups, myself included running undergeared CN, will struggle in case this issue would be solved.
There is no endcontent for a "permabubbladin" Since cryptic doesn´t care about this issue, endcontent will be solvable for every group where a "Bubbladin" runs ahead .... you can run your char naked with mainhand doing so. I am pretty sure lot´s of groups, myself included running undergeared CN, will struggle in case this issue would be solved.
The hardest dungeon that went live, was VT. And that wasn't really a gear check.
We didnt have overpowered items back then, but it took about a week before people started clearing it because it required TEAMWORK.
I remember the first ever clears of that dungeon were people who brute forced it with 5 dps or something like that, which were a clusterf*ck. Until some coordinated groups actually allocated sections of the room to teammates to activate, that was fun and interesting.
I'm all for more bosses with mechanics that require coordination rather than iLevel, which is basically what every dungeon right now is all about. But I wager the large majority do not want to sit outside a boss encounter discussing tactics.
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited March 2016
today we had a funny run in ecc. we had gf-op-dc righteous- gwf top gwf decent gear. WE didnt use valor or divine protector. Paladin just came to give aura of courage and bane on bosses he was eating while we were doing the run haha. ecc in 13m with 0 deaths and not barrel use for speedkill. so devs saying about divine protector afraid to imidiatelly fix it is invalid. op has the aura of courage and if problems around can use also and the aura of protection. shield of faith is also good daily. TO paladins: you have important auras i dont want you to make me immune to damage you are nice class and without divine protector. LETS stack buffs yea:)
lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
Agree
More difficult content please. Running through everything in easy mode is boring. And if a few ppl QQ and leave the game, maybe the rest of us will be better off for it.
I didn't QQ about the fact that I was geared enough to run the tiamat raid until nearly two mods later, suck it up and work towards a goal guys (and girls).
More difficult content please. Running through everything in easy mode is boring. And if a few ppl QQ and leave the game, maybe the rest of us will be better off for it.
I didn't QQ about the fact that I was geared enough to run the tiamat raid until nearly two mods later, suck it up and work towards a goal guys (and girls).
L
And if noone is left to pay for the damn game, you won't be able to play either. Anyone of you ever think about why game companies target casual gamers? The "hardcore" is not enough to finance a game. Look how wildstar failed. Most gamers these days don't have time to play 24/7, they wanna play a few hours a week as recreation.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
More difficult content please. Running through everything in easy mode is boring. And if a few ppl QQ and leave the game, maybe the rest of us will be better off for it.
I didn't QQ about the fact that I was geared enough to run the tiamat raid until nearly two mods later, suck it up and work towards a goal guys (and girls).
L
And if noone is left to pay for the damn game, you won't be able to play either. Anyone of you ever think about why game companies target casual gamers? The "hardcore" is not enough to finance a game. Look how wildstar failed. Most gamers these days don't have time to play 24/7, they wanna play a few hours a week as recreation.
lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
And if the game is just plain boring cause its no challenge, what's the point in having other ppl to play with if you don't want to play anyway?
Why does creating some challenging end game content mean there is nothing for low geared toons? As far as I can see, the whole game is aimed at easy peasy mode, a new player has countless options. Why cant well geared ppl who want a challenge get at least a tiny amount of content for them with each mod? If they put in a new dungeon, put in a normal version and an epic version that's hard, really hard.
Everyone complained about Mod 6 (which personally I liked) because they upped the difficulty of existing stuff that they had already done. I doubt there would be the same complaints and player exits if Mod 10 kept the current content as is and added new IL 3K or 3.5K+ areas.
Why create new shiny better weapons, armour, enchants, mounts etc. if the content stays the same difficulty? What's the point in upgrading if you don't need it to do the content (other then having an epeen contest with other players).
When ppl are soloing the hardest Dungeon in the game a week or so after it came out, something is wrong.
