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State of the HR and whether the class has a future
feanor70118
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,170 Arc User
It is necessary to talk about the future of the HR class in Neverwinter – and whether it has a future at all. HRs find themselves in the same position as mod 4 TRs, where due to bad game mechanics, low damage and large buffs given to other classes, they were increasingly irrelevant, rarely played, and unable to contribute effectively in PVE or PVP. TRs got help – far too much of it – with mod 5. HRs have not. Many other people have raised these issues; I'm doing it because at this point repetition can't hurt. We deserve some answers.
In PVE, there are a few stubborn holdouts still playing the archery tree, but its low survivability and inadequate damage make it a curiosity at best. Almost no one plays the combat tree anymore whether in PVE or PVP.
In PVP, trappers can still be of use as a support class, but against practically any equally geared opponent of another class they are at a huge disadvantage. GWFs of course have to do little besides get hit to proc Unstoppable and spam sure strike. GFs still have a one-rotation kill with powerful, long-lasting control abilities that are not mitigated by dodges or control resist stats. CWS have an overpowered repel every few seconds combined with high damage. SWs can deal enormous damage and tank through their life steal abilities. TRs and OPs, of course, require no skill at all to play and have a 1k-1.5k item level advantage against most other classes.
Compared with this HRs can do basically no damage with their at-will powers. Their encounter powers and even dailies are out-damaged by the at will powers of some other classes. I have personally, with a 3.9k item level and about 14k power and 10k crit in pvp, stood off from a GWF and aimed one encounter power after another at him, watching his health bar heal on its own while I actually took damage due to Fey Thistle. Three guesses how long an HR would standing their under assault from the encounter powers of any other class. HRs' stealth power, Forest Ghost, has a long animation that eats up a significant part of its (very short) duration and makes it only marginally useful. HRs' dodge is tiny, does not evade the area of effect of, for instance, GWF at wills or smoke bomb, or much of anything in PVE, requiring the class to use two dodges where others only have to use one. Dodge immunity frames are also insufficient and often do not match the timing or placement of the dodge.
Certain encounter powers are so poorly designed that no one uses them: ambush and bear trap, for instance. Animations for many abilities are far too long. The charge cooldown of Cordon of Arrows is so long that it is foolish to use it in the race atmosphere of a group dungeon because it will leave us with no charges up and thus interfere with our ability to keep our cooldowns cycling if we keep up with a group. Many abilities, such as cordon of arrows or rain of arrows, either do not work at all or only partially work with weapon enchantment buffs, reducing their effectiveness hugely. Oak skin only heals based on base HP and not max HP, making it useless above level 60. The HP buff of Stag Heart is similarly useless. The animations of aimed shot, aimed strike and gushing wound are too long and unwieldy for use in combat. For some reason - and completely senselessly - HR gear provides even less damage resistance than CW gear.
HR feat trees are another issue. Though we are supposedly a striker class, our feat trees are woefully compared to others (I have done a line-by-line comparison of pathfinder/tracker with destroyer/swordmaster in another thread). Lest we forget, in the real world, trained archers were the dominant force on battlefields for millenia. A longbow arrow pierced the chest of Alexander the Great and ended his compaign of conquest at Multan. Outnumbered and starving archers fighting on foot in the mud against armored knights on foot (GFs and GWFs depending on their choice of weaponry) slaughtered them wholesale at Agincourt. About 1500 archers behind cover and on a hill devastated the armored cavalry of France at Crecy in their tens of thousands. The crossbowmen of Genoa were in demand as mercenaries for centuries. The compound bows of the Mongols allowed their small armies to annihilate larger, armored forces at range across most of the inhabited world. Yet in Neverwinter, bowmen do relatively insignificant damage. The feat trees need a complete rework.
The only strength left to HRs from mod 6 onwards was their stun ability, but as any player of the class can tell you, this is laughably ineffective against well geared pvp players of any class. Half the classes are essentially control immune (breathe on a GWF and you proc Unstoppable; TRs have ITC or the Whisperknife control break, not to mention stealth; Paladins have their control immunity aura and, besides, are a nonsensical entity in pvp for a dozen other reasons; I've shot at CWs, SWs, DCs, TRs and every other class and watched them simply hop around as if no one were applying strong or weak grasping roots or disruptive shot at all.
