I don't know how you can say that Starfleet was incompetent, considering we know basically nothing about the war, except through the tiny lense of Discovery's actions.
The Germany attempts at supertech were all not really ready for prime time, and Germany was unable to really support a steady supply and replace its existing fighter squadrons with jet fighters. But we see that the Klingons seem to have no problem installing cloaking devices on their ships.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Heh, Germany made several hasty changes to it's "undecipherable" Enigma machine during the war because it did get deciphered.
YUP. But Germany was a real entity, not a planet of hats or a stand-in for a hated domestic political rival.
world war 2 wasn't written by hacks, and didn't come with a predetermined outcome.
I would argue it was and did.
the Axis was primarily 2 loony dictators and an emperor who was over-ambitious. Their odds of winning were non-existent.
Mark, The allies could still have TRIBBLE up and lost.
wanna know just a few of the things that had to go right for that?
1. The Dunkirk evacuation could've been delayed-there were officers arguing that.
2. Hitler might have delayed the attack on russia until he'd subdued England/knocked them out of the war.
3. The Japanese hit Pearl harbor, but only luck saved the massive fueling bunkerage nearby. Had they hit THAT the war in the pacific would've been a VERY different thing.
Would the Axis have actually WON if they'd done any of that? Sure the war wouldn't been bloodier, but if it had continued Fatman may have blown up Berlin instead of Hiroshima. Most analysts think that Hiroshima was actually overkill and that the Japanese were a week from giving up.
Could Hitler have won against Russia at all? His armies weren't equipped to attack in cold weather and his only viable option was to have attacked EARLIER and tried a decapitation strike against the Russian leadership. Waiting would have given up that chance and allowed the Russians time to fortify the border.
Actually the Japanese intel on Pearl Harbor was so feeble they didn't KNOW enough to designate the actually important stuff as targets. The pilots were given a brief that basically said "bomb the military stuff". The attacks would have been a pinprick if the base hadn't been locked down in a foolish attempt at thwarting sabotage. People sometimes say it would have been far worse if the carrier fleet had been in the harbor, but if the general posture hadn't been so focused on sabotage the attack would have been shredded by a counter-attack.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I've wargamed enough to believe the only real difference in the outcome of WW2 is how long it takes. There is an opportunity for Germany in the Spring/Summer of 1941 to make peace and mean it: Germany effectively triples in size and can begin a decades long push toward European hegemony. After the attack on the Soviet Union, Germany's war is over. Even losing Moscow and Leningrad isn't going to be enough to stop Russia. Germany has already gone farther than they can hold, and it's just a matter of time.
Japan was overextended in Manchuria. By December 1941 it was consuming their industrial output and their oil reserves. Their desperation for materiel is what drove the Pacific campaign in the first place. They had about six months in which to play after Pearl Harbor, after which time attrition would consume their forces. They didn't have the spare troops to invade Hawaii, much less mainland North America. Completely abandoning Manchuria might have bought them another year or two at best, but holding on to it required the bulk of their land power. There are many things Japan could have done to extend the war, but nothing to win it.
Italy couldn't hold Eritrea. Without German intervention they would have lost Libya in 1940, and again in 1941. For all that Monty gets the praise, Alexander did what Monty did twice, with fewer troops and with far less equipment. Both times it was a surge of materiel and manpower by Germany that allowed Italy to remain in Africa as long as it did. Italy was at best a speedbump, and not a serious contender for domination of "their sea."
All the Axis could have done is make rapid strikes to seize territory then sue for peace. They were able to accomplish the first, but then failed to attempt the second. They all three overreached, and thus doomed themselves. After that it was just a matter of time, and how much they were willing to sacrifice to buy it.
I've wargamed enough to believe the only real difference in the outcome of WW2 is how long it takes. There is an opportunity for Germany in the Spring/Summer of 1941 to make peace and mean it: Germany effectively triples in size and can begin a decades long push toward European hegemony. After the attack on the Soviet Union, Germany's war is over. Even losing Moscow and Leningrad isn't going to be enough to stop Russia. Germany has already gone farther than they can hold, and it's just a matter of time.
Japan was overextended in Manchuria. By December 1941 it was consuming their industrial output and their oil reserves. Their desperation for materiel is what drove the Pacific campaign in the first place. They had about six months in which to play after Pearl Harbor, after which time attrition would consume their forces. They didn't have the spare troops to invade Hawaii, much less mainland North America. Completely abandoning Manchuria might have bought them another year or two at best, but holding on to it required the bulk of their land power. There are many things Japan could have done to extend the war, but nothing to win it.