I am far from hardcore, other than an epic mount, a few character slots and a respect or two, I'm a f2p player with modest gear (two toons 3.1K), I play around 1 hour per day. I would say I am very much an average (median) player that's been around a while.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Short answer to OP: Yes, there's no carrot of going to high K other than speed (no content) and social pressure (GS babbies, and I-level restrictions), and the stick (grind/money/boredom/luck factor) is relatively too big thus the accessibility problem to get enough people to play High-K to make content for it. (Playing a self-sufficient character w/o Astral Diamonds and Auction House might help amplify the accessibility for you )
Edit: FWIW The walls/problems have gotten a lot better over the years
And here it starts already... Just discussing to change the Losmauth set or the bonding exploit gets people angry and crying for higer rewards or "compensation". This is the reason nothing will ever change. The community of this game is a wild beast that will snap at you at the slightest movement...
(Intentionally hostile)
So yeh there you got your problem guys. Are you the best elite players up for a 'real challenge' or are you wallet warrior babbies who've bought/exploited/scammed your way into power and just want to burn through things for max rewards and complain that your bored.
(/hostile)
The original post spoke of learning to play and training new players, but 90% of the "tips" I see now are go to the Auction house and buy yourself XYZ and right into boredom, and that's even on the channel that plays with all levels. Added to that the number of people who flip out when runs aren't perfect-gold, or refuse to party with low-k cause they might not go as fast. The 2nd group seems larger to me, so you got a fight on your hands .. that is if there are enough skilled players left (first I've heard of naked runs in years). Players are addicted to AH/CS and power, and Cryptic loves it!
That game is "hardcore" because it's leveling system is like reading a map without text labels and trying to find your way in a foreign city to the next bathroom. Take that away, and it's just a lower-quality D3 knockoff. Easy to screw up your character doesn't mean challenging. Besides how would something like that even work with retraining tokens at the current price?
More difficult content please. Running through everything in easy mode is boring. And if a few ppl QQ and leave the game, maybe the rest of us will be better off for it.
I didn't QQ about the fact that I was geared enough to run the tiamat raid until nearly two mods later, suck it up and work towards a goal guys (and girls).
L
And if noone is left to pay for the damn game, you won't be able to play either. Anyone of you ever think about why game companies target casual gamers? The "hardcore" is not enough to finance a game. Look how wildstar failed. Most gamers these days don't have time to play 24/7, they wanna play a few hours a week as recreation.
Path of exile is f2p financed off hardcore.
PtE marketed itself towards that sort of playerbase before the game even hit beta. Neverwinter can't suddenly do a 180 and aim for a completely different type of player without consequences.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I think what's coming out here is the real answer to the question.
People ask for harder content. Then immediately refuse to accept any challenge unless they get rewards they perceive as equal to the challenge. Which, in order to meet this standard, would further exasperate the gear gap, and we're back in the same situation.
I'd honestly prefer they just offer "hardcore" achievements that reward unique titles, cosmetic items or even mount skins (now that it's a thing), instead of more powerful gear.
For example, "The End of Days" - Defeat all the challenges in CN without casting a daily spell. Or "Sheer Force of Will" - Defeat Demogorgon by only casting at-wills. "Out of the Friend Zone" - Finish eGWD, eCC and eToS without summoning a companion. And of course, to qualify it means your entire group needs to avoid dailies, at wills or companions...no cheeseballing here.
I think what's coming out here is the real answer to the question.
People ask for harder content. Then immediately refuse to accept any challenge unless they get rewards they perceive as equal to the challenge. Which, in order to meet this standard, would further exasperate the gear gap, and we're back in the same situation.
I don't think that's really true. Castle Never is marginally harder than other T2s and has much better rewards. Part of that was dropping rank 8s in dungeons. This didn't increase the gear gap; it decreased it by making the price of rank 8s drop to half of what they were on some enchants. Similarly the new RP only drops from CN but a shatter longsword is going for 2k. Even with the all the cheap peridots/lesser stones you're paying ~.73 AD per RP point which would put the longsword at around 4300.
I mean I hate to bring up the idea of trickle down economics but it's actually working here.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I think what's coming out here is the real answer to the question.
People ask for harder content. Then immediately refuse to accept any challenge unless they get rewards they perceive as equal to the challenge. Which, in order to meet this standard, would further exasperate the gear gap, and we're back in the same situation.
