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Some suggestions for Neverwinter
Archived Post
Member Posts: 5,050,278 Bounty Hunter
Recently the time seems to elapse even faster than before. Just 10 more months and we are able play Neverwinter. Here please let me share some of my suggestions for this game, based on what I had experienced in another D&D MMO.
I used to play DDO, and was focusing on two spell caster classes: Wizard and Invoker (in DDO it is called Favored Soul). Therefore my opinions are mainly from a spell caster's point of view.
1. Let players have enough equipments of different alignments to choose from
Although I personally don't like evil alignment, there seems to be a mysterious rule in the cosmos which allow Good and Evil coexist. Therefore I have no comment if developers introduce evil-aligned equipments into the game. But please introduce at least an equal amount of good-aligned equipments for players to choose from.
In DDO, many useful equipments are evil-aligned. Useful good-aligned equipments make up only a small proportion of the total equipments. That really made me sick. Players should not be forced into using evil stuff when they want to be stronger.
And it's very ridiculous that a game's developers claim their game is based on hero's viewpoint while most players in the game use evil-aligned weapons. I hope Neverwinter will not become something like that.
2. Please do not introduce unethical quest contents
In DDO, there is a quest in which you have to kill lots of good-aligned Eladrin because for some reason they were under misapprehension that you are evil intruders. If you don't kill them, you can't complete the quest and can't be flagged for a popular raid. Also, there is a quest in which you are ordered by a church to slaughter followers of another church.
I don't know out of what purposes did those developers introduce such quests. That's sheer unethical and immoral. The first issue and this one were the main reasons I left that game.
If inevitably there need to be similar quests in Neverwinter, please let players have other different methods to complete them, for example, players may use their Diplomacy skills to avoid the fights.
3. Meaningless slaughter and sabotage is harmful to players' mind development
It's no doubt that bad people/creatures should be punished or be eliminated if they will endanger others. However, it is not okay to encourage slaughter and sabotage throughout the game.
In DDO, players are told intentionally to slay as many creatures as they can in wildernesses and in quests. And sabotaging breakables like crates and vases in quests are encouraged, too. The more you destroyed, the more exp points you earn. That means if you want to level up faster, you have to destroy more lives and stuff. Such ideas and values they try to convey to their players are not quite right. Even worse, that causes bad influences on players' mind development, especially to teenager players.
Although evil creatures should be killed, players shouldn't be encouraged to kill for rewards. Exp-earning doesn't always has to be bind with the amount of slaughter and sabotage.
4. Make monsters and foes appear at random spots
It's boring that you do a quest several times and all monsters appear at their same spots every time. If players know which monster will spawn at where, they can even surround a ready-to-appear monster's spot and kill it together in no seconds when it appears.
I believe players can have more unpredictable fun if monsters have random or at least some different spots for them to appear.
5. Recycling existing resources is unprofessional
Icons, dungeon models, special background music and npc's body animations are recycled in the "another D&D MMO". That's very unprofessional in my opinion. I was very disappointed to see that. And monster models are overly, repeatedly used so players always see those same monster types from low level quests to high level quests. They would rather recycle existing resources and decrease the quality of a D&D game than creating new things.
When developers have extra time, they probably need to make the game better and fix existing bugs first, not create boring new contents in order to make money.
The above are my two cents. Thanks for reading. I hope Neverwinter will be an excellent D&D MMO.
I used to play DDO, and was focusing on two spell caster classes: Wizard and Invoker (in DDO it is called Favored Soul). Therefore my opinions are mainly from a spell caster's point of view.
1. Let players have enough equipments of different alignments to choose from
Although I personally don't like evil alignment, there seems to be a mysterious rule in the cosmos which allow Good and Evil coexist. Therefore I have no comment if developers introduce evil-aligned equipments into the game. But please introduce at least an equal amount of good-aligned equipments for players to choose from.
In DDO, many useful equipments are evil-aligned. Useful good-aligned equipments make up only a small proportion of the total equipments. That really made me sick. Players should not be forced into using evil stuff when they want to be stronger.
And it's very ridiculous that a game's developers claim their game is based on hero's viewpoint while most players in the game use evil-aligned weapons. I hope Neverwinter will not become something like that.
2. Please do not introduce unethical quest contents
In DDO, there is a quest in which you have to kill lots of good-aligned Eladrin because for some reason they were under misapprehension that you are evil intruders. If you don't kill them, you can't complete the quest and can't be flagged for a popular raid. Also, there is a quest in which you are ordered by a church to slaughter followers of another church.
