[Mod 8] Iron Vanguard Instigator PVE Build (DPS + CC + Buff)

arcofortep12

The Fencing Master

Style of Play:
In PVE you are a solid striker, a somewhat solid (marginal?) buffer, and a very competent controller. You will deal generally High damage (you will be in the HR's range) but it will depends also on your party composition. For example you will be restrained if the mobs will be highly controlled because without suffering at least some damage you will not be able to benefit from the Instigator's Vengeance buff (up to 50% more damage), though in some situations you can mantain the Capstone always active because it expires only if not get struck for 6 seconds. Also you actually get buffed (20% flat DPS buff) by hitting controlled targets, thanks to Tremple the Fallen, a win-win situation.
But Instigator isn't all about personal damage, unlike Destroyer, other than solid damage you will bring to the party Combat Advantage (let's not take CA for granted; playing with my other toons, my CA mileage vary from 65 to 85%. Last Valindra's run with my Instigator we had 74% CA as average) against foes you hit with the 'feated' (Allied Opportunity) Power Mighty Leap. Your control abilities shine thanks to the combination of the following factors:
1. You can silence foes for 1 second when you cast Mighty Leap, this will prevent affected foes to cast their AoE
2. You can benefit from the Prone effect of Frontline Surge
3. You can benefit from Flanking Maneuvers, this Feat let you Prone your foes when you crit (but it isn't very efficient, it seems to trigger in a random way)
4. You can benefit from the Prone effect of Avalanche of Steel.

Your solid CC adds up to party's CC so it will be a nice addition for an even safer run. TRs Daze, CWs Slow Down and Freeze, HRs Pull and GWFs Prone.

Avalanche of Steel is my Daily of choice, I insist on the Prone effect even if it break somehow my rotation, though Slam should be a valid option since, combined with Wicked Strike, it can mitigate some damage. I do think that the Prone effect is far preferable but eventually with a good healer that little mitigation can adds up.
Against bosses you can still bring Combat Advantage to you and your party members however, against some of them, many of your special abilities will lose their usefulness. I'm thinking at Lostmauth for example. Against it your CC abilities will be useless, there it's all about your DPS and your added CA. In a Boss fight like that I unslot Trample the Fallen for Wrathful Determination and Frontline Surge for Indomitable Battle Strike.
As for mobility... I found a way to make my toon more mobile. I use Punishing Charge as my third Encounter, and even if its damage isn't completely bad (well... less than half damage of Mighy Leap in a normal party situation, like 4-6% of total damage) I use it like the Trickster Rogue's dodge roll ability to flank enemies and to escape from AoE. So when I'm in a problematic situation I hit my mouse wheel and I escape from it (it can be even the reds on the Valindra's Clock for example); but there is a down side to that... when shifting you aren't shielded so you can suffer damage if you are getting hit. So it's ok for pursuing, ok for flanking, ok for avoiding AoE but don't use it thinking it's a dodge for normal hits because you will be hurt in that case, definitely.

Your rotation should be:
1. Mighty Leap (high AoE damage plus CA for the party, it will also disrupt mobs and will make you dodge some hits along the path)
2. Frontline Surge (solid AoE damage plus a Prone Effect)
3. At-Will
Use Punishing Charge as you please.

DPS:
Medium to High (variable, it depends on the setting).

CC:
Medium to High (Medium in a party setting, because of CC resistance).

PVP:
High.

Solo:
Easy.

Buffs:
Low.

Debuff:
None.

Heroic Feats: Disciple of Strenght (3), Toughness (3), Armor Specialization (3), Endless Assault (3), Steely Defense (5), Weapon Mastery (3), Devastating Critical (3).
As requested: if not Human remove points on Endless Assault.

Instigator Feats:
Student of the Sword (5), Vicious Advantage (5), Warrior's Rush (5, though 4 points can suffice if you find another Feat worthed), Flanking Maneuvers (5, though 1 point can suffice if you find another Feat worthed), Allied Opportunity (5), Group Assault (5), Instigator's Vengeance (1).

Destroyer Feats: Great Weapon Focus (5), Disciple of War (5).