I'd honestly prefer they just offer "hardcore" achievements that reward unique titles, cosmetic items or even mount skins (now that it's a thing), instead of more powerful gear.
For example, "The End of Days" - Defeat all the challenges in CN without casting a daily spell. Or "Sheer Force of Will" - Defeat Demogorgon by only casting at-wills. "Out of the Friend Zone" - Finish eGWD, eCC and eToS without summoning a companion. And of course, to qualify it means your entire group needs to avoid dailies, at wills or companions...no cheeseballing here.
Those are things I'd like to see added.
I have always wanted a PVE ladder, although I don't know how hard it would be to implement, where at the start of each dungeon run the game started a timer and your times for dungeon completion were recorded after each win, then at the end of the month, the top teams of 5 each got some cosmetic or something. You could have brackets for fastest boss kill, fastest dungeon clear etc for each and every dungeon and achievements associated with them.
It is either a case of add good loot to dungeons and have them be challenging, or adding an element of contest, either would do fine.
5. Q: Next thing we want to talk about is Divine Protector.
A: I'm not sure how much I can speak for the general opinion on it, but there is clearly a problem with it. It can make people invulerable when used in the right way. That's not a type of gameplay we intend to have out there. That being said, if we just flat out fix it, we also break meta. We break how certain builds work, and how the game is played. So we have to be careful about how we fix that, so we aren't making content impossible for some people because that was the only way to succeed.
That is not a type of gameplay we intend to have out there. And then says so we arent making content impossible for some poeple because that was the only way to succeed.
CAlling poeple idiots those lines or is my idea? IF Only way to succeed is the divine protector then we will never have challenge.
The problem is that Divine Protector has already broken meta, it has ruined other class builds and made some stats pointless. So if one is now at triage situation and one has to pick which class must suffer, then Cryptic must very clearly state this. I am thinking they should at the character selection screen warn users that picking X class is preferred over class Y.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I think what's coming out here is the real answer to the question.
People ask for harder content. Then immediately refuse to accept any challenge unless they get rewards they perceive as equal to the challenge. Which, in order to meet this standard, would further exasperate the gear gap, and we're back in the same situation.
I don't think that's really true. Castle Never is marginally harder than other T2s and has much better rewards. Part of that was dropping rank 8s in dungeons. This didn't increase the gear gap; it decreased it by making the price of rank 8s drop to half of what they were on some enchants. Similarly the new RP only drops from CN but a shatter longsword is going for 2k. Even with the all the cheap peridots/lesser stones you're paying ~.73 AD per RP point which would put the longsword at around 4300.
I mean I hate to bring up the idea of trickle down economics but it's actually working here.
But its not..
I factored in about 50 runs of CN and its clearly actually returning less to me then just running t1s, as long as you multi-class..
I will say if you just play one toon, you might be out ahead in cn by a middling margin.
Out of the 50 runs.. Ive only had about 6 r8s of any value (and not even one azure) just three silverys, I kept 2 raidiants (I kept) and 1 profane.. which I sold.
The epic salvage, barely drops from what Ive seen.. I mean maybe 1 out of every 5 runs give or take.
There is nothing that superior from CN vs just multi classing t1s.. however, they are clearly better then T2s right now.. which barely give anything.. and are bugged. In fact t2s are the worst runs in game ATM.. by a wide margin.
Bare minimum of ten elols every day = 100,000 Bare minimum running 6 cns in that time frame = 60,000
you need to have a fairly geared player to make CN time effective.. which is usually only your top 3 or so toons.. in about 6 cn runs = about the same time frame as ten elols..
You of course get RNG factor in CN.. if you get r8s to drop and good r8s.. but its not every run.. its again maybe every 4th or 5th run or MORE in between a good r8. Most of the time I Dont even take the second chest.. as its just blue junk (same as I wouldnt waste a key in elol)
You simply cannot claim CNs are better.. they are maybe at best about the same as doing t1 runs.. if you get good RNG.
Even though I think the roll factor on insignias "might" be higher in CN.. I also did 6 straight runs WITHOUT 1 sig dropping.. AT all in CN.. and this morning in elol ten runs.. we had one illumanted and one crescent drop on rolls.