I don't know out of what purposes did those developers introduce such quests. That's sheer unethical and immoral. The first issue and this one were the main reasons I left that game.
If inevitably there need to be similar quests in Neverwinter, please let players have other different methods to complete them, for example, players may use their Diplomacy skills to avoid the fights.
3. Meaningless slaughter and sabotage is harmful to players' mind development
It's no doubt that bad people/creatures should be punished or be eliminated if they will endanger others. However, it is not okay to encourage slaughter and sabotage throughout the game.
In DDO, players are told intentionally to slay as many creatures as they can in wildernesses and in quests. And sabotaging breakables like crates and vases in quests are encouraged, too. The more you destroyed, the more exp points you earn. That means if you want to level up faster, you have to destroy more lives and stuff. Such ideas and values they try to convey to their players are not quite right. Even worse, that causes bad influences on players' mind development, especially to teenager players.
Although evil creatures should be killed, players shouldn't be encouraged to kill for rewards. Exp-earning doesn't always has to be bind with the amount of slaughter and sabotage.
4. Make monsters and foes appear at random spots
It's boring that you do a quest several times and all monsters appear at their same spots every time. If players know which monster will spawn at where, they can even surround a ready-to-appear monster's spot and kill it together in no seconds when it appears.
I believe players can have more unpredictable fun if monsters have random or at least some different spots for them to appear.
5. Recycling existing resources is unprofessional
Icons, dungeon models, special background music and npc's body animations are recycled in the "another D&D MMO". That's very unprofessional in my opinion. I was very disappointed to see that. And monster models are overly, repeatedly used so players always see those same monster types from low level quests to high level quests. They would rather recycle existing resources and decrease the quality of a D&D game than creating new things.
When developers have extra time, they probably need to make the game better and fix existing bugs first, not create boring new contents in order to make money.
The above are my two cents. Thanks for reading. I hope Neverwinter will be an excellent D&D MMO.
Post edited by Archived Post on
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Comments
That's all we agree on.
As for point 1. Try adding in context that the items your ranting against we're either the personal possessions of a Lich or crafted useing infernal ingredients. It's not like they just sit around going "Hey, how can we cram evil into this item".
Points 2 and 3 aren't even valid for several reasons. 1st, you choose to argue morals and ethics which are subjective at best since the very from person to person I.e. what's moral/ethical for you isn't necessarily the same for me. You rant about being forced to use evil items and then turn around and suggest that your morals and ethics be forced upon everyone else. Seriously? :rolleyes:
Then your rant against violence in video games citing and yet here you are itching to play one. I don't even know where to start here....1st how about putting the responsibility of what an impressionable mind is exposed to where it belongs I.e. THE PARENTS. It's not a developers job or anyone else's to try and monitor what gets seen by a child.
Bottom line is I love seeing new ideas that have merit and discussing them but can we please save the sermons for Sunday cause they make me sleepy.
On the various attempts I've made to play DDO, I've always lost interest in the game before getting to weapons with alignments, but I agree that all of the best weapons should not belong to any 1 alignment group. "Balance, in all things."
This request is problematic, because there are many different codes of ethics that people choose to follow. Also, many roleplayers choose to roleplay to explore ways of life that they themselves would not choose, and in doing so learn more about themselves.
Although, I do agree that players should not be forced to complete a quest in a certain way, and I fully support and encourage allowing multiple paths to victory.
I think you mean "vandalism" rather than "sabotage". Also, I don't agree that violence in games is harmful to players' mental development. However, I do agree that way DDO awards xp multipliers for killing more enemies or breaking more crates & barrels hurts the game. I think a flat xp reward for completing a quest, by whatever means, would be better than what they did because it would allow players to play the way they want to without having to worry about getting more xp or less xp as a result.
Not everyone would agree with this philosophy... either in terms of players or characters. "Live and let live."
Agreed! Randomness is very useful in creating replay value.
Some amount of this is unavoidable, in practice. Can you imagine the development resources it would take to create every NPC, every piece of furniture, and every piece of architecture to be truly unique? The game would never be finished. With that said, there is a happy middle ground to be found, and some games fall short. (World of Warcraft, I'm looking at you.)
I do agree that many game companies don't put enough effort into bug fixes, however. If a bug presents a material difficulty in players' ability to effectively play the game, even if it's only a minority of players who use a certain unpopular ability, it needs to be fixed ASAP.
