I really tied on this you know? Could you stop this Bs?
" a player to press one button and hit through every defense+dodge mechanic+unstoppable mechanic of another class."
Only Gwf and sw has the Dodge problem, not working on 6 other classes. And its not a easy button stuff, far more difficult than you think to calculate time while you smashing your keyboard. Seriously, is gwf not smashing keyboard and profit class?
Fail to use power to against it, is not my problem. Even gwf players post in this thread said they can do it.
So your logic is "it is broken because i can't avoid it?"
I never judge ppl by item level, but even for 2600 gwf cannot be easily 1 shotted from 2600 tr.
Because the power they have cannot have 60k crit even with first strike.
Remember, Tr's fighting style is not continue output damage like you, its designed to do like this way. You cant expect a game that every class standing there smashing keyboard to each other till one of them died.
I'm tired to you know.
"Only GWFs and Sws have the dodge problem".
And in fact, we are discussing SW andf GWF. You saying "but CW can dodge!!" is nonsense cause yes, we're discussing the fact that GWF and SW shift mechanic should affect SE and not get pierced by it as if it's nothing.
Did you guys complained when Roar was piercing your dodge and ITC mechanic? Yes. A lot. It's the same. Exact same thing.
No, GWF is not smash keyboard and profit class. You know why? Basic lesson of PvP mechanic.
GWF enters fight. Has no real damage until he goes unstoppable. Must stay in range and hit enemy to build 10 stacks in 4-8 seconds. After that can rotate but:
Must aim his hits
Must time his hits
Must dose sprint to both close gap and defend
IF THE GWF, READ CAREFULLY, FAILS AT USING IBS/RS/SURE STRIKE IN RANGE, HIS HITS MISS AND GO ON COOLDOWN (EXCEPT SURE STRIKE). IF THE GWF HITS WHEN THE ENEMY IS DODGING, OR FAILS AT TIMING HIS POWERS RIGHT, HE DEALS ZERO DAMAGE. ZERO. NADA. IN THE MEANWHILE, HE GETS DAMAGE FROM YOU SPAMMING AT WILL WITH PASSIVE PIERCING DAMAGE FROM RANGE.
WHEN YOU GO STEALTH, THE GWF MUST PREDICT WHERE YOU ARE WHILE YOU PACEFULLY KEEP HITTING HIM FROM STEALTH AND RANGE.
Button smashing button? You know nothing about the class.
Also: meet in game/ make a video, as i said, of you with a GWF, or one of the guys you say claimed they used avalanche/leap to dodge SE, doing it DURING A REAL BATTLE/ FIGHT.
Cause all i see are words vs facts.
Also, attacks are meant to be dodged through DODGE MECHANICS. Are you asked to slot a useless power to use it as a dodge, or time your daily with the enemy daily to survive a piercing hit? No. You use your dodge.
But you ask to GWFs to use a power, or a daily, WITH THE SOLE PURPOSE TO DODGE A PIERCING DAILY.
I will not reply to you or other similar posts anymore cause you guys have not the slightest sense of balance, you also talk about other players trying to get "button smashing mechanics" when we are asking to have a working dodge to have a chance to TIME our dodge to avoid a big hit like any other class does, while you are asking to keep a mechanic that allows you to press one button and hit 100% through our dodge mechanic.
Really, it's not funny anymore, even other TRs told you SE needs a fix and is unfair vs GWF/SW. Won't reply to your nonsense anymore.
This is really <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> post
"You saying "but CW can dodge!!" is nonsense"
I didn't said this, you must be really tired.
Ofc fail to attack on opponent does 0 damage.
So you are saying if Tr fail to smoking bomb, doze or perfect timing ITC don't have a cool down?
And failed smoking bomb, doze, ITC deal 0 damage as well. Sounds like we are auto aiming
Because you played smashing keyboard too much, you forget what you said is basic for every other class
Again Spamming Tos maybe a problem 2 weeks ago since SO didn't get nerf, but no one using SO now since we switching to first strike
This feat is useless as well in most situation, i really don't understand your problem. I use 1 useless daily and 1 useless class feat to trade your 1 useless encounter
And you still consider this is not fair?
I don't really understand your kind of players in PvP. Refuse to change encounter, refuse to learn, refuse to adapt and crying all day, and then ask a nerf.
I defend this only because this kind of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and without brain activity post will really lead a nerf. Then no Tr has the possibility to win a gwf with equal gears.
The average player does around 6 clicks per second or 1 click per 0.167s. Now a GWF needs to click Mighty Leap twice (target+execute) to dodge SE. That's 0.334s, we also have to take into account 2 more factors:
1) ping which can go from as low as 15ms (if you're local) to as much as 350ms (not counting those above as I dunno who'd play with ping higher than that), I myself have ~200ms ping
2) reaction time. This can be both sight and auditory reaction time. You can test yourself here: http://cognitivefun.net/test/1 http://cognitivefun.net/test/16
I myself have scored ~250ms sight reaction time and ~100ms auditory reaction time.
So in perfect conditions I spend a minimum of 0.334+0.2+0.1= 0.63s to react to a Shocking Execution. And since SE can be performed in 1s that's rarely enough. TR on the other hand can be a slug and still hit the GWF 100% of the time unless he's running the only anti-SE build (which makes the GWF an useless clown if he were to encounter another class in the game, domination and GG are team games afterall) and has an incredible reaction time, ping and whatnot.
And I won't even consider Avalanche of Steel. TR can cancel SE with dodge and GWF can't cancel AoS.
And you do realize that SW has 0 chance to avoid SE, right?
So lemme get this straight, you want a cheesy mechanic that can easily destroy 2 classes with zero effort and put everyone else on edge (as to not waste that one last dodge just for the sake of dodging SE)? And start bashing ppl for even suggesting SE mitigation with sprint/shadow slip/unstoppable? Just how greedy can you seriously be?