Italy couldn't hold Eritrea. Without German intervention they would have lost Libya in 1940, and again in 1941. For all that Monty gets the praise, Alexander did what Monty did twice, with fewer troops and with far less equipment. Both times it was a surge of materiel and manpower by Germany that allowed Italy to remain in Africa as long as it did. Italy was at best a speedbump, and not a serious contender for domination of "their sea."
All the Axis could have done is make rapid strikes to seize territory then sue for peace. They were able to accomplish the first, but then failed to attempt the second. They all three overreached, and thus doomed themselves. After that it was just a matter of time, and how much they were willing to sacrifice to buy it.
This is exactly what I was getting at. The Axis powers didn't have enough resources to actually win. Sure you can speculate on stuff like "what if the Pearl Harbor fuel depot had been destroyed?" But the reality is it wouldn't have had a major impact. Losing it wouldn't have crippled the Pacific Fleet. It would have somewhat limited fleet movements until the fuel distribution network was reworked, but that'd have been a matter of weeks. Yes, rebuilding the Pearl Harbor fuel depot would have taken years, but it wasn't needed. They could have refueled ships by pumping fuel directly out of a tanker into the warship like a floating gas station. All the fuel depot really was was a giant storage tank. It was useful, but they could refuel things at Pearl Harbor without it.
They were, however, tying up alongside colliers at sea and shoveling coal from one ship to another manually prior to WW1. Unrep is only one way to transfer oi, which is a lot less labor intensive than coal. How about tying up at a dock then tying the ship to be refueled beside it? How about lifting an oiler with a screwed up propulsion system onto the dock and using it as a fuel battery? I don't know, how about building oilers for one-way trips and parking them wherever they wind up to be used as a fuel depot?
Logistics is a problem to be solved, not an insurmountable obstacle.
Let's go back to England being captured: what do the Axis guys do about the rest of the commonwealth?
Japan was so tied up in Manchuria that their effective spread across the Pacific was only possible because there was no one there to stop them. They were getting chewed up by partisans in the Phillipines, and had so few troops available that the Diggers were able to stop them on Java, even though Australia's best troops were in Africa at the time. They assembled every spare troop they could for the invasion of Alaska and Midway, and came away with two undefended islands. They had no capacity to replace the massive losses the USA was inflicting on their shipping with submarines. Japan stalemated itself in the Pacific by opening up too many fronts, none of which they could hold.
The Germans were in a similar predicament. Neither Poland nor France were pacified and required a commitment of troops to hold, plus Italy needed bailing out in Greece, the Balkans, and Africa. The occupied areas of the Soviet Union grew partisans as quickly as the German army could take land, and the Soviet ability to simply order a production facility stripped to the walls and transported across the Urals meant that no matter how many cities the Germans captured, Soviet production of war goods would increase forever. Plus raw materials and manpower were barely tapped resources by the inefficient Soviet economy, but under pressure from Germany their economy became more efficient by the day.
Russia didn't need the USA or the Commonwealth to defeat Germany: they needed time. The Western powers only helped to speed things up a bit, and that not by much. Ironically, having lost England and thus any hope of getting into Europe before 1944, the USA is free to exercise a stronger strategy against Japan, which means the USA is in Manchuria cleaning out the last Japanese holdouts by 1943-44. Guess who's on the other side of Manchuria? With the USA pumping supplies into the Tans-Siberian railroad, building improvements and modernizing it, Russia no longer has to worry about its economy: the USA floats it until the red flag flies over Paris and London.
No matter how you slice the apple, there won't ever be enough to make a pie. The Axis simply lacked the resources they required to prosecute a global war. What they could have done, but didn't try, was a smash-and-grab, in which they execute a brilliant blitzkrieg attack then sue for peace. Just take a bit more than you can hold effectively so you have something to give up as part of the settlement. It doesn't get you everything, but it could get you a lot more than they eventually came away with. When you don't have enough apple to make a pie, the smart cook makes a tart.
Yeah, no. The whole 'external threat to create internal unity' thing only works when there's an actual threat, or people at least believe there is one.
T'Kuvma was able to convince the other 23 houses the Federation was a threat - so they believed there was one. Hence, the war.
Yes, the war where the Klingons were kicking the TRIBBLE out of the Federation. I was referring to the claim that L'Rell, after forcing the Great Houses to abandon the war they were winning against the Federation, and to pull back from all the Federation territory they had conquered, was then somehow going to convince them to unite behind her because of the "threat" of the Federation.
In the cases of both the War of Southern Aggression and World War II, both wars were winnable for the losing side in at least one way, but you have to step back from the actual battles and go to the politics. Remember Carl von Clausewitz: "War is a continuation of politics with other means."
