Sins more broken than ever before?
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Longknife - Harshlands
Posts: 4,843 Arc User
NOW HEAR ME OUT GUIS. Before I start I wanna make it clear this isn't even about 1v1 fights or any standard complaint of how they pop from stealth and omg can't even react. I've spent ages fighting sins and like to think I do a pretty damned good job fighting them 1v1.
My complaint here is that in the past, sins have been rather unimportant from a TW perspective or a group PVP perspective. Sins were ultimately archers that had this nice little advantage of being able to position themselves around a cata cleric or important enemy DD in any way they like, AKA if you fought a guild with excellent cleric coverage that archers struggled to get through, sins could cover that, but they were inferior to archers in every other category in every possible way. Sins would pop out, get a key kill or at least provide a distraction that halted heals or an enemy advance for a time, but then the sin itself was on a rather clear time limit for how long they could stay put before they'd get absolutely curbstomped and needed to retreat, lest they suffer the focus-fire of a BM with only half of a BM's defenses.
So what's changed?
Several things, but let's start with the biggest one:
First off, buffs are now more important than ever. More base stats = more benefit to your stats from buffs. Back in the day buffs meant 4000 became 6000. Now buffs mean 30,000 becomes 39,000. Archers are a pretty good class, but they're notoriously squishy the moment they lose their buffs. Psychic is arguably the squishiest class in the game, but whereas a Psy circumvents poor defense with various skills and ailments, archers just....don't handle purge well. The result is that archers are arguably one of the first classes to die. It's the curse of their LA; it means purge hurts them more because unbuffed, their defenses are subpar on BOTH counts.
So sins would suffer the same curse right? Wrong. Tidal Protection. Sins are just as squishy if purged, this is true, but good luck actually purging them. The result is that, quite ironically, the average sin is now a better tank than an archer. Sins have gone from being down near the bottom of the tank list next to Psychic and are suddenly a very reasonably tanky class.
Whereas a Psy can only tank as long as they have resistances remaining OR they sacrifice all meaningful damage (AKA their prime usefulness) for survivability....
Whereas BMs, Wizards, Seekers and archers can ABSOLUTELY CRASH AND BURN to a properly timed purge....
Sins have both various means of survivability at their disposal much like a Psy while upholding base stats on par with a BM. That a sin loses it's tankiness the moment it's purged is practically a moot point, both because it's a mere chance for the sin to get purged and because of this, no veno in their right mind will willingly waste a purge on a sin when there's a BM, Seeker, archer or other such class present (AKA all the time). Hell, even IF you decide to try your luck with the purge anyways, that sin has single-handedly become a giant obstacle just because purging and killing him takes a good amount of focus.
The result is that oftentimes, a sin outlives a BM or Seeker. If I see an enemy seeker is causing problems, the solution is quite simple: grab the nearest veno and Psychic and send them both after him. One purge means the Seeker goes from taking ~3ks to ~9ks, not to mention absolutely ridiculous crits. BM is exactly the same; BMs are amazingly tanky with the proper marrow up, but if they're caught purged at an inopportune moment, that BM is going to take 10-11k damage from every magic hit and you won't see them alive much longer.
What's another class that can cause issues, especially now with the new stuns? Barb. Barb can effectively cancel out an entire enemy unit just by spamming the new stun on it. People typically ignore barbs and have the attitude of "it's counter productive to waste time pewpewing a barb instead of picking off squishies; if the barb is on you, it's your responsibility to break free" and at mose people only provide a stun here and there to help out the unfortunate target of the barb. It's not perfect however; a barb will again have difficulty locking a sin or Psychic (one Soul of stunning/Retal and the Psy is free) as well as a couple other classes (Mystic can potentially break free with a pet or plant) and more importantly, the barb becomes the most obvious target of things like sleep and SoG. A barb, as effective as it now is, is doomed to be slept or SoG'ed if it truly begins to become problematic for a team.
Now what about a sin? What do you do if a sin is causing issues and needs to die?
Can you purge it and have the proper DDs focus it like Seeker or BM? No not really.
Can you sleep or SoG it and just ignore it as you go around? No, and whereas sleep discourages a barb from locking a cleric (well, doesn't discourage, but prevents it from happening), a cleric's sleep actually encourages the sin to go kick it's ***; high-value target that can't do ****-ALL against the sin in the midst of a bigger fight? Sounds like a good deal to me.
On top of all this, sins **** chi. If a sin is truly taking too much damage from focus-fire, all it takes is a triple spark and they effectively negate ~3 seconds of their charm cooldown, not to mention this buys ample time for an autopot to re-equip any defense charms. AND the trip spark increases their tankiness AND damage in the coming moments. Hell, grab the nearest Psychic and have them Empowered Vigor the damned thing and it basically -CANNOT- die from focus-fire; it requires some form of oneshot or multiple crits. Sure enough, most of my experiences thusfar, sins have finally died once I crit.
"But Longknife!!! I've seen sins get purged and I've seen sins get focus fired and die!! IT HAPPENS UH LOT!!11!"
Of course, and we could certainly debate how quickly it happens, but my point overall is that even IF you purge a sin and even IF you kill one with focus fire....why the HELL do I feel like in battles I've fought, my team has unanimously spent more time trying to bring down a sin than a seeker, BM or barb? Why the hell is a LA class outperforming the heavies on tankiness? AND damage?
I simply think this needs some obvious review. Over the course of the last few group battles I've seen, sins are becoming increasingly significant. And not the "omg that sin is camping our OP wiz and now our poor wiz can't do -ANYTHING- to save himself, this is BS" sort of significant we've encountered in the past, but this "why the HELL does a sin feel more difficult to kill than any other close-ranged class, even though the others all have superior HP and defense?" Any experienced TWer will tell you Blademasters are absolutely vital in TW for being the front lines and being able to CC like mad. Lately though, fighting sins in group fights feels like fighting BMs. They take just as long to focus down (if not longer), but instead of AOE stuns or DG, the sin simply kills off targets one by one.
That brings me to the second part of this disaster: the Primal skills.
Life Hunter, Elimination, Cursed Jail, Chill of the Deep; all four of them. Whether it be Life Hunter's non-existent cooldown, Elimination or Cursed Jail's APS nature or CoTD additional strength to compliment the sin's abandonment of APS for APS skills, all four pose a serious problem.
Again, let me clarify: PERSONALLY? I actually benefit from Elimination and Cursed Jail. As a Psy, I'm squishy as all hell. All those two skills do, by dividing their damage amongst multiple hits where the last is the hardest hitting? All those do is buy me time to react with Psy will or the like. Hell, one fight I even found myself counting the hits and saving SoR or my defense charm for the final hit, knowing that was the one to fear. They don't need to hit me hard, just hit me. Likewise, while of course SURVIVING is first on the to-do list, the likelihood they'll end the attack with soul of silence on them is pretty respectable. Given that, I'd much prefer being hit by one of these as opposed to a single, immediate hard hit like Headhunt. Even if they're still scary, they at least provide me with MORE chance to react than they used to. So again, I'm not talking 1v1, I'm talking big fights.