@nekoatl
If you were trying to convey having many different choices I think you went way the wrong way about it. I agree that choice is important but when you start throwing around words like evil, ethical, immorale, etc...you just lost all credibility and became the Internet version of a televangelist. So in the future I would find another way to illustrate your argument.
Secondly, you cannot ask for freedom of choice to play evil, then ask we do not encourage evil/unethical acts. If ever a person would be inclined to be selfish to benefit while others suffer, the evil person would.
I saw the invention of video games, on the "stand-up console" of pong (there was another earlier but that wasn't a public release more a geek network thing when only universities and the militarily had "the internet") to the first home systems (which were pong, skeet, and that's about it) to the Atari, and a whole slew of things from gaming systems (eg Atari 2600) to the computer (PC's made in garages then by companies then by Apple for the Macintosh) to the next generation of video gaming system platforms, and now the social media gaming revolution.
And I remember the first transitions from miniatures to that post-chainmail system we call D&D to all the gaming congestion we have on our MMO/PC/Books/Facebook today all things RPG-related.
And I've endured hearing how all these things are evil and ruining society and the person mainly saying here is my biased person's report that says I'm right because I won't stop until I stop things I don't like or fear etc.
And guess what?
The world didn't end when we played a game, no matter what kind.
The world didn't stop caring because Grand Theft Auto was successfull enough to beat hookers with a bat in a game.
And the world didn't become a cruel place because we're no longer forcing moral messages in books, TV shows movies, etc. that were done after comic books were censored and banned for decades which you many not agree with according to the concept of freedom of expression the first amendment grants.
Just like I didn't chase after birds in a desert with rocket shoes and fall off a cliff because I saw it on a cartoon over and over and over again while my parents slept on Saturdays.
It's a game, it's not real, and if you don't want people being corrupted by it, make sure people make the PARENTS AND GUARDIANS OF MINORS START BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT MINORS ACCESS!
Outside of that, it's legally a bunch of unproven bull, and often (but not always) a failure of parental people to teach said values in the first place, not taking time to do so and placing kinds in front of the TV/computer/console as the "babysitter." And then these guardians of the minors have the nerve to claim the same thing they use as a surrogate is "corrupting" their kids while they don't do parenting themselves.
Again, not always, but often. As in I studied social psychology and know how the group collective reacts to people and bad actions witnessed and reacting complacency studies understanding.
So, if you wish freedom of choice, then accept that choice, but respect the consequences, and educate your minors (and nobody else's) if you don't want others to have bad ideas, and this last part is key:
Tell them the games are not real and don't ever do it in real life or they will be punished severely.
It's true that asking for freedom of choice to play any alignment and then ask for no unethical quests is contradictory. You are right. I guess such things can't be prevent in a D&D game ultimately.
With regard to your "world didn't end" theory, although unethical games don't cause immediate end of the world, unknowingly bad influences on players are still inevitable. Most of the time, players are even unaware of such influences.
The problem is that "good" and "bad" are 100% subjective. A few examples off the top of my head:
Some people believe that the use of violence is bad... but other people believe that not using violence to protect people being threatened is bad.
Some people believe that lying is bad... but other people believe that giving a truthful answer to a question that will hurt someone's feelings is bad.
Some people believe that killing criminals is bad... but other people believe that forcing taxpayers to support prisons is bad.
Some people believe creating fiction with certain content (which varies arbitrarily from person to person) is bad because it corrupts people... but other people believe that censoring creative freedom is bad.
When you say that games shouldn't include "unethical" content, and that it's a "bad influence" on people, you're basically saying that your ideas of what's right and wrong are better than everyone else's, which is why you're getting such negative reactions from the other forum goers. Also, if media were censored to only contain certain content, it would effectively be an attempt to rob the consumers of that media from the freedom of choice to form their own ideas of what's good and bad.
However, regarding one thing is right or wrong, different people may have different opinions, but there will be only one truth.
"Society" didn't have a single set of values at any point in recorded history. Different groups of people have always had different values.
No, regarding right and wrong, there is no truth. It's extremely arrogant to decide that one's own idea of right and wrong is true, and everyone else's are not.
And yet you continue to argue your "suggestions" with other people as if they are the only way things should be done. You cant have it both ways and from your posts I think everyone involved has a pretty good idea of exactly what your trying to acomplish. Unfortunatly, your misguided idealism has left you blind to the truth that social standards such as morals, ethics, and good vs evil as so inconsistent that there is absolutly no one right way. I would highly recommend a little study into history and sociology before you continue any further.
