The Discoprise, original drawings.

smokebailey · October 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cdS0pz4ZWM

Always seems the original art designs are better, and the visual effects guys TRIBBLE it up, in my opinion.

Though the tos enterprise itself was perfectly fine to begin with, I feel.

rattler2 · October 2018

Without looking at the video... I only see 2 differences between the concept and the final model at the moment. Straight nacelle pylons vs swept back, and the ball caps on the end of the nacelles rather than going with the more Cage style grid.

Still... The old girl still proudly flies the galaxy.

artan42 · October 2018

Though the tos enterprise itself was perfectly fine to begin with, I feel.

What's this ship got to do with the one used in TOS?

This is either a retcon of the Cage version or a variant between The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before. Nothing to do with TOS.

It's as much a nonsense statement as gushing about the TMP refit would be, or the three KT versions.

rattler2 · October 2018

Three KT Versions? Does the refitted impulse engines alone count as a seperate version? Or are we also including the Ent-A from the end of Beyond?

And I personally view the Discovery version as a retcon of the Cage variant.

artan42 · October 2018

rattler2 wrote: »

Three KT Versions? Does the refitted impulse engines alone count as a seperate version? Or are we also including the Ent-A from the end of Beyond?

And I personally view the Discovery version as a retcon of the Cage variant.

The version from the very end of ID and into BEY has new, smaller, nacelles, new impulse block, and new pylons. It's as much a different version as the TOS version is from the WNM version. (technically the version from the end of ID only has the new impulse block but I'm not sure if that's to be seen as intended to be the BEY version or if it's like the TAS version where it was refitted with a second turbolift on the bridge, i.e. doesn't really counts).

The A is the third version.

I've heard rumours (just rumours however) that The Cage will be happening in DSC S2 so I still have a bit of trepidation on how it fits in. Especially as The Cage is essentially one big deleted scene and despite appearing onscreen (as DVD bonus features for the latter and as part of The Menagerie for the former) they aren't aired so I've no idea how they stand canonically.

rattler2 · October 2018

I don't see how they could do The Cage. Because I always got the sense that if we assume those events took place, that they took place before Discovery.

As for the Kelvin Connie... I see it as '09, Beyond, and A. Yea the Beyond version has the larger impulse deck, but the refit at the end of Into Darkness doesn't have the same pylons as the Beyond version, and has the same size warp nacelles as the '09.

artan42 · October 2018

rattler2 wrote: »

I don't see how they could do The Cage. Because I always got the sense that if we assume those events took place, that they took place before Discovery.

As far as I'm aware there weren't any dates mentioned in TOS for The Cage so shuffling it by a year or two shouldn't affect much.

rattler2 wrote: »

As for the Kelvin Connie... I see it as '09, Beyond, and A. Yea the Beyond version has the larger impulse deck, but the refit at the end of Into Darkness doesn't have the same pylons as the Beyond version, and has the same size warp nacelles as the '09.

Well yeah, but couldn't work out if it's intended to be the same ship in the end of ID and beginning of BEY or not. Like the Ent B on TNGs ship wall where it's supposed to be the refit even though its a standard version.

jonsills · October 2018

rattler2 wrote: »

I don't see how they could do The Cage. Because I always got the sense that if we assume those events took place, that they took place before Discovery.

Unknown. All we know is that it happened at some point before Kirk took the ship, and that Pike was getting tired of being responsible for everyone. (Oh, and that it happened shortly after an incident on Rigel VI, as I recall.) Beyond that, all we have to date it is Spock's statement that he served under Pike for eleven years, which isn't exactly a precise dating mechanism, unless at some point during S2 they mention how long Spock's been with Pike now.

rattler2 · October 2018

artan42 wrote: »

Well yeah, but couldn't work out if it's intended to be the same ship in the end of ID and beginning of BEY or not. Like the Ent B on TNGs ship wall where it's supposed to be the refit even though its a standard version.

Here's my thinking. The larger impulse deck was added because the ship got pretty mangled by the Vengeance. So while undergoing repairs at say Earth Station McKinley or the San Fransisco yards, they decided to overhaul the impulse drive since that area was pretty beat up. This was before the Enterprise was selected for a 5 year mission. When they got their mission, Enterprise was ordered to another shipyard for a refit, which leads to the one we saw getting shredded in Beyond. So she is the same ship.

As for the Enterprise-B model... you do have to consider how many years they had between TNG and Generations. Also the Enterprise-C model was different too, using the Probert concept if I remember correctly. And for all intents and purposes it totally ignores the existance of the NX-01, although it could be argued that it only accounts for FEDERATION ships named Enterprise, but then we have the issue of the Ent-D having a model of the CVN-65 or CV-6 aircraft carrier.

jonsills wrote: »

Unknown. All we know is that it happened at some point before Kirk took the ship, and that Pike was getting tired of being responsible for everyone. (Oh, and that it happened shortly after an incident on Rigel VI, as I recall.) Beyond that, all we have to date it is Spock's statement that he served under Pike for eleven years, which isn't exactly a precise dating mechanism, unless at some point during S2 they mention how long Spock's been with Pike now.

The other issue is the fact that they'd have to pretty much do a total rewrite, because Cage also had the USS Enterprise there. If Pike is taking command of USS Discovery for the duration of Season 2... that would be a pretty big continuity error on the part of a certain TOS episode that was used to shoehorn The Cage into canon, which was basically an episode in an episode.