As long as the base damage is increased on par or more to the other hard hitting dailies, ice knife crescendo savageadv i think its fair to make it not deal piercing damage. I said more because the listed dailies have a strong cc effect attached to it.
In the end except for deflect will still hit for 50k as all the other mentioned dailies
As long as the base damage is increased on par or more to the other hard hitting dailies, ice knife crescendo savageadv i think its fair to make it not deal piercing damage. I said more because the listed dailies have a strong cc effect attached to it.
In the end except for deflect will still hit for 50k as all the other mentioned dailies
There are probably a few options but this is certainly one that sounds reasonable to me.
I defend this only because this kind of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and without brain activity post will really lead a nerf. Then no Tr has the possibility to win a gwf with equal gears.
Let's use your own post in response to that:
I don't really understand your kind of players in PvP. Refuse to change encounter, refuse to learn, refuse to adapt and crying all day
and refuse to learn to play.
The point is, there is no amount of adaptation that will allow an SW to defend against this. And the effort required by a GWF to defend against SE exceeds the effort required to use SE, which is a bad principle for a game like this; it should not be more difficult to defend against such a devastating attack than it is to land it.
You're wasting your time. Logic does not work with him.
Wish he could re-read what he writes. Saying it's OK for SE do ignore SW/gwf dodge mechanic, asking to keep a 'press button with no need to time your hit' mechanic, and accusing the ones who ask just for a working dodge, to be 'keyboard smash lovers'.
It's straw man arguments and reversed logic. I won't waste my time with him more than this. Normal players understand the issue and that's enough.
My suggestion is, quite simple, make dr on SW/gwf shift, on a separate layer, unpierceable and undebuffable. Like CW shield.
Make dr from unstoppable debuffable but unpierceable.
Would allow those 2 classes to have a shift mechanic that counts and eradicate the problem of undodgeable hits.
Would make timing count for everyone and still reward those who have skills to time their hits, while punishing those who hit a dodging gwf/SW or an unstoppable gwf.
Pretty simple imho.
I really tied on this you know? Could you stop this Bs?
" a player to press one button and hit through every defense+dodge mechanic+unstoppable mechanic of another class."
Only Gwf and sw has the Dodge problem, not working on 6 other classes. And its not a easy button stuff, far more difficult than you think to calculate time while you smashing your keyboard. Seriously, is gwf not smashing keyboard and profit class?
Fail to use power to against it, is not my problem. Even gwf players post in this thread said they can do it.
So your logic is "it is broken because i can't avoid it?"
I never judge ppl by item level, but even for 2600 gwf cannot be easily 1 shotted from 2600 tr.
Because the power they have cannot have 60k crit even with first strike.
Remember, Tr's fighting style is not continue output damage like you, its designed to do like this way. You cant expect a game that every class standing there smashing keyboard to each other till one of them died.
I'm tired to you know.
"Only GWFs and Sws have the dodge problem".
And in fact, we are discussing SW andf GWF. You saying "but CW can dodge!!" is nonsense cause yes, we're discussing the fact that GWF and SW shift mechanic should affect SE and not get pierced by it as if it's nothing.
Did you guys complained when Roar was piercing your dodge and ITC mechanic? Yes. A lot. It's the same. Exact same thing.
No, GWF is not smash keyboard and profit class. You know why? Basic lesson of PvP mechanic.
GWF enters fight. Has no real damage until he goes unstoppable. Must stay in range and hit enemy to build 10 stacks in 4-8 seconds. After that can rotate but:
Must aim his hits
Must time his hits
Must dose sprint to both close gap and defend
IF THE GWF, READ CAREFULLY, FAILS AT USING IBS/RS/SURE STRIKE IN RANGE, HIS HITS MISS AND GO ON COOLDOWN (EXCEPT SURE STRIKE). IF THE GWF HITS WHEN THE ENEMY IS DODGING, OR FAILS AT TIMING HIS POWERS RIGHT, HE DEALS ZERO DAMAGE. ZERO. NADA. IN THE MEANWHILE, HE GETS DAMAGE FROM YOU SPAMMING AT WILL WITH PASSIVE PIERCING DAMAGE FROM RANGE.
WHEN YOU GO STEALTH, THE GWF MUST PREDICT WHERE YOU ARE WHILE YOU PACEFULLY KEEP HITTING HIM FROM STEALTH AND RANGE.
Button smashing button? You know nothing about the class.
Also: meet in game/ make a video, as i said, of you with a GWF, or one of the guys you say claimed they used avalanche/leap to dodge SE, doing it DURING A REAL BATTLE/ FIGHT.
Cause all i see are words vs facts.
Also, attacks are meant to be dodged through DODGE MECHANICS. Are you asked to slot a useless power to use it as a dodge, or time your daily with the enemy daily to survive a piercing hit? No. You use your dodge.
But you ask to GWFs to use a power, or a daily, WITH THE SOLE PURPOSE TO DODGE A PIERCING DAILY.
I will not reply to you or other similar posts anymore cause you guys have not the slightest sense of balance, you also talk about other players trying to get "button smashing mechanics" when we are asking to have a working dodge to have a chance to TIME our dodge to avoid a big hit like any other class does, while you are asking to keep a mechanic that allows you to press one button and hit 100% through our dodge mechanic.
Really, it's not funny anymore, even other TRs told you SE needs a fix and is unfair vs GWF/SW. Won't reply to your nonsense anymore.
This is really <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> post
"You saying "but CW can dodge!!" is nonsense"
I didn't said this, you must be really tired.
Ofc fail to attack on opponent does 0 damage.
So you are saying if Tr fail to smoking bomb, doze or perfect timing ITC don't have a cool down?
And failed smoking bomb, doze, ITC deal 0 damage as well. Sounds like we are auto aiming
Because you played smashing keyboard too much, you forget what you said is basic for every other class
Again Spamming Tos maybe a problem 2 weeks ago since SO didn't get nerf, but no one using SO now since we switching to first strike
This feat is useless as well in most situation, i really don't understand your problem. I use 1 useless daily and 1 useless class feat to trade your 1 useless encounter
And you still consider this is not fair?
