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[PvE] Paladin Guide by @greyjay1, @slappdaniel and @Its Viraaal

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    gaidin#2096 gaidin Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    I'm asking for my wife who plays OP: our group runs with a GF Conq(me) who tanks with 18% life steal and she has been running with a Dev burnadin spec, but I think she'd be more useful/better DPS going with Prot via your guide, except she won't need to tank. I admit that I don't have the ins and outs of OP down, so I was wondering are there any specific variations to what is in your guide that would be applicable to her build? I'm guessing not much since the HP->Power->Aura Gifts and AoC mechanics and powers will remain the same. Thanks for your input and the fantastic guide!
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    thrill#1417 thrill Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    Her powershare would definitely improve. If she were going to stay Protection she could probably start replacing recovery with Crit. My healadins needs a lot more recovery than my tank does.
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    greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    @gaidin#2096
    There are actually some Devo variations, but some depend on your gear / situation.

    I would distribute as many Ability points into Wis + Cha as possible to maximize crit, the Heroic Feats "Force of Will" and "Weapon Mastery" are a must have. I would not focus on Con as a Devo, since it doesn't translate into power for you ( 1 Con will only grant ~ 1k HP, it only adds BASE HP, really not worth it ). Your Primary goal should be 85% Resistance Ignored and a high crit chance ( again: crit should be np because of Cha + Wis ), combined with a high Base Power for Aura Gifts.
    Bane is such a powerful tool for Devotion paladins, I don't know why it's overlooked so much. It alone makes Devo an equal / better choice to Prot in several situations. You can use Bane as BUFF on a single ally. To utilize it easier you can bind it to an ally with a key bind (link at the end).
    If you have enough Recovery or use a method to keep Artificer's Persuation permanently up, then you can even use Bane as Buff AND Debuff.

    1. Bane + Bond + Vow
    Having Bond and Vow in your bar will keep your group at full HP and generate some BG / HW procs.

    2. Bane + Relentless Avenger + Vow / Smite
    This rotation is a bit more gear dependant than the first one, but it has a lot of potential.
    This is a Boss rotation where we don't multi proc BG / HW, we simply utilize the insane AP-Gain from Relentless Avenger in order to spam our Divine Judgement. The AP gained via RA is already pretty sick, but a perma Artificer's would definitely supplement this rotation very good since it will enable you to refill your ENTIRE AP bar with a single RA and so you can simply chain DJ's :) .
    As last Encounter you can then either pick Vow or Smite, the "pro" of Vow is the near instant cast animation, so I would pick that one, because the animation of Bane is just annoyingly long and RA / DJ aren't super fast either.

    Example for Bane:
    If your main DPS deals 5*10^6 dmg/sec pre Bane, then the Bane-buff alone would equal 1.5*10^6 dmg/sec.

    The deal with the Bane playstyle is, it's very efficient in groups / situations where you only have one main dps, hence it's less efficient with many dps-hybrids in your group ( not necessarily weaker than prot ).

    Links to key binds:
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231531/simple-keybinds-for-pve
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1232527/pc-reference-aliases-keybinds
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    gaidin#2096 gaidin Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    greyjay1 said:

    @gaidin#2096
    There are actually some Devo variations, but some depend on your gear / situation.

    I would distribute as many Ability points into Wis + Cha as possible to maximize crit, the Heroic Feats "Force of Will" and "Weapon Mastery" are a must have. I would not focus on Con as a Devo, since it doesn't translate into power for you ( 1 Con will only grant ~ 1k HP, it only adds BASE HP, really not worth it ). Your Primary goal should be 85% Resistance Ignored and a high crit chance ( again: crit should be np because of Cha + Wis ), combined with a high Base Power for Aura Gifts.
    Bane is such a powerful tool for Devotion paladins, I don't know why it's overlooked so much. It alone makes Devo an equal / better choice to Prot in several situations. You can use Bane as BUFF on a single ally. To utilize it easier you can bind it to an ally with a key bind (link at the end).
    If you have enough Recovery or use a method to keep Artificer's Persuation permanently up, then you can even use Bane as Buff AND Debuff.

