@kotoamatzukami ...and again nothing but meh.......first pls learn how to post even in ur own thread: u shouldt quote someone above his orginal post... How often u got kicked or me has nothing to do with the thread as well what u guess about my playstyle....seems to me u never had the chance to run old CN otherwise u wouldnt say something like that...its seems also u be a I run all stuff with my friends only type so thats maybe new to u
First of all, this is not my own thread. "you shouldnt quote someone above his original post" -> pls explain, I actually dont understand what you wanna tell me with that statement.
How often I got kicked has very well do to with what you wrote about all the unjustified reasons people could get kicked from runs. Simple comparison of how much I would benefit from the kicker-penalty if it would be introduced.
And I barely do any dungeons with guildies/alliance members, its way quicker for me to just solo queue. Edit: I do my RAQs as DC, which is why its much quicker for me to solo queue than to gather a party, just as explanation.
Easiest fix: anyone leaves, for any reason, they get the leaver penalty.
As I said, all this will do is make people sit in the dungeon doing nothing instead of leaving so it wont fix anything. You will still need to wait to kick them.
It will also prevent other people who do want to do the content from leaving to do something else when they are waiting five to fifteen minutes for the game to kick the disconnect or a bot to start moving or whatever else is messing up the run.
Already happening, some players just stand by the assembly point and do nothing until the final boss is defeated then they swoop in to collect their reward.
With that you have players who although they tag along with the party, they do everything they can to avoid mobs. Hide in corners, ride their mound around in circles or just run the other way until the fighting is done.
Changing leaver penalties probably is not going to do a great deal to change player behavior and what it seems we are discussing is player behavior.... cheaters gonna' cheat and slackers gonna' slack off.
There's a difference between players just standing on the sidelines or not participating and players who are trying to participate, but don't yet have the experience, or gear to allow them to do so more effectively.
When the kick timer was instituted some players complained because they weren't able to kick people they thought weren't moving fast enough, or players they thought were inadequately geared. I guess they forgot that doing those dungeons and skirmishes is one of the best ways for players to obtain the means to allow them to get better gear and items to help them move faster.
I'm of the opinion that that the "kick timer" is adequate as it is... the disconnect timer (the time before a disconnected player is dropped) may need to be a little shorter but for the most part I haven't found the disconnect timer to be that great of a problem either.
Just my 2¢
DD~
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,095Arc User
The fastest way to empty queues, that nobody wants to be in. Try this and see how you'll have to wait an hour or two for one Raq attempt. Then come here again and cry about why no one is queueing.
Non-issue. I only run RAQ with allies.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
@kotoamatzukami ...u started the thread so u be the owner...but u also sound not very resonable so I will stop to reply to u
What the hell?! I did NOT start this thread. Before you comment on other's reading abilities i suggest you start with your own.
Furthermore, I always just responded to previous comments, mostly yours, with personal experience. Other than I could have written "So if ONE gets kicked on a regular basis ..." instead of "So if YOU get kicked on a regular basis ..." so you dont feel personally spoken to, I dont see where I am being unreasonable (in my understanding, "you" is a pronoun used to adress the reader in general, not just a specific person -> if it doesnt apply to you, then you dont have to wory about it).
@kotoamatzukami ...right sry ur not the OP but u and the OP both quoted the same post of mine so that went wrong and I mixed things up...sry again about that
Or it is actually yourself that is the problem in your runs ... just a thought. that came from u so I responded to that.
Nevertheless the thread shows pretty well how many lttle dictators running around and want to punish everyone and his mother´s if they dont do what the want
Post edited by aixis2000 on
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,095Arc User
Really? Dictators tend to be those that walk back out, stand around and do nothing, or have temper tantrums because the random queue tossed them into something they weren't willing to do.
Reality check: don't queue unless you're willing to run whatever happens to come up.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
So if you get kicked on a regular basis, you either have bad luck beyond imagination for constantly being paired with like 4 idiots of one guild that get rid of you wrongfully. Or it is actually yourself that is the problem in your runs ... just a thought.
Or it is actually yourself that is the problem in your runs ... just a thought. that came from u so I responded to that.