So despite the fact that my class lucked out on these two, it's still blatantly obvious that the average player has massive issues combatting these skills. Clerics and archers? I have no idea wtf they're expected to do when attacked with such skills. And even if you survive it, the fact is these are absolutely ****ing spammable, and therein lies the problem. I mean, with my above example I mentioned I actually have a pretty decent shot of Psy willing before the biggest hit of Elimination....but what if they simply save it for when Psy will is off cooldown? That's the issue: even if, EVEN IF you tank this thing, whether it be due to stats, skills or otherwise, the fact of the matter is the average sin is rocking 50%+ crit rate with God of Frenzy daggers, so all it takes is ONE zerk crit in a flurry of attacks and you're dead. The fact of the matter is that even if you manage to survive the first onslaught of attacks, UNLESS the sin is dead, merely having him close to you is like....it's akin to just surviving a game of russian roulette and then deciding to have another go at it.
The result is that whereas having a barb on you spamming that stun is annoying and potentially dangerous, it DOES require constant attention from the barb to an extent that, if a line of DDs off in the distance are seen advancing in order to pick you off or if that situation is ALREADY exceedingly dangerous, your teammates can react by covering you with a stun or the like. A sin? That barb was step one of a multi-part plan to kill you. That sin? That sin is steps one, two, three, four and five, and you absolutely CANNOT rely on your buddies to stun him simply because they CANNOT. Even if they can focus-fire and kill him? This is akin to a TW team ignoring the common sense of ignoring the enemy barb, letting his target-of-choice deal with it, and suddenly the entire battlefield is one team focusing a singular player while the other team takes free potshots.
You all know exactly what I'm talking about. You've all experienced it. I challenge anyone reading this thread to name a single person, player, class, class build or what-have-you that would NOT actively kite full-force if a sin that uses Elimination is on them. That is exactly the problem. This class single-handedly can psyche out anyone and anything, and the ENTIRE support of the team is basically REQUIRED to an extent that's never been seen before. You try to stun? It doesn't work. You try to focus-fire it down? Bam, it just triple sparked and you'll have to try again next charm tick. Every trip spark is another ten seconds the entirety of the enemy DDs have free-range to shoot at you as they please. Kindly stand there like an idiot keeping your eye on him as the enemy DDs pewpew you. Oh, you stopped looking at him and bothering after he trip sparked for a charm tick and instead went to shoot the archer that was shooting at you? The sin just dropped one of your allies in one shot and is now moving on to his second target.
In the past, many people have complained about Seekers. How Seekers can effectively oneshot anyone they want with certain combos. That's the thing though: yes, yes this happens, but the seeker has to actively select YOU as his target of choice to combo. If he doesn't? If he just hits you with nothing but Gemini slash? Well one, it's slow as hell so you can react no problem, two, a lot of people can tank a basic one and three, multiple classes like Psy, sin or wiz can immediately avoid it altogether (Psy will, triple spark or NOPEface + Distance Shrink the other direction). So for as effective as Seekers are....I think most complaints we've seen on the forums are strictly in regards to if you run out and face a seeker as he has everything and the kitchen sink to throw at you. But Seekers tire out. FAST. Suddenly they can't 0 channeling it. Suddenly they can't anti-stun. Suddenly they can't transfer every debuff under the sun to you. SUDDENLY they've attracted the attention of every Psy and veno on the field, and that's around the time that you can expect the seeker to take his exit.
But Elimination is simple. CoTD is simple. Earthen Rift is simple. All of these can just be absolutely spammed/kept on without any excessive effort or focus from the sin. Whereas the seeker is planning out a very elaborate combo to kill an opponent, the sin is smashing is face against his keyboard. I used to refer to Seekers as "TW-capable sins" because of their ability to single out any target of their choosing while taking cover behind their range they have that sins lack (while still being rather squishy), but now....? WTF happened? Why do I feel like sins are absolutely outperforming these guys, both as tanks and as DDs?
Overall, the problem is simple: in the past, the forums only had complaints about sins being oneshot experts that kill people excessively fast with no chance to react from the player. Now? Honestly, I don't mind a sin's damage; I mind their tankiness. I mind that as a squad leader, I feel a good portion of my squad has to drop what they're doing entirely just to focus on some class that can spam the hell out of triple sparks to tank us, but CANNOT be ignored or discounted with "ah ignore him, he's just triple sparking" on par with a "ah ignore him, he's in white voodoo" because the moment you do is the moment he kills someone. There's no "keep your eyes on him and focus him again if he goes into Black voodoo;" no, this single class requires an outrageous amount of attention and focus. It's not about him killing my wiz or cleric, it's about him sitting there and being a pain in the *** that CAN'T be ignored long enough for the enemy Seeker/Wiz/Psychic/Archer to wipe half my team. It's about him somehow managing to be more of an obstacle than a BM, a class DESIGNED to be an obstacle. And whereas any other class in the game, the answer would be "assign the cleric to sleep/SoG him" (mind you, I come from Harshlands server. We've got a dude with 900+ spirit over here), that simply doesn't solve the problem here.
In the past sins have been considered near useless for TW because for as effective as they were, they focused only on singular targets and died very quickly (basically archers without the range or kite ability). So why, suddenly, do I have this feeling that sins might be the single-most valuable class in the game, on ALL fronts? I get that there's an obvious desire to make the class more viable on all fronts seeing how in that past, this thing typically ruled PK but got laughed off the battlefield in TW or any larger-scale fights, but WTF. If it feels like one class is making -ANY- other class completely inferior, doing both it's own job and that of another? There's a problem.
My complaint here is that in the past, sins have been rather unimportant from a TW perspective or a group PVP perspective. Sins were ultimately archers that had this nice little advantage of being able to position themselves around a cata cleric or important enemy DD in any way they like, AKA if you fought a guild with excellent cleric coverage that archers struggled to get through, sins could cover that, but they were inferior to archers in every other category in every possible way. Sins would pop out, get a key kill or at least provide a distraction that halted heals or an enemy advance for a time, but then the sin itself was on a rather clear time limit for how long they could stay put before they'd get absolutely curbstomped and needed to retreat, lest they suffer the focus-fire of a BM with only half of a BM's defenses.
So what's changed?
Several things, but let's start with the biggest one:
First off, buffs are now more important than ever. More base stats = more benefit to your stats from buffs. Back in the day buffs meant 4000 became 6000. Now buffs mean 30,000 becomes 39,000. Archers are a pretty good class, but they're notoriously squishy the moment they lose their buffs. Psychic is arguably the squishiest class in the game, but whereas a Psy circumvents poor defense with various skills and ailments, archers just....don't handle purge well. The result is that archers are arguably one of the first classes to die. It's the curse of their LA; it means purge hurts them more because unbuffed, their defenses are subpar on BOTH counts.
So sins would suffer the same curse right? Wrong. Tidal Protection. Sins are just as squishy if purged, this is true, but good luck actually purging them. The result is that, quite ironically, the average sin is now a better tank than an archer. Sins have gone from being down near the bottom of the tank list next to Psychic and are suddenly a very reasonably tanky class.