I don't really understand your kind of players in PvP. Refuse to change encounter, refuse to learn, refuse to adapt and crying all day, and then ask a nerf.
I defend this only because this kind of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and without brain activity post will really lead a nerf. Then no Tr has the possibility to win a gwf with equal gears.
The average player does around 6 clicks per second or 1 click per 0.167s. Now a GWF needs to click Mighty Leap twice (target+execute) to dodge SE. That's 0.334s, we also have to take into account 2 more factors:
1) ping which can go from as low as 15ms (if you're local) to as much as 350ms (not counting those above as I dunno who'd play with ping higher than that), I myself have ~200ms ping
2) reaction time. This can be both sight and auditory reaction time. You can test yourself here: http://cognitivefun.net/test/1 http://cognitivefun.net/test/16
I myself have scored ~250ms sight reaction time and ~100ms auditory reaction time.
So in perfect conditions I spend a minimum of 0.334+0.2+0.1= 0.63s to react to a Shocking Execution. And since SE can be performed in 1s that's rarely enough. TR on the other hand can be a slug and still hit the GWF 100% of the time unless he's running the only anti-SE build (which makes the GWF an useless clown if he were to encounter another class in the game, domination and GG are team games afterall) and has an incredible reaction time, ping and whatnot.
And I won't even consider Avalanche of Steel. TR can cancel SE with dodge and GWF can't cancel AoS.
And you do realize that SW has 0 chance to avoid SE, right?
So lemme get this straight, you want a cheesy mechanic that can easily destroy 2 classes with zero effort and put everyone else on edge (as to not waste that one last dodge just for the sake of dodging SE)? And start bashing ppl for even suggesting SE mitigation with sprint/shadow slip/unstoppable? Just how greedy can you seriously be?
Cw can ice knife you 50k+-60k+ with strong cc.
Then another 2 combination encounters, or ice ray. You died.
Gf, crescendo first, then 2 combination encounters you will die as well and no possible chance to run.
Hr, this time for sw only. Root/stun/disrupt build.
No high number but you cant even press any key for 8 seconds and died
But those are acceptable, se is not. And you call this is for balance.
Tr, like i said, you can't be 1 shotted by equal geard Tr. Then after that, you at least have possibility to run away. Cus no cc attach on it.
You will be 1 shotted by Tr only because you don't have enough HP
My ping is 300-350. So if i fight with a gwf with less latency i must fail no matter what?
No, CW can't hit me for 50k+. Even the best geared CWs crit me for <40k if I don't dodge it. And there's also deflect and not permanent 100% crit rate. Whereas you can see in this thread how much can some TRs hit for (124k, ftw) and there's 2 classes that have no reliable defenses against that. That's what this thread is about.
Crescendo? Same as Ice Knife but can only be used in melee. Too easy to avoid.
You CAN get 1 shotted by equal geared TRs. Just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> look at romanporter's screenshot. Even BiS GWF and SW gets 1 shot by that. And even low geared TRs are capable of 55k+ back-to-back SEs.
"My ping is 300-350. So if i fight with a gwf with less latency i must fail no matter what?" Then why should a GWF or SW fail no matter what against TR even with a flawless ping? I don't even... Such a hypocrite.
SE can effortlessly kill SWs and GWFs and there are still people defending it? Are you guys really that majorly stupid?
thats what i am sayin too, SE is problably their only source of dealing damage, not necesarly to a gwf or a sw, but also on a DC or other classes.
what i would like is that a nerf on his surviability should be done, and also some fixes for what is broken ....
its a bit skilles when you go at that point and you are perma immune to damage/cc .
Well, I did suggest 2 options: remove piercing from SE OR let GWFs and SWs mitigate SE damage with their mechanics. Yet instead of looking for a compromise (2nd suggestion is a valid compromise, imho) we see scrub TRs blindly defending SE. I don't get em.
thats what i am sayin too, SE is problably their only source of dealing damage, not necesarly to a gwf or a sw, but also on a DC or other classes.
Oh, there are other sources of damage. It's just that using any other source of damage is:
(1) lower average damage -- slower kills, or even possibility of not being able to overcome self-heals
(2) more risk -- need to try a lot more higher damage powers, have to mix in more non-survival encounters, need to try more melee, resulting in more exposure
(3) less effective node clearing, contesting
what i would like is that a nerf on his surviability should be done, and also some fixes for what is broken ....
its a bit skilles when you go at that point and you are perma immune to damage/cc.
Since we're comparing the TR to GWFs, let's see what happens if we:
(1) totally remove the SO piercing damage
(2) fix SE daily
(3) nerf WoE damage boosts (applies to all classes)
The Sabo TR (since Sabos are absolute majority in PvP) can't deal sufficient damage from ranged/stealthed CoS spamming. With SE also properly balanced the spam CoS from stealth until full AP, and then SE also loses a lot of meaning.
Imagine the mod4 TR which was at the game's all-time low-point, and then imagine the non-majority permastealth build in that mod4. Weak, weak CoS shots... SE not hitting too hard... somewhat capable node-troller but hard-pressed to kill something. That's what the Sabo path should be nerfed down to → highest survivability = lowest damage. Good node troller, but lousy node clearer.
When you subsequently lower the damage, then what happens is if a TR really wants to take a GWF down, it needs to become more aggressive, and take more risks, getting in close to land stuff like Dazing Strike, attacking when the GWF is CCd, and then have to anticipate the Unstoppable timing to run away, or otherwise, the level of damage GWFs are currently at, a few lucky shots in with stuff like FLS and it could be game over.