Powers (solo PVE or party PVE):
At-Will - Wicked Strike (very high AoE damage) (rank 4)
At-Will - Sure Strike (high single target damage) (rank 3)
Encounter (1) - Mighty Leap (solid AoE damage plus CA for the party, it will also disrupt mobs and will make you dodge some hits along the path) (rank 3)
Encounter (2) - Frontline Surge (solid AoE damage plus it Prone affected mobs) (rank 3/4)
Encounter (3) - Punishing Charge (Low 4' damage plus added mobility) (rank 3/4)
Class Feature - Trample the Fallen (it greatly boost your DPS against controlled targets) (rank 4)
Class Feature - Weapon Master (it boost your Critical Chance up to 9%, especially useful matched with the Lostmauth set) (rank 4)
Daily - Avalanche of Steel (very high AoE damage plus it Prone affected targets) (rank 3/4)
Daily - Indomitable Strenght (very high single target damage) (rank 3).

Powers (Boss fights, assumed it's like Lostmauth with no mobs):
At-Will - Sure Strike (high single target damage) (rank 4)
At-Will - Wicked Strike (very high AoE damage) (rank 3)
Encounter (1) - Mighty Leap (solid AoE damage plus CA for the party, it will also disrupt mobs and will make you dodge some hits along the path) (rank 3)
Encounter (2) - Indomitable Battle Strike (very high single target damage) (rank 4)
Encounter (3) - Punishing Charge (Low 4' damage plus added mobility) (rank 3)
Class Feature - Wrathful Determination (it boost your DPS as your Determination fills up) (rank 4)
Class Feature - Weapon Master (it boost your Critical Chance up to 9%, especially useful matched with the Lostmauth set) (rank 4)
Daily - Indomitable Strenght (very high single target damage plus it Prone the affected target) (rank 3).

Advice:
Boost STR and DEX the same, you can roll with a focus on them and a couple of points in CON. Focus on Critical Strike, Armor Penetration and Power in that order (Armor Penetration gets priority over Power because of the Feat Disciple of War in the Destroyer tree).
It does not benefit from Life Steal class bonuses so, if you can't reach at least 10% of that ability (and it's common with low geared toons), focus on Regeneration for incoming Healing bonus and passive Healing when out of combat.

Boons (some untested, those are the ones I'll pick by mathematics):
Sharandar - Dark Fey Warder, Elven Ferocity (PVE)/Elven Tranquility (PVP), Elvish Fury (PVE, damage boost)
Dread Ring - Forbidden Piercing, Shadowtouch (PVE)/Enraged Regrowth (PVP), Endless Consumption (PVP/PVE, if you have at least 10% Life Steal)/Augmented Thayan Bastion (it adds up on damage resistance)
Tyranny of Dragons - Dragon's Thirst (5% more Life Steal, necessary if you want to benefit from Life Steal)/Dragon's Fury (small DPS boost)/Dragon's Revival (more Incoming Healing, good together with Regeneration's buff)
Icewind Dale - Cool Resolve, Appreciation of Warmth (good together with Dragons Revival and Regeneration's buff), Avalanche
Underdark - Primordial Vitality, Drow Ambush Tactics.

Equipment:
Duality set (Twisted), Lostmauth set, Burning Executioner (PVP)/Dusk and-or Elven set (PVE), Berserker's Gemmed Exquisite Elemental Chainmail and Chausses, Soulforged Enchantment (PVE)/Negation (PVP), Vorpal Enchantment, Ring of Brutality, Drowcraft Assault Ring, Savage enchantments in Offense slots, Azure enchantments in Defense slots. As for Artifacts I recommend the Lantern of Revelation, the Sigil of the Great Weapon Fighter (main) and the Sigil of the Devoted; the last slot is reserved for the Horn of Blasting (Lostmauth set). Put a Purified Black Ice Enchantment and a Black Dragon Glyph in Overload slots.

Companion:
I would suggest a Leader companion for a non self-healing GWF, an Angel of Protection. This unique companion will heal you but not your mates, it will also mitigate some damage dealt against you. You can give it a Necklace of the Loyal Commander to boost its healing abilities.
If you are tough enough, and you probably will be with all those mechanics in place, a Striker can add up to your DPS. A cheap one, still a good performer, is the Black Ice Prospector; it has good AoE and make you 5% more relient to foes AoE.

scathias

Some issues with your guide.

