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Kithomer Accord Feedback + did Donatra just say JESUS met a Borg?
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Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
So...
i did Kithomer Accord for the first time yesterday in a PUG.
it took 5 friggen hours, we had to warp out to Gamma Orionis 3 times thx to bugs when a player was left behind after a Mapchange (!!!) and a disconnect of 3 players at the same time when entered the ungerground base behind that rock-hologram.
Lets just say now i know why i avoided the STF's for a year now.
but i think the worst of it was the use of the character of Donatra, first she is a completely broken Borg (so broken i am wondering why the collective has not shut her down allready), she can't speak one clear sentence... and in all that mumbling (all text of course) she dropped a 100% immersion braking line:
"We are Legion. We are Borg"
WTF? wait a second!!!
i never did read the Bible, i only know that line because there was a Song from HammerFall - "Legion" and i researched WTF that Song was about, because the text reminded me of the Borg somehow... the very basic idea only... there is no connection whatsoever )
...sooooo
the next Episode better is a Timetravel Episode where we save Jesus from the Borg [/sarcasm] (Cryptic has allready made that connection, now they can aswell go with it)
or [serious now] give Donatra *of Borg* proper Text that befits a BORG ...and a reason to do what she is doing (as in fighting us)
...and remove that "We are legion" line of text -> no Borg ever said that in the Shows therefore this connection with stuff from the Bible is NOT CANON! and in any way inapropriate.
In addition to that Donatra is Romulan, how are the chances that she did read the Bible?
If at all she would use a Romulan reference, not a Human one.
Anyway i think it sucks that you made Donatra into a random Borg Endboss, much waisted potential for the Romulan Faction.
Also her Ship?
Why is it a Reman Scimitar, why not the Valdore she was commanding in Nemesis?
I know there is a model of a assimilated Valdore Class Warbird, i have a Trophy of one!
Anyway i got my Borg Set complete now, i even got that hidden KA Borg BOff now and i will NEVER play that mission again... not on that char anyway, still have 6 who did not do it... maybe in a year or so ;P
sry for my random scrambled thoughts...
my point was realy about that "We are Legion"-line of text.
i did Kithomer Accord for the first time yesterday in a PUG.
it took 5 friggen hours, we had to warp out to Gamma Orionis 3 times thx to bugs when a player was left behind after a Mapchange (!!!) and a disconnect of 3 players at the same time when entered the ungerground base behind that rock-hologram.
Lets just say now i know why i avoided the STF's for a year now.
but i think the worst of it was the use of the character of Donatra, first she is a completely broken Borg (so broken i am wondering why the collective has not shut her down allready), she can't speak one clear sentence... and in all that mumbling (all text of course) she dropped a 100% immersion braking line:
"We are Legion. We are Borg"
WTF? wait a second!!!
In the Bible
The Gospel of Mark, 5:9, describes the following in the country of the Gadarenes:
And He (Jesus) asked him (the man), "What is thy name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion: for we are many.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_%28demon%29
i never did read the Bible, i only know that line because there was a Song from HammerFall - "Legion" and i researched WTF that Song was about, because the text reminded me of the Borg somehow... the very basic idea only... there is no connection whatsoever )
...sooooo
the next Episode better is a Timetravel Episode where we save Jesus from the Borg [/sarcasm] (Cryptic has allready made that connection, now they can aswell go with it)
or [serious now] give Donatra *of Borg* proper Text that befits a BORG ...and a reason to do what she is doing (as in fighting us)
...and remove that "We are legion" line of text -> no Borg ever said that in the Shows therefore this connection with stuff from the Bible is NOT CANON! and in any way inapropriate.
In addition to that Donatra is Romulan, how are the chances that she did read the Bible?
If at all she would use a Romulan reference, not a Human one.
Anyway i think it sucks that you made Donatra into a random Borg Endboss, much waisted potential for the Romulan Faction.
Also her Ship?
Why is it a Reman Scimitar, why not the Valdore she was commanding in Nemesis?
I know there is a model of a assimilated Valdore Class Warbird, i have a Trophy of one!
Anyway i got my Borg Set complete now, i even got that hidden KA Borg BOff now and i will NEVER play that mission again... not on that char anyway, still have 6 who did not do it... maybe in a year or so ;P
sry for my random scrambled thoughts...
my point was realy about that "We are Legion"-line of text.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
I think you're reading WAY too much into a single line of dialogue.
Seriously, it's not important enough to be bewildered about. You may want to stop for a moment and rethink what kind of things should be upsetting you.
The 'map bugs' are not specific to STF's, disconnects are a latency issue that affects any area of the game.
The Scimitar Class is also not a Reman ship but a Romulan ship. It's a fairly common Romulan enemy in their area of space. Some missions have it, and you can easily find them wandering around deep space engagements.