Yes, I realise the way I phrased that, it could be misunderstood. It was not targeted to you personally, more like "to whoever it may apply". Thats what I was trying to clarify with my last comment.
I see this abuse so often now that something should probably be done. It is a completely selfish and HAMSTER move. Giving penalty to people leaving for any reason is the easiest thing to do. The original intention of not giving a penalty after someone leaves may have been because it may take some time for another tank/heal to show up. But this exacerbates the problem because once one person leaves, another is likely to follow, making it harder to bring the party back up to a viable level.
If someone goes into RQ, they should be ready to do any of the content, or take the penalty.
As for kicking, I rarely see players successfully kicked unless they asked to be kicked. Overall the player population is pretty civil and there is usually enough people to vote kicks down, even on carried players. Giving penalty to all leaves would remove the incentive for players to try to get themselves kicked.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,095Arc User
@greywynd ...I have nothing to say to u and ur logic...so whatever
Because being a mature human being isn't logical to you?
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
If I get first-time experience people, I try anyway - even in CR -, I even explain the ropes, because, come on, we're all been there. If there is no chance to go forward I start abandonment instance to close it or I leave myself.
I NEVER exit the dungeon from the door/cartel. THIS is selfish, because you penalize also the other 4-ppl. Waiting 15mins, doing something else, like sorting inventary/watching a video/doing a coffee it's not preposterous to ask. We all can do that without wasting too much time.
If you have tried and you realise there is no way you will end up finishing the dungeon, you would probably have spent over 15 minutes already, so your team wouldn't need to wait that amount of time to let them kick you. In that case, I see no harm in exiting the dungeon from the door/signpost.
Actually, it is very common to see people asking their teammates to get kicked during a dungeon, as they believe there is no way through it. Next step, if they don't get kicked, I believe is using the exit door!
EDIT: What I do find excessive is having to wait that long time to kick someone. It is a pain! Say you come into a dungeon and someone is idling, and you need to wait those 15 minutes before you can kick them. Not to mention the fact you can only kick vote once every 4 hours...
As for kicking, I rarely see players successfully kicked unless they asked to be kicked. Overall the player population is pretty civil and there is usually enough people to vote kicks down, even on carried players. Giving penalty to all leaves would remove the incentive for players to try to get themselves kicked.
Yes, that is true... now. Because of the kick timer. But there was a time when it would be nearly impossible to que for, as an example, ETOS because the group would kick anyone they thought might slow them down.
As for kicking, I rarely see players successfully kicked unless they asked to be kicked. Overall the player population is pretty civil and there is usually enough people to vote kicks down, even on carried players. Giving penalty to all leaves would remove the incentive for players to try to get themselves kicked.
For the first part, true enough in my opinion, but count the number of people in this thread who state they wish they could kick someone out of a random queue or wish the could kick someone out more quickly... as a matter of fact that seems to be a reoccurring theme in a lot of threads.
As for the latter part if there is no leaver penalty anyone can decide to leave a party at any time, for any reason and just queue up for another run. It might remove the incentive for players asking to get kicked out, but by way of thinking it would tremendously exacerbate the problem of people just dropping out of a queue if it is a run they don't want to do (used to happen a lot), dropping out if they don't like the way another player, or players are running the content (going too fast, going too slow, aren't killing enough, killing too many, etc.), dropping out in the hopes they can requeue with better players to make their run easier, or for any reason whatsoever, leaving everyone else in the party one person short until a replacement can be brought in.
My personal opinion, I think the leaver penalty is absolutely proper and a welcome change from the way it used to be before the leaver penalty was instituted... but that's just my opinion.
Not sure it's the perfect section to raise the issue, but here I am. I do Random Queues for Intermediate and Advanced daily and I need to raise this point: please find a way to fix the abandonment of the queues.
I explain: I queue up, I get into Master Spellplaugue/FBI, then one nice player leave the instance by exiting from the dungeon door or by travel cartel at the beginning of the dungeon to do something else while not taking the penalty. This is really troublesome, beceuse the player cannot be kicked out as he/she left as soon as they arrive in the instance and the 4 players who are still inside cannot do anything else than expecting 15mins to close the instance.