In the case of the Civil War, Lincoln out-politicked the South. As Patrick said, up until Fort Sumter the momentum was towards secession, but Lincoln's primary objective was to preserve the Union, and the bombardment of a Union fort gave him the pretext he needed to unify the North. Again with the Emancipation Proclamation: contrary to what Lost Causers will tell you, the South said from the beginning that the war was about slavery, but Lincoln, though an abolitionist, touted preserving the Union... until he realized that the two goals couldn't be separated. The Emancipation Proclamation was about changing the conversation both in the North and overseas: the South long hoped Britain would join the war on their side, but unfortunately King William IV had worked very hard to abolish slavery in 1834 and by now any defense of slavery was politically indefensible.
Now, the Axis. The war was basically a story of talented amateurs overriding the professionals, especially REMFs versus field officers. Guderian and Rommel were advancing into France so quickly Hitler and the genrgen staff were afraid they were going to bite off more than they could chew, and finally managed to get Hitler to issue a direct order to halt them short of Dunkirk.
Even after that, the UK could have been knocked out of the war but for a snafu: the Germans were concentrating quite sensibly on destroying the RAF's ability to operate by bombing the TRIBBLE out of their airfields, but then a German bomber got lost and dropped on downtown London by accident. Churchill used this as an excuse to bomb Berlin, and Hitler ordered the Blitz as revenge. Which took the pressure off the RAF and let them regroup.
And again on the Eastern front, this time ideology outrunning practicality. Stalin was so hated that when the Germans invaded the border republics they were greeted as liberators. Savvier, less ideological minds could have turned this into a huge advantage against the Soviets: the Finns and Romanians joined in for exactly that reason. But no, according to the guys in charge the Slavs were "inferior races" and their land properly belonged to Germany, preferably without any of them on it. And thus did Germany manage to give up the moral high ground to FREAKING STALIN. Even by N@zi standards, that's impressive.
By the way, the Japanese had a similar opportunity in the Pacific, and blew it the same way. I can think of another half-dozen examples but I think I made my point. And lest anyone think this was only an Axis problem, take a gander at the Greco-Italian War. The Greeks were actually winning until Churchill, a Grecophile, decided to send in troops to help. This gave Hitler an excuse to intervene just to break British stuff.
Moral of the story is, the side that makes the fewest mistakes wins.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
The Germany attempts at supertech were all not really ready for prime time, and Germany was unable to really support a steady supply and replace its existing fighter squadrons with jet fighters. But we see that the Klingons seem to have no problem installing cloaking devices on their ships.
My character Tsin'xing
the Axis was primarily 2 loony dictators and an emperor who was over-ambitious. Their odds of winning were non-existent.
My character Tsin'xing
Could Hitler have won against Russia at all? His armies weren't equipped to attack in cold weather and his only viable option was to have attacked EARLIER and tried a decapitation strike against the Russian leadership. Waiting would have given up that chance and allowed the Russians time to fortify the border.
Actually the Japanese intel on Pearl Harbor was so feeble they didn't KNOW enough to designate the actually important stuff as targets. The pilots were given a brief that basically said "bomb the military stuff". The attacks would have been a pinprick if the base hadn't been locked down in a foolish attempt at thwarting sabotage. People sometimes say it would have been far worse if the carrier fleet had been in the harbor, but if the general posture hadn't been so focused on sabotage the attack would have been shredded by a counter-attack.
My character Tsin'xing
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Japan was overextended in Manchuria. By December 1941 it was consuming their industrial output and their oil reserves. Their desperation for materiel is what drove the Pacific campaign in the first place. They had about six months in which to play after Pearl Harbor, after which time attrition would consume their forces. They didn't have the spare troops to invade Hawaii, much less mainland North America. Completely abandoning Manchuria might have bought them another year or two at best, but holding on to it required the bulk of their land power. There are many things Japan could have done to extend the war, but nothing to win it.
Italy couldn't hold Eritrea. Without German intervention they would have lost Libya in 1940, and again in 1941. For all that Monty gets the praise, Alexander did what Monty did twice, with fewer troops and with far less equipment. Both times it was a surge of materiel and manpower by Germany that allowed Italy to remain in Africa as long as it did. Italy was at best a speedbump, and not a serious contender for domination of "their sea."
All the Axis could have done is make rapid strikes to seize territory then sue for peace. They were able to accomplish the first, but then failed to attempt the second. They all three overreached, and thus doomed themselves. After that it was just a matter of time, and how much they were willing to sacrifice to buy it.
My character Tsin'xing
Logistics is a problem to be solved, not an insurmountable obstacle.
Let's go back to England being captured: what do the Axis guys do about the rest of the commonwealth?
