mutjinninjaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 93Arc User
In looking at the bigger picture, what I see is a game lacking in endgame content (that was stolen from us and never returned), lacking in any reason to run anything in pve once you have your seal gear (since we can sell nothing and nothing is BoE anymore), and lacking in any real way to make AD. The only semi-viable path before was to create a leadership army to afford things. Do you think that armor and weapon enchants are sold for crazy high prices because people have a lot of AD? No. They are priced like that because of the extremely high and prohibitive cost to make. So that cost will remain and the way most people were able to overcome it will be taken away. RIP to ever buying endgame and high-level gear again.
Additionally...with the much-touted mod 7 around the corner...how exactly do you expect us to generate the AD need to upgrade the stronghold without our armies? How are we supposed to come up with the frankly ludicrous costs for our base if we're, say, a guild of 80 people who now pull in 24k RAD per day? Since we cannot and will not go through the hassle of maintaining and ingame army. By the time we get anywhere in mod 7, mod 8 will be here.
I WAS excited for mod 7. Was ready to spend my AD and help my guild. Now I'm just gonna hibernate till mod 8 where all mod 7 gear is antiquated and there is something perhaps worthwhile to spend my severely stunted income on.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I believe it was @denvald who brought up the point that Gateway's profession interface is simply easier to use than the one in game, because of basic features like being able to hit "back" to repeat a task. For my part, even when able to collect professions in-game (because who the heck can afford to waste the few hundred extra XP from various boosts if they don't have to?), I would reset them using Gateway because it was far less cumbersome.
Okay I looked at the big picture... and what I see is like I said earlier in my largely supported post. We are not so upset about them taking botting out of the gateway... that is actually a good/great idea... or it would be if there was any legitimate way to bring money into the game right now. Unlike XBox we don't get gmops from dungeons... we don't have fast completion on professions... we literally have jack squat unless you are a zombie or a team of small children working around the clock to try and make sure you micro manage your professions 24/7 for several months just to make them max... it took me weeks to finish jewelcrafting... its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> obnoxious and there is no excuse for it. So I won't really entertain the thought of defending them in this action because if they really wanted to fix botting they should have first look at the reasons a person might consider botting... like oh... the staggering inability to obtain resources that are absolutely necessary for progression... like they put HARD COST limits on items like GMOPs which are like 100k... that is not easy to obtain in this game to begin with... but then you add in the fact that most of the AD we are capable of earning is money pumped into the economy by bots it actually means this will make the game much harder for regular players.
It is just the facts... if inflation goes down... I can't get as much money for the artifact I grind 24/7 to find... so I only get 400k for it... which barely gets you 1/100th of the gmops you need to complete a full set of gear... and that is not an exaggeration... you need at least 20 gmops per enchant... its disgusting how high the requirements are in comparison to the ability to obtain AD... and sending us a cute little "woops" post an hour after they get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on in the forums for making a rash decision without providing countermeasures or redeeming add ons.... saying that they are "thinking about legitimate ways to make ad" no... no... no <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that... you don't crash the hell out of an economy saying "we are thinking about it" when you make a move like this you have to have a plan or the economy melts down faster than a fukushima reactor...
This decision was made rashly... without proper thought or response to its effects.. and I give them no props on it.. no credit... and no respect... That is my opinion alone
Everyone knows about the botters in the gateway. If you think the AD generation is the cause of the problem then you are extremely nearsighted. Prices in the game are dictated by the rarity of item availability and the fact that most items are all based on Zen prices.
1 zen = 500 AD.
That means any price you set something to in zen will be reflected in the games market. Since Zen prices are so insanely margined this means AD costs are just as high. The influx of AD into the game doesn't do anything other than give players the ability to keep up with the ridiculous Zen costs.
As it stands no new normal player can hope to reach the point the old school players are at.
Strum, thank you for coming to the forums to state your opinions. It is nice to see feedback given based on the concerns of the community.
The problem that everyone has is that the fixes and changes that are made to combat bots are felt more by the players than the people who bot. The bots will just use in game scripts to bot leadership. It will be a little more difficult, but still doable. This is more of a game design flaw with the way astral diamonds are acquired than anything. Easily botted things like leadership are the highest income for AD. AD income could be completely removed from leadership and instead give RP that would be of equal value. Many players use their AD for RP now so they would not feel much of a lose. This also would put a hit on bots other source of income, RP. RP value would drop. Players actually using leadership would not have a drop in how fast they got RP compared to now, and botters would make significantly less to the point it would not even be worth having leadership armies for them.
Taking AD away from leadership would require more ways to actually get AD though. This could be added to top end game play. Bots do not do epic dungeons, what would it hurt to give 10k rads per epic dungeon. A person would not be doing more than a few dungeons per day. This would give actual players a way to keep AD income, and not give bots a way to earn AD. Most all content that cannot be botted should give AD or RAD. This rewards actual players and not the bot. Players also do not have unlimited time and cannot run dozens of characters at once to abuse this so the income is limited by play time.