Can it be implemented, I don't know, some kind of penalty for the person who leave the instcance by the door or cartel?
To be honest, if I don't want to stay in a dungeon because I don't like it or whatever, I just abandon it, taking the penalty, so the rest of the team can ask for reinforcements, I don't see the problem with that, since it's MY problem and I don't see why other must 'pay' (in time) in my place.
This isn't the way to fix the issue. The issue will be fixed (or at least will make things better) when they raise the minimum item level to do RAQs.
This isn't the way to fix the issue. The issue will be fixed (or at least will make things better) when they raise the minimum item level to do RAQs.
I didn't have much trouble finishing FBI and mSP in RAQ in the early days of mod 14. Then the success rate started plummeting because the new players were hitting 11K. At that time, I said iLvl should be increased. But after seeing 15Ks getting carried in REQ ToNG, I don't believe iLvl is the problem. It is the new players. They have to improve their game.
Increasing the gear Item level for some random content would probably address some of the issues with some random content taking a little more effort than some people seem to want to devote - but as an alternative the issue may also be resolved by increasing the number of people allowed to participate in said content and it wouldn't have so many variables... such as are we talking about player item level with buffs or without, with companion or without, etc.
In my opinion all items levels for content access should be assessed based just on the gear and enchantments a player has No consideration for companions, boons, mounts or any other kind of buffs. If a character's 'bare-bones', without additional factors, item level reaches the minimum level for participation, there should be no problem...
Now as to whether or not a player actually knows what their doing, despite item level, or even with their allowable item level plays cooperatively thus making the party stronger - or tries to play the run as a solo event thus making the party less effective, that that's a whole different discussion.
I can push my praying alts to an IL of 11k with trash gear, account wide mounts, no boons at all and some cheap epic companions from the winter festival. Would I enter TONG with this gear? No. Would I waste my time carrying similar geared players, no. Do I leave such groups, yes. Is it my failure, that they are undergeared? No. Do I take the penalty? Yes. Do I understand ppl, who dont want to take the penalty for other party members inadequate gear? Yes. For arguments sake. Ppl with no chance in hell, to finish a dungeon without a group carrying them que up, hoping for other players, to carry them. They are allowed, to do it, so no one can complain about it. The same argument is valid for ppl leaving via the gate. They are allowed to do it, so quit complaining. IMO, it is an egoistical move on both sides. Until they fix the problem, dont argue like '11k is stupid but legit, so deal with it and leaving via a portal is stupid, but legit, you suck'.
Not sure it's the perfect section to raise the issue, but here I am. I do Random Queues for Intermediate and Advanced daily and I need to raise this point: please find a way to fix the abandonment of the queues.
I explain: I queue up, I get into Master Spellplaugue/FBI, then one nice player leave the instance by exiting from the dungeon door or by travel cartel at the beginning of the dungeon to do something else while not taking the penalty. This is really troublesome, beceuse the player cannot be kicked out as he/she left as soon as they arrive in the instance and the 4 players who are still inside cannot do anything else than expecting 15mins to close the instance.
Can it be implemented, I don't know, some kind of penalty for the person who leave the instcance by the door or cartel?
To be honest, if I don't want to stay in a dungeon because I don't like it or whatever, I just abandon it, taking the penalty, so the rest of the team can ask for reinforcements, I don't see the problem with that, since it's MY problem and I don't see why other must 'pay' (in time) in my place.
This isn't the way to fix the issue. The issue will be fixed (or at least will make things better) when they raise the minimum item level to do RAQs.
This. Again and again. Please raise min iL - at least it gives players a chance to finish FBI
@johonxgalt --ur punisihing streategies can be pretty easy avoided - if Im in a 11k group... for example like today I was in MSP with an 14k+ alt of mine - lowest was an SW 11087 IL no weapon and no armor enchant...first timer so he had no clue about the mechanics...he died his way trough the second boss and was absolutly no help...eventually we voted to abandon aftrer 1h and 12 mins...after that run I joined another RAQ only 1 guy to carry in there all went smoother and we were done after 45 min...only complains about loot...
