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[PC] Bugged Self Buffs on the Asterdahl Classes

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  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 224Member Arc User
    edited August 23
    > @tom#6998 said:
    > (Quote)
    > warlock doesnt have any signifcant DoT, idk what u are talking about.

    ^^


    Mod 15 dot damage was a large base of overall damage with creeping death and murderous flames both aoe and single target.

    Mod 16 spark, curse, dot is insignificant. No one uses hellish rebuke for small dot because npnm is the only reason to even use that atwill.

    Encounter dots are just bad compared to any burst class and a poor implementation all around to be useful this mod. No one uses dreadtheft in its current state, previously good for templock. Dot from hg is bad and isnt why it's used, si stacks are since its the only encounter to get stacks besides killing a mob with kf and only reliable chance warlocks have of getting any real damage increase.
    Hellfire ring dot with such a small area, only initial hit curses, small initial hit, slow to activate, and requiring mobs to sit in it to be actually useful. It's more usefull for spark generation than anything else.

    Overall dots are insignificant portion of damage on warlocks. Other dps class dot do more damage.

    Warlocks are now a one trick pony, si stacks. Brutal to build up let alone maintain to actually be useful.
    Even with all the dot encounters they are all a minimal overall damage % and only used to apply curses, si stacks, with killing flames being the lions share of damage.
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • samunaj#5088 samunaj Posts: 2Member Arc User
    edited August 24
    tom#6998 said:


    Do u really try to claim that BIS gear, etc shouldnt have any noticable impact on your character? Because thats what it sounds like to me. Ofc the "average" casual player, with average gear wont deal as much dmg as a fully optimised char. If that were the case, u could delete character progression all together, because whats the point of even improving your character when u get nothing for it?

    I would propose, that a skilled player having finished undermountain and equipped with L10-12 enchantments should be able to deal 70% to 80% of the dmg of a top player. I would estimate, that this gap is currently MUCH higher.

    I know, this is easier said then done. And for sure I see the need to have a noticable effect from top gear.

    I just wanted to express, that while the above "average" player finishes undermountain with about 100k power, CA uncapped (say ~70k) and only few bonusses, a top player has near 200k power, all stats capped and every bonus and these effects multiply with each other, which is a problem.
    Post edited by samunaj#5088 on
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Posts: 371Member Arc User
    An experienced player learns by experience (or by the grapevine), which skills & items work & or proc with each other or are bugged. This knowledge is so critical. With this knowledge, you can double your power over what general math skills tell a new (but smart) player is the best build.
  • samunaj#5088 samunaj Posts: 2Member Arc User
    edited August 24
    That just adds to the argument, that already the math favours the top player too much
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Posts: 251Member Arc User
    mongol69 said:


    Warlocks are now a one trick pony, si stacks. Brutal to build up let alone maintain to actually be useful.

    Even with all the dot encounters they are all a minimal overall damage % and only used to apply curses, si stacks, with killing flames being the lions share of damage.

    This sums up the warlock really well.

    Maybe TOMM will be different but I rarely get to 5 stacks. Boss fights that go long enough to build up all stacks have a delay mechanic that force your SI stacks to drop. LOMM, FBI, MSVA, CR, TONG, CODG all have longish boss fights that at around the 4/5 stack point begin a new phase where they are immune or at least can't be targeted and it lasts.... just long enough for you to lose your SI stacks.

    Shorter boss fights aren't worth trying, other DPS classes kill it before you hit 2 or 3 stacks.

    Another major issue to take up is the Shadow slip priority. It should always be first priority, some of our at wills are slow to cast so if you see an attack coming after casting the at-will, well, too bad. Hope you have health stones or a good healer (not a warlock).

    @asterdahl @noworries#8859 Please add this factor into your next balance pass.
    kalina311 said:

    ... dare I say this alone probably wasted / will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars of dev testing time that could have been better spent elsewhere. ... Let alone the players time you wasted that had the passion to test all the classes and changes for the new mod 16/17 and now they have to do it all again ..again

    Mayby not a loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars but it is thousands of dollars of extra work and lost time that really isn't needed.

    And I wasn't kidding when I said you guys should hire Janne, Sharpedge and Co. to do your testing.
    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • masterogamasteroga Posts: 254Member Arc User
    Making Crit Sev into its own buff will cement vorpal as the only viable weapon enchantment. There will be virtually no amount of strengthening the other enchant that will let them catch up
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Posts: 140Member Arc User
    edited August 27
    important thing: the diference between a dps using a offensive class feature and a defender using a defensive class feature will create some gap of damage that can affect the threat thing. that alread happens if you have a diference of gears between both roles today. so, improve threat by a superior margin.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,084Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    masteroga said:

    Making Crit Sev into its own buff will cement vorpal as the only viable weapon enchantment. There will be virtually no amount of strengthening the other enchant that will let them catch up

    Vorpal is already the best weapon enchant anyways, as the unique effects (not the "deal x% of damage as insert flavor text damage" part) on all other enchants are not very useful to begin with.