All I can really say is you do know that Star Trek has had heavy references (and flat out statements) of many religions from the very beginning... It isn't even inherent of Star Trek but basically all science fiction. From modern things like Stargate, classics like Star Trek, or even vintage stories like Frankenstein. It can go as far back as Talos from Greek mythology. This really shouldn't surprise you.
that's what Star Trek Nerds like me do ;P
Im not *upset*, i am disapointed by the bad Storytelling... and confused why we have a biblical reference from a Romulan/Borg.
Donatra was just badly written as a villain and this one line is the honey on top of it that made me say DO NOT LIKE.
it's immersion breaking
it's disrespectful to Star Trek Canon (such a connection has neve been made and makes no sense whatsoever),
it's disrespectful to the Bible to connect *anything* from there to BORG
i am not a fanatic, i am not angry, that is just how i see it and i think this should be edited out because it is inapropriate.
//
"If you pay attention to the story you'll notice that she is fighting against the Borg"
yeah i noticed that, but there is not much reason why she would do so and it leads to nothing, she will still shoot the bazinga out of us.
...and yes the Scimitar is of Reman Design. OK in STO the Remans and Romulans all have the same ships, only diffrence is the color of the texture (do NOT like -> this is Reman Ship Design: 1 2 3 -> "The Reman warbird Scimitar" )
but thats a lost battle allready, i just find it cheap design to put a blue skin on a Romulan Warbid and say it's a Reman Warbird now, because it's blue.
(seriously, they have one canon race where they can go wild with it... and go the easy route... *meh* )
but i don't want to derail the thread with this, i know that won't change anytime soon. I just hope they give this a second thought when they make the Romulan Faction.
I still think you're making it into something it isn't. Star Trek, just like absolutely any other work of modern (1940+) science fiction has countless references in it.
Rachel Garrett, Captain of the NCC-1701-C: The debris which killed her was a piece of a VF-1 model kit wing from Super Dimensional Fortress Macross
Akira Class: This class of ship was named after the Japanese movie Akira
Wrath of Khan: Khan paraphrases Melville, Shakespeare, and some others.
The Next Generation episode 'The Inner Light': This episode is named for a Beatles song.
Data: This character is heavily based upon Questor from The Questor Tapes.
The list goes on. As you can see there are many references in Star Trek that range from influences, jokes, homages, and yes sometimes even religion. There's a fair number of Star Trek episodes that deal with religion such as when they encounter Apollo or come to a planet where a Jesus Christ is instigating change on that world. Then you have The Final Frontier, and some Next Generation episodes that also deal with the subject and Deep Space 9 which focuses heavily upon it.
Not much reason? If you were forced to lose control of your own body and mind you have all the reason in the world to resist. Becoming Borg is not a thing one does willingly; it's enslavement.
I also never said the Scimitar was designed by anyone or another; the Remans were always part of the Romulan Star Empire and largely continue to be so even with the Iconian return. If a Chinese man was born in... let's say Canada and invented something living there then this would be a Canadian invention. Remus, like Romulus, was part of the Romulan Star Empire and so too was its populace. Thus the Romulans use the Scimitar.
Remans were oppressed by the empire, as far as we know they had no access to technology and did nothing outside of menial slave labour. The Remans were part of the empire, and so the only technology they have is that of the empire. This is a civil war, so of course they're going to be using the same technologies. It wouldn't make sense for them to magically have developed uniquely since they were part of a larger community.
The issue of colour really isn't an issue. The Remans are effectively rebelling and will use anything made available to them to do so regardless of origin. They will paint them in their colours because it represents them. Look at any civil war in history and the same is true. This isn't solely to be said of civil wars either. The Reman resistance is a military body and is to be distinguished as such. In WWII many countries shared (or captured) the same kinds of aircraft and basically the only difference was that they repainted it. You don't reject perfectly usable equipment because it wasn't produced by your body of power.
i say this one makes no sense, the Borg are not "Legion"
the line is out of any context, it is no homage or reference, it is Donatra stating that the Borg are Legion from the Bible -> creating a connection between a mechanical race and Demons from Earth's Religion, a connection that just doesnt exist.
Khan quoting Shakespeare? I suppose that makes sense, he is from Earth after all.
The Klingons in ST6 quoting Shakespear? ....i ...suppose that... could make sense, they have access to our Databases 'n stuff... and... they are on a mission to meat Earther's... so... uhm... they could have read up on us?
...whatever TOS and TMP was full with this stuff, i still don't get why we never heard anything about Heavy Metal or Hip Hop in Trek at all, but allways this classical *well educated people* ...Stuff.
ask yourself what kind of musical instruments you've seen in Trek, there was everything but no E-Guitar or Bass, no Drums... only Clarinettes and Flutes and Piano's...
oh... yeah, there was this guy in ST4 on the Bus who played Punk music (or something), that got a nervepinch from Spock.