If I que with my main and see there is no hope to get the dungeon finished and know I get punished if I leave instance and get punished if I dont do dmg every 5 mins...I could do dmg every 4.30 mins for example or I could remove weapons + companions + gear till I have also only 11k IL so I hit like a wet noodle and die as the rest of the team...maybe someone other leave even before we can vote to abandon...u could say then I punish u for removing gear or doing low dmg intentionaly...endless story again...
RIQ has nothing to do with this discussion cause it hasnt that huge IL gap and 1 good geared player can carry the rest...those 2 u mentioned - Tia and Throne are even less problematic cause they have their own timer....Throne...yes alot of ppl in there with no clue what to do killing hulks and aiming all but not the gates or the dome...its really hard not to loose patience after 500 Thrones and there is always someone with no clue and worse not listening / reading chat...
REQ/RAQ raise min IL is the only option - all those punishment proposals are shortsighted and will lead to a never ending spiral if u let ppl do what they think they have the right to do so
i think the system is good now, except for disconnected players. I feel the game should automatically kick players that load up disconnected after 30 seconds.. and no penalty for them. This way the team does not have to wait several minutes to kick them.
i think the system is good now, except for disconnected players. I feel the game should automatically kick players that load up disconnected after 30 seconds.. and no penalty for them. This way the team does not have to wait several minutes to kick them.
Think of how this can be abused the next time you are waiting for your map to load up...
i think the system is good now, except for disconnected players. I feel the game should automatically kick players that load up disconnected after 30 seconds.. and no penalty for them. This way the team does not have to wait several minutes to kick them.
Think of how this can be abused the next time you are waiting for your map to load up...
Are players marked as "disconnected" even if it takes longer for the instance to load for them?
I don't believe so. In my experience at least, players who load more slowly are shown as being present in the instance even though they haven't yet arrived. Someone having their instance load more slowly and a player being disconnected appear to be two different sets of circumstances, again at least in my experiences.
If a player leaves dungeon kick timer sets to zero, kick reason "left instance" is available and gives leaver penalty.
If a player has not done any damage in last 5 minutes kick timer becomes active, kick reason "AFK" gives leaver penalty.
I see more issues with people playing games in the RIQ getting runs they just dont want and leave or just stand at entrance. (Tia, Throne, etc).
Some players become disconnected due to no fault of their own then reconnect within a few seconds, having the "kick timer set to zero" in instances like that seems a bit excessive in my opinion.
As to a player "not doing any damage" regardless of the time frame; have you ever been in random content with players who are much faster than you are?
It doesn't happen often, but I've been in some instances where speed runners take of and leave me in their dungeon dust, they kill everything in sight and I arrive at the last boss's gate with "zero kills - zero damage dealt". Just because a player hasn't registered any kills or damage dealt doesn't mean a player has been AFK or not attempting to participate.
Maybe something to think about?
As for players just standing at the entrance or going AFK at the beginning of a random run, I've suggested a door or portal (a couple actually) somewhere between the point of origin and the end boss gate. If a player hasn't made it through all portals within 1 minute of everyone else arriving at the final boss gate the portal is locked and AFK or slacker players cannot progress beyond it... Even players outpaced by dungeon speed runners should be able to make it through those gates prior to them being locked out in every instance I can think of.
But still with the way things presently are, players leaving or intentionally disconnecting after they've arrived in an instance do get a leaver penalty - or should, for any and every manner by which they leave, as I believe someone mentioned in another thread... something along the lines of: 'simple answer, any player who leaves a queue (by any method) should get the leaver penalty'.
i think the system is good now, except for disconnected players. I feel the game should automatically kick players that load up disconnected after 30 seconds.. and no penalty for them. This way the team does not have to wait several minutes to kick them.
Think of how this can be abused the next time you are waiting for your map to load up...
Are players marked as "disconnected" even if it takes longer for the instance to load for them?
I don't believe so. In my experience at least, players who load more slowly are shown as being present in the instance even though they haven't yet arrived. Someone having their instance load more slowly and a player being disconnected appear to be two different sets of circumstances, again at least in my experiences.
If a player leaves dungeon kick timer sets to zero, kick reason "left instance" is available and gives leaver penalty.