Items that are acquired in dungeons should not all be bound. To stop the market from being flooded with items, there could be a 10% chance to get a non bound version of the item. This would allow people who actually play, not bot, to acquire AD. When salvaging these rarer, non bound versions of the items they should give normal AD and not RAD. Only give RAD for bound items. Giving normal AD would not by any means allow someone to earn much over the RAD limit in AD each day, but would stop items that were unbound for being sold for less than the salvage amount by people who reached the RAD limit. This stops people who are not actually doing the content from making AD off the system.
Players would not complain about actual ways to make AD. There are tons of things that bots cannot do but players do. Those are usually the things that players enjoy the most as well. With more ways to make AD, only botters would complain about leadership no longer giving AD. Changing the ways that AD is earned would work much better than trying to stop bots from botting something that is easily botted.
Something that has been mentioned several times by people has been giving an account wide AD limit instead of a character limit. With the current way that AD is earned through things like leadership that are not actual playing, this would be a horrible idea. If it was capped at something like 100k per account, people that bot would just use more accounts to do the same thing. The only people it would hurt are people that actually play. Most people that play have one account. This is because accountwide things such as mounts can be given to each character. Bots do not care about that so they can have as many accounts as they want.
Strum, I believe many of us
are worried about this issue, leadership is literally the games only way of producing ad out of thin air in mass amounts.
So here's the issues with the suggested changes
Yes the ad pool in game atm will sink titanically, and yes prices will go down as well, but the issue is unless another means of AD generation is implemented into the game , AD pool will sink so far down and prices will get to a point where they can't follow
It could be a doomsday philosophy, but this sounds like the workings for a depression.
In addition to this, even though no game company openly admits it, it's a fact that bots are in some way, healthy for a games economy, so why are we removing ours ?
People always say they want to be compensated for nerfs and I feel the same way, but in the end we don't know what the devs envision an adequate daily income to be.
it doesn't matter what they invision as adequate... because to them if we had 0 income it would be perfect for them... we would just have to pay for money.... and that's what they want.. more dollars in their pocket. at the very least we should be able to make 100k a day minimum and its not currently something efficient to try and manage in a game where there is no new income coming into the game... how the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is anyone supposed to afford gmops and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with this change... I feel like the prices of everything are going to go down so far that I won't stand a chance of gearing up...
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
I support this change, and if they can further do something about in-game bots that farms enchantment and things, that would be even more awesome! Then introduce a new currency that reduce the usefulness of AD and create a new fresh economy!
I think many people dont realise how this change will impact the game in long run. The AD amount generated through leadership armies was indeed thrilling (you dont need any developer tools to see that, just do some analysis of the market) - when I once said that leadership was toxic to the game, because of gateway botters, I got hostile responses, but I say that again - leadership as for now IS toxic to the game. I also think that perfect solution - punishing bots while leaving legit players untouched was not possible, so even if this is really harsh for some people and this way maybe was not the best way of dealing with botters (or maybe it was) - it is better than leaving things as they are now.
ALSO
Think of the other side of the coin - what happens if the flow of AD stops?
1. ZAX - remember when you could get Zen for 200AD? Now you have to wait long time to buy them for 500 AD. And thats only because many Zen sellers dont have time, or didnt find out that instead of selling Zen you can buy most wanted items and sell them directly on AH reaching price 540 AD/Zen and thats after AH cut. During events like rp x 2 you can reach 600AD/Zen. When AD overflow goes away Zen should be easy to buy in normal way - maybe not for 200 AD but for sure less than 500 AD and you wont need to wait.
2. 24k AD/day limit as only source of AD per toon - as for now this is few, because of prices of everything. If AD overflow stops your 24k AD will be worth much more, because everything will be cheaper - except of stuff with constant prices, like GMOPs.
3. For the same reason as above the legit farm from in game leadership will be more rewarding - because any AD generated through human-controlled leadership is going to be worth much more.
4. Greater rewards for playing the game - the AD from Salvage/Daily/Skirmishes/Dungeons gets a boost, because with lower prices you can buy much more for that.
5. Cheaper RP, artifacts, mounts... almost everything.
6. People that used leadership to generate more AD will now be able to use gateway to generate other resources that will be sold on AH that can invigorate economy - crafts, dragon eggs, unified elements, cloths. On side note - unified elements price is going to skyrocket from today because they're fixing exploit that allowed to obtain them very easily. Just look at the AH, before patch notes unified elements price was ~15k/piece, but it already jumped to 30k+ because people know their supply is going to be cut drastically.
7. Many more, engage your creativity
Just as example - lets say AD income is now two times smaller. Im not saying this is the amount of botted AD, but just for the sake of argument. What happens to players after sinks soak the leftovers of AD overflow?