    1. Bane + Bond + Vow
    Having Bond and Vow in your bar will keep your group at full HP and generate some BG / HW procs.

    2. Bane + Relentless Avenger + Vow / Smite
    This rotation is a bit more gear dependant than the first one, but it has a lot of potential.
    This is a Boss rotation where we don't multi proc BG / HW, we simply utilize the insane AP-Gain from Relentless Avenger in order to spam our Divine Judgement. The AP gained via RA is already pretty sick, but a perma Artificer's would definitely supplement this rotation very good since it will enable you to refill your ENTIRE AP bar with a single RA and so you can simply chain DJ's :) .
    As last Encounter you can then either pick Vow or Smite, the "pro" of Vow is the near instant cast animation, so I would pick that one, because the animation of Bane is just annoyingly long and RA / DJ aren't super fast either.

    Example for Bane:
    If your main DPS deals 5*10^6 dmg/sec pre Bane, then the Bane-buff alone would equal 1.5*10^6 dmg/sec.

    The deal with the Bane playstyle is, it's very efficient in groups / situations where you only have one main dps, hence it's less efficient with many dps-hybrids in your group ( not necessarily weaker than prot ).

    Links to key binds:
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231531/simple-keybinds-for-pve
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1232527/pc-reference-aliases-keybinds

    Thanks for the Dev input - I currently have her set up to do Bane + Vow + either CoP or Bond, depending on boss. The Bane+RA+Vow/Smite is really intriguing, but I'm not sure her current build has enough Recovery for this to work. This would be especially nice since she is still working on SKT to get Healing Warmth. As far as keeping Artificer's Persuasion up permanently, I'm not sure she'd like (enjoy) the turning away from the target every 15 seconds to be able to do it. She plays for fun and more roleplay focused than Min/Max.

    I don't think I was very clear on my original question's intent, let me try again: Do you think she'd be better off going Prot instead of Dev, even knowing that she won't need to tank?

    The reason I have had her Dev in the first place was so that we could queue together as tank/healer for PUGs when our guild can't play, but we never PUG anymore due to time constraints from having a toddler. :smile: Therefore, her build is now just for solo/duo/guild dungeon runs. Since I'm running a high LS Conq tank with decent crit and 80% DR, I don't generally even need heals anymore.

    Let me give you some of her current stats:
    IL=10,771
    HP = 139,202 (with Pilgrim Restoration Charayneh equipped, but she has Deepknight's Brigandine as an alternate)
    Power = 38,535
    Crit = 9,197
    Recovery = 8,596
    Action Point Gain = 767
    Defense = 11,740

    Crit Chance = 48%
    Crit Severity = 75%
    Damage Resistance = 50.4%
    Recharge Speed Increase = +71%
    Action Point Gain = 48.2%
    Resistance Ignored = 60.3% (yes, this is the old standard and now low, but we haven't been doing much in Chult yet and boosting it will be part of the repec I'm planning here.)

    She has a Con Artist with r12 Bondings and (2x) Ring of the Loyal Commander (625 {Power/Recovery) and (1x) Personalized Adamant Ring of Piercing (394 power/ArP). I have a couple r12 Savage enchants I can swap into there for the current offense of (2x) r12 Azure and (1x) r12 Radiant.

    I'd love to get her Rings of the Loyal Avenger, but they are insanely priced and not in the realm of possibility. We can run IG to try for some decent +4 rings, but that's always a HAMSTER shoot and, as I mentioned, time is limited for us to actually play. I was considering some epic Rings of DoD as well, which she can get.

    She currently has a Trans Holy Avenger (I know, not optimal, but again the roleplay aspect she likes). I have a trans Vorpal I can give her, or trade to get a trans Fey, which would probably be the best option given her crit chance, I believe (correct me if I am interpreting your comparison chart incorrectly). She's got the Titansteel Weapon/Shield set and the Demon Lord's set.

    She has the Burning Guidance boon, but not yet healing Warmth (she is working on this currently).

    Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it!
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    rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User

    <

    I don't think I was very clear on my original question's intent, let me try again: Do you think she'd be better off going Prot instead of Dev, even knowing that she won't need to tank?