If a player has not done any damage in last 5 minutes kick timer becomes active, kick reason "AFK" gives leaver penalty.
I see more issues with people playing games in the RIQ getting runs they just dont want and leave or just stand at entrance. (Tia, Throne, etc).
Some players become disconnected due to no fault of their own then reconnect within a few seconds, having the "kick timer set to zero" in instances like that seems a bit excessive in my opinion.
As to a player "not doing any damage" regardless of the time frame; have you ever been in random content with players who are much faster than you are?
It doesn't happen often, but I've been in some instances where speed runners take of and leave me in their dungeon dust, they kill everything in sight and I arrive at the last boss's gate with "zero kills - zero damage dealt". Just because a player hasn't registered any kills or damage dealt doesn't mean a player has been AFK or not attempting to participate.
Maybe something to think about?
As for players just standing at the entrance or going AFK at the beginning of a random run, I've suggested a door or portal (a couple actually) somewhere between the point of origin and the end boss gate. If a player hasn't made it through all portals within 1 minute of everyone else arriving at the final boss gate the portal is locked and AFK or slacker players cannot progress beyond it... Even players outpaced by dungeon speed runners should be able to make it through those gates prior to them being locked out in every instance I can think of.
But still with the way things presently are, players leaving or intentionally disconnecting after they've arrived in an instance do get a leaver penalty - or should, for any and every manner by which they leave, as I believe someone mentioned in another thread... something along the lines of: 'simple answer, any player who leaves a queue (by any method) should get the leaver penalty'.
Simpler solution, abandon RQ and let us form our own groups for RAD runs. Wait, who will carry my HAMSTER, if this 'elitist smucks', who gear and play for results, not for looks, stick together?
Comments
"you shouldnt quote someone above his original post" -> pls explain, I actually dont understand what you wanna tell me with that statement.
How often I got kicked has very well do to with what you wrote about all the unjustified reasons people could get kicked from runs. Simple comparison of how much I would benefit from the kicker-penalty if it would be introduced.
And I barely do any dungeons with guildies/alliance members, its way quicker for me to just solo queue.
Edit: I do my RAQs as DC, which is why its much quicker for me to solo queue than to gather a party, just as explanation.
With that you have players who although they tag along with the party, they do everything they can to avoid mobs. Hide in corners, ride their mound around in circles or just run the other way until the fighting is done.
Changing leaver penalties probably is not going to do a great deal to change player behavior and what it seems we are discussing is player behavior.... cheaters gonna' cheat and slackers gonna' slack off.
There's a difference between players just standing on the sidelines or not participating and players who are trying to participate, but don't yet have the experience, or gear to allow them to do so more effectively.
When the kick timer was instituted some players complained because they weren't able to kick people they thought weren't moving fast enough, or players they thought were inadequately geared. I guess they forgot that doing those dungeons and skirmishes is one of the best ways for players to obtain the means to allow them to get better gear and items to help them move faster.
I'm of the opinion that that the "kick timer" is adequate as it is... the disconnect timer (the time before a disconnected player is dropped) may need to be a little shorter but for the most part I haven't found the disconnect timer to be that great of a problem either.
Just my 2¢
Furthermore, I always just responded to previous comments, mostly yours, with personal experience. Other than I could have written "So if ONE gets kicked on a regular basis ..." instead of "So if YOU get kicked on a regular basis ..." so you dont feel personally spoken to, I dont see where I am being unreasonable (in my understanding, "you" is a pronoun used to adress the reader in general, not just a specific person -> if it doesnt apply to you, then you dont have to wory about it).
Or it is actually yourself that is the problem in your runs ... just a thought. that came from u so I responded to that.
Nevertheless the thread shows pretty well how many lttle dictators running around and want to punish everyone and his mother´s if they dont do what the want
Reality check: don't queue unless you're willing to run whatever happens to come up.
If someone goes into RQ, they should be ready to do any of the content, or take the penalty.
Actually, it is very common to see people asking their teammates to get kicked during a dungeon, as they believe there is no way through it. Next step, if they don't get kicked, I believe is using the exit door!
