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Eidolon fix suggestion : post your opinion

monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,070 Arc User
edited November 2018 in Suggestions Box
Comparing difference of Eidolon from last year and now.

The Eido run last year.


Eido run today.


We can find out some huge differences from comparing those two videos.

Eidolon use to summon Red 'Shadow Crystals' / green 'Enervating Crystals' / yellow 'Shadow Portals' each type at certain cycle.
But now he is summoning different type of Crystals / Portals at the same or very similar timing, also too much quick for us to cover them all.

If it is difficult to fix the cycle, my personal suggestion is,

1.Please remove Enervating Crystals heal effect to Eidolon when it explode.
2.Please remove 60 minute timer on Eidoln. Just 1 player moving toward Eidolon starts countdown before gathering are done and make it automatic fail.
3.Please fix rewards. Difficulty of Eidolon is not even similar to the other Cosmics giving us same amounts.


After Eidolon health become lower then 1/2, Eido starts to summon 3 Crystals/Portals.
He use to summon each type of Crystals / Portals each time before.
But now he summons several Crystals / Portals at same or similar time, that means 6 Crystals/Portals exists in stage.
Usually we must have defeat them all very quick.
It was able while those were summoned 3 at time but 6, sometimes with one-shot-kill wide AoE Geysers falling toward us same time.

We are trying to do with avoiding defeat some of red 'Shadow Crystals' in 'good' position just CCing, but this depends where they spawn and this is totally luck.

But when both of Shadow Crystals , Enervating Crystals and Shadow Portals summoned at same or similar timing at very close position, it is hard for us to defeat/CC all of those 6 Crystals/Portals.
Eidoln get huge amount of heals, or even a automatic team-wipe with Geysers and Enervating Crystals exploding or Shadow Portals summoning Portal Guardians at same time.

We can automatic fail with just very few players doing wrong. I don't care for this because Eidolon is the final boss in the game and should keep some difficulty.
But even with best players online gathering, Eidolon run is similar as gamble with very low win-rate and poor rewards.
We can't fix new tips because what/where/when totally 'depends on luck'.
Yes players must do this in right way. So I don't say "please make it more easy", but let us able to make 'right way' to succeed. No thanks for the gamble.

Most skilled players whom already have been finished unlocking costumes are avoiding to do Eidolon anymore.
Rewards doesn't make sense because all other Cosmics gives us same amount with just a routine work that never fail. Ape/Kiga are able to do with 6 players (or even less) knowing how-to-do.


If anyone has other suggestion for Eidolon fix, please feel free to post your idea.
If you think we don't need any fix, please come to Eidolon to help defeating him and prove us the 'smart play'.
Post edited by monaahiru on
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Comments

  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    Reduce enervating crystal health by 15% to compensate for bugged damage resistance. Done.
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,070 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    Compared Eidolon 2017 and 2018.

    I'm sure each red/green/yellow are summoned less at full~2/3 at 2017 but he summons more at 2018.
    After 2/3 are nightmare with red/green/yellow summoned with too much quick cycle then before.

    I hope Devs will take a look on this post.

    Gamble depend on luck shall not effect for mission taking over a hour.
    It's difficult to keep concentrate for over 60 mins, including unlocking QWZ OMs.
    Doing Eido including unlocks are like 90 mins game with no taking break now. And also gamble.

    I'm even doing much better then 2017. o3o

    I hope Devs will take a look on this vide and will be a hint fr them to fix it more enjoyable contents.
    Post edited by monaahiru on
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,300 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    It is. But winning should feel like winning.

    One of the most infamous bosses in MMOs history was FFXI's Absolute Virtue, with players having to resort to follow a very specific strategy (that it took players years to figure out), fighting him for 18 hours or outright cheating in order to beat him. Upon defeat though he was guaranteed to drop 1 or multiple of very rare items that could be used to trade for the strongest gear in the game at the time.