    The reason I have had her Dev in the first place was so that we could queue together as tank/healer for PUGs when our guild can't play, but we never PUG anymore due to time constraints from having a toddler. :smile: Therefore, her build is now just for solo/duo/guild dungeon runs. Since I'm running a high LS Conq tank with decent crit and 80% DR, I don't generally even need heals anymore.

    Keep a loadout for both, but which one is best depends on the situation, which is what Grace was saying.

    In all of FBI, you are likely better off with Tankadin 24/7. The dungeon is very oneshot happy and you can't heal through a oneshot. As a Tankadin, it's very easy to get the Protection Power buff, unlike other places. Additionally, boss HP counts are low enough that adding chip damage with butter knife and Sacred Weapon will probably be a faster run than going for a full heals build.

    If you run with a DPS DO, actual DPSer, and you as DPS GF, your OP is probably better off with Tankadin. Placing Bane on everyone is going to be a pain and you'd likely contribute more to a group with passive Powershare + better DPS.

    In a place like Tomb, you're probably better off running Tankadin for everything but boss 2. Boss 2 is mostly a joke that doesn't need a tank. Healadin counters every mechanic but lulpartialparalysis, and placing Bane on main DPS/the DPS GF will speed up the fight better.

    In SP, you are likely better off running Healadin in everything but boss 2. SP is, oddly enough, a heals heavy dungeon, and there are various points in the dungeon where you can't lifesteal your way through things (Nostura's Planar Prominence and the parts where Kabal is invincible). You would run Tankadin on boss 2 since you want to kill boss 2 as quick as you can and Tankadin has the better burst DPS.

    (By the way, if you don't feel like tanking pugs, there is a way to queue pugs with OP+GF, but that's a secret to everyone.)

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    veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    In general I agree with rjc9000's assessment. Not that my opinion counts for anything per se. Tankadins hold a core role later on in the game especially, as they do much better with more base power. I would say between 10k-12k IL you might end up even steven in most cases depending on the group comp (I PUG a lot). After that Tankadin will generally outperform thanks to power sharing / bonding etc... This is from my experience. Heals as pointed out above do matter in certain cases. If you are ignoring the straight up tanky part of the tankadin and only care about raw DPS / Utility, at 10.7k IL, I would say its a toss up. Run both loadouts, see what fits the playstyle better and provides more group comfort / dps, and go with that. You can always reevaluate as the group changes, or as more stats are acquired.

    Edit: I also wanted to take the time to apologize to greyjay and slappdaniel publicly for my previous comments in the thread. As I was reading them it was quite embarrassing and shameful.
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
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    greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    I agree with everything @rjc9000 said.
    Placing Bane is painful.
    @gaidin#2096
    The stats are not perfect, but solid, you should be able to get good reslults with it, as rjc said, get her a second loadout and do some runs ;) .

    To your progression-plans:
    - Yes t.Fey would be the best wpn enhancement for your wife.
    - Reaching a higher crit chance is important as well.
    - Upgrading your Resistance Ignored can wait until you plan to run Tomb of the Nine Gods, if you duo the Chult campaign, then it should be super easy, even without the perfect Resistance Ignored value.

    @veywiil#8685
    Thanks for the public apology, it's all good.
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    viraaalviraaal Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    I guess I finally decided to recover my account, and thought I should come and say hi. If you have any questions for me you can now ask.
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    rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User
    viraaal said:

    I guess I finally decided to recover my account, and thought I should come and say hi. If you have any questions for me you can now ask.

    When are you never :thinking:?

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    viraaalviraaal Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    viraaal said:

    I guess I finally decided to recover my account, and thought I should come and say hi. If you have any questions for me you can now ask.

    When are you never :thinking:?
    Shouldn't it be, When are you not :thinking:?

    Anyway, that is a good question. I would say when I am :thonking:
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    schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    Is an augment worth to think about at all except for a better personal benefit from AUC and a solid HP? Saw someone running 400k HP.
    Even spending huge ammounts of AD, that augment may be worth a bit more than 70k HP with optimal stats, ending in 7k more powershare?
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    greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
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    artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    Hi, thanks for the guide.