So hmmmm its hard to completely factor that.
The only thing CN is doing good over the longer term is dropping price of r8s.. which if Im making slightly more in farming t1s.. I can buy cheaper for lower alts later.
So ya.. some of you need to keep farming this for me at least..
I think what's coming out here is the real answer to the question.
People ask for harder content. Then immediately refuse to accept any challenge unless they get rewards they perceive as equal to the challenge. Which, in order to meet this standard, would further exasperate the gear gap, and we're back in the same situation.
I don't think that's really true. Castle Never is marginally harder than other T2s and has much better rewards. Part of that was dropping rank 8s in dungeons. This didn't increase the gear gap; it decreased it by making the price of rank 8s drop to half of what they were on some enchants. Similarly the new RP only drops from CN but a shatter longsword is going for 2k. Even with the all the cheap peridots/lesser stones you're paying ~.73 AD per RP point which would put the longsword at around 4300.
I mean I hate to bring up the idea of trickle down economics but it's actually working here.
But its not..
I factored in about 50 runs of CN and its clearly actually returning less to me then just running t1s, as long as you multi-class..
I will say if you just play one toon, you might be out ahead in cn by a middling margin.
Out of the 50 runs.. Ive only had about 6 r8s of any value (and not even one azure) just three silverys, I kept 2 raidiants (I kept) and 1 profane.. which I sold.
The epic salvage, barely drops from what Ive seen.. I mean maybe 1 out of every 5 runs give or take.
There is nothing that superior from CN vs just multi classing t1s.. however, they are clearly better then T2s right now.. which barely give anything.. and are bugged. In fact t2s are the worst runs in game ATM.. by a wide margin.
Bare minimum of ten elols every day = 100,000 Bare minimum running 6 cns in that time frame = 60,000
you need to have a fairly geared player to make CN time effective.. which is usually only your top 3 or so toons.. in about 6 cn runs = about the same time frame as ten elols..
You of course get RNG factor in CN.. if you get r8s to drop and good r8s.. but its not every run.. its again maybe every 4th or 5th run or MORE in between a good r8. Most of the time I Dont even take the second chest.. as its just blue junk (same as I wouldnt waste a key in elol)
You simply cannot claim CNs are better.. they are maybe at best about the same as doing t1 runs.. if you get good RNG.
Even though I think the roll factor on insignias "might" be higher in CN.. I also did 6 straight runs WITHOUT 1 sig dropping.. AT all in CN.. and this morning in elol ten runs.. we had one illumanted and one crescent drop on rolls.
So hmmmm its hard to completely factor that.
The only thing CN is doing good over the longer term is dropping price of r8s.. which if Im making slightly more in farming t1s.. I can buy cheaper for lower alts later.
So ya.. some of you need to keep farming this for me at least..
I never said anything about the effect on personal AD gain in that post. The effect on the prices of things on the market place from better drops in CN is pretty clear. You also can't really argue that the drops are not better because they are. The rate might be about the same but you can have the same problems with elol.
What you're trying to argue is that the daily AD bonuses make running faster dungeons better but that has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
not really arguing, just pointing it out..
sadly, I was quite disappointed with the overall reward structure of CN.. and the one item they should drop to make it way more attractive is the insignias. Make them drop from every orcus rout and make them bta. This would make me run it till I had them all i needed.
But those are not even BTA.. so you cant go back and farm CN for your alts.
its really bad design.. which I would hope they will altar.
I think what's coming out here is the real answer to the question.
People ask for harder content. Then immediately refuse to accept any challenge unless they get rewards they perceive as equal to the challenge. Which, in order to meet this standard, would further exasperate the gear gap, and we're back in the same situation.
I don't think that's really true. Castle Never is marginally harder than other T2s and has much better rewards. Part of that was dropping rank 8s in dungeons. This didn't increase the gear gap; it decreased it by making the price of rank 8s drop to half of what they were on some enchants. Similarly the new RP only drops from CN but a shatter longsword is going for 2k. Even with the all the cheap peridots/lesser stones you're paying ~.73 AD per RP point which would put the longsword at around 4300.