    ---

    While this is slightly off topic, I recall we said some things about the state of weapon enchants in the Mod 16 beta test. Things like "deal 5 magnitude damage every second as a DoT" or "gain 2000 defense and heal people for negligible amounts of HP every couple of seconds with a long internal cooldown" suffer from a bad case of "power level overestimated".

    However, I don't think anything was or will be done, as it seemed the devs were fairly content with state of weapon enchants. I remember the example cited was "people will use Plaguefire instead of Vorpal on Crit builds because they can stack 2000 less Crit Strike" (ask @thefabricant for the exact wording).

    As for lowering the gap between weapon enchants, I would love to see some form of rgutcheradev's Mod 11.5 proc based weapon enchants return (minus Feytouched's "free 20% damage for attacking").

    The proc based enchants of 11.5 would be somewhat useful now that rotating generally involves lots of "hold down or mash your low damage At-wills", of which was the main reason they worked so well on GWF (remember that GWF had high weapon damage and lots of buffs, but low magnitudes on their abilities).

    However, I doubt they would return because of the universal "deal (x)% of your damage as [flavor text] damage" is supposed to "balance" the DPS of all weapon enchants and your "choice" is supposed to be based on the secondary effects.

  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,234 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    I haven't actually tried the new raid yet but from what I understand we can't afford to actively lose any damage.. :)

    Regardless of how player damage changes, we will be making corresponding adjustments to Halaster's health if necessary. When we are ready for these changes to go to preview, we'd like to work with those players who were tremendously helpful testing ToMM on preview to validate that the changes don't have a measurable effect on time-to-kill, so that the DPS checks and enrage do not become any harder or easier than they are right now. These adjustments are not meant to make the trial more or less difficult.
  • betepok#5883 betepok Posts: 9Member Arc User
    I hope the new changes that u are planing will allow other dps classes(sw, barb, fighter) make equal damage to cw-tr-hr. because what i've seen, the only classes that ppl are looking for tomm are CW,HR,TR. At the last video that i saw , team has 6 CW Carl. So barb and fighter are litterally useless in the game as dps.
  • hrakhhrakh Posts: 101Member Arc User
    edited September 4
    asterdahl said:

    --snipping for brevity--
    Regardless of how player damage changes, we will be making corresponding adjustments to Halaster's health if necessary. When we are ready for these changes to go to preview, we'd like to work with those players who were tremendously helpful testing ToMM on preview to validate that the changes don't have a measurable effect on time-to-kill, so that the DPS checks and enrage do not become any harder or easier than they are right now. These adjustments are not meant to make the trial more or less difficult.

    @asterdahl while I can understand and support the idea of working with people that are a known good, it may also be wise to additionally look at the pool of other people that have managed to finish ToMM on live and see if you can get some of them to test with you. Using and re-using the same very limited pool of players risks introducing a bias that, aside from the needless (and IMO unwarranted) toxicity it injects in debates, also makes your results less valuable.
    I would also suggest you pay attention to the class/role variety, but evidence up till now has shown that to likely be impossible as there seems to be too little of that variation among the pool of classes and roles finishing ToMM.

    (edit: Of course you probably have the actual numbers, would it be possible to publish a breakdown of classes and their roles that have finishes ToMM? something like: 18 DPS Wizards, 6 Tank Paladins, etc. )

  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 181Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    I haven't actually tried the new raid yet but from what I understand we can't afford to actively lose any damage.. :)

    Regardless of how player damage changes, we will be making corresponding adjustments to Halaster's health if necessary. When we are ready for these changes to go to preview, we'd like to work with those players who were tremendously helpful testing ToMM on preview to validate that the changes don't have a measurable effect on time-to-kill, so that the DPS checks and enrage do not become any harder or easier than they are right now. These adjustments are not meant to make the trial more or less difficult.
    Thank you for your feedback to the community. As you would know that currently some classes are unable to play at least 1 of their paragons in TOMM and get vastly outperformed by the top DPS classes to be viable in PVP. I understand the reasoning to go about this change slow and steadily i.e. the new damage formula but that is not mutually exclusive to taking minor steps to mitigate the damage this inaccuracy will cause to end game players.