You are missing allocating 5 paragon feat points. Also You have allocated 23 heroic feat points. Are you human race? Please clarify and if you are human add some guidance of what to do with a different race.
Add some guidance on what ability score roll you should start with.

Can you explain your choice of trample the fallen over the destroyer class feature please? Trample is a 20% boost to controlled targets. Destroyer is a 36% damage boost all the time (excepting single target fights), and since you are using AoE encounters and hitting everything with wicked strike you are going to obtain and maintain those 3 stack immediately meaning that outside of boss fights destroyer is far better then trample. (and that is assuming 100% control rate, which will not happen)

You do not give any guidance as to marking targets with Daring Shout. Marks that you place on opponents also give CA to your whole team as well as providing a damage debuff (and an extra damage boost for you). Marks from Daring shout last over 15 seconds at rank 4 where as the CA from Mighty Leap only lasts 7.5 seconds. many foes cannot be silenced since they are immune to control effects and this limits the effectiveness of the silence. As such Daring Shout becomes more more useful to the team because of the debuff and longer mark duration (which gives CA to the party).

You should note in your guide that you should not increase your RI past 60%, as such slotting savage enchants can be a poor decision if you are already at 60% RI

In your commentary i think you are missing some decimals there is no such thing as a 27k SW. A 16/23k GWF is also not possible, this does need clarification because i am unsure if you are trying to make a point by exaggerating things past the point of believably or if you just missed a decimal.

You are missing boons (not listed) in ToD, IWD, DR, Sharandar and underdark. Please provide a complete list of what we should take and when making alternate choices is smart (ie, don't take armor pen boons when you already have 60% RI from gear)

You say damage with this build is good in pvp but give no power load out or pvp advice

flanking maneuvers only interrupts a target when you critically hit them from _behind_. This is likely why you are seeing so much trouble in having it activate

Finally, GWF should always take lifesteal boons. Here is why, Unstoppable grants temp HP in large amounts (will expand on this after) and as you gear up your lifesteal chance will slowly increase, if you choose to slot some darks for additional lifesteal chance this will speed up the process. Many guilds have the lifesteal boon which further increase your lifesteal. It is possible to get 3% lifesteal from the easy to reach ToD/DR/Underdark boons, plus an extra 4% lifesteal from the 5th ToD boon = 7%. now you just need to get 1200 lifesteal from darks (4 dark r8s, which are very easy to get, ask me if you need help making AD to do this) and you are at 10% even without a guild to help you.

when you go unstoppable you are granted 8-16% of your max HP as temp HP, this temp HP scales with your damage bonus though, so at 10k power you get an extra 25% temp HP. damage bonuses also increase the amount of temp HP, so if you used a skill like hidden daggers (+40% damage at rank 4) right before you went unstoppable you would gain an extra 40% extra temp HP. Due to the fact that you gain so much temp HP when you manage it correctly GWF have very little need for outside heals during solo play except for some lifesteal and inside dungeons your healer will take care of you in addition to your temp HP. As such a GWF is better off getting an augment pet so you can get extra stats (400k cost in the AH right now for the cheapest augment the Ioun Stone of Allure) rather then getting unnecessary heals from the angel. the extra stats from the augment will also provide you with more damage then a striker pet will in addition to not being a problem of taking aggro from you (which as an insitigator is very important since you have to be getting hit to keep up your capstone)

I have a 1,848 ilv gwf. he has 10k power and 5% lifesteal from boons and he does very well in soloing content (no lostmauth set). He is destroyer spec'ed and not instigator and uses daggers/daring shout/IBS as encounters. Destroyer and weapon master as features and sure strike/wicked as at wills

scathias

Daring Shout puts a mark on the mobs that it hits and the mark grants you combat advantage. If you are only getting 64% flank then you are not testing with the correct time frame (ie using information from before and during daring shout to reduce the average flank data reported, and using only the data after you use mighty leap so that it has 100% flank.) this perhaps is not intentional on your part but nonetheless is providing misleading and false information.

To be clear, Daring Shout puts Mark on all mobs it hits and the mark grants CA (what you are measuring as flank) to you when you hit them.

To comment on the Aggro, if you wait for your tank to enter the fight first and let him get aggro then the threat built by daring shout and the marks it gives will not make the mobs target you instead because your tank will already have built up enough aggro to hold the mobs on him against any threat you can build.