I mean I hate to bring up the idea of trickle down economics but it's actually working here.
But its not..
I factored in about 50 runs of CN and its clearly actually returning less to me then just running t1s, as long as you multi-class..
I will say if you just play one toon, you might be out ahead in cn by a middling margin.
Out of the 50 runs.. Ive only had about 6 r8s of any value (and not even one azure) just three silverys, I kept 2 raidiants (I kept) and 1 profane.. which I sold.
The epic salvage, barely drops from what Ive seen.. I mean maybe 1 out of every 5 runs give or take.
There is nothing that superior from CN vs just multi classing t1s.. however, they are clearly better then T2s right now.. which barely give anything.. and are bugged. In fact t2s are the worst runs in game ATM.. by a wide margin.
Bare minimum of ten elols every day = 100,000 Bare minimum running 6 cns in that time frame = 60,000
you need to have a fairly geared player to make CN time effective.. which is usually only your top 3 or so toons.. in about 6 cn runs = about the same time frame as ten elols..
You of course get RNG factor in CN.. if you get r8s to drop and good r8s.. but its not every run.. its again maybe every 4th or 5th run or MORE in between a good r8. Most of the time I Dont even take the second chest.. as its just blue junk (same as I wouldnt waste a key in elol)
You simply cannot claim CNs are better.. they are maybe at best about the same as doing t1 runs.. if you get good RNG.
Even though I think the roll factor on insignias "might" be higher in CN.. I also did 6 straight runs WITHOUT 1 sig dropping.. AT all in CN.. and this morning in elol ten runs.. we had one illumanted and one crescent drop on rolls.
So hmmmm its hard to completely factor that.
The only thing CN is doing good over the longer term is dropping price of r8s.. which if Im making slightly more in farming t1s.. I can buy cheaper for lower alts later.
So ya.. some of you need to keep farming this for me at least..
I never said anything about the effect on personal AD gain in that post. The effect on the prices of things on the market place from better drops in CN is pretty clear. You also can't really argue that the drops are not better because they are. The rate might be about the same but you can have the same problems with elol.
What you're trying to argue is that the daily AD bonuses make running faster dungeons better but that has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
Drop per one CN may be slightly better over one elol run. But if u can squeeze 10 elol runs in time of doing 5 runs (its 1h 40m for my parties for elols, and 2h for 6 CN) 2 elols r basically worth 1 CN. Now for me, i have VIP, daily drop from 2 elols at minimum on 1 toon is 18.2k ad and thats only if i get 2 neckles and no savage drop, usually there is something better in chest and some salvage drops and it jump up to 25k ad + 3.3k from invoking. ON 5 toon its average 140k ad (bare minimal would be 105k ad) + every 4 days or so i can salvage 12.1-13.2k ad in seal items, on each toon. Weekly income basically jumps for me to (lets take only daily income) 980k. + occasional horn every 2 weeks or so.
No in time of 10 elol i can do 5 CN (more or less, i did usually 6 for that couple of days i was running CN) which means 3 toons getting daily ad + at best 13k in salvage, 25k per day on 3 toons + some rp and if im lucky, i get one r8 (for me mostly training one or such, no point of wasting keys). For 30 runs i got 2 x r8 (azure and radiant) both sold for 40k iirc. With that "rewarding" do u rly think its good idea to run CN, if u want to make manies?
Granted i got sudden defense +5 ring, which makes me rly happy.
Logic my fellow forum user, logic, use it once for a while.
(Sin)cerely Kain
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Reality is cryptic hasnt GIVING us unique and creative ways to progress our characters.. they gave us 1 way.. grinding.
reality is they gave us 1 revamped DD.. not 3-4.. after a few runs, you get it down, you explored, you might even have fun, its pretty much work after that.
reality is after leadership removal.. the only way to make AD is by grinding it..
Im not sure why you guys are upset about this..
In fact some of the same people who are yelling at me now.. are the SAME ones who told me to adjust to this new reality or leave!
egads.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
I think what's coming out here is the real answer to the question.