EDIT: What I do find excessive is having to wait that long time to kick someone. It is a pain! Say you come into a dungeon and someone is idling, and you need to wait those 15 minutes before you can kick them. Not to mention the fact you can only kick vote once every 4 hours...
(Mod manually inserted lost quote)
As for the latter part if there is no leaver penalty anyone can decide to leave a party at any time, for any reason and just queue up for another run. It might remove the incentive for players asking to get kicked out, but by way of thinking it would tremendously exacerbate the problem of people just dropping out of a queue if it is a run they don't want to do (used to happen a lot), dropping out if they don't like the way another player, or players are running the content (going too fast, going too slow, aren't killing enough, killing too many, etc.), dropping out in the hopes they can requeue with better players to make their run easier, or for any reason whatsoever, leaving everyone else in the party one person short until a replacement can be brought in.
My personal opinion, I think the leaver penalty is absolutely proper and a welcome change from the way it used to be before the leaver penalty was instituted... but that's just my opinion.
In my opinion all items levels for content access should be assessed based just on the gear and enchantments a player has No consideration for companions, boons, mounts or any other kind of buffs. If a character's 'bare-bones', without additional factors, item level reaches the minimum level for participation, there should be no problem...
Now as to whether or not a player actually knows what their doing, despite item level, or even with their allowable item level plays cooperatively thus making the party stronger - or tries to play the run as a solo event thus making the party less effective, that that's a whole different discussion.
My 2¢
If a player leaves dungeon kick timer sets to zero, kick reason "left instance" is available and gives leaver penalty.
If a player has not done any damage in last 5 minutes kick timer becomes active, kick reason "AFK" gives leaver penalty.
I see more issues with people playing games in the RIQ getting runs they just dont want and leave or just stand at entrance. (Tia, Throne, etc).
If I que with my main and see there is no hope to get the dungeon finished and know I get punished if I leave instance and get punished if I dont do dmg every 5 mins...I could do dmg every 4.30 mins for example or I could remove weapons + companions + gear till I have also only 11k IL so I hit like a wet noodle and die as the rest of the team...maybe someone other leave even before we can vote to abandon...u could say then I punish u for removing gear or doing low dmg intentionaly...endless story again...
RIQ has nothing to do with this discussion cause it hasnt that huge IL gap and 1 good geared player can carry the rest...those 2 u mentioned - Tia and Throne are even less problematic cause they have their own timer....Throne...yes alot of ppl in there with no clue what to do killing hulks and aiming all but not the gates or the dome...its really hard not to loose patience after 500 Thrones and there is always someone with no clue and worse not listening / reading chat...
REQ/RAQ raise min IL is the only option - all those punishment proposals are shortsighted and will lead to a never ending spiral if u let ppl do what they think they have the right to do so
I don't believe so. In my experience at least, players who load more slowly are shown as being present in the instance even though they haven't yet arrived. Someone having their instance load more slowly and a player being disconnected appear to be two different sets of circumstances, again at least in my experiences. Some players become disconnected due to no fault of their own then reconnect within a few seconds, having the "kick timer set to zero" in instances like that seems a bit excessive in my opinion.
As to a player "not doing any damage" regardless of the time frame; have you ever been in random content with players who are much faster than you are?
It doesn't happen often, but I've been in some instances where speed runners take of and leave me in their dungeon dust, they kill everything in sight and I arrive at the last boss's gate with "zero kills - zero damage dealt". Just because a player hasn't registered any kills or damage dealt doesn't mean a player has been AFK or not attempting to participate.
Maybe something to think about?
As for players just standing at the entrance or going AFK at the beginning of a random run, I've suggested a door or portal (a couple actually) somewhere between the point of origin and the end boss gate. If a player hasn't made it through all portals within 1 minute of everyone else arriving at the final boss gate the portal is locked and AFK or slacker players cannot progress beyond it... Even players outpaced by dungeon speed runners should be able to make it through those gates prior to them being locked out in every instance I can think of.
But still with the way things presently are, players leaving or intentionally disconnecting after they've arrived in an instance do get a leaver penalty - or should, for any and every manner by which they leave, as I believe someone mentioned in another thread... something along the lines of: 'simple answer, any player who leaves a queue (by any method) should get the leaver penalty'.