Whereas a Psy can only tank as long as they have resistances remaining OR they sacrifice all meaningful damage (AKA their prime usefulness) for survivability....
Whereas BMs, Wizards, Seekers and archers can ABSOLUTELY CRASH AND BURN to a properly timed purge....
Sins have both various means of survivability at their disposal much like a Psy while upholding base stats on par with a BM. That a sin loses it's tankiness the moment it's purged is practically a moot point, both because it's a mere chance for the sin to get purged and because of this, no veno in their right mind will willingly waste a purge on a sin when there's a BM, Seeker, archer or other such class present (AKA all the time). Hell, even IF you decide to try your luck with the purge anyways, that sin has single-handedly become a giant obstacle just because purging and killing him takes a good amount of focus.
The result is that oftentimes, a sin outlives a BM or Seeker. If I see an enemy seeker is causing problems, the solution is quite simple: grab the nearest veno and Psychic and send them both after him. One purge means the Seeker goes from taking ~3ks to ~9ks, not to mention absolutely ridiculous crits. BM is exactly the same; BMs are amazingly tanky with the proper marrow up, but if they're caught purged at an inopportune moment, that BM is going to take 10-11k damage from every magic hit and you won't see them alive much longer.
What's another class that can cause issues, especially now with the new stuns? Barb. Barb can effectively cancel out an entire enemy unit just by spamming the new stun on it. People typically ignore barbs and have the attitude of "it's counter productive to waste time pewpewing a barb instead of picking off squishies; if the barb is on you, it's your responsibility to break free" and at mose people only provide a stun here and there to help out the unfortunate target of the barb. It's not perfect however; a barb will again have difficulty locking a sin or Psychic (one Soul of stunning/Retal and the Psy is free) as well as a couple other classes (Mystic can potentially break free with a pet or plant) and more importantly, the barb becomes the most obvious target of things like sleep and SoG. A barb, as effective as it now is, is doomed to be slept or SoG'ed if it truly begins to become problematic for a team.
Now what about a sin? What do you do if a sin is causing issues and needs to die?
Can you purge it and have the proper DDs focus it like Seeker or BM? No not really.
Can you sleep or SoG it and just ignore it as you go around? No, and whereas sleep discourages a barb from locking a cleric (well, doesn't discourage, but prevents it from happening), a cleric's sleep actually encourages the sin to go kick it's ***; high-value target that can't do ****-ALL against the sin in the midst of a bigger fight? Sounds like a good deal to me.
On top of all this, sins **** chi. If a sin is truly taking too much damage from focus-fire, all it takes is a triple spark and they effectively negate ~3 seconds of their charm cooldown, not to mention this buys ample time for an autopot to re-equip any defense charms. AND the trip spark increases their tankiness AND damage in the coming moments. Hell, grab the nearest Psychic and have them Empowered Vigor the damned thing and it basically -CANNOT- die from focus-fire; it requires some form of oneshot or multiple crits. Sure enough, most of my experiences thusfar, sins have finally died once I crit.
"But Longknife!!! I've seen sins get purged and I've seen sins get focus fired and die!! IT HAPPENS UH LOT!!11!"
Of course, and we could certainly debate how quickly it happens, but my point overall is that even IF you purge a sin and even IF you kill one with focus fire....why the HELL do I feel like in battles I've fought, my team has unanimously spent more time trying to bring down a sin than a seeker, BM or barb? Why the hell is a LA class outperforming the heavies on tankiness? AND damage?
I simply think this needs some obvious review. Over the course of the last few group battles I've seen, sins are becoming increasingly significant. And not the "omg that sin is camping our OP wiz and now our poor wiz can't do -ANYTHING- to save himself, this is BS" sort of significant we've encountered in the past, but this "why the HELL does a sin feel more difficult to kill than any other close-ranged class, even though the others all have superior HP and defense?" Any experienced TWer will tell you Blademasters are absolutely vital in TW for being the front lines and being able to CC like mad. Lately though, fighting sins in group fights feels like fighting BMs. They take just as long to focus down (if not longer), but instead of AOE stuns or DG, the sin simply kills off targets one by one.
That brings me to the second part of this disaster: the Primal skills.
Life Hunter, Elimination, Cursed Jail, Chill of the Deep; all four of them. Whether it be Life Hunter's non-existent cooldown, Elimination or Cursed Jail's APS nature or CoTD additional strength to compliment the sin's abandonment of APS for APS skills, all four pose a serious problem.
Again, let me clarify: PERSONALLY? I actually benefit from Elimination and Cursed Jail. As a Psy, I'm squishy as all hell. All those two skills do, by dividing their damage amongst multiple hits where the last is the hardest hitting? All those do is buy me time to react with Psy will or the like. Hell, one fight I even found myself counting the hits and saving SoR or my defense charm for the final hit, knowing that was the one to fear. They don't need to hit me hard, just hit me. Likewise, while of course SURVIVING is first on the to-do list, the likelihood they'll end the attack with soul of silence on them is pretty respectable. Given that, I'd much prefer being hit by one of these as opposed to a single, immediate hard hit like Headhunt. Even if they're still scary, they at least provide me with MORE chance to react than they used to. So again, I'm not talking 1v1, I'm talking big fights.
So despite the fact that my class lucked out on these two, it's still blatantly obvious that the average player has massive issues combatting these skills. Clerics and archers? I have no idea wtf they're expected to do when attacked with such skills. And even if you survive it, the fact is these are absolutely ****ing spammable, and therein lies the problem. I mean, with my above example I mentioned I actually have a pretty decent shot of Psy willing before the biggest hit of Elimination....but what if they simply save it for when Psy will is off cooldown? That's the issue: even if, EVEN IF you tank this thing, whether it be due to stats, skills or otherwise, the fact of the matter is the average sin is rocking 50%+ crit rate with God of Frenzy daggers, so all it takes is ONE zerk crit in a flurry of attacks and you're dead. The fact of the matter is that even if you manage to survive the first onslaught of attacks, UNLESS the sin is dead, merely having him close to you is like....it's akin to just surviving a game of russian roulette and then deciding to have another go at it.
The result is that whereas having a barb on you spamming that stun is annoying and potentially dangerous, it DOES require constant attention from the barb to an extent that, if a line of DDs off in the distance are seen advancing in order to pick you off or if that situation is ALREADY exceedingly dangerous, your teammates can react by covering you with a stun or the like. A sin? That barb was step one of a multi-part plan to kill you. That sin? That sin is steps one, two, three, four and five, and you absolutely CANNOT rely on your buddies to stun him simply because they CANNOT. Even if they can focus-fire and kill him? This is akin to a TW team ignoring the common sense of ignoring the enemy barb, letting his target-of-choice deal with it, and suddenly the entire battlefield is one team focusing a singular player while the other team takes free potshots.