People ask for harder content. Then immediately refuse to accept any challenge unless they get rewards they perceive as equal to the challenge. Which, in order to meet this standard, would further exasperate the gear gap, and we're back in the same situation.
I'd honestly prefer they just offer "hardcore" achievements that reward unique titles, cosmetic items or even mount skins (now that it's a thing), instead of more powerful gear.
For example, "The End of Days" - Defeat all the challenges in CN without casting a daily spell. Or "Sheer Force of Will" - Defeat Demogorgon by only casting at-wills. "Out of the Friend Zone" - Finish eGWD, eCC and eToS without summoning a companion. And of course, to qualify it means your entire group needs to avoid dailies, at wills or companions...no cheeseballing here.
Those are things I'd like to see added.
I'd be happy to spend some time, sucking a up few party wipes and failures, for some cool cosmetic items.
Also Im getting either a RP drop or a cosmetic drop on every second run.
Possible solution: difficulty upgrades beyond the binary normal/epic. Beat one level of it enough and you get the next level which is just stronger mobs and perhaps some slightly higher rewards. It would have to depend on the playerbase, you can't have 10 different levels so nobody can ever get a group for most of them, but it would solve both sides, let players experience all of the content, and let it be challenging.
Comments
So, no Lostmauth set. No artifacts. No enchantments. No AP gain. Minimal Bonding runestones. We're still mowing through the 3-man dungeons. Okay, so Karrundax took a little while to bring down, but whatever. It's not like we were taking any damage. While naked.
This leads me to believe that the "power creep" is in with boons. We get a new set of them with every mod. That +400 here and +400 there, not to mention the SH boons, really add up.
Regardless.. at least the devs have addressed the XP gap issue for the 60-70 crowd. And despite people whining about the fact that EVERYONE should have access to EVERYTHING... that makes no sense. You don't hear level 20 characters crying because they can't beat Tiamat. There needs to be something to work for, to work towards..
There have been a zillion great ideas shared with the devs on how to deal with the power creep, but they're gonna stick to their game plan and continue to churn out whatever the HAMSTER they want... even if it's shooting themselves in their collective foot.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
btw.. Im a proponent of changing bonding stones to 3 only stack and longer duration .
Im not in favor of adjusting lost-mouth, unless THEY also adjust certain class structures at the same time, which I would be 100% ok with if they brought back CW spellstorm. (way overnerfed that class and only reason poeple dont see it is due to losty)
Either that or give back slightly more dps.. but also bring back system wide sing.. meatball and old encounter dps back to ss and the like before the nerfed the heck out of those things.
Im ok with adjustments.. im not ok with them ripping away 30%+ of CW dps just to fix GWF (the only class that actually that is way over performing at the base level with the set. )
The other classes get between 5-15% give or take with the dps..
So its WAY over simplifying the process saying just "nerf" it.. most classes dont see nearly the amount of dps as the top 2. A direct nerf , what does that do to trs, hrs? go from 5% dps boost to 2.5%? you see how ridiculous that is? This is why just "nerf" it crowd has way over simplified the issue.
Again.. I have no issues.. zero with them adjusting either the set or the classes, as long as they DO a followup and fix the CW class when they went bozonkers on the class when they shouldnt have.
In all direct correlation with the above.. I ONCE again would like to point out how ridiculous the actual loot and reward system in this game is.. with the need to run thousands and thousand sand thousands of dungeons to gear and play your toons.
THOUSANDs.. IE.. Ive run maybe 5-6k elols now.. 1k vts and a host of other mutliple edemos, tiamats, heralds, hundreds and hundreds of HEs in IWD when they actually rewarded you something..
WITH all of this .. ALL the above.. I barely feel like im advancing toons month to month.
making a dungeon go from 7 mins to 14 mins.. just to tune down the lostmout set.. is not ok.. unless they amp up rewards.. doubling the time for the same amount of AD..?
Ive never ground a mmo so hard in my life!
casual my foot.. it maybe the less casual friendly game Ive ever played.. not in terms of difficulty but of time.
