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[SHPVP] The Necessary Changes
dersidius
Member Posts: 452 Arc User
Let me start off by saying that I'm ecstatic that a PvP game type has finally been added after 7 modules of wait. But as I mentioned on the Alpha Forums, these changes are necessary to it's success
1 ) Laneing Phase needs better Minion waves
2 ) Towers Need to be more Dominate
3 ) Participants need to be reduced to 15v15
4 ) Backcapping Shouldn't be Possible
5 ) Supplies need to be re-weighted
6 ) Dragon Phase needs more Coins
"Laneing Phase": Quite currently, there is no laneing phase. Maybe I'm blinded (My guild has won every game with all 6000 Points in tact) but there are to many things wrong with lanes in general that need to be addressed.
Towers: Right Now, towers are almost useless, and can be ignored. A towers presence in a lane should be dominating, but not unconquerable. These rules need to be added to towers to give them a proper presence in a lane.
Dragon Phase: I really enjoy the defensive/Offensive use of the dragons, my only real suggestion is to really buff the amount of coins in the phase itself, and place golems in ares where both teams will be forced to clash. In addition to that, their should be a marker to indicate who has coins on the other team, and how many.
Catapults: With the changes to supply depots mentioned above, and the removal of back capping deep structures, catapults in general will be sitting at a very good spot, their damage is pretty spot on where it needs to be. But with the institution of more supplies, the scaling on catapult ammo and building cost will also need to be amended while also increasing HP.
**Catapult Bug** IF a trickster rogue uses shadowy disappearance through a catapult, it forces the catapult to be displaced, and 100% broken / un-firing throughout the rest of the match. With all 6 catapults bugged, the match becomes pretty close to unwinnable.
Conclusion: I very much understand this is a larger amount of content and changes to add. However I completely stand-by the necessity of them. I don't take credit for the creation of such "balancing methods". These rules are the general rules that conduct any Laneing Game Type (As seen on MoBA's). should all these be implemented, the game type and feel will be considerably more rewarding, and as such draw a lot more players. After that, the only issue left will be the fact that a Guild will be forever more coordinated then a group of pugs. Maybe dropping the total attendee's on each side down to 10 or 15 (1 party per lane) will help out drastically.
There's multiple ways to take this, please comment all suggestions!
Short Summary
See Below for Indepth Details
1 ) Laneing Phase needs better Minion waves
2 ) Towers Need to be more Dominate
3 ) Participants need to be reduced to 15v15
4 ) Backcapping Shouldn't be Possible
5 ) Supplies need to be re-weighted
6 ) Dragon Phase needs more Coins
"Laneing Phase": Quite currently, there is no laneing phase. Maybe I'm blinded (My guild has won every game with all 6000 Points in tact) but there are to many things wrong with lanes in general that need to be addressed.
- Supplies & Their Impact: At the moment, supplies are way too few and are weighted far to much, they need to increase the supplies available by a considerable amount, and reduce their weight even further... 10 supplies should not bolster a guild to 6000 HP, maybe 40-50 supplies for max defensive buff
- Engineers & Other NPC's: Right now, 1 Engineer is spawned every 20 seconds it seems like.. with 1 supply... they need to address this so it mimics a proper lane wave. Increase the engineers to 3 to give a wave 3 total supplies, then have them be escorted by 2-3 archer minions that will clash with other NPC's at the middle of the lane if not escorted by a player. In addition to this change, NPC's need to interact with structures as follows:
- A ) If escorted all the way to enemy supply depot, all supplies should immediately enter enemy supply depot and force HP reduction on the Depot.
- B ) (Presently Unconfirmed) IF these waves go under an enemy tower, the tower should do damage to these waves to hinder the progression of these waves.
- C ) If NPCS meet a tower, they should do some form of damage to the structure in the same way they interact with supply depots. (See Towers Section).
- D ) NPC Archer Escorts should target players if no other NPC Target is available. My suggestion is 5K Piercing Damage per Arror of archer escort. This way players won't ignore the waves and actually be forced to clear them so that they don't lose structures, or lose their lives. In addition it also means it will be harder to force a lane if the other team has a wave present and your team doesn't.
- E ) All Supplies dropped by NPC's need to be despawned in 10-20 Seconds.
- A ) If escorted all the way to enemy supply depot, all supplies should immediately enter enemy supply depot and force HP reduction on the Depot.