Examples. Points are not connected between themselves, its just to help you imagine what happens:
1. ZAX - the Zen/AD ratio is now 1:250-300 AD
2. You can buy for your 24k AD daily limit as much as now for 48k AD
3. Your leadership AD rewards are now worth twice as much
4. Skirmishes runs now bring 2k AD/run, Dungeons hourly gives 6k AD from chest + 6k-10k = 12k-16k AD with free daily key and 2k-6k without key - yeah, still not awesome, but unrewarding dungeons is one of thing that kills PvE and I really hope that "new AD sources" they mentioned in blog will partially fix that.
5. Stack of Peridots now costs 30k-40k AD. You can buy Lostmauth horn for <600k-700k.
6. Professions now require more micromanagment, but bring better rewards for those that dont bot.
SUMMING UP (aka TL:DR):
1. Everything becomes way cheaper
2. Most people that used leadership through gateway in legit way will STILL be able to afford more things, because they will either move to other profession, or they will change their system to set tasks in game and with point 1 they will be able to purchase more for the same rewards.
Also, please look from wider perspective before judging my post.
Are there any plans to introduce alternative, in-game ways for regular workforce people with only a moderate workday time window to get AD (via Leadership or otherwise)?
Like e.g.
- adding AD to quest rewards
- giving the option to queue quest orders in the LShip window
- adding or changing standard non-rare tasks so that mid-level AD minting is compatible with a normal 8h+ workday
- ...
If not, I foresee some changes to the economy indeed:
- AH prices will fall
- AD sink items will either become prohibitively expensive for many or will have to be lowered
- the ZAX backlog will vanish
- the ZEN-AD-rate will drop due to the reduced influx and resulting relative scarcity of AD
- ZEN sales will probably go down, as people subjectively feel they get less bang for their buck
- ...
You say one step at a time but every problem the dev's try deal they go nuclear to try solve a small problem.
* Foundry XP was nerfed because people could fast level in it - Overkill and now not a single person i know in game has run one for over a year. also rewards suck
* Dragon hoards - cheep RP was the only way to level up our gear that gets replaced every mod they first got made BTA then they got a 20s CD put on them THEN they got a daily drop limit or time limit where they get a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> drop rate.
Every time we get something that could make the game less of a grind the Devs hit it with a nuke and tell us "oh this is temporary fix we will work on a better solution later" then they brush it under the rug and hope no one asks when that solution is coming.
Just saying with the recent events with companions and everything players trust is at an all time low.
I think many people dont realise how this change will impact the game in long run. The AD amount generated through leadership armies was indeed thrilling (you dont need any developer tools to see that, just do some analysis of the market) - when I once said that leadership was toxic to the game, because of gateway botters, I got hostile responses, but I say that again - leadership as for now IS toxic to the game.
You are forgetting in-game leadership botting. It will increase. Professional botters will not bother.
If they really wanted to fight botters they should remove AD from leadership and add AD behind a "play-wall". It was suggested again and again that AD should be added as a reward for doing daily quests and dungeon runs (not just during dungeon delve time and as a daily quest). Actual playing is difficult to automate.
I doubt that RP will be getting cheaper. The amount of RP items may now decrease while demand stays the same. Prices could go up.
Doing leadership in-game is a pain and takes much longer than using the gateway. Therefore it'll probably gonna hurt legit players way more than professional botters.
Yeah everything may become cheaper but it doesnt mean you will have the means to afford it.People will lose nearly 90% of their income so 50% reduction in the item costs is actually means 80-90% increase in the general sense.By the way there are people with 100s of millions with refined AD and less new AD entry in the market means they will literally own the market in a month or so
1) GMOP price will stay the same.
2) Ward prices will stay the same.
3) AD requirements for Strongholds will stay the same.
4) AD costs for boons etc. will stay the same.
You say that but you don't take into the account the greed. The whales already have the market in their grip. The zen market will crash because nobody will sell their zen at lower prices. Do you really think someone is going to spend $20 to get $18 worth of something?
Andy - I totally and utterly agree with your intentions and the size of the problem. This needs to be addressed and addressed properly.
The problem is that the step you have announced will not fix it.
I should add you now have 3 threads discussing this same issue (if not more that I haven't seen so apologies for my repeating myself).
1. This does not stop botting in game. Yes, botting in game is slower, but since it is a bot after all, I can't see how the person running the bot cares.
2. This doesn't punish botting or prevent it long term. Introducing a capcha to the gateway would be fine, with a forced relog every 2h or so. Banning, suspending anyone who runs bots would do help a long way too. There are many legit players who use leadership due to lack of alternatives and have invested time and money to get there.