Can you explain how Trample the Fallen (not Ferocious Reaction as you mentioned above, unintentional mistake on your part i assume) is up all the time on mobs? what powers are you using that ensure they are controlled the whole fight? because if the mobs are not controlled in some way then trample isn't any good. I described above how it is easy to keep destroyer stacks up in a fight, especially since you are using so many AoE powers which makes Destroyer a much more effective damage boost then Trample.

You are still missing 5 paragon feat points you have 36/41 allocated right now.

And your alteration to your heroic feat points still does not work. You have too many points allocated to the t4 feats. To get to T2 feats you need to allocate 5 points in T1 feats, to get to T3 you need to put 10 points in T1 and 2 feats. To reach T4 feats you have to spend 15 points first and then you only have 5 feat points left to spend as a non human. So the feats and feat points per feat you are suggesting is impossible to get. If you are non human you can only put 5 points in T4 feats and you have to have at least 15 feat points spent before that.

scathias

Your silence lasts 1 second. your prone from FLS lasts 1 second. your prone from Flanking maneuvers lasts 2 seconds at max. And then you need to remember that the mobs reduce the time CC is active on them by 50% or more. Your anecdote about how you think it is always up is rather poor evidence for taking it over destroyer.

And again about DS vs mighty leap. DS gives your party a 8% damage boost (from the mark) in addition to granting CA. If you want to call your build a buff capable build then why are you not doing your best to maximize this capability? DS also gives you personally a 20% damage boost, which more then offsets the "damage" that comes from mighty leap.

And your feats still. You Are aware that Mighty Blade in the destroyer tree boosts the damage from mighty leap by 12.5% right? if you are going to insist on using mighty leap you might as well make it more effective.

And if you don't have a PvP build and rotation for this guide yet then please stop advertising it as such. Change your title and edit your post to say this is forthcoming. then re edit once you finally have something

And about saying to "focus on regen and incoming healing". This essentially tells people to not take lifesteal unless they can hit 10% all at once. You say you make your guide for the average person, but the information you give hurts people in the long run. If you go and take regen every time you have the option to instead of taking lifesteal you are forcing people who use your guide to respec later on (114k cost) in order to be able to take lifesteal boons. Regen healing outside of combat is nice, but it takes a lot of time to fill up your HP, if you take a couple potions it will do the same thing much faster, and HP potions drop all over the place. Regen will not help you to solo your dailies because it only increases your incoming healing while in combat, and as i said above, GWF don't need a healer for solo content because of their temporary HP mechanic. So take lifesteal from the start. It saves a lot of money later on and puts you in a much better place to build a good all around character

zekethesinner

arcofortep12 said:

What you say it's indeed true, after further testing I hit >90% with consistency, so I should have missed a mob in previous test. My fault.

I'll not slot it for the above mentioned reasons (no DPS, no dodge, no silence, unwanted aggro and it seems an hit and miss. With Mighty Leap I 'mark' with more consistency with Daring shout I miss 1 out of 4 or 2 out of 4 often, it seems to requires better positioning).

*runs around in circles and cries*

U r closer and closer to put me out of my mind...

Unwanted aggro? U have capstone which stacks up to 5 with ONLY 6s UPTIME, u need to be hit CONSTANTLY, what agro is unwanted then? :O

Every possible way to ensure it is a good way, this is how insta works...

I wont even comment on other "smart ideas", as usual, u r getting better and better in trolling ppl.

arcofortep12 said:

Daring Shout does not grant me CA, in fact my Wicked Strike with Daring Strike gives me 64% Flank while Mighty Leap gives me 100%, tested against Sharandar's powries

Thats the best summs up about ur skills one can get, and u provided it by yourself. :O :O :O :O

(Sin)cerely
Kain

scathias

If you take ACT and go test daring shout (only use DS (take off any debuff weapon enchants, and make sure you do not have student of the sword since that screws up the test when you crit since it adds an extra debuff and then hit with an at will) on dummies in the trade of blades or on mobs somewhere you will see that before you use daring shout your effectiveness is at 100%.
Effectiveness is the measure of how many _debuffs_ are applied to the mob that you are taking advantage of. In your combat log you see a line that says "your sure strike deals 120(100) damage right? the 120 is the damage you actually dealt, the 100 is what you would have dealt if there were not debuffs. Buffs (from things like hallowed ground, ITF) boost your actual damage. so if you had hallowed ground and no debuffs you would have"your sure strike deals 140(140). with a 20% debuff it would show 168(140).

so, go mark a target with DS and you will see that your effectiveness for your hits is 120% (if you are hitting mobs make sure you have more RI than their DR, which is why i advise dummies, the test is simpler on them). If an ally now hits that mobs their effectiveness with be 108% because marks are only worth a 8% debuff for your allies.