You all know exactly what I'm talking about. You've all experienced it. I challenge anyone reading this thread to name a single person, player, class, class build or what-have-you that would NOT actively kite full-force if a sin that uses Elimination is on them. That is exactly the problem. This class single-handedly can psyche out anyone and anything, and the ENTIRE support of the team is basically REQUIRED to an extent that's never been seen before. You try to stun? It doesn't work. You try to focus-fire it down? Bam, it just triple sparked and you'll have to try again next charm tick. Every trip spark is another ten seconds the entirety of the enemy DDs have free-range to shoot at you as they please. Kindly stand there like an idiot keeping your eye on him as the enemy DDs pewpew you. Oh, you stopped looking at him and bothering after he trip sparked for a charm tick and instead went to shoot the archer that was shooting at you? The sin just dropped one of your allies in one shot and is now moving on to his second target.
In the past, many people have complained about Seekers. How Seekers can effectively oneshot anyone they want with certain combos. That's the thing though: yes, yes this happens, but the seeker has to actively select YOU as his target of choice to combo. If he doesn't? If he just hits you with nothing but Gemini slash? Well one, it's slow as hell so you can react no problem, two, a lot of people can tank a basic one and three, multiple classes like Psy, sin or wiz can immediately avoid it altogether (Psy will, triple spark or NOPEface + Distance Shrink the other direction). So for as effective as Seekers are....I think most complaints we've seen on the forums are strictly in regards to if you run out and face a seeker as he has everything and the kitchen sink to throw at you. But Seekers tire out. FAST. Suddenly they can't 0 channeling it. Suddenly they can't anti-stun. Suddenly they can't transfer every debuff under the sun to you. SUDDENLY they've attracted the attention of every Psy and veno on the field, and that's around the time that you can expect the seeker to take his exit.
But Elimination is simple. CoTD is simple. Earthen Rift is simple. All of these can just be absolutely spammed/kept on without any excessive effort or focus from the sin. Whereas the seeker is planning out a very elaborate combo to kill an opponent, the sin is smashing is face against his keyboard. I used to refer to Seekers as "TW-capable sins" because of their ability to single out any target of their choosing while taking cover behind their range they have that sins lack (while still being rather squishy), but now....? WTF happened? Why do I feel like sins are absolutely outperforming these guys, both as tanks and as DDs?
Overall, the problem is simple: in the past, the forums only had complaints about sins being oneshot experts that kill people excessively fast with no chance to react from the player. Now? Honestly, I don't mind a sin's damage; I mind their tankiness. I mind that as a squad leader, I feel a good portion of my squad has to drop what they're doing entirely just to focus on some class that can spam the hell out of triple sparks to tank us, but CANNOT be ignored or discounted with "ah ignore him, he's just triple sparking" on par with a "ah ignore him, he's in white voodoo" because the moment you do is the moment he kills someone. There's no "keep your eyes on him and focus him again if he goes into Black voodoo;" no, this single class requires an outrageous amount of attention and focus. It's not about him killing my wiz or cleric, it's about him sitting there and being a pain in the *** that CAN'T be ignored long enough for the enemy Seeker/Wiz/Psychic/Archer to wipe half my team. It's about him somehow managing to be more of an obstacle than a BM, a class DESIGNED to be an obstacle. And whereas any other class in the game, the answer would be "assign the cleric to sleep/SoG him" (mind you, I come from Harshlands server. We've got a dude with 900+ spirit over here), that simply doesn't solve the problem here.
In the past sins have been considered near useless for TW because for as effective as they were, they focused only on singular targets and died very quickly (basically archers without the range or kite ability). So why, suddenly, do I have this feeling that sins might be the single-most valuable class in the game, on ALL fronts? I get that there's an obvious desire to make the class more viable on all fronts seeing how in that past, this thing typically ruled PK but got laughed off the battlefield in TW or any larger-scale fights, but WTF. If it feels like one class is making -ANY- other class completely inferior, doing both it's own job and that of another? There's a problem.
I 
AGOREY
AGOREYPost edited by Longknife - Harshlands on
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Comments
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Qb:shockedQ0
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You really surpassed yourself on this one b:laugh
You forgot to add the poll "Did you read the entire post".0 -
You really surpassed yourself on this one b:laugh
You forgot to add the poll "Did you read the entire post".
None are capable of conquering my walls! b:cool
Now we just need my factionmates/ex-factionmates and other forum-goers who recognize me to come here and verify for everyone that this is the average length of my threads so people don't think "oh he just wrote a lot cuz he mad!!!"I AGOREY0 -
You really surpassed yourself on this one b:laugh
You forgot to add the poll "Did you read the entire post".
rofl
BTT... Meh a few things I disagree with/want to point out, but Ill refrain from doing so.
Still I find it absolutely funny that casters are QQing about a melee class capable of doing what the oped casters have been doing to melee since the very first time I stepped into a mass pvp setting. (TW) Its funny that you all dislike it when a barb, sin or even a bm is capable of tanking a few of you, but when you all are doing it it's fine.
*cough*purifyprocallowingopedcasterstosoloaridicolousamountofpeopleandyetsomanyofyouareabsolutelyadamantaboutkeepingit*cough*
As soon as my apo went away, I died, but at least there I had back up/we weren't fighting for individual rewards.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong I am not saying sins haven't adapted to the new status quo quite well, especially with the new skills in primal world, still, to get to that level of tankiness, they would have to get their gears to the levels of those aforementioned oped casters soloing 20 people. They (As in sins) really are quite a fearsome threat, even to HA users. Of course casters are already quite the threat to melees. :$ xDAh, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0 -
the sin is smashing is face against his keyboard <- This made me laugh because it's true
Tbh, casters shouldn't be the ones complaning (Pury proc fest), but we ALL should... as an EA I'm using LA just like any sin... and die 10x more than an equally geared sin... It's Tidal, all comes from Tidal... OP Primal skills? Yes, there are... but without Tidal they'd be pure crystal-cannons, which is OK!
WIth Tidal we can't jut hit them, debuff them, pury them... and bang-head and we die...
Just for the record, in LC heavy CSers / farmers are already switching from ANY class to sins...
r9rr +12 josd nw S carded Psy's building Sin's... same with ea's, wizards... everyone, and it make sense because in TW, once Rinc appears (naming, no shamig at all) RaidCall goes like "OH! FF on Rinc or... RUN!", yeah, he is a sin with endgame.. THat shouldn't happen when we're fighting 80 vs 80 eng-game + semi-endgame geared squads... IT'S NOT OK!
Still, they will get something new and shiny in next update making them even more OP, we all will build sins... and then they'll switch something again to make sins pure **** and make us re-roll a new class... It's business! And all gear in endgame is no tradable meaning you'll have a huge investment0 -
Long story short, sage tidal is the most broken buff in the game, stay tuned for more breaking news lol0
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Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: » rofl
Its funny that you all dislike it when a barb, sin or even a bm is capable of tanking a few of you, but when you all are doing it it's fine.
Not at all my point. I mean wtf you don't see me complaining at how tanky BMs are with marrow (99% of the time, gotta stun them post-purge to catch this) or how tanky seekers are when buffed. No, that's expected.
My point is that I feel like a sin is absolutely outperforming some of the other melee'ers and that that's rather sad for class and game diversity given that sins basically just get this for free in the form of Tidal Protection.