3. You need to provide alternatives. Others have said it better. The rewards in game that aren't bottable (e.g. skill nodes) need to be looked at. At present people run through dungeons without even opening chests etc. as there's nothing in there worth having.
Please consider merging things into one thread to discuss this issue
You say one step at a time but every problem the dev's try deal they go nuclear to try solve a small problem.
* Foundry XP was nerfed because people could fast level in it - Overkill and now not a single person i know in game has run one for over a year. also rewards suck
* Dragon hoards - cheep RP was the only way to level up our gear that gets replaced every mod they first got made BTA then they got a 20s CD put on them THEN they got a daily drop limit or time limit where they get a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> drop rate.
Every time we get something that could make the game less of a grind the Devs hit it with a nuke and tell us "oh this is temporary fix we will work on a better solution later" then they brush it under the rug and hope no one asks when that solution is coming.
Just saying with the recent events with companions and everything players trust is at an all time low.
Well said.
As a guy who can only afford to play around 2 hours every other day ingame , logging into the gateway from the toilet/work/any other small chance I get is what has been keeping me hooked and gave me a feeling of progression.
Now , after spending a month of efforts to buy character slots& level around 11 leadership characters I really dont feel like spending any more time with this game.This same thing will happen again in the future.
I've been an active promoter of your game and have hooked and brought many friends& players.
I've always said good things about NW and encouraged my friends to support you with money.
I've downvoted negative reviews of NW and upvoted positive ones every chance I had.
No more!If you are reading this do not play this game and most certainly dont spend real money on it you will just get scammed!
I appreciate the fact that you are trying to do something about botters. This is a good thing, the problem is that the botters will now turn to the game. With more bots(network connection and using server resources .... dare i say spamming players) hitting the game the lagging and dc's will get worst than the catastrophic state it is now.
And just remembered botting will use professions like tailoring and artifacting too. Will this be removed in future updates?
There are more than BIS players in this game RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ???? FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
Many good posts here, ill try to write mine. Leave gateway as it is now and make ad limit on account per/day. For example +25k AD limit per every uniqe class that reach lvl 60/70. Max up to 200k AD per day, until there was a new class. Such first step would be seen not as negative imho
How many times do we have to say that companies need to award their players for playing the game. Bots farm kits/mobs for enchants? Remove them from their loot table entirely. How about you put them in boss loot table in a form of an item or pack of enchants then as many have suggested then according to the difficulty of the instance. "Oh but then someone who can run dungeons all day will progress faster" you might say. Well that's the idea. He plays the game and he's awarded for it.
1) GMOP price will stay the same.
2) Ward prices will stay the same.
3) AD requirements for Strongholds will stay the same.
4) AD costs for boons etc. will stay the same.
1. I mentioned GMOPs
2. You mean Coal/Prot wards? They are going to be cheaper. Not from $ perspective, but AD flow never impacted that. They are going to cost less in AD on AH/through Zax, though.
3 + 4 - This is true, but cost of these is minimal in toon development (at least 4, I cant check 3 because my preview wont load for me, but I guess it doesnt cost hundreds of k).
I will also add another point: 5. Shirts/Pants/jewels price will drop, but not as much as everything else, because of constant AD cost.
The overall cost of toon development will be much smaller, though and thats my main point.
Yeah everything may become cheaper but it doesnt mean you will have the means to afford it.People will lose nearly 90% of their income so 50% reduction in the item costs is actually means 80-90% increase in the general sense.
I think 90% income from gateway leadership is very, very extreme for any human-controlled activity. And saying "people" as assumption that everybody, or even majority of playerbase was relying on gateway leadership as their only AD source is exaggeration, in my opinion.
You are forgetting in-game leadership botting. It will increase. Professional botters will not bother.
They will bother, because gateway botting is a lot faster and more effective, than in-game botting. Also, professional botters are 1 thing and amateur botters are other thing - the gateway bot is practically public, or at least way more accessible than any in-game bot. This will not remove AD botting completely, but hinder it quite much.
There are so many ways this could have been fixed better. Ok, most of the already proposed ones would have meant a major change to the game, but there are ways to "low-effort" fix it without the massive collateral damage. E.g. instead of putting the Leadership rewards into a mini-dungeon (~5-10 minutes) chest with space for about 2 days worth of tasks instead of directly the inventory. Bye, bye big bot farms, next to no impact on normal players...and even a way to get players to log into the game who might be drifting away.
I support this change, and if they can further do something about in-game bots that farms enchantment and things, that would be even more awesome! Then introduce a new currency that reduce the usefulness of AD and create a new fresh economy!
Most of us WOULD support this change, if they did what you say and make a new economy.. one that supports players that play the game by rewarding them with things they need.... however they won't do this because this change wasn't made to hurt bots... like salvaging nerfs.. dungeon drop nerfs and so on... the ways to make AD have been stripped from this game while the prices of making gear have gotten higher and higher... its almost like they want everyone in game to be poor... that is because they do... because then you are more likely to buy what you want with money...