The CA effect is considered a buff to your damage and so it shows up just as larger numbers like i described with hallowed ground above.

And now you are implying that i don't give CA to my party? I have practiced a lot using daring shout and i can hit all the mobs in a group with daring shout, something you admitted would just take more practice on your part to get 100% flank right?

I would like to second zeke's question to you about how you keep up the instigator capstone if you are not getting hit. You need to be hit to keep up the capstone, we agree on this yes?

vida44

You forgot to add "+ HEALS + TANK" in the title.

scathias

arcofortep12 said:

I don't get the damage boost it gets your party if not CA, it isn't specified in the tooltip. How would it work? 20% damage boost?Are you talking about CA? I get CA from Mighty Leap, and this one isn't an hit and miss.

Aas you said, we already covered where your flanking percentage issue was, so that was settled. My post above was in response to this quote here, where you say that you don't understand how marks grant you additional damage above and beyond the bonus damage you get from CA. So my post was explaining to you how you can go test and see for yourself how marks grant additional damage. I will also note that marking targets with Daring shout grants you additional DR so that it is easier to survive while using it, and the mark does not wear off if the target hits you so testing on a dummy or on mobs works out to the same thing.

Daring Shout has a cap of 5 targets. which as it turns out is the number of mobs that is in each group in a dungeon. And since you and anyone else at your gear level is not going to be pulling more then 1 group of mobs at a time the 5 target cap is perfect. If a room has more then 5 targets in it then you are not going to be able to hit them all with Mighty Leap anyways since they are too spread out (like the drider room in eToS)

scathias

The DR from DS does not show up in the character sheet, and i have never cared enough to find out how much it gives because i survived just fine when i use it. Don't forget you get 30% DR from unstoppable as well when it is full.

And marked foes always have reduced DR, being hit does not remove the mark and it still applies the debuff

powderfinger

scathias said:

And again about DS vs mighty leap. DS gives your party a 8% damage boost (from the mark) in addition to granting CA. If you want to call your build a buff capable build then why are you not doing your best to maximize this capability? DS also gives you personally a 20% damage boost, which more then offsets the "damage" that comes from mighty leap.

I dont quite get that 20% extra dmg (8% for allies). Are you referring to the "Marked foes have reduced damage resistance until they attack you." part of the tooltip? Or is that a thing for all mark abilities? Why didnt I know that? Why isnt it in any tooltip? Plus I was just informed that mark gives CA. So if you feat the Powerful Challenge then daring shout gives you 35% more damage plus CA?
I came here , in the GWF forum, to see what people are saying about battle fury and daring shout. Which one would be more suitable as a damage buff that also buffs the party. Btw the tooltip for battle fury doesnt specify how much extra damage you do. The tooltips in this game are horrible. Its like they dont want us to understand the mechanics of the game

scathias

powderfinger#6772 said:

scathias said:

And again about DS vs mighty leap. DS gives your party a 8% damage boost (from the mark) in addition to granting CA. If you want to call your build a buff capable build then why are you not doing your best to maximize this capability? DS also gives you personally a 20% damage boost, which more then offsets the "damage" that comes from mighty leap.

I dont quite get that 20% extra dmg (8% for allies). Are you referring to the "Marked foes have reduced damage resistance until they attack you." part of the tooltip? Or is that a thing for all mark abilities? Why didnt I know that? Why isnt it in any tooltip? Plus I was just informed that mark gives CA. So if you feat the Powerful Challenge then daring shout gives you 35% more damage plus CA?
I came here , in the GWF forum, to see what people are saying about battle fury and daring shout. Which one would be more suitable as a damage buff that also buffs the party. Btw the tooltip for battle fury doesnt specify how much extra damage you do. The tooltips in this game are horrible. Its like they dont want us to understand the mechanics of the game

All marks have some levels of DR reduction on mobs (and players) whether it is stated or not. The DR reduction was added to them back in mod 4? i think somewhere around there but don't quote me on mod 4. And no, it is not stated anywhere so it is something we know because of the patch notes when it was released as well as a LOT of testing since then.