    AV was mostly a slog though, a more challenging example considered by many as one of the hardest bosses in any MMO was TERA's Shandra Manaya, which even if properly prepared the boss was super aggresive and the whole thing could go to **** within seconds if the wrong person was killed, and you only had 12 minutes to beat her so you couldn't play it safe. Defeating her however guaranteed 1 drop that you needed to craft the strongest Weapons and Armors in the game at the time, along with a chance at the 2nd best Weapons/Armor that you could sell for profit to those who weren't skilled enough to run the dungeon.

    Here, if you defeat Eido you get...11 SCR/GCR...and maybe a pair of panties, yay.

    So currently the situation with Eido (now that it's been done again cause there were like 4-5 months where no attempt was made at all) is that it fails often and now and then we beat him after 30-40 minutes of struggle, by the end of which you realise you could have used that time for more profitable things, like the OMs right there on the same map that give you up to 20 SCR before diminishing returns.​​
    @lezard21
    Kaiser Behemoth, Ethereal Queen, Fenrir, Galen, Fujin, Madeen
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,300 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    So I don't actually remember (cause I barely pay attention to this kind of things) how much HP Green Orbs have, but someone in chat informed me it was something around 350k, and I decided to do some quick maths.

    350k/10 seconds = 35k/sec

    Divided by 4 players = 8.7k/sec. Divided by 6 players = 5.8k/sec

    Manageable

    However, orbs have 42% resistance now. Meaning that you would need at least 6 players that deal 8.7k DPS or 9 players that deal 5.8k DPS per orb.

    Meaning you'd need a total of 27 players with 5.8k DPS.

    Now of course this number in reality would be a bit lower due to the fact that we can debuff the orbs, and if we are LUCKY orbs can spawn close together, so I'mma eyeball that best case scenario you will require 20 players with 5.8k DPS and I think that this is quite a steep DPS check, specially if you consider that the 10 seconds limits the amount of debuffs you can apply on the orbs and that not all powersets have been revised and optimized to do above 5k DPS.​​
    @lezard21
    Kaiser Behemoth, Ethereal Queen, Fenrir, Galen, Fujin, Madeen
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    We certainly didn't have a raid of people doing 5.8k dps earlier tonight, and we were taking down all 3 green orbs, even when they were far apart. What really matters is getting green orbs soon after you failed green orbs, cause of that debuff. In phase 3 you pretty much have to consistently succeed at green orbs, letting even one pop is at the very least going to knock you back to phase 2 due to failing the next green orbs. Every time we failed a phase 3 green orbs tonight, it was either because we had the debuff from letting one pop previously, or because people didn't spread out very well.

    It seems like if we let a green pop in phase 3, we need to accept that we're going back to phase 2 and just try to avoid a wipe; focus only on two green orbs, let the third one pop, cause if we try to go for all 3 with the debuff we're likely to have 2 or 3 pop and that's a potential wipe.

    Greens may simply be more technically demanding than how we're treating them. It's proven that we can take down 3 greens, even without superVixydps levels present. The problem is getting people to adjust strategies on the fly when things aren't heading down the standard path.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    Checking a log (from a successful run), it appears greens have 271k hp, and typical real damage resistance winds up considerably lower due to debuffs (of two I looked at, one took pre-mitigation 322k, one took 288k); remember that master villains do not have DR on debuffs, though if there's a cap to how many copies a debuff can have that still applies.

    Vixy's dps test for Cosmic HQ was 55k in 10s. About 6 people who can do that against PH dummies should be able to drop a green.
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,300 Arc User
    Cool. My eyeballing was not wrong. We are back to needing 20 people with unrealistic amount of DPS​​
    @lezard21
    Kaiser Behemoth, Ethereal Queen, Fenrir, Galen, Fujin, Madeen
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    Well, six if they all do the minimum. I think the record when we were doing those tests was around 130k.
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,070 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    lezard21 wrote: »
    Cool. My eyeballing was not wrong. We are back to needing 20 people with unrealistic amount of DPS​​

    We are back to needing 20 people with unrealistic amount of DPS with everyone doing everything correct like a machine. No one MUST use any pets or lounge powers.
    Just 1 AFK people going to take bio break is a automatic fail. Random AT people in run is a automatic fail. No one are allowed to grab foods or go toilet during a run because its NOT a right and smart play style Devs assumed to do Eidolon. Pee in bottle or something near by and keep concentrate to Eidolon, never move from your desktop during fight going on. No laptops because of risk of DC laptop causes risk of automatic fail. Wut the ffffffufufufu... o3o





    Please fix Eidolon that can happen 24 hours every day such like other Cosmics or TA, not less then one chance just taking whole day for gathering for nearly 100% fail...