    The easiest solution would be a small minor buffs to dps paths of warlocks, clerics and Barbarians, to make them viable at least in TOMM as DPS. You could obviously revert these change when the damage formula has been released but at least you will be at your comfort to take as much time as is required for this meticulous matter. As a Arbiter cleric main, i can say that we probably require the least amount of change to be viable as dps in TOMM. It might seem more work now, but it definitely will bear fruit in the long term if you have enough time at your hands to complete the damage formula. I know for a matter of fact that if i am unable to do TOMM as BiS DPS cleric, i am going to take a break for a long time or perhaps forever, with a foul experience.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 181Member Arc User
    edited September 4
    ....

  • rafaeldarafaelda Posts: 612Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I hope the new changes that u are planing will allow other dps classes(sw, barb, fighter) make equal damage to cw-tr-hr. because what i've seen, the only classes that ppl are looking for tomm are CW,HR,TR. At the last video that i saw , team has 6 CW Carl. So barb and fighter are litterally useless in the game as dps.

    If you read the firt post from Devs on this tread you will see that is the inverse, (or at least that is the impression i get) it will nerf Wizards Rogues and Rangers to the level of other classes... unfortunally seem that it will also hit warlocks that are already low on dmg too...
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,166Member Arc User
    edited September 4
    asterdahl said:

    I haven't actually tried the new raid yet but from what I understand we can't afford to actively lose any damage.. :)

    Regardless of how player damage changes, we will be making corresponding adjustments to Halaster's health if necessary. When we are ready for these changes to go to preview, we'd like to work with those players who were tremendously helpful testing ToMM on preview to validate that the changes don't have a measurable effect on time-to-kill, so that the DPS checks and enrage do not become any harder or easier than they are right now. These adjustments are not meant to make the trial more or less difficult.
    The issue with having those player test is that they were using the broken damage dealing classes to beat ToMM and not one of the more balanced classes. In reality ToMM should be a bit harder than it is on live.
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Posts: 1,361Member Arc User

    asterdahl said:

    I haven't actually tried the new raid yet but from what I understand we can't afford to actively lose any damage.. :)

    Regardless of how player damage changes, we will be making corresponding adjustments to Halaster's health if necessary. When we are ready for these changes to go to preview, we'd like to work with those players who were tremendously helpful testing ToMM on preview to validate that the changes don't have a measurable effect on time-to-kill, so that the DPS checks and enrage do not become any harder or easier than they are right now. These adjustments are not meant to make the trial more or less difficult.
    The issue with having those player test is that they were using the broken damage dealing classes to beat ToMM and not one of the more balanced classes. In reality ToMM should be a bit harder than it is on live.
    Would it not make complete sense to have the same testers to tell them if the end result is the same difficulty? Dev clearly states they want the changes to not have a measurable effect on trial aspects.

    Does it also not make sense to have these same testers running the same classes they ran during testing to maintain consistency in the new tests?

    Also, speaking from your experiences in running ToMM, you find it's too easy and needs to be made more difficult?
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Posts: 1,210Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    No but what they should do, to make certain that everything is balanced, is to take groups of all possible class/paragon groupings to make totally certain that all group mixtures can meet the dps check requirements of the dungeon. Still keeping the 3,1,1 ratio for both parties of course.
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Posts: 1,361Member Arc User

    No but what they should do, to make certain that everything is balanced, is to take groups of all possible class/paragon groupings to make totally certain that all group mixtures can meet the dps check requirements of the dungeon. Still keeping the 3,1,1 ratio for both parties of course.

    And if they used different classes or players this go around then the new data can't be compared to the old data.

    What the dev requested does not sound at all out of the norm. Wwhat you guys are suggesting would just make testing the trial more cumbersome.

    I would also think that once the new "testing phase" concludes the changes would be released to preview for all others to test.

    Then it's up to the community to get in there and test and give feedback or not.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 181Member Arc User


    This change will increase player damage by ~33%, which means we will need to do an increase to critter health to compensate.

    Does this mean that the damage difference between the top 3 DPS classes and the other classes will be the same as it is now? Since the damage is going up by 33% for all of them instead lets say, going up by 33% for other classes and 20-25% for the top 3 DPS classes.
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 346Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Just 3 weeks of vacation and look at this mess :D

    I wrote a wall fo text to comment that, but I deleted that after a while.

    Its not worthy to waist time for this - its gona end up as always
  • rafaeldarafaelda Posts: 612Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:


    This change will increase player damage by ~33%, which means we will need to do an increase to critter health to compensate.