In other words, when the lame-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> piercing stuff, as well as all the freebie damage from 1-min WoE artifact spamming and stuff are gone or suppressed, then the TR, whatever build it is, needs to do it the "old-fashioned" way, landing CCs to buy safety time, attacking when GWF is CCd, running when Unstoppable fires up, finding the crucial time to attempt ITC-DF strikes, and of course ALL of this involves certain amount of risk by having to get in closer to hit with harder hitting powers than just CoS spamming->full AP->SE spamming.
When the ridiculous stuff is fixed, then the survivability is naturally fixed as well. That, and the TR players' perception also needs to change -- as us TRs have been taking it for granted this "freebie, safe attack from stealth is the only way we can fight." Having stayed away from Sabos since mod5 I can say TRs like us Scoundrels or Executioners have largely woken up from that mentality, but it still persists with Sabo players.
Yes, for us non-Sabos a BiS GWF is extremely difficult to take down and always a challenge. A little bit off with our timing and it's literally over in a matter of seconds, so every attack we try does some damage, and every time we do it we take risks, try our best to contain that risk, and when we succeed we pressure the GWF to run, or even take him down, but if we fail, then we die. Just like any class should. We can't contest a node against 6~7 people in GG like Sabos could, and its more like maybe 3~4 people at most. Every attack, every tactic we try holds risks which have opportunities for the opponent to try and retaliate, and especially, our stealth is now shortest in the history of NW TRs, unlike how Sabos are basically all permas.
Sabo players? They've been spoiled so much from the last two mods with so much lazy-arsh tactics that most TRs that started from mod5 don't even know what a jump-DF is, or how much we old TRs used to try to master it in the olden days. They're accustomed to taking zero risks and yet reaping fruits of high damage, as well as the general tactics being so lazy that it basically consists of throwing CoS around, staying in permamode, and then waiting out for 100% AP to spam SE every time available. Usually don't even use WoE, and more likely use SigDiv for 1-min or less interval SE spams.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Yes, for us non-Sabos a BiS GWF is extremely difficult to take down and always a challenge. A little bit off with our timing and it's literally over in a matter of seconds, so every attack we try does some damage, and every time we do it we take risks, try our best to contain that risk, and when we succeed we pressure the GWF to run, or even take him down, but if we fail, then we die. Just like any class should. We can't contest a node against 6~7 people in GG like Sabos could, and its more like maybe 3~4 people at most. Every attack, every tactic we try holds risks which have opportunities for the opponent to try and retaliate, and especially, our stealth is now shortest in the history of NW TRs, unlike how Sabos are basically all permas.
While my WK Scoundrel is not fighting against BIS anything, reading this reminded me how I feel every time I feel like I finally have a GWF hp within kill range, and then unstoppable pops, and my heart sinks. The feeling is much worse with pallys. LOL
Agree though. Permastealth should have the lowest damage output of 3 paths, and it could still be played well in that. I remember how impossible it was to try to take back a node with talented players like Dinter sitting on it in mod 4.
Then he is not Sab Tr.
...
The damage log indicated you fall first, then nuKe number pop up.
You looked at the damage log, and then managed to miss the part where it said "shadowy opportunity" just underneath shocking execution?
Miss SO? SO is never be a problem after nerf.
The problem is the order of this logs and the initial damage. Like i said, this post is meanless after SO nerf.
[Error] You have fallen in battle
(~Soulforge time~receive help)
[Comb log] 124056
[SO]4936
Let's remove 4936 damage away. But the nuke number is the first hit.
It's self explained.
Be realistic, if 3.2 TR can hit 124k from full HP, imagine how many damage 4.2 can hit
I d like to watch some posts complaint about 200K SE damage from 4.2 TR.
Better Photoshop some. I can provide technical support.
Tr, like i said, you can't be 1 shotted by equal geard Tr. Then after that, you at least have possibility to run away. Cus no cc attach on it.
You will be 1 shotted by Tr only because you don't have enough HP
Yes TR can 1 shot. Not you but others can.
I show you again. Don't pretend to be blind potato
[img][/img]
So you say 123k HP that i have it's no enough??? When most ppl running 95-105k HP.
And he was even not equal geard. 3.5 vs 4.2
Then he is not Sab Tr.
This kind of damage from 3.5 Sab is impossible. Even he invest all his point to str, 16-18Dex with t.vorpal(assume no bug)
First strike is not enough. He need to use executioner path, and yout HP is not full.
The damage log indicated you fall first, then nuKe number pop up.
Because executioner hit you 60% more when you less than 30% HP.
If a 3.5 Tr 1 shot your 4k+ gwf from full without broken wheel or you haven't been debuffed . Then it is a problem.
And i vote to remove.
But hey, ask Tr forum maybe?
Saying that the TR isn't a saboteur.
However, as macjae says, if you look at the screenshot you see "Shadowy Opportunity" pop up on the line right below, which clearly indicates the TR /is/ a Sab TR. Read please.
At this stage TR is kind of hard to balance without reworking it entirely. The permastealth FOTM build is far too strong in the wrong ways, and far too weak in the places it should be strong in. TRs should deal more consistent damage rather than having to completely rely on a daily for damage, and should also have far more vulnerability frames like every other class in the game.
Shocking Execution is wrong as a concept in general, with the massive piercing damage it does. Yes, it's dodgeable for most classes, and even in that case it's still a cheesy mechanic, because of how much immunity a TR has. More consistent damage with less burst damage would be better across the board for all TR trees. For classes that don't have dodges, they will generally eventually lose to a TR unless they massively outskill or outgear the TR because SE deals a shitload of damage that can be difficult to outheal since you can't really do consistent damage to lifesteal back.
Additionally, SE coupled with the massive amount of immunity frames a TR has is difficult or impossible to counter for a lot of classes 1v1, unless the TR makes a major mistake (even then, free restealth from daily or run offnode). This is also due to recovery having no diminishing returns and no cap, which allows for massive RSI stacking to reduce cooldowns of ITC etc., which means TRs can make mistakes and still be able to get back into stealth. A standard BiS build TR has roughly 4-5 seconds of ITC downtime or less. Also the ability to spam dailies even with a DC arti, which will only get worse next mod, is increased by recovery stacking.