And again mind you, I don't CS. I'm a squishy target "by choice" in the sense that for example I've put off the r9r ring for ages because it only drops in price whereas things like Dorbs go up. I'm a bad class to ask ANYWAYS when it comes to how difficult it is to tank skills such as Elimination because the Psychic solution is always "avoid the damage entirely." And hell, with that I manage to beat such sins that outgear me quite often. The problem is that when I DO beat these endgame sins? We're still talking fights in excess of 30 seconds. That's 30 seconds I can't do or touch anything not involving killing that sin, and in team fights when the sin has a cleric on him, that's 30 seconds where me AND MULTIPLE OTHERS can't do anything but try to kill that sin (and cleric of course).
But again the point was that lately in group fights, I have this sinking feeling that even if it's an archer or a seeker to ultimately kill my team, it's the sin that was key simply because they provided an undeniable and unavoidable issue long enough for the opposing team to make progress. Personally I don't care if sins are problematic 1v1, but when I start feeling like they're the most effective 1v1 AND one of the most effective group-fight classes? Well, here's this thread. ;PKuruTu - Harshlands wrote: »Long story short, sage tidal is the most broken buff in the game, stay tuned for more breaking news lol
NOW more than ever before. Back in the day the issue was this enabled sins to run away like little girls and made catching them an issue. Now it's both that AND simply landing a purge so you can kill the damned thing; their stats have hit a point where killing them becomes difficult when they're buffed. They're not the oneshots they once were.
To be honest now that I think about it, it's not even really like "Nerf Tidal, it's the only way!" It's "let purge bypass tidal" and viola, problem solved. They can keep the excess damage, constant anti-stun and the rest, but this quasi-purge immunity is starting to make them outshine seekers and BMs on tankiness...r9rr +12 josd nw S carded Psy's building Sin's... same with ea's, wizards... everyone, and it make sense because in TW, once Rinc appears (naming, no shamig at all) RaidCall goes like "OH! FF on Rinc or... RUN!", yeah, he is a sin with endgame.. THat shouldn't happen when we're fighting 80 vs 80 eng-game + semi-endgame geared squads... IT'S NOT OK!
Compare this to he-who-shant-be-named on Harshlands server with 900+ spirit who can oneshot anyone. Immediately SoG locked for the entirety of a battle, no problem whatsoever, just demands SoG spam. You cannot even do that to a sin.I AGOREY0 -
Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »Not at all my point. I mean wtf you don't see me complaining at how tanky BMs are with marrow (99% of the time, gotta stun them post-purge to catch this) or how tanky seekers are when buffed. No, that's expected.
My point is that I feel like a sin is absolutely outperforming some of the other melee'ers and that that's rather sad for class and game diversity given that sins basically just get this for free in the form of Tidal Protection.
And again mind you, I don't CS. I'm a squishy target "by choice" in the sense that for example I've put off the r9r ring for ages because it only drops in price whereas things like Dorbs go up. I'm a bad class to ask ANYWAYS when it comes to how difficult it is to tank skills such as Elimination because the Psychic solution is always "avoid the damage entirely." And hell, with that I manage to beat such sins that outgear me quite often.
But again the point was that lately in group fights, I have this sinking feeling that even if it's an archer or a seeker to ultimately kill my team, it's the sin that was key simply because they provided an undeniable and unavoidable issue long enough for the opposing team to make progress. Personally I don't care if sins are problematic 1v1, but when I start feeling like they're the most effective 1v1 AND one of the most effective group-fight classes? Well, here's this thread. ;P
My apologies for the short/rude post back there, was just put off by a troll in another topic. :$
This is what I take issue with though, I am a bm, and we are not always THAT tanky with marrows up. Especially when they are NOT endgame. The same goes for seekers, though yes they are more tanky than bms especially thanks to their def levels/ability to hit at a distance. Though yes each class has their perks, and their weaknesses that do quite well in taking them down quite a few notches. (Bm's more so... but yea they both do indeed have their rather major drawbacks... and not just the fact that both can be extremely squishy to quite a few casters)
Everything else you said, I mostly agree with you, sins really do have some extremely nice skills for staying alive, and actually killing others with an extraordinary amount of ease.
Still what you say sounds a lot like the annoyances meleers rightfully had with the purify proc when it became mainstream/possible for a few of you all to solo an insane amount of foes. (Though yea this is a bit off topicish... sorry.. easy to get talking about other things that are 'broken'... while discussing anything that's 'broken.')Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0 -
Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »blah blah blah lots of words
I got to the 2nd paragraph and lost interest, sorry. Many aspects of the game are broken. Learn to live with it, or you gotta find a new game. PWE isn't going to fix it anytime soon, if ever at all.
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so basically you're whole thread can be resumed as:
Tidal Protection sucks!!! NERF NERF NERF!
and
Wut the APS changed to DPH gear!!!! OMG PANIC PANIC!!
Change back to squishi aps u filthy sin so i can resume 1 shotting u!
HOW DARE YOU COME TO PVP WITH PVP GEAR! BACK TO APS I SAY!
did i get it right?b:victory0 -
so basically you're whole thread can be resumed as:
Tidal Protection sucks!!! NERF NERF NERF!
and
Wut the APS changed to DPH gear!!!! OMG PANIC PANIC!!
Change back to squishi aps u filthy sin so i can resume 1 shotting u!
HOW DARE YOU COME TO PVP WITH PVP GEAR! BACK TO APS I SAY!
did i get it right?b:victory
Really it's more "Tidal is now making sins better tanks than seekers or BMs, lolwtfbbq."I AGOREY0 -
Why did I open the pwi forum this morning before work,i got bored after the first paragraph..DUDE GET TO THE POINT,i think the thread topic was a better point than this massive hill of text.
lol at your stupid tidal,lets be a tank for a min or 2 when tidal is a %age not a direct chance of evading something. DUHHHH0 -
So in conclusion what you are trying to say is that sage tidal is broken and it should be nerfed, Just like every single other thread ever created about sins being OP, it ends up at sage tidal being the reason, you're just writing it with way too many words.
Not sure if you needed to write an essay about it though, could also just find all threads about sage tidal complaints and link them all in 1 thread saying "hey guys look! sage tidal is OP!"
Apart from it, it's not going to happen.
Another note, other classes have rediculous survivability to the point where a ton of people can jump on them and they simply won't die, due to rediculous defenses.
If not for tidal/focused mind sins would have next to no defense against anything at endgame, where as other classes have their own means to minimize damage.
Well, maybe apart from archers, they have even less.Soon™
Well, maybe later, semi-retired.0 -
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »So in conclusion what you are trying to say is that sage tidal is broken and it should be nerfed, Just like every single other thread ever created about sins being OP, it ends up at sage tidal being the reason, you're just writing it with way too many words.
Not sure if you needed to write an essay about it though, could also just find all threads about sage tidal complaints and link them all in 1 thread saying "hey guys look! sage tidal is OP!"
Apart from it, it's not going to happen.
Another note, other classes have rediculous survivability to the point where a ton of people can jump on them and they simply won't die, due to rediculous defenses.
