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Proposal: A way to avoid the constant complaining when balance passes are made.
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Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Recently, we have seen many different items and abilities being changed/added, only to be rebalanced after a while on Holodeck.
Currently is works something like this:
I propose to add a testing phase when the change is added to Holodeck:
Basically, make it obvious the ability/item are still in the testingphase, to avoid complaining when nessecary steps are taken. The [Testing] tag could even link directly to a feedback option, so that the player click the tag, and are taken to a report option, similar to bugreports.
Relevant threads could be added to the forums, where discussion could be made.
It would make it easier for the players to report any percieved balance issues, instead of creating the inevitable horde of nerf posts. It would also gather the feedback from recent changes, in a seperate place, for the Developers to sort through.
Currently is works something like this:
- Cryptic changes a skill or add an item on Tribble
- Players test.
- Cryptic adjusts based on feedback.
- Cryptic puts it on Holodeck
- Extensive use (primarily by the PvP population) shows imbalance and a balance pass is requested.
- Many people complain, since they enjoyed the imbalanced addition
I propose to add a testing phase when the change is added to Holodeck:
- Puts on Tribble
- Players Test
- Cryptic Adjusts based on Feedback
- Puts on Holodeck with a tag saying [Testing] after the ability/item name.
- Players Test
- Cryptic adjusts based on Feedback
- If players approve, the [Testing] tag is removed, otherwise goto Step 5
Basically, make it obvious the ability/item are still in the testingphase, to avoid complaining when nessecary steps are taken. The [Testing] tag could even link directly to a feedback option, so that the player click the tag, and are taken to a report option, similar to bugreports.
Relevant threads could be added to the forums, where discussion could be made.
It would make it easier for the players to report any percieved balance issues, instead of creating the inevitable horde of nerf posts. It would also gather the feedback from recent changes, in a seperate place, for the Developers to sort through.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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1. Players complain.
2. Cryptic changes a skill or add an item on Tribble
3. Players complain on the tribble forums.
4. Other players find out about the change and complain on holodeck related forums.
5. Cryptic adjusts based on feedback.
6. People still complain on all of the above forums.
7. Cryptic puts it on Holodeck
8. People continue to complain.
9. Extensive use (primarily by the PvP population) shows it's actually not that bad 80% of the time.
10. Many people complain anyway
11. Somebody has an idea to stop the complaining.
12. Some people complain about that.
13. Everyone else just keeps complaining about FAW.
It's an MMO. People complain. It's kind of part of the whole thing. Like fries at McDonalds or crying kids at DIsney.
Edit for elaboration: Adding the [Testing] tag will only add some spam to the complaint threads, people already try to quell gloom and doom about new powers by saying they're still in testing, to which the complainers generally reply that based on the "development process" for this game, it'll be even worse when it goes live.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~<GM Jahia>
Also part of the whole experience.
Then all the PvP'ers will have nothing to complin about except each other.
Well yeah.. It would identify things clearly, that are potentially changing in the near future.. Instead of people not really paying attention to things, that just happen to pick up an item or ability, only to throw a fit when the "WoW!" item/ability is changed.
It would also gather the relevant feedback, in a specific place for the Devs benefit.
Allready been suggested, but appearantly Devs want the current way to work.
The trollbait part of your post is unwanted, come with serious opinions about the OP or refrain from commenting, thank you.
It was a bit trollish, my apologies for being me... but the subject is more than a bit one-sided as far as I'm concerned.
As for the idea...perhaps it needs to be looked at again...
Also, suggesting that I not make my opinion known, is also againt the rules.
And honestly i am not their Beta Tester anymore, if i use Tribble i use it for a sneak peak at new stuff... not to Bug Test for them (if i stumble upon one and feel like reporting to the auto reply bot's ... i may do that, or post it on the Forum, but i mostly leave the ballance stuff to the players who care, but i am going nuts with screenshots if i see flickering windows on any new Spaceships! ...i swear i gonna rant again if that Oberth Class is released with that blue pixel on it's top! ).
Yet common sense should tell the Dev's what the Players will complain about to be OP.