SE needs to respect DR. The base damage is still fairly high, but should probably be increased to compensate for tenacity and DR. A 60k SE on CW with no shield, HR, TR or SW (not sprinting), will be reduced to about 21.6k damage (tenacity DR + tenacity crit DR), and that's on a target whose DR is mitigated to 0. On a target with negation, that damage becomes 15.1k. On a sprinting SW, that becomes 10k. Fine, that's a bit too low. I think a base damage buff of about 40-66% should be fine, as a 40% damage boost will bring SE to 30k on low DR classes, and 20k on a sprinting SW. SE could also be buffed to match its name, i.e. a similar effect to GF's Anvil of Doom. Remove the double usage at a certain HP %, and change it to something along the lines of "When your target has less than 40% HP, the damage of Shocking Execution is doubled".
There's a lot more buffs and nerfs TRs could receive i.e. charge refill time (hard cooldown, no matter how much RSI you stack it'll always have a minimum of this time, look at HR skills for example) for ITC of 15 seconds at least or a change to ITC (remove deflect), a buff to base damage of certain skills, but also the addition of some sort of stealth reveal on Cloud of Steel. But that's for a different topic, really.
All in all, make SE respect DR but buff the base damage otherwise it'll just become another useless tool.
And make dr from gwf/SW on a separate layer cause else it's not even close to a dodge.
Gwfs/ sws get cc immunity on shift, and 30% dr that can be debuffed and, like with shocking execution, pierced entirely.
So you sprint, time your shift, and in the end you pretty much only get cc immunity while still taking pretty much the same damage. Shocking execution hits you the same and only needs the TR to press one button.
Plus sprint is delayed and does not grant cc immunity in the initial frames.
I would AT LEAST make the dr from SW/ gwf shift work like CW shield (separate layer) and sprint be more responsive.
Now timing your shift would matter.
Would also make SE respect tenacity. Cause SE is doubled if you hit an opponent under 30% hp. Double daily (ap refill). So it must deal less damage cause you are not supposed to shoot it randomly and benefit, but rather drain your target hp and then execute him, and you get double daily if you use some brain, which is a great benefit.
'But sabo damage is low'. Isn't it the survivability path? You get amazing survivabilty and semi-perma stealth+itc in a mi/sabo build. The counter should be, you deal low damage. For more damage, you go executioner.
And make dr from gwf/SW on a separate layer cause else it's not even close to a dodge.
Gwfs/ sws get cc immunity on shift, and 30% dr that can be debuffed and, like with shocking execution, pierced entirely.
So you sprint, time your shift, and in the end you pretty much only get cc immunity while still taking pretty much the same damage. Shocking execution hits you the same and only needs the TR to press one button.
Plus sprint is delayed and does not grant cc immunity in the initial frames.
I would AT LEAST make the dr from SW/ gwf shift work like CW shield (separate layer) and sprint be more responsive.
Now timing your shift would matter.
Would also make SE respect tenacity. Cause SE is doubled if you hit an opponent under 30% hp. Double daily (ap refill). So it must deal less damage cause you are not supposed to shoot it randomly and benefit, but rather drain your target hp and then execute him, and you get double daily if you use some brain, which is a great benefit.
'But sabo damage is low'. Isn't it the survivability path? You get amazing survivabilty and semi-perma stealth+itc in a mi/sabo build. The counter should be, you deal low damage. For more damage, you go executioner.
Putting GWF/SW sprint on a different layer is kind of iffy though, because it makes it multiplicative rather than additive, which in turn makes it a bit weaker. Sprint is already unmitigatible except by hard RI (i.e. mark and bronzewood), which would be fine if piercing damage actually respected tenacity/DR.
Then he is not Sab Tr.
...
The damage log indicated you fall first, then nuKe number pop up.
You looked at the damage log, and then managed to miss the part where it said "shadowy opportunity" just underneath shocking execution?
Miss SO? SO is never be a problem after nerf.
The problem is the order of this logs and the initial damage. Like i said, this post is meanless after SO nerf.
[Error] You have fallen in battle
(~Soulforge time~receive help)
[Comb log] 124056
[SO]4936
Let's remove 4936 damage away. But the nuke number is the first hit.
It's self explained.
Be realistic, if 3.2 TR can hit 124k from full HP, imagine how many damage 4.2 can hit
I d like to watch some posts complaint about 200K SE damage from 4.2 TR.
Better Photoshop some. I can provide technical support.
Tr, like i said, you can't be 1 shotted by equal geard Tr. Then after that, you at least have possibility to run away. Cus no cc attach on it.
You will be 1 shotted by Tr only because you don't have enough HP
Yes TR can 1 shot. Not you but others can.
I show you again. Don't pretend to be blind potato
[img][/img]
So you say 123k HP that i have it's no enough??? When most ppl running 95-105k HP.
And he was even not equal geard. 3.5 vs 4.2
Then he is not Sab Tr.
This kind of damage from 3.5 Sab is impossible. Even he invest all his point to str, 16-18Dex with t.vorpal(assume no bug)
First strike is not enough. He need to use executioner path, and yout HP is not full.
The damage log indicated you fall first, then nuKe number pop up.
Because executioner hit you 60% more when you less than 30% HP.
If a 3.5 Tr 1 shot your 4k+ gwf from full without broken wheel or you haven't been debuffed . Then it is a problem.
And i vote to remove.
But hey, ask Tr forum maybe?
Saying that the TR isn't a saboteur.
However, as macjae says, if you look at the screenshot you see "Shadowy Opportunity" pop up on the line right below, which clearly indicates the TR /is/ a Sab TR. Read please.