Not in any way about that site specifically, but (speaking about the old days) I would love it if wikis went back to editor and proofreader days of commercial encyclopedia maintained sites. Then again after the collapse of 2008, it cannot economicly be maintained and we just need to note when entries are not confirmed. Again, general wiki comment not directed at the site folks.
And yeah, my end of the world thing was to counter the in-game "do wrong things" slippery slope argument which was more a straw man argument by many. In no way do I suggest something has to cause an apocalypse level thing immediately to confirm this. I just question if gaming violence/questionable actions is the cornerstone of moral decay and more an image of a tool used by people who are both well informed and ignorant of right and wrong. Just like TV.
All that is fine and good until we get to the second reply you left. Sorry, but you can see my name can't let that one slide.
There is not one truth that is guaranteed upon. Most people confuse truth with logic. Quite bluntly "what is truth" is a philosophy. Logic is an agreed upon sub-branch of a philosophy that only proven results (and since the later centuries this almost always is agreed upon in an empirical method using confirmed sensory data only,) count.
People can lie is a philosophy and an agreed upon truth. Everybody does not always lie or always tell the truth and have the ability to be dishonest.
People are mammals based on scientific information presented (and say for this discussion that info is presented here,) is logical. We have scientific proof proving a logical conclusion based upon measured results used for centuries. If it came down to it, we could show data about this that could be answered in yes/no questions.
There is only one truth is answer three or "unknown" and falls out of said logical confines. In no way am I bashing anybody's faith or belief, but I am emphasizing that is what it is.
But again, NW is a game, not anything to do with reality or a teaching tool for said reality, and all this has nothing to do with it, except the invoker perhaps.
Wait, so to find truth and love, I have to take a Beholder's eye?
(runs)
Eye of the Beholder+5
Orb Level 30
Enhancement: +2 Insight and Charisma
Critical: +2d10 damage per plus
Properties:
When a skill check would require you to use Perception or History, use Insight instead.
Power Daily (Standard Action)
You gain a bonus to your attack rolls equal to twice this items enhancement bonus. In addition, when an enemy attacks roll 1d20+ your charisma modifier. If the result is greater than the attackers will, the attack misses and that target is Smitten (save ends).
Smitten: Targets affected by Smitten are unable to attack the object of their affections.
While I can't speak for Asm0deus, you have my vote!
By all means (while technically we missed Valentine's Day,) submit it to Wizards and/or Cryptic for NW!
Again, great work!
Evil and good is based on intension behind doing something, not the act imo. But choices are always good.
2. Please do not introduce unethical quest contents
Technically, that was justifiable self-defense. And it would restrict choices, let players decide what they want. In a lot of games, you can blow up whole villages (Fable, Black and White). These quests were nothing in comparison. That action was more of a chaotic neutral than evil. ALSO - evil is just from human perspective. Demons are just aliens trying to conquer world. So they are using "Evil" ways to do it.
But I do agree that these quests should be optional - like be evil if you like evil or good if you want to be good. And maybe this will be affected by alignment which you are under.
[evil cleric or a good demon would be nice to play]
p.s. {And it teaches not to prejudice GOOD by beliefs or appearance}
3. Meaningless slaughter and sabotage is harmful to players' mind development
Most games today stop your progression if you kill some important NPC.
I would also like that missions in which you get much better rewards to not kill anyone.
But orcs don't exist in reality, so please dont worry
4. Make monsters and foes appear at random spots
Yes, that would be nice
I see myself running few first quests a lot to find a good character for myself
5. Recycling existing resources is unprofessional
I wouldn't like to have any prejudice before I actually see the game. imo, as long it is enjoyable, it is fine (e.g. goblins we meet first come to fight us later with helmets and armor)
Yes. Such as killing good-aligned beings will reduce the reward or fail the quest. Or to protect the good-aligned and to kill the evil.
In many ways this list shows the weaknesses in DDO, and areas Neverwinter can capitalize on, in order to "steal" more of the DDO playerbase.
Leslie's Top 5 wants in DDO
1. Crowd Control to mean something.
2. Crafting built into the character, selectable at character creation.
3. A real mapping system, including multi level zoom in/out. Think google maps. Sticki notes. Option to save maps or turn them off.