When i first saw the icon for the Scorpion Fighter i said to myself "yeah, that thing will be nerfed into the ground"... and it was. 3 fighters... yeah grate after the first Warbird explodes the shockwaves kills usually 3 of 5... *meh*
The best example of usual behaviour in an MMO is the following:
DC Universe Online, the first big patch arrived after a Month, they added PvP Maps, New Missions, reballanced some Skills, new Raid stuff.... all a player could truely want from any MMO.
But in the Forum 100 (or so) Threads popped up and they all went: "why did you change my walking animation IT SUUUUX!!!!111eleveleleven".
Because they *fixed* the comical and seductive walking stances to "how it was intended"... which was reversed in the beginning, so everybody who tested it and used the one he LIKED now had a diffrent one.
(disclaimer: i don't know if they ever fixed that back, i quit DCUO after my first 30 days, having 2 Chars at Endgame and beeing stuck with OP Endgame group content only, not able to find anybody to play it with and not realy caring that much and wanting to play more STO again anyway ;P )
Then "they" will complain about not having those new shiny Items.
Then why bother with PvE at all.
After all, according to several determined folks on the other side, it seems that PvE players shouldn't have much of a say in anything, except clothing choices and which pet's we can collect.
And I am Not being Trollish this time, that is exactly how I have come to feel lately while trying to have fun playing this game.
Ahh, but I didnt.. I merely asked you to post serious opinions, instead of trollbaiting.
OT.
It might work, it might not.. Its worth a shot.. Everyone can instantly see when they pick up a item or ability, that its recently added/changed and might change again in the near future.
Adding a specific "Holodeck Testing" type subforum somewhere could gather all the forum discussion in one place.. The "Create Thread" option could be disabled by players, but comments possible, to keep it clean.
Then any post in any other place could simply be locked or deleted, to avoid the clutter about the same subject in 10 different parts of the forums.
Naturally there would be a significant amount of flame potential in the new forum, which is why it should be policed intensively, but rather that than 10 posts in 5 different forums filled with E-rage and flaming.
You suggested that I not express myself... if ya want to play with samantics, I too can make "suggestions".
That's just it..., they will still be able to get the shiny new items.... just not for PvP.
They always complain that the Dev's add stuff to the game that ruins Their fun...
What about the fun the rest of us want to have with the shiny new items.
Why should our fun factor be dulled down to accommodate them?????
The only way for both sides to enjoy the game fully, is to treat them as seperate entities.
(my apologies...in my fervor I double posted...)
The problem is:
Regardless of the power of any given item or ability, its quite possible to complete any PvE content.. For most of the content you dont even have to bother using abilities.. For the few missions where you *do* need to use your abilities, its not nessecary to actually spec into them..
Ive done all of the STFs, with all three classes, without a single point spent in a ground skill.. STFs doesnt require skill per se, but it does require teamwork.
However in PvP, the abilities and items are used much more intensively.. Not by a single player not speccing into an ability, but rather by a team of five players that use it in concert.
To take two recent examples:
FAW: is fine in PvE, and its fine when one person in PvP uses it.. But when five players use it, it effectively amounts to the equivalent of 4-5 ships shooting on *each* of the opponents ships. It effectively triples, quadrubles or ... 5 doubles the offensive potential of the team. 5 ships do the same amount of damage as 25 ships. See the problem?
TBM: was fine in PvE, and it was fine when one person used one launcher in PvP, but when a team of five each carries 2 TBM launchers, and dispersal patterns, each launcing 8+ mines every 10-15 sec, the area gets filled with 100s of cloaked mines, that can hold you indefinately.. Imagine if the latest spacefights in the Romular Featured Episodes *all* had the Romulan ships maintain a field of 100+ of those mines at all times. Now add constant scramble and holds by Gravity wells.. You are basically stuck in place from the instant combat starts.
---
Anyways, this post isnt about how us PvPers are cheating PvE players of their fun.. Seperating the things isnt a option, since the Devs said they wanted to fully explore the current option.
makes it even worse, they can see / have them but not use them how they want...
this again would make 50% of the playerbase happy and the other 50% would complain.
And the PvE Players that *occasionally* play PvP, but are not build / set up for it ?
that only makes the PvE Player even weaker in PvP and you create a whole new level of imballance.