And yes, if you feat powerful challenge you get 35% more damage when using daring shout, then CA damage as well. Daring shout is worth 20% extra damage to the GWF that applies it, to his allies it is worth 8%. The mark from Threatening Rush is worth 8% to both the applying GWF and to allies.
On GF, their Tab mark is worth 20% for them (8% for allies), and the marks from Enforced Threat and Threatening Rush are both 8%.

Contrary to what Arco claims, if you mark a mob with Daring Shout and the mob then hits you, you still have the +20% bonus damage. It says the bonus damage vanishes, but the tooltip for DS hasn't changed since mod 0 and so it doesn't reflect the changes with how mark works.

DS is a skill most of the GWF player base uses because it is worth 20% unfeated and 35% feated (powerful challenge works even if you are not the mark applier though) and still helps allies. DS also builds determination which is very handy at the start of a fight. Battle Fury is worth at least a 20% damage buff for the GWF who uses it (+5% per rank and since it has 4 ranks 20% is a decent base assumption) and it gives 25% of it's buff to allies, so that would be 5% for allies. Lots of GWF are dropping IBS in favor of BF so that they can boost their at-will damage even more since at-wills are where a GWF gets the majority of their damage from anyways.

powderfinger

@scathias
Thanks that is all very useful for me. I started playing before underdark and still cant figure how everything in the game works.
Im thinking that Daring shout , Battle fury and Daggers would fit nicely. Play them and then keep at-willing. Sounds simple enough (maybe even boring?). Plus it seems to be the set up that benefits the party the most. I will try it.

scathias

Go look through the patch notes for mods 3, 4 and 5. the change to marks will be in there somewhere. And arco, BF is beneficial for a damage boost once a high percentage of your damage is coming from at wills only. You didn't see any good use from using BF because at your low gear lv encounters still make up a lot of your damage and so losing a damaging encounter will hurt you.

And powderfinger, I don't know about boring, you do need to pay special attention to keeping your rotation up, using skills in a good order and generally staying alive. Playing GWF at a high skill level is a bit more work in the general forum population would have you believe.

scathias

I have verified Daring Shout, as have dozens of other people. People use it for a good reason, because it is good. The debuff from mark is not removed if you get hit. Go try it out yourself and watch the effectiveness column in ACT after you get hit.

There is honestly only so much i can do for you arco, until you start accepting feedback and demonstrate a willingness to actually learn from the community and take feedback seriously...

scathias

You have something else messing with your data if you are getting 125%. DS alone is worth 120% as i have been saying. Your 5% is probably from student of the sword activating on a critical hit but that is just a guess.

Take Scale agility and Powerful challenge in Sentinal tree. Take Great Weapon Focus (very important since so much GWF damage comes from at wills). In the instigator tree you have 5 points to split between warriors rush and flanking manuevers. And if you use DS instead of Leap then put them in flanking and also switch into Nimble Runner (taking points from Allied Opportunity) since feating a skill you don't use is silly.

fizbad

arcofortep12 said:

It would be pretty bad by developers to not change a tooltip after a rework and leave it like that.

You're a funny guy. Did you start playing NWO yesterday?

malabogpigfeeder

PVE, stacks are too short in time, wicked strike is still not profitable over wms, cant tank like sentinel, cant dps like destroyer, grants, marks grant c.a. by themselves, stun on avalanche of steel and spinning strike seem to be the best feat around and even so, you will only be able to pick either sentinel or destroyer first feats, both paths have awesome first feats path.
PVP, intigator is very good, no doubt, stacks are normally lengthy enough and can stack were detroyer had dificulty n stack theirs, trample the fallen may be a good substitute to destroyer, mostly because is affected by all party controls, more deflect chance sprinting is usefull. I used instigator some months ago so i have a notion and i really enjoyed pvp, if anyone wants to drop destroyer for a bit try instigator iv.

fizbad

arcofortep12 said:

Stacks of what? What are you referring too? Wicked Strike debuff? Destroyer (no use)? Group Assault?

Instigator's Vengeance, obviously.