Some of this is doubtless due to the power creep that has been affecting PVP and deserves its own huge rework, but it has also been known to HRs that our control bonus buffs have never worked properly. The base two and a half seconds that roots or dazes supposedly last against players in PVP is, in reality, a quarter second at best in most cases even after the buffs are, again supposedly, applied. Compare this with Crescendo or smoke bomb or a whole array of other control abilities whose duration is NOT practically instantaneous and does, therefore, affect gameplay significantly.
TRs needed a complete rework by mod 5, having been ignored since mod 2, and got one – which admittedly went much too far. GWFs didn't need one at all and got one anyway for mod 6, making them hugely and unreasonably powerful for their gear. If the devs intend to leave the HR class in the game, they obviously must want people to enjoy playing it in both PVE and PVP. However, players can easily tell that the class has been over-nerfed, neglected and in many respects badly designed. Three and a half mods' worth of dealing with this is enough. It is long past time to bring the HR back into balance with other classes at its gear level.
In PVE, there are a few stubborn holdouts still playing the archery tree, but its low survivability and inadequate damage make it a curiosity at best. Almost no one plays the combat tree anymore whether in PVE or PVP.
In PVP, trappers can still be of use as a support class, but against practically any equally geared opponent of another class they are at a huge disadvantage. GWFs of course have to do little besides get hit to proc Unstoppable and spam sure strike. GFs still have a one-rotation kill with powerful, long-lasting control abilities that are not mitigated by dodges or control resist stats. CWS have an overpowered repel every few seconds combined with high damage. SWs can deal enormous damage and tank through their life steal abilities. TRs and OPs, of course, require no skill at all to play and have a 1k-1.5k item level advantage against most other classes.
Compared with this HRs can do basically no damage with their at-will powers. Their encounter powers and even dailies are out-damaged by the at will powers of some other classes. I have personally, with a 3.9k item level and about 14k power and 10k crit in pvp, stood off from a GWF and aimed one encounter power after another at him, watching his health bar heal on its own while I actually took damage due to Fey Thistle. Three guesses how long an HR would standing their under assault from the encounter powers of any other class. HRs' stealth power, Forest Ghost, has a long animation that eats up a significant part of its (very short) duration and makes it only marginally useful. HRs' dodge is tiny, does not evade the area of effect of, for instance, GWF at wills or smoke bomb, or much of anything in PVE, requiring the class to use two dodges where others only have to use one. Dodge immunity frames are also insufficient and often do not match the timing or placement of the dodge.
Certain encounter powers are so poorly designed that no one uses them: ambush and bear trap, for instance. Animations for many abilities are far too long. The charge cooldown of Cordon of Arrows is so long that it is foolish to use it in the race atmosphere of a group dungeon because it will leave us with no charges up and thus interfere with our ability to keep our cooldowns cycling if we keep up with a group. Many abilities, such as cordon of arrows or rain of arrows, either do not work at all or only partially work with weapon enchantment buffs, reducing their effectiveness hugely. Oak skin only heals based on base HP and not max HP, making it useless above level 60. The HP buff of Stag Heart is similarly useless. The animations of aimed shot, aimed strike and gushing wound are too long and unwieldy for use in combat. For some reason - and completely senselessly - HR gear provides even less damage resistance than CW gear.
HR feat trees are another issue. Though we are supposedly a striker class, our feat trees are woefully compared to others (I have done a line-by-line comparison of pathfinder/tracker with destroyer/swordmaster in another thread). Lest we forget, in the real world, trained archers were the dominant force on battlefields for millenia. A longbow arrow pierced the chest of Alexander the Great and ended his compaign of conquest at Multan. Outnumbered and starving archers fighting on foot in the mud against armored knights on foot (GFs and GWFs depending on their choice of weaponry) slaughtered them wholesale at Agincourt. About 1500 archers behind cover and on a hill devastated the armored cavalry of France at Crecy in their tens of thousands. The crossbowmen of Genoa were in demand as mercenaries for centuries. The compound bows of the Mongols allowed their small armies to annihilate larger, armored forces at range across most of the inhabited world. Yet in Neverwinter, bowmen do relatively insignificant damage. The feat trees need a complete rework.