So to reiterate the reason we are mad is not because they tried to save the economy by fighting bots.. its because they are killing bots to ruin the economy to force people to fess up more dollars or get out...
...AD income could be completely removed from leadership and instead give RP that would be of equal value. Many players use their AD for RP now so they would not feel much of a lose. This also would put a hit on bots other source of income, RP. RP value would drop. Players actually using leadership would not have a drop in how fast they got RP compared to now, and botters would make significantly less to the point it would not even be worth having leadership armies for them.
... Most all content that cannot be botted should give AD or RAD. ...
Something that has been mentioned several times by people has been giving an account wide AD limit instead of a character limit.
Re: the 1st point - I think this is an interesting idea. However for that to make any difference the RP that drop would need to be account bound. I personally could live with that, but you then have to look at whether it just shifts costs into the unbound items you can create with that RP (enchants). Needs some analysis certainly.
Re. the 2nd point - This is what EVERYONE is saying. I hope this is listened too. It will get people to focus much more on playing the game too.
Re. the 3rd point - I am not sure that botters would just work around this by having multiple accounts. Multiple accounts transferring AD etc. run by the same bot should be much easier to spot and combat. But you are right, with all solutions you need to see whether there is an easy workaround. I think ultimately you have to ask why are people botting. AD is only worth it if somewhere at the end of the line you play the game (although there seem to be 3rd party people selling AD - no idea how that works so I clearly don't quite understand the economy of this).
I think anything that creates more of balance between those who play a smaller number of characters hard and those who play one supported by the rest is a good thing. An Account wide rAD refinement daily cap of say 100k would be an interesting option imho, but no doubt there could be problems with that too.
I think a poasibility to lock out the army of bots from professions like leadership could be something like accountbound key materials that can only be acquired by ingame activity.
You need to rework leadership. Normal Tasks doesn't generate Rough Astral Diamonds and if you want to start a task to generate RAD you need specific key materials that only drop in Dungeona or Skirmish Chests.
With this system only players can genetate additional RAD and are encouraged to play the game.
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
A bunch of people are saying we're punishing players, but let's put things into perspective about the game as a whole instead of what each individual player sees. We have information you guys may not be aware of in that the amount of people botting in Leadership on Gateway is astounding! They're actually ruining the economy by having so much AD that it hikes everything up, but many aren't aware of this. By removing it, the economy will be more balanced as "illegal" currency would take a hit - yes, we know there are other ways, but one step at a time.
Ok Srumslinger, I can be ok with that. "Illegal" currency would take a hit? ok, fine.
That being said, you know I always ask for foundry matters, so: Do you have information about the amount of people cheating and getting insane amounts of AD with "Fast review" foundry quests? Can you do something about it? I promise I'll not berate you
Thank you very much.
Fast review foundry quests are those with only "one objective to complete" that is near a "reward chest". They are easy to find and I think they are another type of "illegal currency".
NWS-DLXTNXRF2 - Angeline von Stein NWS-DOVA9JIJV - The Lost Seneschal NW-DT3221YUY - The Wildcross Bride
What about the people who appear to have money to burn and can afford to buy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loads of zen that they can convert to astral diamonds why are they not being treated with the same consideration as the people who use bots?
Don't they too wind up with the means to effect and impact the "game economy" as you say?
You want people to stop doing whatever it is they are doing - how about we also remove the ability for people to buy the the diamonds as well... then the only way anyone will have to make their in game currency is the old fashioned way, by playing the game.
Someone whispered to me the more diamonds people can make by alternate methods, the less people have to spend their real money to purchase in diamonds from whoever is selling the zen or whatever it is and that is the real reason behind this... I don't know but since I don't have hours and hours to play this game (some of us have to go to work) I have been using the leadership profession to make some diamonds to allow me to buy armor, weapons and stones to allow me to play without having to die at every turn in the game.
Now that will no longer be an option apparently. I'm not turning this game into a second job just to be able to play at an effective level.
please don't come here with that talk like "this is what you asked for" and how "it's in our interest". there are plenty of better options here and ideas from players ever since the game started. you haven't listened to any of it.
so don't come here trying to sugar coat it. how low can you go man coming here with that talk
It is still better. The ZAX is already at 1,1 million. The day before this change it was around 3 million and slowly climbing as ever. Even if it is a bit annoying that we can't use leadership on the gateway at the moment, success give them right, at the current situation your AD are gaining more worth.
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
Comments
Additionally...with the much-touted mod 7 around the corner...how exactly do you expect us to generate the AD need to upgrade the stronghold without our armies? How are we supposed to come up with the frankly ludicrous costs for our base if we're, say, a guild of 80 people who now pull in 24k RAD per day? Since we cannot and will not go through the hassle of maintaining and ingame army. By the time we get anywhere in mod 7, mod 8 will be here.