If not for tidal/focused mind sins would have next to no defense against anything at endgame, where as other classes have their own means to minimize damage.
Well, maybe apart from archers, they have even less.
Ty for remembering about archers U.U We could have some sort of scape skill at least... we are suposed to keep range, and lately that's close to imposible for us... at least imposible if we want to actually shot twice in a row to a target at least0 -
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »So in conclusion what you are trying to say is that sage tidal is broken and it should be nerfed, Just like every single other thread ever created about sins being OP, it ends up at sage tidal being the reason, you're just writing it with way too many words.
Not sure if you needed to write an essay about it though, could also just find all threads about sage tidal complaints and link them all in 1 thread saying "hey guys look! sage tidal is OP!"
But again, now it's not just "omg I can't hold this guy still and he's free to stunlock me." Now it's "omg I can't kill him either." This was why sins controlled PK but not TW.
In the past Sage tidal meant they won 1v1, but sins still ran because sage tidal didn't protect them from damage so all the tab-targeting killed them. Now, with the increasing importance of buffs, it's an issue for an entirely new reason. And now, lo and behold, I find myself telling my squad to focus-fire sins, not BMs. The BM runs in, gets focused and purged and dies after a single stun, the sin pops out, drops one, harasses another, and now suddenly the entirety of the squad is backpedaling just to try and continue focusing this thing without being free easy kills for the opposition.
And what's sad is, as stated, making purge go through would remedy this 100% while still affording sins their damage and kiting abilities, but also as stated, they probably won't do jack. ;P
Main reason for making this was holy **** wtf, this one singular skill is finding new ways to be a massive issue. Moreso than before.I AGOREY0 -
........ :S why now? b:tiredLongknife - Harshlands wrote: »NOW HEAR ME OUT GUIS. Before I start I wanna make it clear this isn't even about 1v1 fights or any standard complaint of how they pop from stealth and omg can't even react. I've spent ages fighting sins and like to think I do a pretty damned good job fighting them 1v1.
My complaint here is that in the past, sins have been rather unimportant from a TW perspective or a group PVP perspective. Sins were ultimately archers that had this nice little advantage of being able to position themselves around a cata cleric or important enemy DD in any way they like, AKA if you fought a guild with excellent cleric coverage that archers struggled to get through, sins could cover that, but they were inferior to archers in every other category in every possible way. Sins would pop out, get a key kill or at least provide a distraction that halted heals or an enemy advance for a time, but then the sin itself was on a rather clear time limit for how long they could stay put before they'd get absolutely curbstomped and needed to retreat, lest they suffer the focus-fire of a BM with only half of a BM's defenses.
So what's changed?
Several things, but let's start with the biggest one:
First off, buffs are now more important than ever. More base stats = more benefit to your stats from buffs. Back in the day buffs meant 4000 became 6000. Now buffs mean 30,000 becomes 39,000. Archers are a pretty good class, but they're notoriously squishy the moment they lose their buffs. Psychic is arguably the squishiest class in the game, but whereas a Psy circumvents poor defense with various skills and ailments, archers just....don't handle purge well. The result is that archers are arguably one of the first classes to die. It's the curse of their LA; it means purge hurts them more because unbuffed, their defenses are subpar on BOTH counts.
So sins would suffer the same curse right? Wrong. Tidal Protection. Sins are just as squishy if purged, this is true, but good luck actually purging them. The result is that, quite ironically, the average sin is now a better tank than an archer. Sins have gone from being down near the bottom of the tank list next to Psychic and are suddenly a very reasonably tanky class.
Whereas a Psy can only tank as long as they have resistances remaining OR they sacrifice all meaningful damage (AKA their prime usefulness) for survivability....
Whereas BMs, Wizards, Seekers and archers can ABSOLUTELY CRASH AND BURN to a properly timed purge....
Sins have both various means of survivability at their disposal much like a Psy while upholding base stats on par with a BM. That a sin loses it's tankiness the moment it's purged is practically a moot point, both because it's a mere chance for the sin to get purged and because of this, no veno in their right mind will willingly waste a purge on a sin when there's a BM, Seeker, archer or other such class present (AKA all the time). Hell, even IF you decide to try your luck with the purge anyways, that sin has single-handedly become a giant obstacle just because purging and killing him takes a good amount of focus.
The result is that oftentimes, a sin outlives a BM or Seeker. If I see an enemy seeker is causing problems, the solution is quite simple: grab the nearest veno and Psychic and send them both after him. One purge means the Seeker goes from taking ~3ks to ~9ks, not to mention absolutely ridiculous crits. BM is exactly the same; BMs are amazingly tanky with the proper marrow up, but if they're caught purged at an inopportune moment, that BM is going to take 10-11k damage from every magic hit and you won't see them alive much longer.
What's another class that can cause issues, especially now with the new stuns? Barb. Barb can effectively cancel out an entire enemy unit just by spamming the new stun on it. People typically ignore barbs and have the attitude of "it's counter productive to waste time pewpewing a barb instead of picking off squishies; if the barb is on you, it's your responsibility to break free" and at mose people only provide a stun here and there to help out the unfortunate target of the barb. It's not perfect however; a barb will again have difficulty locking a sin or Psychic (one Soul of stunning/Retal and the Psy is free) as well as a couple other classes (Mystic can potentially break free with a pet or plant) and more importantly, the barb becomes the most obvious target of things like sleep and SoG. A barb, as effective as it now is, is doomed to be slept or SoG'ed if it truly begins to become problematic for a team.
Now what about a sin? What do you do if a sin is causing issues and needs to die?
Can you purge it and have the proper DDs focus it like Seeker or BM? No not really.
Can you sleep or SoG it and just ignore it as you go around? No, and whereas sleep discourages a barb from locking a cleric (well, doesn't discourage, but prevents it from happening), a cleric's sleep actually encourages the sin to go kick it's ***; high-value target that can't do ****-ALL against the sin in the midst of a bigger fight? Sounds like a good deal to me.
On top of all this, sins **** chi. If a sin is truly taking too much damage from focus-fire, all it takes is a triple spark and they effectively negate ~3 seconds of their charm cooldown, not to mention this buys ample time for an autopot to re-equip any defense charms. AND the trip spark increases their tankiness AND damage in the coming moments. Hell, grab the nearest Psychic and have them Empowered Vigor the damned thing and it basically -CANNOT- die from focus-fire; it requires some form of oneshot or multiple crits. Sure enough, most of my experiences thusfar, sins have finally died once I crit.
"But Longknife!!! I've seen sins get purged and I've seen sins get focus fired and die!! IT HAPPENS UH LOT!!11!"
Of course, and we could certainly debate how quickly it happens, but my point overall is that even IF you purge a sin and even IF you kill one with focus fire....why the HELL do I feel like in battles I've fought, my team has unanimously spent more time trying to bring down a sin than a seeker, BM or barb? Why the hell is a LA class outperforming the heavies on tankiness? AND damage?