    It proved very useful for bringing my old OP back from the dead.

    I do have a question regarding Mainhand Weapon Artifact Power:

    You tell us to take the one for Shielding Strike because you always use it but this power doesn't increase the damage done by shielding strike. In fact, if you only Shielding Strike, it doesn't do anything at all.

    On the other hand, the Artifact Power for Radiant Strike gives it a nice damage boost (which also works for the stuff proced by it) which may to be very useful but better than nothing.

    Am I missing something?
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    rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User
    artifleur said:

    Hi, thanks for the guide.

    It proved very useful for bringing my old OP back from the dead.

    I do have a question regarding Mainhand Weapon Artifact Power:

    You tell us to take the one for Shielding Strike because you always use it but this power doesn't increase the damage done by shielding strike. In fact, if you only Shielding Strike, it doesn't do anything at all.

    On the other hand, the Artifact Power for Radiant Strike gives it a nice damage boost (which also works for the stuff proced by it) which may to be very useful but better than nothing.

    Am I missing something?

    Radiant Strike's artifact power only increases the DPS done by Radiant Strike.

    It is mostly irrelevant on an ability whose only practical uses are to close gaps and give a 5% damage buff.

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    artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    Radiant Strike's artifact power only increases the DPS done by Radiant Strike

    I tested it a little and it also increases the damage done by the Aura of Courage triggered by Radiant Strike. It's hard to test everything else since you can get the artifact power on the fixed damage mace but I assume it works with other stuff like Purifying Fire.
    rjc9000 said:

    It is mostly irrelevant on an ability whose only practical uses are to close gaps and give a 5% damage buff.

    Mostly irrelevant yes, but much better than an artifact power that doesn't do anything.
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    greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    What @rjc9000 said.
    I usually only use Radiant Strike when almost no buffs are up, using it while buffs are up can even cost you dps (taking away time from the buff-window).
    However "almost no dmg > no dmg", use it if you feel like it, won't make a big difference.
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    artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    greyjay1 said:

    What @rjc9000 said.
    I usually only use Radiant Strike when almost no buffs are up, using it while buffs are up can even cost you dps (taking away time from the buff-window).
    However "almost no dmg > no dmg", use it if you feel like it, won't make a big difference.

    OK thanks!
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    rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 582 Arc User
    Much like Veywiil, I've come around. Really nice guide......
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    sundance777sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    Nice guide, I was starting to look for some tweaks to my build and started by reading your guide. I was a little confused at first by the video linked in the guild as that is an xbox player and your screen shots are PC, are you on both platforms? I think I have tanked MSVA next to IM OP, and he puts out lots more damage than mine at the moment, although I think I out heal him ;) I am not usually overly concerned about DPS, but I like to help kill some stuff when I can.

    It's probably time to deal with my weapon enchant, I have been rocking the Dread forever now because it served me well at lower levels but now it seems to be lagging behind a bit. I tried Lightning for a bit too, that was cool for keeping the mobs attention but that didn't feel right either.

    My question is, do any Pallies out there still try to keep their party alive, or do you just run with people that are well geared enough that this is not really a concern in your groups? I am always spamming Shield of Faith and trying to lay down CoP and Sanctuary to lessen the blows for others standing in the pile with me, although they probably should not be standing that close to me lol...
    TR - Sun: 16000 IL
    OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL

    Casual Dailies
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    rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User


    My question is, do any Pallies out there still try to keep their party alive, or do you just run with people that are well geared enough that this is not really a concern in your groups?

    The best defense in NW is to kill everything in sight.
    If you nuke enemies with multi-million butter knives/GWF like Sacred Weapon combos, there is nothing left to kill your teammates.

    I am always spamming Shield of Faith and trying to lay down CoP and Sanctuary to lessen the blows for others standing in the pile with me, although they probably should not be standing that close to me lol...

    Redirect enemy attacks away from your teammates, then proceed to nuke enemies.

    If any non tank/non DPS GF wants to stand shoulder to shoulder with you while you are taking most of the hits, they are too dumb to live.