I WAS excited for mod 7. Was ready to spend my AD and help my guild. Now I'm just gonna hibernate till mod 8 where all mod 7 gear is antiquated and there is something perhaps worthwhile to spend my severely stunted income on.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
It is just the facts... if inflation goes down... I can't get as much money for the artifact I grind 24/7 to find... so I only get 400k for it... which barely gets you 1/100th of the gmops you need to complete a full set of gear... and that is not an exaggeration... you need at least 20 gmops per enchant... its disgusting how high the requirements are in comparison to the ability to obtain AD... and sending us a cute little "woops" post an hour after they get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on in the forums for making a rash decision without providing countermeasures or redeeming add ons.... saying that they are "thinking about legitimate ways to make ad" no... no... no <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that... you don't crash the hell out of an economy saying "we are thinking about it" when you make a move like this you have to have a plan or the economy melts down faster than a fukushima reactor...
This decision was made rashly... without proper thought or response to its effects.. and I give them no props on it.. no credit... and no respect... That is my opinion alone
1 zen = 500 AD.
That means any price you set something to in zen will be reflected in the games market. Since Zen prices are so insanely margined this means AD costs are just as high. The influx of AD into the game doesn't do anything other than give players the ability to keep up with the ridiculous Zen costs.
As it stands no new normal player can hope to reach the point the old school players are at.
The problem that everyone has is that the fixes and changes that are made to combat bots are felt more by the players than the people who bot. The bots will just use in game scripts to bot leadership. It will be a little more difficult, but still doable. This is more of a game design flaw with the way astral diamonds are acquired than anything. Easily botted things like leadership are the highest income for AD. AD income could be completely removed from leadership and instead give RP that would be of equal value. Many players use their AD for RP now so they would not feel much of a lose. This also would put a hit on bots other source of income, RP. RP value would drop. Players actually using leadership would not have a drop in how fast they got RP compared to now, and botters would make significantly less to the point it would not even be worth having leadership armies for them.
Taking AD away from leadership would require more ways to actually get AD though. This could be added to top end game play. Bots do not do epic dungeons, what would it hurt to give 10k rads per epic dungeon. A person would not be doing more than a few dungeons per day. This would give actual players a way to keep AD income, and not give bots a way to earn AD. Most all content that cannot be botted should give AD or RAD. This rewards actual players and not the bot. Players also do not have unlimited time and cannot run dozens of characters at once to abuse this so the income is limited by play time.
Items that are acquired in dungeons should not all be bound. To stop the market from being flooded with items, there could be a 10% chance to get a non bound version of the item. This would allow people who actually play, not bot, to acquire AD. When salvaging these rarer, non bound versions of the items they should give normal AD and not RAD. Only give RAD for bound items. Giving normal AD would not by any means allow someone to earn much over the RAD limit in AD each day, but would stop items that were unbound for being sold for less than the salvage amount by people who reached the RAD limit. This stops people who are not actually doing the content from making AD off the system.
Players would not complain about actual ways to make AD. There are tons of things that bots cannot do but players do. Those are usually the things that players enjoy the most as well. With more ways to make AD, only botters would complain about leadership no longer giving AD. Changing the ways that AD is earned would work much better than trying to stop bots from botting something that is easily botted.
Something that has been mentioned several times by people has been giving an account wide AD limit instead of a character limit. With the current way that AD is earned through things like leadership that are not actual playing, this would be a horrible idea. If it was capped at something like 100k per account, people that bot would just use more accounts to do the same thing. The only people it would hurt are people that actually play. Most people that play have one account. This is because accountwide things such as mounts can be given to each character. Bots do not care about that so they can have as many accounts as they want.
it doesn't matter what they invision as adequate... because to them if we had 0 income it would be perfect for them... we would just have to pay for money.... and that's what they want.. more dollars in their pocket. at the very least we should be able to make 100k a day minimum and its not currently something efficient to try and manage in a game where there is no new income coming into the game... how the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is anyone supposed to afford gmops and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with this change... I feel like the prices of everything are going to go down so far that I won't stand a chance of gearing up...
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
ALSO
Think of the other side of the coin - what happens if the flow of AD stops?
1. ZAX - remember when you could get Zen for 200AD? Now you have to wait long time to buy them for 500 AD. And thats only because many Zen sellers dont have time, or didnt find out that instead of selling Zen you can buy most wanted items and sell them directly on AH reaching price 540 AD/Zen and thats after AH cut. During events like rp x 2 you can reach 600AD/Zen. When AD overflow goes away Zen should be easy to buy in normal way - maybe not for 200 AD but for sure less than 500 AD and you wont need to wait.