    Does this mean that the damage difference between the top 3 DPS classes and the other classes will be the same as it is now? Since the damage is going up by 33% for all of them instead lets say, going up by 33% for other classes and 20-25% for the top 3 DPS classes.
    The diference exist now because they have diferent way to add/multioply buffs, ith all classes using the same Math the diference should go away, after the change we will need a new DPS tuning based on base dmg and cooldowns i belive....
  • b3llist0rb3llist0r Posts: 183Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    I haven't actually tried the new raid yet but from what I understand we can't afford to actively lose any damage.. :)

    Regardless of how player damage changes, we will be making corresponding adjustments to Halaster's health if necessary. When we are ready for these changes to go to preview, we'd like to work with those players who were tremendously helpful testing ToMM on preview to validate that the changes don't have a measurable effect on time-to-kill, so that the DPS checks and enrage do not become any harder or easier than they are right now. These adjustments are not meant to make the trial more or less difficult.
    When? What is the expected ETA for this? At the moment the whole class system is f"§$%&/ed up. DPS calculated differently depending on the dev who reworked the class and then there is this unknwon/mysterious power/crit balance thing for healers... what is that? Did I missed some news?
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 346Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    b3llist0r said:

    asterdahl said:

    I haven't actually tried the new raid yet but from what I understand we can't afford to actively lose any damage.. :)

    Regardless of how player damage changes, we will be making corresponding adjustments to Halaster's health if necessary. When we are ready for these changes to go to preview, we'd like to work with those players who were tremendously helpful testing ToMM on preview to validate that the changes don't have a measurable effect on time-to-kill, so that the DPS checks and enrage do not become any harder or easier than they are right now. These adjustments are not meant to make the trial more or less difficult.
    When? What is the expected ETA for this? At the moment the whole class system is f"§$%&/ed up. DPS calculated differently depending on the dev who reworked the class and then there is this unknwon/mysterious power/crit balance thing for healers... what is that? Did I missed some news?
    Nope, but you simply forgot that you are playing "Neverworking"....
  • rafaeldarafaelda Posts: 612Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    i'm nt wating for this before next mod... maybe with next mod, so they can sent i to preview and text both new stuff and new dps formula at same time...
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 346Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    @rafaelda I belive we can assume as you stated above.

    But the real problem is time. All that situation is partialy - our own fault.

    Since a very beggining we knew that we got MMO game with D&D background in heands of developer class "B".
    So from the very beggining we should assume troubles - BUT - we loved D&D and this game was also unique cos of foundry and gateway. Both of those make this game special. But all those issues coused with "class B" developer was already out there - long time waiting for sorting out bugs or never existing quality department etc. - but less severe as it is now. On top of that this game was always part of WoTC products advertisement. That is also a burden for developer team .

    When game started to loose players for different reasons, Cryptic started too loose income from the game while still having obligations for WoTC. So they decided to cut off all unique (but not generating income while absorbing resources) features this game had. What is also important in time developers who actually designed lot of this game systems was gone, their replacements couldnt handle that. So they decided to rework game to ba as easy to run for them as possible, with the use of as few resources as possible. As we can see now - that project was already beyond Cryptic capabilities.

    Really, show me any other MMOs where devs release major updates so full of bugs and critical failures as creating classes on different mechanical background? I doubt you gona find any, but I am certian that even if there were similar issues players didnt have to wait for solution for 6 months+

    So why it is also our own fault - becouse we knew how it is working, becouse we seen what is happening. And becouse from the very beggining we couldnt sort out developers-players relations. Now it is simply too late for that.

    Also I belive that Cryptic have a strict schedule from WoTC they have to hold on to, and that is their frist priority. With so scarce resources they seem to have left - it is no suprise that even the smallest fixes are taking weeks while anything more complicated months. (not to mention bugs considered to be "not game breaking" or irrelevant according to devs point of view - those wait even years.

    That all taken together makes me think, that this game with MOD 16 entered silent maintenance mode.
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Posts: 107Member Arc User
    Really all they should have done is change buffs to additive and add lots of more content & events. Maybe with more resources they could have done more, maybe it looked better on paper and that's why they tried to stick to it, but now combat is laughable and there are tons of new and old bugs.
    b3llist0r said:

    When? What is the expected ETA for this? At the moment the whole class system is f"§$%&/ed up. DPS calculated differently depending on the dev who reworked the class and then there is this unknwon/mysterious power/crit balance thing for healers... what is that? Did I missed some news?

    Critical chance ratio for healers in Mod 17 is

    Crit value / 2.5 / power value

    So at 100k power and 100k critical value your critical chance is 40%.
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