    Let the lemmings quickly learn why it is a Bad Thing™ to stand next to the tank.

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    trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Member Posts: 372 Arc User
    edited December 2017

    My question is, do any Pallies out there still try to keep their party alive, or do you just run with people that are well geared enough that this is not really a concern in your groups? I am always spamming Shield of Faith and trying to lay down CoP and Sanctuary to lessen the blows for others standing in the pile with me, although they probably should not be standing that close to me lol...

    You should always spam Divine Judgement unless situation forces you to use more defensive tools like Shield of Faith. If no one needed SoF to survive because you had good support of other classes and people who are not stupid to stand in red unless they're sure it won't kill them - you just wasted your daily. Personally I'm spamming Shield of Faith only when running harder content like FBI hill climb with 4 DPS. Damage mitigation, extra incoming healing and heal from Beacon of Hope and Prism work great for these kind of situations.
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    majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    ^ What he said.
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
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    rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User
    If I have to make a single choice between the Swift Golden Lion and the Black Ice Warhorse, which one would you guys reccomend over the other any why?

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    greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    You basically have to choose between 2 totally different things: 2k more base Power VS mount power.
    The decision between Lion and Warhorse is tough, I'd personally pick the Warhorse (Power try-hard) because the Lion would only help in a few circumstances and the 2K more Power would always be good.
    On the other hand, maybe you just want a mount power, pick the Lion in that case.

    PS: Trex has a decent bonus (2k arp + 2k Power) AND a decent mount Power, if you'd go for "only" one legendary mount, this would give you the best bang for your buck.
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    mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 937 Arc User
    Firstly let me thnak you for an amazing guide.

    Secondly i recently had a Harper Bard drop for me. Would that be a good active/summoned companion or should i no use it on my op. the spells on it looks very interesting
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



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    viraaalviraaal Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    I see why everyone loves using the Harper Bard, especially for the paladin, as the increase in HP, along with an increase to power and crit to allies, and then the debuff. However I dont like it as every character building for dps should be building for 100% Crit, so the crit becomes useless. The power is nice, however its not going to really matter in a group with a paladin and a cleric. The debuff is only applied when the target is under 50% health so its, a relative 4% debuff, so not that great.
    So your comparing 4% debuff + 2k power + hp vs 10% debuff. However I personally prefer the Sellsword / Con Artist.
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    sundance777sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    I need the Harper Bard for mine, please RNGesus, drop one for me too!

    As far as mounts, I have been really happy with the legacy snail, this allows me to have dailies for days without stacking too much recovery and the price was right, I landed it years ago from the Crushing Wave(?) lockbox. I am contemplating a legendary mount now, I was considering the disc for the attack power. If I was not using the AP gain from the snail I would go for the 4K power from the warhorse most likely. I will need to look at the lion again, that might be on my short (wish) list as well.
    TR - Sun: 16000 IL
    OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL

    Casual Dailies
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    trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Member Posts: 372 Arc User
    viraaal said:

    I see why everyone loves using the Harper Bard, especially for the paladin, as the increase in HP, along with an increase to power and crit to allies, and then the debuff. However I dont like it as every character building for dps should be building for 100% Crit, so the crit becomes useless. The power is nice, however its not going to really matter in a group with a paladin and a cleric. The debuff is only applied when the target is under 50% health so its, a relative 4% debuff, so not that great.
    So your comparing 4% debuff + 2k power + hp vs 10% debuff. However I personally prefer the Sellsword / Con Artist.

    It gets even worse - Bard is Leader type so gives power/recovery base and 20% increased stats from it vs power/crit/arpen from Striker like Con/Sellsword, and we know that recovery is wasted stat with AoW and Justice path. And the debuff is not even close to average 4% because most classes have and/or uses powers/feats/gear that makes them deal increased damage when enemy's health diminishes (e.g. Orcus set, Tiefling, GWF and CW feats) so debuff up time is really poor even on bosses, while on trash where mobs can often be killed from above 50% HP it doesn't even have a chance to proc. And on top of that Bard doesn't attack so doesn't proc Protector's Camaraderie/Friendship.
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