These Players then might even avoid PvP because they have to switch out items and do stuff before joining a PvP Match....
-> common sense, this would fail... horribly
That may be true for NORMAL Play... But try getting the same results in Advanced or Elite...
Not all circumstances or players fit neatly in your ideas and/or style of play.
I just don't believe this game should be balanced for one particular aspect of game play. (i.e. PvP)
It not fair to the folks who don't do PvP.
Again I ask, why should PvE play be dumbed-down, besides making PvP players happy???
I'm sorry but I disagree with your stats, I highly doubt that the split between PvP and PvE is 50/50.
From what I've seen and heard in game, the PvE population is much larger.
I'm going to adjust my thinking here a bit...
... perhaps it would be wiser to create shiny new items for both sides...
But make them so that they can't be cross-used between the two groups.
It may add some difficulties for the Dev's, but it would be the only Fair way to keep both sides happy.
It shouldn't pve players have just as much right to play this game as the pvpers, I truly feel the only way to make all the pvpers happy is give them all one ship the same weapons and gear and the same skills then they will have nothing to complain about but them self's other than that YOU WILL always find someone complaining about someones oped skill. also this whole if a 5 man team uses it its oped !!! Well news flash for ya its that way with any skill.
1. Cryptic changes a skill or add an item on Tribble
2. Players test.
3. Cryptic adjusts based on feedback.
4. Cryptic puts the adjusted skill/add/item on Tribble
5. Repeat steps 2-4 as necessary
6. Cryptic places skill/add/item now balanced as best as possible on Holodeck
And with this i'm not trying to be funny, we just know it's going to happy
7. People who did not participate in tribble testing will complain.
As it is Cryptic basicly does a very short "here's something to test" pass and once it's been tested for a week, for better or worse, if its fixed or not, it's pushed to holodeck. This leads to many of the imbalances, the tractor mines, the mine spam, the carrier nerfs. If they did extended tribble testing, things would likely come out on holodeck more balanced, people will of course still complain, but by that point the complaints will really just be by those who enjoyed the imbalance, or didn't participate in testing.
Oh how true you are, Half of the complainers didn't even look at it when it was on trib.
The one major problem with this is that it still "Dumbs-Down" PvE Play, because it's going to pretty much be the PvP players that are going to want to 'adjust' that new item.
I *do* play exclusively on elite setting.. I still tear through regular PvE content with ease.
Lets face it, things that are irrelevant for PvE play have a huge impact on PvP.. That D'deridex doesnt complain about being held in place for 30+ seconds while you sit stationary and blasts away on its side shield with impunity, until it blows up.
PvE *is* dumped down, the enemy ships always have the same skills, they always follow the same tactics..
When you run into a Breen cruiser, you know it will always have SNB, it will always use a TSS3 on you, and it will always use a drain.. So... The player naturally approaches it from the rear, and keep a EP2S or ETeam ready for the TSS..
The smock race cruiser will always use a metaphasic shield when it enters combat, so the player knows not to fire off all their offensive buffs at the start of combat.. (or they are Sci captains and have a SNB)
The Galor/Fed SV/Smock race SV will always activate FBP when they enter combat.. So the clever escort captain knows to hold their buffs and only use the rear turrets (or simply enter combat, then move to 10.5k range)
The Borg Cube will shoot shield neutralizers at you, so the clever captain knows not to rely mainly on shield abilities.. (and be prepared to shoot down HY Plasmas)
The Breen Frigates always travel in 3s, and they will drop a tractor on you if you enter range for that.. Well.. Its not too hard to remain 5+ away from them, is it?
i'm not sure you understand the tribble servers purpose. but there will always be balance issuse, just being told it's still a test item wont calm anyone down, and it just looks lazy.
It serves three purposes
1: To clearly identify new changes/additions, that will potentially change a short while after (which *will* happen regardless)
2: To streamline the whole "Nerf the new XYZ - Its OPd" process, by providing intuitive ways of discussing it.
3: To get rid of all those nerf/flame/complain/QQ posts on the boards, and gather them in one place.
The [Testing] idea isn't horrible. How is it decided that the tag is warranted?