The only strength left to HRs from mod 6 onwards was their stun ability, but as any player of the class can tell you, this is laughably ineffective against well geared pvp players of any class. Half the classes are essentially control immune (breathe on a GWF and you proc Unstoppable; TRs have ITC or the Whisperknife control break, not to mention stealth; Paladins have their control immunity aura and, besides, are a nonsensical entity in pvp for a dozen other reasons; I've shot at CWs, SWs, DCs, TRs and every other class and watched them simply hop around as if no one were applying strong or weak grasping roots or disruptive shot at all.
Some of this is doubtless due to the power creep that has been affecting PVP and deserves its own huge rework, but it has also been known to HRs that our control bonus buffs have never worked properly. The base two and a half seconds that roots or dazes supposedly last against players in PVP is, in reality, a quarter second at best in most cases even after the buffs are, again supposedly, applied. Compare this with Crescendo or smoke bomb or a whole array of other control abilities whose duration is NOT practically instantaneous and does, therefore, affect gameplay significantly.
TRs needed a complete rework by mod 5, having been ignored since mod 2, and got one – which admittedly went much too far. GWFs didn't need one at all and got one anyway for mod 6, making them hugely and unreasonably powerful for their gear. If the devs intend to leave the HR class in the game, they obviously must want people to enjoy playing it in both PVE and PVP. However, players can easily tell that the class has been over-nerfed, neglected and in many respects badly designed. Three and a half mods' worth of dealing with this is enough. It is long past time to bring the HR back into balance with other classes at its gear level.
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Or go GWF, throw a baby tantrum and rofl stomp everything in a micro second.
NW-DM9Pj62ZK 'Bear with Me'
NW-DOPPZAYKQ 'Retirement Plans'
NW-DKJMLS8OQ 'Sleepy in Cea Tull'
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
But where have you seen CW gear provide more damage resistance than HR gear?
Concerning the main topic, at least a trapper HR provides approximately the same control and damage as a CW, which is not as bad as you imply.
@ghoulz66 im seriously considering the change name is psycho gardener 0.0 its beautiful
That being said, the historical references (while astute and accurate!) have absolutely no bearing in relation to a DnD inspired/licensed MMO. Real world stops at the Log In Screen where Magic and Dragons take over!
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
With Defense still the worst defensive stat in Mod 6 I fail to understand why you would stack 20k Defense when half that amount in Lifesteal or Deflect (even as an Archer) would yield better results.
MY SW Archer has 112k HP, 15.6% Lifesteal and only 5k Defense and I have no issues with survivability. I have the Earthen weapon set which adds 25% DR at full stacks. It's how your build your toon that matters. Look at the boons. IMO you should be taking the healing boons from Shar and DR if you went for the damage ones.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
The inaccuracy part was more about saying other classes are mindless and needs so much talent.
Anyway, Archers HR do need a rework cause they don't deal enough damage.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
As for Trapper, in my opinion they perform quite well, the main problem is that it's the biggest dps dree which it should not be.
Archery should be by far the highest damage dealer in PVE, while few survivability BUT still able to solo pve content, bad in PVP
Trapper should be control/dots/buff OK in PVE, Good in PVP
Combat should be High burst/single target, Good in PVE vs Bosses, Good in PVP
This is how I see what the HR trees should provide.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
And I stand by my opinion that DC, GWF, OP, TR and GF are insanely simple to play, DC less so than the others.
If they did boost Combat's dps drastically, though, it'd prob have to come w/ a nerf to its lifesteal feats, since those also tie to its dps done, and Combat is good on the survival front as is imo.
Archery suffers from having its optimal dps conditions be easily disrupted due to the range stipulations on SotF, and the low base dmg on at-wills and most encounters. Its squishy-ness would be okay if base dps was boosted up a bit, though I wouldn't be against Hasty Retreat being given a small self-heal component.. or something.
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Seems like the Combat Tree survivability is good but the DPS can use a boost. The dodge could use a little more distance too.
I find the HR class to be alot of fun to play despite the low DPS. I hope this class is looked into and given some love!