Casual players.. just want to play a few hours a week .. that has nothing to do with the discussion on hand.. casual players dont even care about getting past 2k .. and they follow some random dudes internet guide that rhymes with marko..
then maybe if they get serious.. they actually fix stuff and start running thousands and thousands of dds.
Edit: FWIW The walls/problems have gotten a lot better over the years
(Intentionally hostile)
So yeh there you got your problem guys. Are you the best elite players up for a 'real challenge' or are you wallet warrior babbies who've bought/exploited/scammed your way into power and just want to burn through things for max rewards and complain that your bored.
(/hostile)
The original post spoke of learning to play and training new players, but 90% of the "tips" I see now are go to the Auction house and buy yourself XYZ and right into boredom, and that's even on the channel that plays with all levels. Added to that the number of people who flip out when runs aren't perfect-gold, or refuse to party with low-k cause they might not go as fast. The 2nd group seems larger to me, so you got a fight on your hands .. that is if there are enough skilled players left (first I've heard of naked runs in years). Players are addicted to AH/CS and power, and Cryptic loves it!
A: I'm not sure how much I can speak for the general opinion on it, but there is clearly a problem with it. It can make people invulerable when used in the right way. That's not a type of gameplay we intend to have out there. That being said, if we just flat out fix it, we also break meta. We break how certain builds work, and how the game is played. So we have to be careful about how we fix that, so we aren't making content impossible for some people because that was the only way to succeed.
That is not a type of gameplay we intend to have out there. And then says so we arent making content impossible for some poeple because that was the only way to succeed.
CAlling poeple idiots those lines or is my idea? IF Only way to succeed is the divine protector then we will never have challenge.
Since cryptic doesn´t care about this issue, endcontent will be solvable for every group where a "Bubbladin" runs ahead .... you can run your char naked with mainhand doing so.
I am pretty sure lot´s of groups, myself included running undergeared CN, will struggle in case this issue would be solved.
We didnt have overpowered items back then, but it took about a week before people started clearing it because it required TEAMWORK.
I remember the first ever clears of that dungeon were people who brute forced it with 5 dps or something like that, which were a clusterf*ck. Until some coordinated groups actually allocated sections of the room to teammates to activate, that was fun and interesting.
I'm all for more bosses with mechanics that require coordination rather than iLevel, which is basically what every dungeon right now is all about. But I wager the large majority do not want to sit outside a boss encounter discussing tactics.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
so devs saying about divine protector afraid to imidiatelly fix it is invalid. op has the aura of courage and if problems around can use also and the aura of protection. shield of faith is also good daily.
TO paladins: you have important auras i dont want you to make me immune to damage you are nice class and without divine protector. LETS stack buffs yea:)
More difficult content please. Running through everything in easy mode is boring. And if a few ppl QQ and leave the game, maybe the rest of us will be better off for it.
I didn't QQ about the fact that I was geared enough to run the tiamat raid until nearly two mods later, suck it up and work towards a goal guys (and girls).
L
Why does creating some challenging end game content mean there is nothing for low geared toons? As far as I can see, the whole game is aimed at easy peasy mode, a new player has countless options. Why cant well geared ppl who want a challenge get at least a tiny amount of content for them with each mod? If they put in a new dungeon, put in a normal version and an epic version that's hard, really hard.
Everyone complained about Mod 6 (which personally I liked) because they upped the difficulty of existing stuff that they had already done. I doubt there would be the same complaints and player exits if Mod 10 kept the current content as is and added new IL 3K or 3.5K+ areas.
Why create new shiny better weapons, armour, enchants, mounts etc. if the content stays the same difficulty? What's the point in upgrading if you don't need it to do the content (other then having an epeen contest with other players).
When ppl are soloing the hardest Dungeon in the game a week or so after it came out, something is wrong.
I am far from hardcore, other than an epic mount, a few character slots and a respect or two, I'm a f2p player with modest gear (two toons 3.1K), I play around 1 hour per day. I would say I am very much an average (median) player that's been around a while.
Easy to screw up your character doesn't mean challenging. Besides how would something like that even work with retraining tokens at the current price?
People ask for harder content. Then immediately refuse to accept any challenge unless they get rewards they perceive as equal to the challenge. Which, in order to meet this standard, would further exasperate the gear gap, and we're back in the same situation.