- "Backcapping": Currently, your able to take supply depots even if the depot closest to your base is not under your possession in that lane. This needs to be stripped, and if your missing a supply depot in (X) Lane, and you attack a deeper structure, it should be immune to damage. This will force more team players, force players to respect supply depots a lot more, and create the need to build a base before pushing forward and attacking. This will passively increase the overall defense a guild hall has in general.
- Supply Depots: 1 Man should not be able to defend a whole supply depot vs 10. The immunity a supply depot has should only be respected on a man to man basis. IF the enemy out numbers the defending team, the immunity on the supply depot should be dropped.
Towers: Right Now, towers are almost useless, and can be ignored. A towers presence in a lane should be dominating, but not unconquerable. These rules need to be added to towers to give them a proper presence in a lane.
- These structures need to be intractable almost like a supply depot, destroy-able, fixable, but not convertible to the enemy side.
- The damage on these structures need to be fixed in the following fashions:
- A ) The damage needs to be auto-locked, not ground centered AoE.
- B ) The damage needs to be complete piercing damage, but dodgeable.
- C ) The damage needs to prioritize NPC's first, unless one player attacks another player within the vicinity of the tower.
- D ) Tower's damage range needs some form of ground markings to display its range in a visible fashion
- A ) The damage needs to be auto-locked, not ground centered AoE.
- Wizard Towers need a buff to match archer tower damage.
Dragon Phase: I really enjoy the defensive/Offensive use of the dragons, my only real suggestion is to really buff the amount of coins in the phase itself, and place golems in ares where both teams will be forced to clash. In addition to that, their should be a marker to indicate who has coins on the other team, and how many.
Catapults: With the changes to supply depots mentioned above, and the removal of back capping deep structures, catapults in general will be sitting at a very good spot, their damage is pretty spot on where it needs to be. But with the institution of more supplies, the scaling on catapult ammo and building cost will also need to be amended while also increasing HP.
**Catapult Bug** IF a trickster rogue uses shadowy disappearance through a catapult, it forces the catapult to be displaced, and 100% broken / un-firing throughout the rest of the match. With all 6 catapults bugged, the match becomes pretty close to unwinnable.
Conclusion: I very much understand this is a larger amount of content and changes to add. However I completely stand-by the necessity of them. I don't take credit for the creation of such "balancing methods". These rules are the general rules that conduct any Laneing Game Type (As seen on MoBA's). should all these be implemented, the game type and feel will be considerably more rewarding, and as such draw a lot more players. After that, the only issue left will be the fact that a Guild will be forever more coordinated then a group of pugs. Maybe dropping the total attendee's on each side down to 10 or 15 (1 party per lane) will help out drastically.
There's multiple ways to take this, please comment all suggestions!
DERSIDIUS
Post edited by dersidius on
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I hope they are looking for feedback about SHPVP because this is spot on!
You got rekt 6000:0 vs .Suicide Squad., Absolute.
ez
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
And it is exactly what you told. YAY! We have fairies in our guild.
btw. Most Absolute left once defeated and got replaced with PUGs
But dont worry, a few left to the end (like Hero).
Just… Whenever I hear somebody says "Nobody defeated us", I have to defeat them and counter post. You are not so good (as the whole guild) since you got many newbies to guild. Face it!
And to the point. I agree with 1, 2, 5 & 6.
Ad. 1. 10 supplies is far too low, or they should give like +50 HP. At max.
Ad. 2. I often only face 2 minions with 2 supplies each. It is not even enough to fire first catapult.
Ad. 3. I need to disagree. I think the map is too big and most of the playtime on Strongholds Siege takes to building or just running. I want to PvP more and I think, map should be capped at 40v40 or at lest 30v30 in the current form. And most of alpha testers says the same: The map is too big.
Another solution: Give us "Speed ×2" buff both on mount and without mount once out of aggro and >200 units from visible enemy / NPC.
Ad. 4. It is a really good tactic to backcap, that makes overcapping the point to defend it with NPC more viable. I think it is a nice feature that makes us to fight on 6 nodes instead of on just 3. Especially, 40 players fighting on 3 nodes is quite unreal.
Ad. 5. Yup, they should. Add more of them (especially to the engeeners) and increase the amount of needed supplies to heal Guildhall, to build Balistas (nerf to 1 during Alpha tests was too big) and to build catapults (maybe 8?).
Ad. 6. Yes, it needs. And… don't end the dragon phase once some team collects 15 coins. It is way too early.