I simply think this needs some obvious review. Over the course of the last few group battles I've seen, sins are becoming increasingly significant. And not the "omg that sin is camping our OP wiz and now our poor wiz can't do -ANYTHING- to save himself, this is BS" sort of significant we've encountered in the past, but this "why the HELL does a sin feel more difficult to kill than any other close-ranged class, even though the others all have superior HP and defense?" Any experienced TWer will tell you Blademasters are absolutely vital in TW for being the front lines and being able to CC like mad. Lately though, fighting sins in group fights feels like fighting BMs. They take just as long to focus down (if not longer), but instead of AOE stuns or DG, the sin simply kills off targets one by one.
That brings me to the second part of this disaster: the Primal skills.
Life Hunter, Elimination, Cursed Jail, Chill of the Deep; all four of them. Whether it be Life Hunter's non-existent cooldown, Elimination or Cursed Jail's APS nature or CoTD additional strength to compliment the sin's abandonment of APS for APS skills, all four pose a serious problem.
Again, let me clarify: PERSONALLY? I actually benefit from Elimination and Cursed Jail. As a Psy, I'm squishy as all hell. All those two skills do, by dividing their damage amongst multiple hits where the last is the hardest hitting? All those do is buy me time to react with Psy will or the like. Hell, one fight I even found myself counting the hits and saving SoR or my defense charm for the final hit, knowing that was the one to fear. They don't need to hit me hard, just hit me. Likewise, while of course SURVIVING is first on the to-do list, the likelihood they'll end the attack with soul of silence on them is pretty respectable. Given that, I'd much prefer being hit by one of these as opposed to a single, immediate hard hit like Headhunt. Even if they're still scary, they at least provide me with MORE chance to react than they used to. So again, I'm not talking 1v1, I'm talking big fights.
So despite the fact that my class lucked out on these two, it's still blatantly obvious that the average player has massive issues combatting these skills. Clerics and archers? I have no idea wtf they're expected to do when attacked with such skills. And even if you survive it, the fact is these are absolutely ****ing spammable, and therein lies the problem. I mean, with my above example I mentioned I actually have a pretty decent shot of Psy willing before the biggest hit of Elimination....but what if they simply save it for when Psy will is off cooldown? That's the issue: even if, EVEN IF you tank this thing, whether it be due to stats, skills or otherwise, the fact of the matter is the average sin is rocking 50%+ crit rate with God of Frenzy daggers, so all it takes is ONE zerk crit in a flurry of attacks and you're dead. The fact of the matter is that even if you manage to survive the first onslaught of attacks, UNLESS the sin is dead, merely having him close to you is like....it's akin to just surviving a game of russian roulette and then deciding to have another go at it.
The result is that whereas having a barb on you spamming that stun is annoying and potentially dangerous, it DOES require constant attention from the barb to an extent that, if a line of DDs off in the distance are seen advancing in order to pick you off or if that situation is ALREADY exceedingly dangerous, your teammates can react by covering you with a stun or the like. A sin? That barb was step one of a multi-part plan to kill you. That sin? That sin is steps one, two, three, four and five, and you absolutely CANNOT rely on your buddies to stun him simply because they CANNOT. Even if they can focus-fire and kill him? This is akin to a TW team ignoring the common sense of ignoring the enemy barb, letting his target-of-choice deal with it, and suddenly the entire battlefield is one team focusing a singular player while the other team takes free potshots.
You all know exactly what I'm talking about. You've all experienced it. I challenge anyone reading this thread to name a single person, player, class, class build or what-have-you that would NOT actively kite full-force if a sin that uses Elimination is on them. That is exactly the problem. This class single-handedly can psyche out anyone and anything, and the ENTIRE support of the team is basically REQUIRED to an extent that's never been seen before. You try to stun? It doesn't work. You try to focus-fire it down? Bam, it just triple sparked and you'll have to try again next charm tick. Every trip spark is another ten seconds the entirety of the enemy DDs have free-range to shoot at you as they please. Kindly stand there like an idiot keeping your eye on him as the enemy DDs pewpew you. Oh, you stopped looking at him and bothering after he trip sparked for a charm tick and instead went to shoot the archer that was shooting at you? The sin just dropped one of your allies in one shot and is now moving on to his second target.
In the past, many people have complained about Seekers. How Seekers can effectively oneshot anyone they want with certain combos. That's the thing though: yes, yes this happens, but the seeker has to actively select YOU as his target of choice to combo. If he doesn't? If he just hits you with nothing but Gemini slash? Well one, it's slow as hell so you can react no problem, two, a lot of people can tank a basic one and three, multiple classes like Psy, sin or wiz can immediately avoid it altogether (Psy will, triple spark or NOPEface + Distance Shrink the other direction). So for as effective as Seekers are....I think most complaints we've seen on the forums are strictly in regards to if you run out and face a seeker as he has everything and the kitchen sink to throw at you. But Seekers tire out. FAST. Suddenly they can't 0 channeling it. Suddenly they can't anti-stun. Suddenly they can't transfer every debuff under the sun to you. SUDDENLY they've attracted the attention of every Psy and veno on the field, and that's around the time that you can expect the seeker to take his exit.
But Elimination is simple. CoTD is simple. Earthen Rift is simple. All of these can just be absolutely spammed/kept on without any excessive effort or focus from the sin. Whereas the seeker is planning out a very elaborate combo to kill an opponent, the sin is smashing is face against his keyboard. I used to refer to Seekers as "TW-capable sins" because of their ability to single out any target of their choosing while taking cover behind their range they have that sins lack (while still being rather squishy), but now....? WTF happened? Why do I feel like sins are absolutely outperforming these guys, both as tanks and as DDs?
Overall, the problem is simple: in the past, the forums only had complaints about sins being oneshot experts that kill people excessively fast with no chance to react from the player. Now? Honestly, I don't mind a sin's damage; I mind their tankiness. I mind that as a squad leader, I feel a good portion of my squad has to drop what they're doing entirely just to focus on some class that can spam the hell out of triple sparks to tank us, but CANNOT be ignored or discounted with "ah ignore him, he's just triple sparking" on par with a "ah ignore him, he's in white voodoo" because the moment you do is the moment he kills someone. There's no "keep your eyes on him and focus him again if he goes into Black voodoo;" no, this single class requires an outrageous amount of attention and focus. It's not about him killing my wiz or cleric, it's about him sitting there and being a pain in the *** that CAN'T be ignored long enough for the enemy Seeker/Wiz/Psychic/Archer to wipe half my team. It's about him somehow managing to be more of an obstacle than a BM, a class DESIGNED to be an obstacle. And whereas any other class in the game, the answer would be "assign the cleric to sleep/SoG him" (mind you, I come from Harshlands server. We've got a dude with 900+ spirit over here), that simply doesn't solve the problem here.