I'd honestly prefer they just offer "hardcore" achievements that reward unique titles, cosmetic items or even mount skins (now that it's a thing), instead of more powerful gear.
For example, "The End of Days" - Defeat all the challenges in CN without casting a daily spell. Or "Sheer Force of Will" - Defeat Demogorgon by only casting at-wills. "Out of the Friend Zone" - Finish eGWD, eCC and eToS without summoning a companion. And of course, to qualify it means your entire group needs to avoid dailies, at wills or companions...no cheeseballing here.
Those are things I'd like to see added.
I mean I hate to bring up the idea of trickle down economics but it's actually working here.
It is either a case of add good loot to dungeons and have them be challenging, or adding an element of contest, either would do fine.
I factored in about 50 runs of CN and its clearly actually returning less to me then just running t1s, as long as you multi-class..
I will say if you just play one toon, you might be out ahead in cn by a middling margin.
Out of the 50 runs.. Ive only had about 6 r8s of any value (and not even one azure) just three silverys, I kept 2 raidiants (I kept) and 1 profane.. which I sold.
The epic salvage, barely drops from what Ive seen.. I mean maybe 1 out of every 5 runs give or take.
There is nothing that superior from CN vs just multi classing t1s.. however, they are clearly better then T2s right now.. which barely give anything.. and are bugged. In fact t2s are the worst runs in game ATM.. by a wide margin.
Bare minimum of ten elols every day = 100,000
Bare minimum running 6 cns in that time frame = 60,000
you need to have a fairly geared player to make CN time effective.. which is usually only your top 3 or so toons.. in about 6 cn runs = about the same time frame as ten elols..
You of course get RNG factor in CN.. if you get r8s to drop and good r8s.. but its not every run.. its again maybe every 4th or 5th run or MORE in between a good r8. Most of the time I Dont even take the second chest.. as its just blue junk (same as I wouldnt waste a key in elol)
You simply cannot claim CNs are better.. they are maybe at best about the same as doing t1 runs.. if you get good RNG.
Even though I think the roll factor on insignias "might" be higher in CN.. I also did 6 straight runs WITHOUT 1 sig dropping.. AT all in CN.. and this morning in elol ten runs.. we had one illumanted and one crescent drop on rolls.
So hmmmm its hard to completely factor that.
The only thing CN is doing good over the longer term is dropping price of r8s.. which if Im making slightly more in farming t1s.. I can buy cheaper for lower alts later.
So ya.. some of you need to keep farming this for me at least..
What you're trying to argue is that the daily AD bonuses make running faster dungeons better but that has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
sadly, I was quite disappointed with the overall reward structure of CN.. and the one item they should drop to make it way more attractive is the insignias. Make them drop from every orcus rout and make them bta. This would make me run it till I had them all i needed.
But those are not even BTA.. so you cant go back and farm CN for your alts.
its really bad design.. which I would hope they will altar.
I also agree with everything ironzerg79 wrote. That sounds very good.
No in time of 10 elol i can do 5 CN (more or less, i did usually 6 for that couple of days i was running CN) which means 3 toons getting daily ad + at best 13k in salvage, 25k per day on 3 toons + some rp and if im lucky, i get one r8 (for me mostly training one or such, no point of wasting keys). For 30 runs i got 2 x r8 (azure and radiant) both sold for 40k iirc. With that "rewarding" do u rly think its good idea to run CN, if u want to make manies?
Granted i got sudden defense +5 ring, which makes me rly happy.
Logic my fellow forum user, logic, use it once for a while.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
reality is they gave us 1 revamped DD.. not 3-4.. after a few runs, you get it down, you explored, you might even have fun, its pretty much work after that.
reality is after leadership removal.. the only way to make AD is by grinding it..
Im not sure why you guys are upset about this..
In fact some of the same people who are yelling at me now.. are the SAME ones who told me to adjust to this new reality or leave!
egads.
Also Im getting either a RP drop or a cosmetic drop on every second run.
Read: they do not want exp players here. They want people who pay cash.
Also more dungeons would be nice.