2. 24k AD/day limit as only source of AD per toon - as for now this is few, because of prices of everything. If AD overflow stops your 24k AD will be worth much more, because everything will be cheaper - except of stuff with constant prices, like GMOPs.
3. For the same reason as above the legit farm from in game leadership will be more rewarding - because any AD generated through human-controlled leadership is going to be worth much more.
4. Greater rewards for playing the game - the AD from Salvage/Daily/Skirmishes/Dungeons gets a boost, because with lower prices you can buy much more for that.
5. Cheaper RP, artifacts, mounts... almost everything.
6. People that used leadership to generate more AD will now be able to use gateway to generate other resources that will be sold on AH that can invigorate economy - crafts, dragon eggs, unified elements, cloths. On side note - unified elements price is going to skyrocket from today because they're fixing exploit that allowed to obtain them very easily. Just look at the AH, before patch notes unified elements price was ~15k/piece, but it already jumped to 30k+ because people know their supply is going to be cut drastically.
7. Many more, engage your creativity
Just as example - lets say AD income is now two times smaller. Im not saying this is the amount of botted AD, but just for the sake of argument. What happens to players after sinks soak the leftovers of AD overflow?
Examples. Points are not connected between themselves, its just to help you imagine what happens:
1. ZAX - the Zen/AD ratio is now 1:250-300 AD
2. You can buy for your 24k AD daily limit as much as now for 48k AD
3. Your leadership AD rewards are now worth twice as much
4. Skirmishes runs now bring 2k AD/run, Dungeons hourly gives 6k AD from chest + 6k-10k = 12k-16k AD with free daily key and 2k-6k without key - yeah, still not awesome, but unrewarding dungeons is one of thing that kills PvE and I really hope that "new AD sources" they mentioned in blog will partially fix that.
5. Stack of Peridots now costs 30k-40k AD. You can buy Lostmauth horn for <600k-700k.
6. Professions now require more micromanagment, but bring better rewards for those that dont bot.
SUMMING UP (aka TL:DR):
1. Everything becomes way cheaper
2. Most people that used leadership through gateway in legit way will STILL be able to afford more things, because they will either move to other profession, or they will change their system to set tasks in game and with point 1 they will be able to purchase more for the same rewards.
Also, please look from wider perspective before judging my post.
Are there any plans to introduce alternative, in-game ways for regular workforce people with only a moderate workday time window to get AD (via Leadership or otherwise)?
Like e.g.
- adding AD to quest rewards
- giving the option to queue quest orders in the LShip window
- adding or changing standard non-rare tasks so that mid-level AD minting is compatible with a normal 8h+ workday
- ...
If not, I foresee some changes to the economy indeed:
- AH prices will fall
- AD sink items will either become prohibitively expensive for many or will have to be lowered
- the ZAX backlog will vanish
- the ZEN-AD-rate will drop due to the reduced influx and resulting relative scarcity of AD
- ZEN sales will probably go down, as people subjectively feel they get less bang for their buck
- ...
...so maybe you successfully shot your own foot.
110% agreed with this post.
You are forgetting in-game leadership botting. It will increase. Professional botters will not bother.
If they really wanted to fight botters they should remove AD from leadership and add AD behind a "play-wall". It was suggested again and again that AD should be added as a reward for doing daily quests and dungeon runs (not just during dungeon delve time and as a daily quest). Actual playing is difficult to automate.
I doubt that RP will be getting cheaper. The amount of RP items may now decrease while demand stays the same. Prices could go up.
Doing leadership in-game is a pain and takes much longer than using the gateway. Therefore it'll probably gonna hurt legit players way more than professional botters.
That's not true.
1) GMOP price will stay the same.
2) Ward prices will stay the same.
3) AD requirements for Strongholds will stay the same.
4) AD costs for boons etc. will stay the same.
The problem is that the step you have announced will not fix it.
I should add you now have 3 threads discussing this same issue (if not more that I haven't seen so apologies for my repeating myself).
1. This does not stop botting in game. Yes, botting in game is slower, but since it is a bot after all, I can't see how the person running the bot cares.
2. This doesn't punish botting or prevent it long term. Introducing a capcha to the gateway would be fine, with a forced relog every 2h or so. Banning, suspending anyone who runs bots would do help a long way too. There are many legit players who use leadership due to lack of alternatives and have invested time and money to get there.
3. You need to provide alternatives. Others have said it better. The rewards in game that aren't bottable (e.g. skill nodes) need to be looked at. At present people run through dungeons without even opening chests etc. as there's nothing in there worth having.
Please consider merging things into one thread to discuss this issue
As a guy who can only afford to play around 2 hours every other day ingame , logging into the gateway from the toilet/work/any other small chance I get is what has been keeping me hooked and gave me a feeling of progression.
Now , after spending a month of efforts to buy character slots& level around 11 leadership characters I really dont feel like spending any more time with this game.This same thing will happen again in the future.