4. Personalized Teleport
5. DRUIDS
Dreams:
6. Player designed - MOD developed events. <--- contests/awards for the best designed event that goes to development.
7. Player-useable dungeon/quest development kit. Create our own quests!
8. Ninja class - mix of fighter, rogue monk.
9. Gnome race - Gnomes are naturally friendly, highly social and fun loving people. They are respected by Elves for their communion with nature and knowledge of arcane magic, admired by Halflings for their humor, and sought out by Dwarves for their gemcutting skills. (masters of illutions) make great bards!
10. Favor to mean something again - just not a big deal anymore: 2,500+ something you cant buy anywhere. 3,000 +3 tome, 3,500+ = extra feat, + 2 supreme tome.
Just wanted to say, #7 is already a reality. We'll get a chance to show you guys some more about The Foundry pretty soon.
Thanks,
Stormshade
I think they said there will be no factions so favor should be out of the question and sounds like your wanting DDO2. I hated the tomes in DDO. They made a lot of stuff trivial to obtain feat wise. Take for isntance dual wielding, my cleric in NWN2 Dalelands Beyond would have to sacrifice quite a bit to the point of severely hampering his spell casting abilities for it while in DDO it was so trivial it was almost automatically given. Factions should be around purely for RP purposes and nothing else. I truely hope that Cryptic veers well away from "twinking" approach to character development.
Keep in mind the setting is during the Spellplauge which magic is a rarity and very scarce and highly unpredictable. Opposite of Eberron where it's magic galore so teleporting should be out of the question.
I think you missreading this list. Unless I failed my reading comprehension check what Andre is saying is that these are things he felt DDO was missing and as such are things that Neverwinter could learn from as possible thigns to add to attract players.
Ohhh....and the spellplague is over btw. Time in the books, which are directly linked to this game, has advance about 150 years since the spellplague. What Neverwinter is set in is the post-spellplague era.
Sorry Saco, you rolled a 1 on reading comp on that one bud.
That was a list given a year ago, to a DDO specific audience. I felt, however, that such a list might prove informative to Neverwinter devs as well as the future playerbase here.
What I'm looking for is someone else's interpretation of the D&D rulebook, which is why I'm personally here. I will put Turbine in charge of my wallet when I'm ready to play Turbine's take on D&D again. I will no doubt be there if and when there's a DDO 2 someday.
I understand your frustrations with DDO, there's no point in debating it. DDO wasn't/isnt for everyone... and I'm hoping that Cryptic can successfully fill in the gaps that Turbine left open. A fresh new take on online D&D adventuring is what I'm looking for.
Oh, Japanese culture seem to be very appealing to you. More classes is good. Yet it's a bit odd to mix different cultures imo. Putting a oriental martial artist class (monk) into a western-styled fantasy game is already strange. I'm not sure how it will feel like to further add Japanese culture into the game. Not that I don't like oriental cultures. (I'm an oriental) It's like putting Harry Potter into a traditional Chinese martial art story. But if developers think it is okay for Neverwinter to have that, I'm okay with it.
This is good, too. More races is fun. And it's interesting to see creatures smaller than halflings running around! I guess gnomes are more suitable for spell caster classes because they might get -2 Strength than other races due to small body.
Unless the devs are busy pulling a willy wonka (licking wallpaper) there should defiantly be oversight, if not have that be the one thing users can't mod, to avoid someone loot HAMSTER a simple dungeon. It would be nice if this wasn't something we had to worry about. It unfortunately it is.
Ummm....you do realize that the setting for neverwinter is part of an entire world and not just a digital representation of the US right???
You analogy of Harry Potter being in a Chinese martial arts film is incorrect. A closer representation would be the rush hour movies with jackie chan and Chris tucker. Both are from the same world but different areas with different cultures and there are areas of Faerun with oriental styled culture iirc.
Honestly, that movie has nothing to do with my point. Let's see another example: Harry Potter being involved in the movie "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon". It is odd, isn't it?
You might wanna look at this (I also quoted the citation in case you wanna ckeck it your self)
The funny part is that if you look at a map Kara-Tur is actually a larger piece of the world than Faerun. So to say that its "99.9% western" is completly inaccurate.
And in case your concerned with how the spellplague and 4e has affected this map from all the research I could gather it doesnt seem much changed with Kara-Tur itself.
I get what your trying to say but the problem is that its not an accurate assesment. By useing that example your implying a merging of two worlds as aposed to two different pieces of the same world meeting which is what is actually happening.
Thats why I used rush hour as an example because it highlights two completly different cultural and social settings interacting with each other in the same world at the same time.
Come on Jendrak, of course its not accurate, but that was some funny sheet right there!