At this stage TR is kind of hard to balance without reworking it entirely. The permastealth FOTM build is far too strong in the wrong ways, and far too weak in the places it should be strong in. TRs should deal more consistent damage rather than having to completely rely on a daily for damage, and should also have far more vulnerability frames like every other class in the game.
Shocking Execution is wrong as a concept in general, with the massive piercing damage it does. Yes, it's dodgeable for most classes, and even in that case it's still a cheesy mechanic, because of how much immunity a TR has. More consistent damage with less burst damage would be better across the board for all TR trees. For classes that don't have dodges, they will generally eventually lose to a TR unless they massively outskill or outgear the TR because SE deals a shitload of damage that can be difficult to outheal since you can't really do consistent damage to lifesteal back.
Additionally, SE coupled with the massive amount of immunity frames a TR has is difficult or impossible to counter for a lot of classes 1v1, unless the TR makes a major mistake (even then, free restealth from daily or run offnode). This is also due to recovery having no diminishing returns and no cap, which allows for massive RSI stacking to reduce cooldowns of ITC etc., which means TRs can make mistakes and still be able to get back into stealth. A standard BiS build TR has roughly 4-5 seconds of ITC downtime or less. Also the ability to spam dailies even with a DC arti, which will only get worse next mod, is increased by recovery stacking.
SE needs to respect DR. The base damage is still fairly high, but should probably be increased to compensate for tenacity and DR. A 60k SE on CW with no shield, HR, TR or SW (not sprinting), will be reduced to about 21.6k damage (tenacity DR + tenacity crit DR), and that's on a target whose DR is mitigated to 0. On a target with negation, that damage becomes 15.1k. On a sprinting SW, that becomes 10k. Fine, that's a bit too low. I think a base damage buff of about 40-66% should be fine, as a 40% damage boost will bring SE to 30k on low DR classes, and 20k on a sprinting SW. SE could also be buffed to match its name, i.e. a similar effect to GF's Anvil of Doom. Remove the double usage at a certain HP %, and change it to something along the lines of "When your target has less than 40% HP, the damage of Shocking Execution is doubled".
There's a lot more buffs and nerfs TRs could receive i.e. charge refill time (hard cooldown, no matter how much RSI you stack it'll always have a minimum of this time, look at HR skills for example) for ITC of 15 seconds at least or a change to ITC (remove deflect), a buff to base damage of certain skills, but also the addition of some sort of stealth reveal on Cloud of Steel. But that's for a different topic, really.
All in all, make SE respect DR but buff the base damage otherwise it'll just become another useless tool.
The problem is I don't trust his picture. 124K SE from 3.2K Item level TR, consider the TR has 29 STR (20 base point +7 point from 1-70 and +2STR from Puissance Belt)
This is +19% dmg bonus, you cant believe 3.2K TR has R12 Radiant right?
From campaign and several R9-R10 radiant and elemental mixed pvp gears, the power may reach 15000 power. that is 40% damage bonus
And consider P.V and dragon campaign bonus, crit severtity reach 85%(in real it will less than 85%)
If a TR have 16894 power (when I was wear pet). the tooltip of shocking Execution is
21315 - 25776
(I use 16000+ power here to consider GutterBorn's Touch)
Which means 38367 - 46397 if crit. Which I think the most of 3K - 3K5 TRs feel SE can deal.
Add the first strike feature, thats 30%+15%+15%+15% = 75%
The final damage is 37301 - 81194.
Which means, even with Elven Ferocity, the contaminated damage is not over 95K
The first 4 feat from either Scoundrel or Executioner cannot boost your power to deal over 100k damage
Press the Advantage from scoundrel path can give you addition 10% power, but lets say you have 19000+ power
The base damage from shocking execution still under
22110 - 26740
But if his HP is less than 30% and TR is executioner
With DeathKnell + Last moments + ShadowBorn, this damage is doable
That is total 50% more damage and double power
30000 power
The base damage could around 25000-30000
Then crit is 50000. plus 75% + 50%, then the max output can over 112K.
He either modified that picture or not count buffs on TR
Combat advantage, you idiot. TR gets a minimum of +15% damage from stealth due to stealth granting combat advantage. And most TRs stack CHA and combat advantage stat so it can reach a lot more than that, more like 30%+. Also, you're assuming a saboteur can't use executioner's feats. For example, arterial cut is a tier 1 feat and a must for sabos. Adds +15% crit severity from stealth. That makes it 145% crit severity with p.vorpal. Moreover, Ambusher's Haste adds up to 25% more damage in stealth too. So a medium geared TR can hit for well over 124k.
If you suck so much at building your toon, don't assume others do.
Fine, 3.2 TR can do 124 K SE to 1 shot you from full HP. Are you seriously?
Consider this as baseline, how many damage 4.2 TR can do?
Sounds like we should have multiple QQ threads on this. At least 200K un-dodge-able damage. I may trust this BS if I never run PVP
Here are some sample SEs from a match I ran today. There's a large variance in damage output, with base damage going as high as 91k, but more typical hits being in the 60k range.
No one is arguing that the massive hits are typical for the average low-geared, poorly-built TR, or even for higher-end ones, but there's no question that they occur, and quite frequently with some TRs.
Yes, typical range is 60k.
But in mod 6, even cw has 90k HP, do you still believe this is a problem? Not to mention how many HP DC and op can heal, or temp c x ,vc
No one is talking about CWs, DCs and OPs you dumb <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. It's GWFs and SWs that can't avoid the damage. How about if my GWF could hit you for 60% of your max hp at least twice a minute and you couldn't do a thing about it, not even in stealth?
Comments
Just shut the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up and listen for once. First, do this test:
http://www.brainbashersgames.com/games/10seconds.asp
The average player does around 6 clicks per second or 1 click per 0.167s. Now a GWF needs to click Mighty Leap twice (target+execute) to dodge SE. That's 0.334s, we also have to take into account 2 more factors:
1) ping which can go from as low as 15ms (if you're local) to as much as 350ms (not counting those above as I dunno who'd play with ping higher than that), I myself have ~200ms ping
2) reaction time. This can be both sight and auditory reaction time. You can test yourself here:
http://cognitivefun.net/test/1
http://cognitivefun.net/test/16
I myself have scored ~250ms sight reaction time and ~100ms auditory reaction time.