I've been an active promoter of your game and have hooked and brought many friends& players.
I've always said good things about NW and encouraged my friends to support you with money.
I've downvoted negative reviews of NW and upvoted positive ones every chance I had.
No more!If you are reading this do not play this game and most certainly dont spend real money on it you will just get scammed!
And just remembered botting will use professions like tailoring and artifacting too. Will this be removed in future updates?
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
1. I mentioned GMOPs
2. You mean Coal/Prot wards? They are going to be cheaper. Not from $ perspective, but AD flow never impacted that. They are going to cost less in AD on AH/through Zax, though.
3 + 4 - This is true, but cost of these is minimal in toon development (at least 4, I cant check 3 because my preview wont load for me, but I guess it doesnt cost hundreds of k).
I will also add another point: 5. Shirts/Pants/jewels price will drop, but not as much as everything else, because of constant AD cost.
The overall cost of toon development will be much smaller, though and thats my main point.
I think 90% income from gateway leadership is very, very extreme for any human-controlled activity. And saying "people" as assumption that everybody, or even majority of playerbase was relying on gateway leadership as their only AD source is exaggeration, in my opinion.
They will bother, because gateway botting is a lot faster and more effective, than in-game botting. Also, professional botters are 1 thing and amateur botters are other thing - the gateway bot is practically public, or at least way more accessible than any in-game bot. This will not remove AD botting completely, but hinder it quite much.
Most of us WOULD support this change, if they did what you say and make a new economy.. one that supports players that play the game by rewarding them with things they need.... however they won't do this because this change wasn't made to hurt bots... like salvaging nerfs.. dungeon drop nerfs and so on... the ways to make AD have been stripped from this game while the prices of making gear have gotten higher and higher... its almost like they want everyone in game to be poor... that is because they do... because then you are more likely to buy what you want with money...
So to reiterate the reason we are mad is not because they tried to save the economy by fighting bots.. its because they are killing bots to ruin the economy to force people to fess up more dollars or get out...
Re: the 1st point - I think this is an interesting idea. However for that to make any difference the RP that drop would need to be account bound. I personally could live with that, but you then have to look at whether it just shifts costs into the unbound items you can create with that RP (enchants). Needs some analysis certainly.
Re. the 2nd point - This is what EVERYONE is saying. I hope this is listened too. It will get people to focus much more on playing the game too.
Re. the 3rd point - I am not sure that botters would just work around this by having multiple accounts. Multiple accounts transferring AD etc. run by the same bot should be much easier to spot and combat. But you are right, with all solutions you need to see whether there is an easy workaround. I think ultimately you have to ask why are people botting. AD is only worth it if somewhere at the end of the line you play the game (although there seem to be 3rd party people selling AD - no idea how that works so I clearly don't quite understand the economy of this).
I think anything that creates more of balance between those who play a smaller number of characters hard and those who play one supported by the rest is a good thing. An Account wide rAD refinement daily cap of say 100k would be an interesting option imho, but no doubt there could be problems with that too.
You need to rework leadership. Normal Tasks doesn't generate Rough Astral Diamonds and if you want to start a task to generate RAD you need specific key materials that only drop in Dungeona or Skirmish Chests.
With this system only players can genetate additional RAD and are encouraged to play the game.
Ok Srumslinger, I can be ok with that. "Illegal" currency would take a hit? ok, fine.
That being said, you know I always ask for foundry matters, so: Do you have information about the amount of people cheating and getting insane amounts of AD with "Fast review" foundry quests? Can you do something about it? I promise I'll not berate you
Thank you very much.
Fast review foundry quests are those with only "one objective to complete" that is near a "reward chest". They are easy to find and I think they are another type of "illegal currency".
NWS-DOVA9JIJV - The Lost Seneschal
NW-DT3221YUY - The Wildcross Bride
Foundry Grand Master.
Don't they too wind up with the means to effect and impact the "game economy" as you say?
You want people to stop doing whatever it is they are doing - how about we also remove the ability for people to buy the the diamonds as well... then the only way anyone will have to make their in game currency is the old fashioned way, by playing the game.
Someone whispered to me the more diamonds people can make by alternate methods, the less people have to spend their real money to purchase in diamonds from whoever is selling the zen or whatever it is and that is the real reason behind this... I don't know but since I don't have hours and hours to play this game (some of us have to go to work) I have been using the leadership profession to make some diamonds to allow me to buy armor, weapons and stones to allow me to play without having to die at every turn in the game.
Now that will no longer be an option apparently. I'm not turning this game into a second job just to be able to play at an effective level.
It is still better. The ZAX is already at 1,1 million. The day before this change it was around 3 million and slowly climbing as ever. Even if it is a bit annoying that we can't use leadership on the gateway at the moment, success give them right, at the current situation your AD are gaining more worth.