And knowing a certain crowd... we'll have a flame war on the forums over the legitimacy of Discovery... AGAIN.

jonsills · October 2018

Hey, all I'm saying is that "The Cage" won't happen this season, and when it does (assuming it hasn't already) the Discovery won't be involved. We just don't know for sure exactly when that episode happened in context with anything else, because there are so few on-screen clues. It's possible that Spock's experiences this season in DSC will lead to the Spock we saw in "The Cage", shouting his orders across the bridge and smiling at a chiming plant.

artan42 · October 2018

rattler2 wrote: »

As for the Enterprise-B model... you do have to consider how many years they had between TNG and Generations. Also the Enterprise-C model was different too, using the Probert concept if I remember correctly. And for all intents and purposes it totally ignores the existance of the NX-01, although it could be argued that it only accounts for FEDERATION ships named Enterprise, but then we have the issue of the Ent-D having a model of the CVN-65 or CV-6 aircraft carrier.

Yeah, I know the BtS reason for it using the pre-refit version, however there could always still be an in-universe reason. The C for instance is so significantly different from what we got in YE it could have been launched in a completely different configuration to what it was destroyed in. Look how different the 'no bloody A, B, C, or D' was between No Man and it's destruction.

jonsills wrote: »

Unknown. All we know is that it happened at some point before Kirk took the ship, and that Pike was getting tired of being responsible for everyone. (Oh, and that it happened shortly after an incident on Rigel VI, as I recall.) Beyond that, all we have to date it is Spock's statement that he served under Pike for eleven years, which isn't exactly a precise dating mechanism, unless at some point during S2 they mention how long Spock's been with Pike now.

...

It's possible that Spock's experiences this season in DSC will lead to the Spock we saw in "The Cage", shouting his orders across the bridge and smiling at a chiming plant.

Yeah, these are the points I've heard justifying replaying The Cage in DSC.

I hope they do because I can't sleep at night having to think the Conni was in the Cage configuration, refitted to the DSC version, then back to the Cage version, then to the TOS version, and finally into the TMP version.

brian334 · October 2018

Michael Burnham is Number One from Pike's Enterprise!

rattler2 · November 2018

Hey... now lets not go throwing gas on a fire man. We got a perfectly civil discussion going here.

Besides... Number One is going to be making an appearance in season 2 so already debunked.

khan5000 · November 2018

Memory Alpha lists The Cage taking place in 2254. Not sure when that was stated in the episode. If true The Cage takes place two years before Discovery (2256).

Edit: In the Menagerie second episode Spock mentions that the Talosians control the ship as they did 13 years before. That’s where they got the date from.

artan42 · November 2018

khan5000 wrote: »

Memory Alpha lists The Cage taking place in 2254. Not sure when that was stated in the episode. If true The Cage takes place two years before Discovery (2256).

Edit: In the Menagerie second episode Spock mentions that the Talosians control the ship as they did 13 years before. That’s where they got the date from.

Like with any dates it's conjecture. Very few works have an actual year attached. As far as I know, only ENT and TKT use actual years whereas Stardates (especially in TOS/TAS) are utterly arbitrary.

khan5000 · November 2018

> @artan42 said:
> khan5000 wrote: »
>
> Memory Alpha lists The Cage taking place in 2254. Not sure when that was stated in the episode. If true The Cage takes place two years before Discovery (2256).
>
> Edit: In the Menagerie second episode Spock mentions that the Talosians control the ship as they did 13 years before. That’s where they got the date from.
>
>
>
>
> Like with any dates it's conjecture. Very few works have an actual year attached. As far as I know, only ENT and TKT use actual years whereas Stardates (especially in TOS/TAS) are utterly arbitrary.

True however we know Discovery takes place 10 years before TOS. Spock mentions that The Cage took place 13 years ago. Just by that alone The Cage should take place before the events of Discovery

angrytarg · November 2018

> @artan42 said:
>
> I hope they do because I can't sleep at night having to think the Conni was in the Cage configuration, refitted to the DSC version, then back to the Cage version, then to the TOS version, and finally into the TMP version.

But you KNOW that DSC is not supposed to be visually compatible. They said outright that they changed the connie's appearance to fit 'their world'. Cage does not become DSC and DSC does not become TOS.

artan42 · November 2018

angrytarg wrote: »

> @artan42 said:
>
> I hope they do because I can't sleep at night having to think the Conni was in the Cage configuration, refitted to the DSC version, then back to the Cage version, then to the TOS version, and finally into the TMP version.

But you KNOW that DSC is not supposed to be visually compatible. They said outright that they changed the connie's appearance to fit 'their world'. Cage does not become DSC and DSC does not become TOS.

Unless it's retconned onscreen then the DSC Conni still becomes the No Man version because it doesn't matter what people BtS say.

Like the Klingons. We KNEW that they are all now bald but lo and behold they bow aren't. I never take any BtS stuff seriously because it never lasts.

jonsills · November 2018

You people are so hung up on visuals. It's just amazing.

rattler2 · November 2018

Of course they are. Because it doesn't line up with TOS. Since it doesn't look like it was made in the 60s, it doesn't compute for the time period its set in.

artan42 · November 2018

jonsills wrote: »

You people are so hung up on visuals. It's just amazing.

Which people? My post was sarcasm.

I don't think any work of fiction has stopped me from sleeping.

The Discoprise, original drawings.

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