So in perfect conditions I spend a minimum of 0.334+0.2+0.1= 0.63s to react to a Shocking Execution. And since SE can be performed in 1s that's rarely enough. TR on the other hand can be a slug and still hit the GWF 100% of the time unless he's running the only anti-SE build (which makes the GWF an useless clown if he were to encounter another class in the game, domination and GG are team games afterall) and has an incredible reaction time, ping and whatnot.
And I won't even consider Avalanche of Steel. TR can cancel SE with dodge and GWF can't cancel AoS.
And you do realize that SW has 0 chance to avoid SE, right?
So lemme get this straight, you want a cheesy mechanic that can easily destroy 2 classes with zero effort and put everyone else on edge (as to not waste that one last dodge just for the sake of dodging SE)? And start bashing ppl for even suggesting SE mitigation with sprint/shadow slip/unstoppable? Just how greedy can you seriously be?
In the end except for deflect will still hit for 50k as all the other mentioned dailies
There are probably a few options but this is certainly one that sounds reasonable to me.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
You're wasting your time. Logic does not work with him.
Wish he could re-read what he writes. Saying it's OK for SE do ignore SW/gwf dodge mechanic, asking to keep a 'press button with no need to time your hit' mechanic, and accusing the ones who ask just for a working dodge, to be 'keyboard smash lovers'.
It's straw man arguments and reversed logic. I won't waste my time with him more than this. Normal players understand the issue and that's enough.
Make dr from unstoppable debuffable but unpierceable.
Would allow those 2 classes to have a shift mechanic that counts and eradicate the problem of undodgeable hits.
Would make timing count for everyone and still reward those who have skills to time their hits, while punishing those who hit a dodging gwf/SW or an unstoppable gwf.
Pretty simple imho.
No, CW can't hit me for 50k+. Even the best geared CWs crit me for <40k if I don't dodge it. And there's also deflect and not permanent 100% crit rate. Whereas you can see in this thread how much can some TRs hit for (124k, ftw) and there's 2 classes that have no reliable defenses against that. That's what this thread is about.
Crescendo? Same as Ice Knife but can only be used in melee. Too easy to avoid.
You CAN get 1 shotted by equal geared TRs. Just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> look at romanporter's screenshot. Even BiS GWF and SW gets 1 shot by that. And even low geared TRs are capable of 55k+ back-to-back SEs.
"My ping is 300-350. So if i fight with a gwf with less latency i must fail no matter what?" Then why should a GWF or SW fail no matter what against TR even with a flawless ping? I don't even... Such a hypocrite.
Well, I did suggest 2 options: remove piercing from SE OR let GWFs and SWs mitigate SE damage with their mechanics. Yet instead of looking for a compromise (2nd suggestion is a valid compromise, imho) we see scrub TRs blindly defending SE. I don't get em.
Oh, there are other sources of damage. It's just that using any other source of damage is:
(1) lower average damage -- slower kills, or even possibility of not being able to overcome self-heals
(2) more risk -- need to try a lot more higher damage powers, have to mix in more non-survival encounters, need to try more melee, resulting in more exposure
(3) less effective node clearing, contesting
Since we're comparing the TR to GWFs, let's see what happens if we:
(1) totally remove the SO piercing damage
(2) fix SE daily
(3) nerf WoE damage boosts (applies to all classes)
The Sabo TR (since Sabos are absolute majority in PvP) can't deal sufficient damage from ranged/stealthed CoS spamming. With SE also properly balanced the spam CoS from stealth until full AP, and then SE also loses a lot of meaning.
Imagine the mod4 TR which was at the game's all-time low-point, and then imagine the non-majority permastealth build in that mod4. Weak, weak CoS shots... SE not hitting too hard... somewhat capable node-troller but hard-pressed to kill something. That's what the Sabo path should be nerfed down to → highest survivability = lowest damage. Good node troller, but lousy node clearer.
When you subsequently lower the damage, then what happens is if a TR really wants to take a GWF down, it needs to become more aggressive, and take more risks, getting in close to land stuff like Dazing Strike, attacking when the GWF is CCd, and then have to anticipate the Unstoppable timing to run away, or otherwise, the level of damage GWFs are currently at, a few lucky shots in with stuff like FLS and it could be game over.
In other words, when the lame-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> piercing stuff, as well as all the freebie damage from 1-min WoE artifact spamming and stuff are gone or suppressed, then the TR, whatever build it is, needs to do it the "old-fashioned" way, landing CCs to buy safety time, attacking when GWF is CCd, running when Unstoppable fires up, finding the crucial time to attempt ITC-DF strikes, and of course ALL of this involves certain amount of risk by having to get in closer to hit with harder hitting powers than just CoS spamming->full AP->SE spamming.
When the ridiculous stuff is fixed, then the survivability is naturally fixed as well. That, and the TR players' perception also needs to change -- as us TRs have been taking it for granted this "freebie, safe attack from stealth is the only way we can fight." Having stayed away from Sabos since mod5 I can say TRs like us Scoundrels or Executioners have largely woken up from that mentality, but it still persists with Sabo players.
Yes, for us non-Sabos a BiS GWF is extremely difficult to take down and always a challenge. A little bit off with our timing and it's literally over in a matter of seconds, so every attack we try does some damage, and every time we do it we take risks, try our best to contain that risk, and when we succeed we pressure the GWF to run, or even take him down, but if we fail, then we die. Just like any class should. We can't contest a node against 6~7 people in GG like Sabos could, and its more like maybe 3~4 people at most. Every attack, every tactic we try holds risks which have opportunities for the opponent to try and retaliate, and especially, our stealth is now shortest in the history of NW TRs, unlike how Sabos are basically all permas.