    Post edited by monaahiru on
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    I'm surprised that some folks think Eido will be changed at all. It's been a long time without a change. Development has moved on to other things.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    lezard21 wrote: »
    20 people with unrealistic amount of DPS

    If it's unrealistic, then why do we manage to down all 3 greens, even while spread out, now?

    You talk as if we never manage to do that, when in fact we do it quite often.​​
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,070 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    *Reward suggestion.
    Please fix rewards. Difficulty of Eidolon is not even similar to the other Cosmics giving us same amounts. more GCR/SCR, with more better item drop rate or new item drops would make enough sense. Eidolon is far difficult more then any other Cosmics or TA.

    *Timer suggestion.
    Please remove 60 minute timer on Eidoln. Just 1 player moving toward Eidolon starts countdown before gathering are done and make it automatic fail.

    *Game balance suggestion.
    Plan A. Please remove Enervating Crystals Eidolon heal effect when it explode.
    Plan B. Please Reduce Enervating Crystals health by 15% to compensate for bugged damage resistance.
    Plan C. Please fix each greens/reds/yellows summoned by 2 not 3, after Eidolon life going down, will make it possibility to finish.
    Plan D. Please fix health of each greens/reds/yellows 2/3 compared to now, should also could make a sense.
    Plan E. Please fix Eidolon summoning greens/reds/yellows and Geyser more slower cycle.

    I'm thinking it isn't impossible for Devs to fix Eidolon with ether of any idea. But now, its a miracle, not difficulty or not even being lucky to finish defeat Eidolon.
    I'm going to post YouTube the fail run for today after this, but its making me very lazy to edit and export video taking over a hour every times failing...
    Post edited by monaahiru on
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    monaahiru wrote: »
    *Timer suggestion.
    Please remove 60 minute timer on Eidoln. Just 1 player moving toward Eidolon starts countdown before gathering are done and make it automatic fail.

    Let's take a page from Pantagruel's book on this. The timer no longer starts based on proximity. Instead, there is a yellow orb in the middle of the boss arena. When we destroy this yellow orb, that is both when the timer starts, and when Eido first spawns. The orb regens X health per second so that it takes a bunch of dps to actually destroy it so that one person can't (accidentally) destroy it and start the fight.

    This would also have the side effect of letting the tank and healers get into position where they know Eido is going to spawn, before he actually spawns.​​
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,070 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    spinnytop wrote: »
    monaahiru wrote: »
    *Timer suggestion.
    Please remove 60 minute timer on Eidoln. Just 1 player moving toward Eidolon starts countdown before gathering are done and make it automatic fail.

    Let's take a page from Pantagruel's book on this. The timer no longer starts based on proximity. Instead, there is a yellow orb in the middle of the boss arena. When we destroy this yellow orb, that is both when the timer starts, and when Eido first spawns. The orb regens X health per second so that it takes a bunch of dps to actually destroy it so that one person can't (accidentally) destroy it and start the fight.

    This would also have the side effect of letting the tank and healers get into position where they know Eido is going to spawn, before he actually spawns.​​

    That also sounds make sense.



    Yes we need fix.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,070 Arc User

    But fail.