Let's face it, the Ranger as a traditional D&D character is an icon of the genre. Well capable as a solo-able class, where even in books the ranger is portrayed as an adversary worthy of combat. Lord of the Rings portrays the Ranger as the legendary hero's with the elf Legolas who can move and shoot at the same time (something you can't do in Cryptic's interpretation of NWN!) and the human ranger Aragorn. In D&D the Ranger is a master of outdoors camouflage able to sneak right past enemies only at arms lengths away, moving silently undetected, and can track even a falcon on a cloudless sky (borrowed from Princess Bride, heh).
But none of these are characteristics are in Cryptic's version of the HR. The HR is hard to play because its under powered and rather bland as if no thought was put into the class. And much of this interpretation doesn't even follow the D&D I've played. For example The Ranger in true D&D is able to cast spells, has a favored enemy that gives it combat bonuses, and there's even an Arcane Archer sub class that puts emphasis on the bow as a formidable weapon, so I'm not sure Cryptic really tried to capture this class the way real D&D portrayed the Ranger, because in this setting it is a weak, WEAK toon.
Now, HRs... I must agree on Combat. Weak. Powerful weak. So much so that I respecced mine to Archery. She makes my CW look tanky, but deals massive damage (40k - 50k non-crit Aimed Shots) and only comes out to play with a very strong tank. I'm working up a Trapper, but with the number of toons I Have, she is only at level 61 and still doing extremely well in PVE, but not being level 70 and therefore not having faced the mod 6 stat curves on her yet, I can't give an informed opinion on the tree. Bottom line: HR does need some love, but isn't completely useless or incapable of doing anything.
In PVE the HR has its place as a controller (Trapper of course) that can do quicker disruption as any other class. Talk about mobs not getting to do their bigger attacks because they are interrupted each time. Cordon of arrows is THE encounter power to draw mobs close together for the GWF to hit them all at once. It's animation is not too long in my opinion and its effect is just perfect. And last is the dodge, which is perfect, too. Its short distance makes it more versatile than most other dodges and there is no problem to do a second dodge right after the first, if you need that - although I find that normally one dodge is enough to get out of harms way most of the time.
As far as I can see, the HR class is not the only class where not all feat trees are a good choice to play. But to have only one viable feat tree is surely one of the main reasons not many people play the class at the moment.
As a conclusion I hope the class would be left alone or wouldn't be changed in any major ways as I still have the most fun playing my HR, but there would be reasons to put some (re-)work into it. I strongly reject the notion to give the class a rework just because some jerks want a new (old) killer class in PVP.
Jack
Archery, melee, and trapper should all be played in both melee and ranged, except during some situations when it is possible to effective play in only one stance, such as killing a dragon only from ranged.
Since Cryptic fixed the bug which occasionally caused tanks to be one-shot killed in pve, there is less need for control and for fox cunning. What is left for HR to do in parties? Since HR has weak buffs/debuffs and can not heal party and because bosses are immune to control, often the expected role for HR in parties is to dps.
The problem with balancing HR for pve, is that HR has control and invisibility and self-healing. In pve, you might not care about such powers, but they can be used in pvp.
Let's talk about Valindra's Tower and Lair of Losmauth. In Valindra's tower, previously, Valindra's choke and her bodyguards would do a lot of damage very quickly. Lately, I see parties, with an average healer, will ignore the caskets and heal through any damage caused by the bodyguards.
When module 6 started, fox cunning was very useful to keep party alive when dragon does his big red AoE attack in Lostmauth's Lair. But sometime between module 6 and now, I notice the boss now does an additional small attack, right before the big red AoE. Fox cunning will no longer protect the party from the boss's big red AoE attack because the small attack occurs only a few seconds earlier.
When I first started playing HR, I and many other players, only played as ranged, but unfortunately, that's not the proper way to play HR. HR is designed to be played as both melee and ranged, even though some feats favor either ranged or melee.
Example: If Cryptic buffs Archery at-wills damage, then some combat/trapper players will re-spec to archery. Why? Because combat/trapper can still play as melee, and will get the higher archery at-will damage. If Cryptic buffs all at-will and encounter damage, then there will be less complaints from archery/combat HR's, but other classes may complain that trapper is overpowered.
I suppose Cryptic could disable melee on Archery HR and disable ranged on combat HR, and only trapper would have both. Unfortunately, I don't think Cryptic wants to completely separate pve/pvp and archery/combat/trapper HR's from each other.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
First: HRs got several periods of OPness. Module 3, for example.