Honestly, on 15 matches, most of dragon phases ended within the 10 minutes with collected 15 coins on our side.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Piercing damage has its place, and i'd be fine if it got added here, but it needs to treat all the classes the same. So piercing, but can't be dodged either.
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
In a guild fight it doesn't matter we win or lose, we do not quit till the end, and you will no doubt seeing some of our beloved healers like Flynn, QueenB, Nhell or monster OP like Balerion as well as skilled DPSer like Sic, Schneider, Isode, Kalina and so (Lancer is only there cus we have a spot free! ：Ｄ) anyway, I am not here to argue as we win and we lose, but on Wednesday's 8~9 hours SH Guild PvP run, we have beaten every game by 6000/0, with the last game being 5500/0 or so, and maybe you would actually see our real team this weekend, who knows
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I don't know about you, but i really don't want to experience a "laning phase" its one of hte most mind numbing parts of mobas. also back capping is fine and promotes defense, and sorts out the zerg from the ones with some brains on them.
The only problem i have with strongholds is making the dragon a bit more significant or reduce cooldown.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
I know them well, don't worry. And I know that Lancer is your guild face
And yeah, yeah, I know… there was no full 20 of Absolute and we played with BTG.
Just wanted to say. Ah! Here we go. No longer unbeaten. Here we go. No offence
I know a lot of people are skeptical, and critical. I don't doubt the validity of those claims... but me, I'd rather see the more positive side of this from the standpoint of "future potential." If for any reason, at any point in the future, that they actually decide to make the gameplay more "rich", it would probably be easier to implement new stuff in a big map that's designed for 20v20, rather than have to reimplemnt a big map and 20v20 system.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
you play 30 matches. hhmmm. i am waiting at que sometimes 30 minutes or more, there must be high incentive to match premades first, otherwise its impossible to have so many
the day where pvp guild members express they need to use mischievous ways .... sky fall at that time
so nobody use this of course so devs waste their time to fix it
sad true is there is more than enough documents about bad appless but guilds dont care because they have profit from that. period
Piercing damage has its place, and i'd be fine if it got added here, but it needs to treat all the classes the same. So piercing, but can't be dodged either.
Thats pretty fair, I mostly mentioned "Dodge-able" to endear some form of counter-play. Not to give one set of classes an edge or otherwise.
Stop with aoe persistant protecting powers your game don't support them, wipe them and give personnal buff instead.
I mean our guild doesnt ALWAYS do premade games with majority team. I have solo Qd for SH PVP, I have trio qued, I have 5 man qued.
Unless a team is ATLEATS "majority" which means 11 players I wouldnt consider it an "absolute team" Even at 11 players I would be questioning the game. If you want to play us I would WELCOME the challenge! When do you want to set it up?
Have I lost in SH? Sure. But never with more than 5 players from Abs. The most # of players I have played with from Abs and lost was 3 other guys... hardly constitutes a premade.
Also, if SH PVP isnt your guilds "game" we can always take this to domination too
Also again, if you DO see any players leaving a game, let me know! This is heavily frowned upon and so far have not heard or seen anyone do so intentionally, there have been game crashes - yesterday it was so bad I ended up in a 5v3 SH game LOL! So nearly everyone lagged out of the map...
Anyways, let me know when we can set up a PM versus you guys!
but ye it would be awesome
SH may have some goods and some of bads, but currently I can't even enjoy whatever "some goods" there is, because of lag... and I believe this affects a lot of other people and their impression of SH as well. You can't really appreciate what they have done for you, if rubberbanding, input-pauses, out-put pauses, non-response, and a whole lot of lag-related chit is going on...
...and no, it's not vid lag. It IS net lag.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1. lag is unbearable
2. why there are level 50-59 queues, 60-69 queues but there's only one queue for level 70. I as a 2k player (sorry I don't have money to afford ZEN and I'm not a botter) end up playing against 4k premade teams
3. SHPVP map is boring, I really enjoy GG where I don't end up running behind horse's as* all the time
Why is it so hard for Cryptic to create couple of new small and simple domination maps like ones already there. Maybe I could enjoy SHPVP, but I cant. There's just no balance between the teams so I end up quitting just after I got in.
Additional queues should exist:
- `Team PVP` where people can enqueue with a premade team
- `Single PVP` where you must enqueue alone so RED and BLUES can be balanced by the server
Anyway, I'm really growing to quit this game for good. I really love it and I'm kinda addicted to it, but with each new mod where you take back beloved content from me (missing maps like the Pirate, Castle Never etc.) and put new one where 4k people dominate makes me cry.