Sabo players? They've been spoiled so much from the last two mods with so much lazy-arsh tactics that most TRs that started from mod5 don't even know what a jump-DF is, or how much we old TRs used to try to master it in the olden days. They're accustomed to taking zero risks and yet reaping fruits of high damage, as well as the general tactics being so lazy that it basically consists of throwing CoS around, staying in permamode, and then waiting out for 100% AP to spam SE every time available. Usually don't even use WoE, and more likely use SigDiv for 1-min or less interval SE spams.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
While my WK Scoundrel is not fighting against BIS anything, reading this reminded me how I feel every time I feel like I finally have a GWF hp within kill range, and then unstoppable pops, and my heart sinks. The feeling is much worse with pallys. LOL
Agree though. Permastealth should have the lowest damage output of 3 paths, and it could still be played well in that. I remember how impossible it was to try to take back a node with talented players like Dinter sitting on it in mod 4.
You missed macjae's point.
His point is you said:
Saying that the TR isn't a saboteur.
However, as macjae says, if you look at the screenshot you see "Shadowy Opportunity" pop up on the line right below, which clearly indicates the TR /is/ a Sab TR. Read please.
At this stage TR is kind of hard to balance without reworking it entirely. The permastealth FOTM build is far too strong in the wrong ways, and far too weak in the places it should be strong in. TRs should deal more consistent damage rather than having to completely rely on a daily for damage, and should also have far more vulnerability frames like every other class in the game.
Shocking Execution is wrong as a concept in general, with the massive piercing damage it does. Yes, it's dodgeable for most classes, and even in that case it's still a cheesy mechanic, because of how much immunity a TR has. More consistent damage with less burst damage would be better across the board for all TR trees. For classes that don't have dodges, they will generally eventually lose to a TR unless they massively outskill or outgear the TR because SE deals a shitload of damage that can be difficult to outheal since you can't really do consistent damage to lifesteal back.
Additionally, SE coupled with the massive amount of immunity frames a TR has is difficult or impossible to counter for a lot of classes 1v1, unless the TR makes a major mistake (even then, free restealth from daily or run offnode). This is also due to recovery having no diminishing returns and no cap, which allows for massive RSI stacking to reduce cooldowns of ITC etc., which means TRs can make mistakes and still be able to get back into stealth. A standard BiS build TR has roughly 4-5 seconds of ITC downtime or less. Also the ability to spam dailies even with a DC arti, which will only get worse next mod, is increased by recovery stacking.
SE needs to respect DR. The base damage is still fairly high, but should probably be increased to compensate for tenacity and DR. A 60k SE on CW with no shield, HR, TR or SW (not sprinting), will be reduced to about 21.6k damage (tenacity DR + tenacity crit DR), and that's on a target whose DR is mitigated to 0. On a target with negation, that damage becomes 15.1k. On a sprinting SW, that becomes 10k. Fine, that's a bit too low. I think a base damage buff of about 40-66% should be fine, as a 40% damage boost will bring SE to 30k on low DR classes, and 20k on a sprinting SW. SE could also be buffed to match its name, i.e. a similar effect to GF's Anvil of Doom. Remove the double usage at a certain HP %, and change it to something along the lines of "When your target has less than 40% HP, the damage of Shocking Execution is doubled".
There's a lot more buffs and nerfs TRs could receive i.e. charge refill time (hard cooldown, no matter how much RSI you stack it'll always have a minimum of this time, look at HR skills for example) for ITC of 15 seconds at least or a change to ITC (remove deflect), a buff to base damage of certain skills, but also the addition of some sort of stealth reveal on Cloud of Steel. But that's for a different topic, really.
All in all, make SE respect DR but buff the base damage otherwise it'll just become another useless tool.
Gwfs/ sws get cc immunity on shift, and 30% dr that can be debuffed and, like with shocking execution, pierced entirely.
So you sprint, time your shift, and in the end you pretty much only get cc immunity while still taking pretty much the same damage. Shocking execution hits you the same and only needs the TR to press one button.
Plus sprint is delayed and does not grant cc immunity in the initial frames.
I would AT LEAST make the dr from SW/ gwf shift work like CW shield (separate layer) and sprint be more responsive.
Now timing your shift would matter.
Would also make SE respect tenacity. Cause SE is doubled if you hit an opponent under 30% hp. Double daily (ap refill). So it must deal less damage cause you are not supposed to shoot it randomly and benefit, but rather drain your target hp and then execute him, and you get double daily if you use some brain, which is a great benefit.
'But sabo damage is low'. Isn't it the survivability path? You get amazing survivabilty and semi-perma stealth+itc in a mi/sabo build. The counter should be, you deal low damage. For more damage, you go executioner.
Putting GWF/SW sprint on a different layer is kind of iffy though, because it makes it multiplicative rather than additive, which in turn makes it a bit weaker. Sprint is already unmitigatible except by hard RI (i.e. mark and bronzewood), which would be fine if piercing damage actually respected tenacity/DR.
Combat advantage, you idiot. TR gets a minimum of +15% damage from stealth due to stealth granting combat advantage. And most TRs stack CHA and combat advantage stat so it can reach a lot more than that, more like 30%+. Also, you're assuming a saboteur can't use executioner's feats. For example, arterial cut is a tier 1 feat and a must for sabos. Adds +15% crit severity from stealth. That makes it 145% crit severity with p.vorpal. Moreover, Ambusher's Haste adds up to 25% more damage in stealth too. So a medium geared TR can hit for well over 124k.
If you suck so much at building your toon, don't assume others do.
No one is talking about CWs, DCs and OPs you dumb <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. It's GWFs and SWs that can't avoid the damage. How about if my GWF could hit you for 60% of your max hp at least twice a minute and you couldn't do a thing about it, not even in stealth?