In the past sins have been considered near useless for TW because for as effective as they were, they focused only on singular targets and died very quickly (basically archers without the range or kite ability). So why, suddenly, do I have this feeling that sins might be the single-most valuable class in the game, on ALL fronts? I get that there's an obvious desire to make the class more viable on all fronts seeing how in that past, this thing typically ruled PK but got laughed off the battlefield in TW or any larger-scale fights, but WTF. If it feels like one class is making -ANY- other class completely inferior, doing both it's own job and that of another? There's a problem.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]lagunal8.deviantart.com
★"New weekly quests! "Discover the bug in the patch""-Nihillae★"My father would beat me if he found out I was QQing over a virtual pony."-Neurosis★"You're amongst the biggest blobs of fail I've ever seen in my life."-Ninnuam★"A statistic said 3% people of the world get enjoyment primarily from making people upset, and you are trying to discriminate them"-ilystah★["How To Tank Rebirth Order Delta (86+)"-Stickygreen Barb (1)restat. you want full magic, Arcane armour build (2)when mobs come /faceroll on your keyboard and you will one shot all the mobs (3)rinse and repeat]★"I've been spammed with 3 poops for 2 hours."-ColdSteele★"If someone fights learning, I don't bother with them outside of amusement factor."-Telarith★"This thread is a joke right? Please say yes."-eatwithspoons★ "This is why you don't post your opinions on the internet, most of the replies you get will be from people who missed a hug or two sometime in their youth."-Alacol★"Sexy! A post with a Binomial Distribution."-Asterelle★"It's about time PW starts to separate out the noob Sins from the rest."-salvati0n★"Shoo troll >:O"-TheDan0 -
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+1 to pretty much everything said by Longknife
except the fact that elimination doesnt split the damage into 5 hits, since its 320% base physical damage and last hit its 120% base damage by itself...
elimination is a def charm counter+nuke
the point is it has been given the strongest damage burst to the only unpurgeable class in game
that sh.t is broken man b:surrendermypers.pw/1.7/#123510
mypers.pw/1.7/#123524
i58.tinypic.com/231jj8.jpg0 -
I mostly agree with LongKnife too. And my main is a sin.
I cannot complain, of course I love the new possibilities of sin but we are broken, that's true. Deny it won t be honest.
I was squishy, I am now 50% half less squishy. Reason: We can kill faster. So sometimes, deaden nerves is still on us, we can stay longer in a battle. Tidal is today broken because we can put down an enemy faster. The real problem is the new skills OP (I love it btw, i am a sin, and I profite of that broken opportunity
)
I know Elimination is insanly OP. But I reassure you, only few people got it already. The best sin in my faction dont still get it. Reason: really hard to get puncture wound, and if someone sell it in world chat, even for 300kk, it dispears instantly.
I m runnning Aba like everyday for a long time now, and 10-15 times by day. Dont get yet.
So Elimination is too OP but it is rare too. It is like comparing a full JoSD class and a non-full JoSD class. With nowadays' price and the rarety of DoD this time on shops, it is really hard to get a full JoSD. Older characters got DoD for 10-30kk in the old time. So now it is really hard to get that sort of stuff and people who already got have the best survavibility. But one time again, it is a rare thing nowadays too.
To sum:
Elimination, really rare => better survavibility
Full JoSD, really rare(new characters) => better survavibility
Everyone who spent hard time to improve their characters will be OP no matter what....0 -
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THANK YOU, THANK YOU.
as a JoSD cleric i have watched my toon go from being sin ready, to being sin food. i listed the fights, the stats and the elimination problem that is compounded by the never ending zerk crit single stat syndrome. let's see how the trolls attack this thread.0 -
odieuxconnard wrote: »
To sum:
Elimination, really rare => better survavibility
Full JoSD, really rare(new characters) => better survavibility
Everyone who spent hard time to improve their characters will be OP no matter what....
Just because something is not commonplace (full JOSD, Primal skills or otherwise) doesn't mean that it should be discounted. Have you seen the threads asking for those skills (and the psychic ones) to be made more readily available? I wouldn't be surprised if they become more commonplace someday "soon".
What happens then?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Remember: OP may be a duck|OP/GMs/Devs may not deliver|Search function is your friend|Lurk more|Be wary of Mods: they can't be trusted|This place isn't a hugbox|Your tears sustain me|Know what Bait is|"Soon" may never come|Postcount, Dubs, and other GETs are important|Don't revive long dead threads|There is a section for everything|You can be banned for anything|No Fun Allowed outside of OT|Sweetiebot rules OT|"Circlejerks" are inevitable|Threads can be derailed and saved|Those who use"XD" should off themselves at their earliest convenience|0 -
Join my squad, Socqar, let's cook sins altogether b:chuckleSocqar - Lost City wrote: »and it make sense because in TW...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
youtube.com/elmarise
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While I agree with some pionts on this, there are others I think you are forgetting factors of.
Lets face it, 95-99% of sins dont have Elimination or Life Hunter. I sure as hell don't, the last sage twin strike book i saw went for 275m, on top of that there is farming the bloods. Sage tidal is strong mind you, but is every DPH sin sage? NO. Some of us have actually learned to survive this focus fire we get in TW. I only have +7-+10 gears and I can stay out of stealth in a group of enemies a good 30sec to a minute, if charmed, mainly because I have become so used to the stuff that is thrown at me, and this is against +12 NW recasted peeps.
One of the problems here isn't you can't CC the sin, it's that people are either too afraid to try, or the are too busy assuming they can one shot said sin, and are discouraged when that doesn't happen. Sins tactics have changed, but people keep assuming that every sin is the same, and they can kill them all the same way. I've had it happen to me, where a mystic says they can 1 shot me with absorb soul, only to fall a few thousand short on a damage test.
Yes, sins are more tanky than ever with def passives combined with tidal.
Yes, the new skills are nice when dealing with spammed def charms.
No, the only problem isn't the sin, it's how people deal with sins.
Assuming you can focus down a sin, is like assuming you can focus down a barb, that has invoke...and 2 sparks ready for you. A sin isn't a barb mind you, but don't assume they will just go down easy, especially ones that are used to getting blasted in TW like myself.0 -
Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »Just because something is not commonplace (full JOSD, Primal skills or otherwise) doesn't mean that it should be discounted. Have you seen the threads asking for those skills (and the psychic ones) to be made more readily available? I wouldn't be surprised if they become more commonplace someday "soon".
What happens then?
Aren't twin stike & Puncture wound in the bidding hall in Pw-CN? So wouldn't that mean that pretty soon it'll be here, and then well everyone's gonna have it.I A lot of people0 -
Cytte - Harshlands wrote: »Aren't they in the bidding hall in Pw-CN?
No, they are drop only in all version of PWI.0 -
DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »No, they are drop only in all version of PWI.
Weird, thought i heard somewhere thats its being added to Chinas bidding hall.I A lot of people0 -
Marengo - Lost City wrote: »Join my squad, Socqar, let's cook sins altogether b:chuckle Perhaps with 3 venos + r9 ea's we can, with luck, purge a sin! YAY! Let's just kill their bm's... better cost-effect xD Sins will live anywayDionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »No, they are drop only in all version of PWI.
According to last new from PW-CN, those skills are in Bidding hall. No screenshot to confrm though... Worth a look those who can/know how use PW-CN0 -
Socqar - Lost City wrote: »
According to last new from PW-CN, those skills are in Bidding hall. No screenshot to confrm though... Worth a look those who can/know how use PW-CN
Worth looking into then.0
Why now? 
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