Ya know... as I attempted to point out, not every player plays the game with a PvP Mentality.
Nor do most players 'over analyze' every move that the NPC's make.
How You play the game is not how Others play the game.
My question still stands... why should PvE players have to play a "Dumbed-down" version of the game to make you happy??
It seems after 2 weeks on Tribble, stuff gets released to Holodeck, no matter what, basically. Maybe it gets a tweak, but we don't know how it will be tweaked until it's on Tribble. When the B'Rel Retrofit was released, some people (including me) voiced the concern of abusing it a san invisible invulnerable healer. It was a concern, there wasn't enough experience with it to really tell how bad or good it would be. The ship got tweaked, and now finds itself nerfed to oblivion. Even the most vocal complainers about the original B'Rel would probably have seen that the nerf was excessive -just one extra day on Tribble could have been enough to get that feedback. But now, months later, we are still stuck with a broken B'Rel.
I don't know if we need a [Testing] tag. I don't know if we can get more time on Tribble. But I know the release process/cycle is too short to gather the necessary feedback on changes, and if something is broken on release to Holodeck, there seems to be no time scheduled to address such issues. It takes weeks or months to fix it because other stuff is now working.
This process has to change. Mel's idea is one possible way to do it. I don't know if it's feasible for Cryptic to do it that way. But I know something has to be done.
There needs to be a one or two week "observation" phase after a release. And if Tribble feedback leads to tweaks, they should not go to Holodeck first. They need to be released on Tribble first. Or if such tweaks are applied and released "untested" (they aren't really untested, I presume, but not community-tested on Tribble) to Holodeck, there must be an announcement that the item/change is still under observation and that further changes are possible - and the development time must be set aside for it.
And my answer remains the same..
They *are* playing a "dumped-down" version of the game.
When the majority of the PvE content can be completed by the majority of players, without any challenge whatsoever.. It isnt rocket science to realize that each type of enemy reacts in the exact same way every time.. Its not particulary hard to figure out what to do and what not to do.
The only players that *might* struggle with some enemies, are the ones that they are completely new at fighting said enemies.
I think the release cycle should be 1-2 weeks on Tribble and 1-2 weeks on Holodeck. The feedback in the first week decides whether there needs to be 2nd week where changes are applied. I am assuming that Cryptic is capable of coming up with appropriate changes within 1 week and doesn't release stuff that is too broken to be fixed in such a short time frame. I don't think we really have had such broken items that they were impossible to fix in such a time frame as long s the dev team has set aside the time for it at all. After all, there is QA going on before something even hits Tribble. And if you look at the changes to TBM or Scorpion Pets, they didn't require revolutionary new concepts and were done quickly - the problem was getting the feedback to Cryptic and having Cryptic being able to schedule the changes - that did take most of the time. With a 2 week post-release observation/testing phase, the biggest problem would be addressed already.
The second problem is cryptic are not always the most attetive to such feedback from test servers, there have been a number if issues go live to be 'fixed later' or due to 'tech limitations'- seriously, if things don't work, don't put them live. We'd all rather wait than have a broken or out and put faulty item on holodeck. Foundry was a fantastic example of QA being done right. Bugs were squashed primarily before launch, sure there's some there but it's still openly a beta.
I think the best answer for these balance passes is unless something is URGENT, collect the changes together into a bundle and advertise a Tribble test weekend to get people in to properly test thing out, we all know the lure of a special tribble, a pet shuttle, or even just a simple title will lure people to come and play things and try to break them. Then take the feedback and use it before pushing live, ask to test again in needs be.
A well tested balance pass every 3/4 months to tune the meta game has to be better than occasional one off power changes. You can't hang oe thing and not expect a butterfly effect to take place. We all know there's flavour of the month fleets out there who will chop and change, milk whatever the 'uber build' of the week is - that'll always happen,but this might make the flavour less distinctive.
Dumbed down? PvE? If Cryptic gave us a decent AI for PvE that actually used abilities instead of relying on stupidly high hull/shield hitpoints, PvE would be much more challenging and the balance gap between PvE and PvP much smaller. It is possible to create games with an AI that doesn't require "cheating" in the form of higher stats to be competitive, just look at sports games for examples.