    I should start to say that Eidolon is broken. People are doing right but we can't defeat. Q.Q
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    monaahiru wrote: »
    I should start to say that Eidolon is broken. People are doing right but we can't defeat. Q.Q

    I dunno, when I see barely anyone go to one of the green orbs, I wouldn't call that "doing it right".​​
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,300 Arc User
    Here I made this to help you understand
    Vzoj34G.jpg​​
    @lezard21
    Kaiser Behemoth, Ethereal Queen, Fenrir, Galen, Fujin, Madeen
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,300 Arc User
    Damn I forgot Rampages are a thing. Imagine a blue dot inbetween Events and QWZ with the word "Ruhmpuhgeez" doodled in crayon.​​
    @lezard21
    Kaiser Behemoth, Ethereal Queen, Fenrir, Galen, Fujin, Madeen
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,300 Arc User
    Name me 1 instance in the game where more than 3 players are required to work in coordination to the best of their skills.​​
    @lezard21
    Kaiser Behemoth, Ethereal Queen, Fenrir, Galen, Fujin, Madeen
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    I'm curious to how this tangent is even relevant. Are you saying that the difficulty curve should be some other shape? If that's the case, I'll remind you that you decided that that was the shape of it, so you could move those dots to any other arbitrary position and shape the curve as you like, just like you did when you MS Painted that graph initially.

    Here, I did it for you. Is the problem solved now?
    TMkFREx.jpg

    Btw I moved "rest of the game" to the bottom line, since I don't think the concept of "negative challenge" really exists. It would have to be something where doing worse actually leads to better results, and CO doesn't have that. We can consider the bottom line to be the lowest available challenge the game offers. Could be argued that we need to split out content a bit more but, eh, I'm fine with the categories.​​
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,070 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    80% successful and 98% fail has a huge differences.
    hrnLAAX.jpg
    My view of chart.
    Because Cosmics never 'fail', people just give up or take long some time.

    I've never done DPS in Eidolon after bugged, so I don't have any idea about DPS though, but I've confirmed my top DPS build can do around 4.1k DPS at last Kigatilik in top 5, that means my DPS build having all gold gears with r9 mods aren't still enough to deal with greens/reds/yellows having around 350k health in 10 seconds.

    350k/10 seconds = 35k/sec

    Divided by 4 players = 8.7k/sec. Divided by 6 players = 5.8k/sec

    Unmanageable for my DPS builds because 4.1k DPS on mine.
    We need some special tricks over Kamokami's endgame DPS guide for over 20 DPS players. o3o
    Post edited by monaahiru on
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,192 Arc User
    monaahiru wrote: »
    Cosmics never 'fail'. o3o

    Well yes because they don't have a timer, so you could just fold everything other than Eido into the same blue dot, except for Smash alerts which would be approximately 1 pixel higher than the "everything dot". Then just place Eido some arbitrary distance from that dot... place higher the more you want to exaggerate your claims o3o​​
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,300 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    snip

    I am actually glad that you took the time to correct my image to fit your perception of difficulty. Because "unbugged Eido" is no longer doable. So with that into account the current ingame situation using your perception of content difficulty is as follows

    Ajv8TGe.jpg

    ie. you are admitting that the jump between Cosmics and bugged Eido is unlike any other difficulty spike ingame and there is currently no content in between to act as a bridge to build player behaviour for tackling Eido. This is all based on your perception of the difficulty curve, and thus, not exaggerated.​​
    @lezard21
    Kaiser Behemoth, Ethereal Queen, Fenrir, Galen, Fujin, Madeen
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    The change I'd want most if give a bit more time before the greens go active. At the moment it depends far to much on being lucky with placement, when unlucky half the team is still running towards the orb when they can be attacked.
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,070 Arc User
    From tank's view, he reported the move though getting hit tank, the damage isn't synced the animation.
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,300 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    A lot of Eido attacks are out of sync. Shadow Eruption (the purple bubble) in particular has a very nasty delay dependant on your distance to him. The shadow pools from phase 1 can get 1 or 2 hits on you if you jump out half a second after they appear.

    It's best to disregard muscle memory in this fight and don't let go of block till you see the numbers.​​
    @lezard21
    Kaiser Behemoth, Ethereal Queen, Fenrir, Galen, Fujin, Madeen
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