Second: you are greatly mistaken when you say "skilled" GWFs were strong in module 4-5. You want to say "BiS geared" or "almost BiS geared" 18k+ were strong damage dealers. It was all reserved to the 20k+ GWF population (1% of the total?). Now, if you say that a class is fine IF it is strong at BiS geared levels and sucks under that threesold, then i want all classes to work like that. Truth is in module 4-5 GWF class was completely useless EXCEPT for the few (1%) ones who got 20k+ Gear Score. Which means: BiS, or close to BiS. Even so, TRs could easily kill them and even BiS GWFs in module 4-5 were squishy 1-shotting wonders. Don't believe? Watch any premade video of that time. There's one of Sobek, considered one of the best GWFs at the time, where yeah, he killed a lot, but was also taken down in seconds by the enemies.
Current HR is not even is such a bad spot. It's confined to a specific build (trapper) like most classes, but trapper is effective at any iLvL, thanks to the permarooting mechanic. I PvP on a 2.2k HR trapper and even at such low iLvL it can fight.
There's also the old video of a certain BiS HR outhealing the damage of a certain BiS TR and winning the vs. I don't call that weak.
Needs a rework/rebalance? Yes. Like GWF, TR, GF, OP, SW,DC and so on...
But can't compare with how useless and weak module 4-5 was. In my opinion.
First of all the class desing and the way how do it fight is matter not only raw dps.
If HR would have similar dmg as GWF game would be doomed. .
HR have kinda good dodge features also ability to switch from range to close range combat mode.
So HR can achieve victory due dodge. I have met HR's in game who are not so great geared but in Stronghold could dance with dragon without got killed or take lostmouth in 1vs1 even he is not even 3k GS. ..
U all guys here forgot about RPG(RolePlayGame)
There are plenty of players here in NWO who try something new.
Like TR decide act as tank in epic dungeons. Fail land latter complain that TR are too weak and need buffs.
DC heal build complain that he can't compete with GWF by dps and also complain about class disbalance.
GF instead acting as tank decide to go with full focus in dps.. And u know how it look like.. Couple HAMSTER slaps from monsters and paper tank dead.. And latter he complain about class disbalance.
By classic mmorpg is simple thing.
SHielded characters, tanks are doing low dmg but can last fight longest.
Heavy weapon/dual weapon have largest close range dmg output but slightly lower survivability/def/deflect.
Supporters low dps output but focusing on buffing and healing instead acting as dps freak.
Nukers/mages. high dmg output from range but least survivability when comes close range fight.
Archers mid dmg output and mid survivability.
Rogues(TR) pure single target execution beast. But not for fight against many enemies. And signature movie in most mmorpg is stealth/hide.
And Debufers(CW) Control,debuff victims and via them inflict great dmg.
Now here in neverwinter guys want to have GWF dmg output and own class survivability. And don't even though that some classes are desinged to be dmg dealer in mind and all trees are just slight/minor modification but not 180 degree changing. If u choosed to be GWF u will not be supporter.
IF u DC u will not be dmg freak as GWF or CW.
IF u TR u will not be as TANK who can hold many monsters without problems.
IF u are CW u will not be healer as DC.
So maybe HR don't have GWF dmg output but this class have way better dodge/evade stuffs...
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
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And your opinion is based on seeing another player
? And what good is a HR's utility when it's useless and usually not worth using.
So here's an idea that would hold to the lore of a Ranger. Introduce a camouflage feature where if the HR stands still long enough it blends into the environment, and if it moves half its speed the HR stays concealed. But the effect is not like being invisible, rather the effect is NOT DRAWING ANY AGGRO from monsters. This means a HR can emulate features like Pass Without Trace, a D&D Ranger spell, and sneak past mobs in PVE. This would support my thesis that the Ranger is about survival, not tanking or rushing into battle like a GWF.
The player playing an HR would then have options, choose its battles as you will, like a Ranger does. Mentally calculate its odds to fight the enemy at the gate or sneak past it instead of the only choice of "fight, fight, fight" like Grunk the Barbarian...."Uhg, me Grunk. Smash and fight though"....BORING!