Japan was so tied up in Manchuria that their effective spread across the Pacific was only possible because there was no one there to stop them. They were getting chewed up by partisans in the Phillipines, and had so few troops available that the Diggers were able to stop them on Java, even though Australia's best troops were in Africa at the time. They assembled every spare troop they could for the invasion of Alaska and Midway, and came away with two undefended islands. They had no capacity to replace the massive losses the USA was inflicting on their shipping with submarines. Japan stalemated itself in the Pacific by opening up too many fronts, none of which they could hold.
The Germans were in a similar predicament. Neither Poland nor France were pacified and required a commitment of troops to hold, plus Italy needed bailing out in Greece, the Balkans, and Africa. The occupied areas of the Soviet Union grew partisans as quickly as the German army could take land, and the Soviet ability to simply order a production facility stripped to the walls and transported across the Urals meant that no matter how many cities the Germans captured, Soviet production of war goods would increase forever. Plus raw materials and manpower were barely tapped resources by the inefficient Soviet economy, but under pressure from Germany their economy became more efficient by the day.
Russia didn't need the USA or the Commonwealth to defeat Germany: they needed time. The Western powers only helped to speed things up a bit, and that not by much. Ironically, having lost England and thus any hope of getting into Europe before 1944, the USA is free to exercise a stronger strategy against Japan, which means the USA is in Manchuria cleaning out the last Japanese holdouts by 1943-44. Guess who's on the other side of Manchuria? With the USA pumping supplies into the Tans-Siberian railroad, building improvements and modernizing it, Russia no longer has to worry about its economy: the USA floats it until the red flag flies over Paris and London.
No matter how you slice the apple, there won't ever be enough to make a pie. The Axis simply lacked the resources they required to prosecute a global war. What they could have done, but didn't try, was a smash-and-grab, in which they execute a brilliant blitzkrieg attack then sue for peace. Just take a bit more than you can hold effectively so you have something to give up as part of the settlement. It doesn't get you everything, but it could get you a lot more than they eventually came away with. When you don't have enough apple to make a pie, the smart cook makes a tart.
Yes, the war where the Klingons were kicking the TRIBBLE out of the Federation. I was referring to the claim that L'Rell, after forcing the Great Houses to abandon the war they were winning against the Federation, and to pull back from all the Federation territory they had conquered, was then somehow going to convince them to unite behind her because of the "threat" of the Federation.
In the case of the Civil War, Lincoln out-politicked the South. As Patrick said, up until Fort Sumter the momentum was towards secession, but Lincoln's primary objective was to preserve the Union, and the bombardment of a Union fort gave him the pretext he needed to unify the North. Again with the Emancipation Proclamation: contrary to what Lost Causers will tell you, the South said from the beginning that the war was about slavery, but Lincoln, though an abolitionist, touted preserving the Union... until he realized that the two goals couldn't be separated. The Emancipation Proclamation was about changing the conversation both in the North and overseas: the South long hoped Britain would join the war on their side, but unfortunately King William IV had worked very hard to abolish slavery in 1834 and by now any defense of slavery was politically indefensible.
Now, the Axis. The war was basically a story of talented amateurs overriding the professionals, especially REMFs versus field officers. Guderian and Rommel were advancing into France so quickly Hitler and the genrgen staff were afraid they were going to bite off more than they could chew, and finally managed to get Hitler to issue a direct order to halt them short of Dunkirk.
Even after that, the UK could have been knocked out of the war but for a snafu: the Germans were concentrating quite sensibly on destroying the RAF's ability to operate by bombing the TRIBBLE out of their airfields, but then a German bomber got lost and dropped on downtown London by accident. Churchill used this as an excuse to bomb Berlin, and Hitler ordered the Blitz as revenge. Which took the pressure off the RAF and let them regroup.
And again on the Eastern front, this time ideology outrunning practicality. Stalin was so hated that when the Germans invaded the border republics they were greeted as liberators. Savvier, less ideological minds could have turned this into a huge advantage against the Soviets: the Finns and Romanians joined in for exactly that reason. But no, according to the guys in charge the Slavs were "inferior races" and their land properly belonged to Germany, preferably without any of them on it. And thus did Germany manage to give up the moral high ground to FREAKING STALIN. Even by N@zi standards, that's impressive.
By the way, the Japanese had a similar opportunity in the Pacific, and blew it the same way. I can think of another half-dozen examples but I think I made my point. And lest anyone think this was only an Axis problem, take a gander at the Greco-Italian War. The Greeks were actually winning until Churchill, a Grecophile, decided to send in troops to help. This gave Hitler an excuse to intervene just to break British stuff.
Moral of the story is, the side that makes the fewest mistakes wins.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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