(am i the only one seeing the bias here? wouldn't they have new music in the future? maybe ALIEN music?... Klingon... Operette... oooh... come on Klingons would listen to Heavy Metal! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYJjtwkiiTY or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRZROp3xVSI
1. Picard did resist and he couldn't do s*** about it. Why would Donatra be mentally stronger?
2. I meant no reason for her to resist in terms of storytelling, it is irrelevant if she resists or if she is fully assimilated, it does not matter to the story, there is no trigger for it, there is no goal, just the fact that she does.
OK... they hinted at the end that she might have escaped, so maybe when Cryptic pulls her out again she will break the connection and be Donatra again, a liberated Borg, much like Hakeev maybe?
But for this Mission it only delivered badly written text and a baddy that seems to have more trouble with himself then with me.
Like something as old as this, and with the nature of evolving languages, there are several translations from the biblical meaning. They don't all come out to the same thing. Regardless of this, the Borg are a legion and are also a hivemind; a number of individuals controlled by a central mind or will (the queen) and thus they are legion. The contextual use is accurate.
There's also a wide variety of music we see in Star Trek. Cochrane listens to classic rock (such as Three Dog Night), then we have any number of Klingon songs from Deep Space 9 or even Uhura singing her own music. There are a lot of references to (and clips of) supposed music from alien races throughout The Next Generation, particularly when they have some kind of formal event such as those involving representatives from other worlds. There is a variety but classic rock, among others, are not commonly heard in Star Trek, no.
You can attribute this to the Eugenics Wars which basically resulted in the destruction of most technology, records, and culture on Earth. They constantly say that information from this time period, and from before, is lost. Outside of that you can just assume that what there is, isn't very popular. The feel of cultural stagnation is something that has always bothered me (beyond the original series) in this franchise but it's about looking forward, not back.
That doesn't mean anything. Like I originally said, we see many resist to varying degrees of success. Some people have more will than others; my great grandfather used to pull wagons and carts on his own when the horses were too tired, my grandfather would have his broken bones set without any painkillers used and didn't even shed a tear. Would I want to experience these things? No, not at all. Everyone is different, even if they have familial connections.
There is also plenty of reason for her to resist within the story. She is being enslaved and does not want to be. She does not want to serve the Borg, she does not want to fight the Federation (or presumably others). The Borg are her enemy and she is being forced to serve them. The whole mission is loaded with bits of story but most groups rush through and don't bother to read them. She is struggling against everything and trying to sacrifice herself to save people she doesn't even know. From the viewers perspective this is a massive show of character strength and depth.
It isn't very unlike Lon Suder who struggled to maintain his control and will and ultimately gave everything to save a crew he didn't know well and largely didn't even like being that he was not part of Starfleet.
jesus in fact was alone when he said it. the borg IN FACT are many ^^ so nice joke!
Roman "legions" existed for centuries before anything you mentioned could've happened.
The word has been used frequently to denote masses of entities working as a single unit (due to the effectiveness of Roman legionnaires).
No one is talking about any religion. What we have been talking about is that religion is used and referenced many times within Star Trek. The discussion is about a particular character within a particular mission that makes a possible reference in similar fashion.
As for the rest of your post, I'm not even sure what you're referring to.
does not apply, nobody is talking about pro or anti religion here...
also your forum rule is outdated:
-> http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=128&a=5
That is the only part were "Religion" is even mentioned and my thread clearly does not apply as "Hate Speech".
for the bugs:
- we had 4 disconnects on one map move (everybody but me was booted), after the reconnect 3 made it to the ground map and 2 were stuck in the previous space map, we all had to warp out to Gamma Orionis, regroup and enter the Mission again, then we all were thrown back the whole space part before beaming down.
- second time, before warping to Donatra, i clicked away a text popup by accident (i was redistirbuting my shields, that allways closes any text popup) and the text popup was not minimized but GONE, all others warped away to the next stage and i was stuck in this one, it took about 15 minutes until they finally noticed the chat and that i was stuck, so again we all had to warp out and do the last part again.
another odd thing, while i was stuck and they warped to the next stage that was all on the same map, but they were 200k DOWN, i have seen them on the minimap and tried flying down with full impuls (<3 45° angle) but hit an invisible wall at 100k distance.
These 2 bugs alone made it last an hour longer then needed, the other 4 hours was getting TRIBBLE by Borg Elite Drones, respawning half a mile away at the start of the map and going to youtube to find out how that puzzle 3 hours in worked.
I was truly impressed that nobody left the game, 5 hours is a LOT for a PUG.
That mission realy could have been a two or three parter and still would have been exhausting.
Everybody on the team said that this was the first and last time they did this, so yeah i get why People don't like these STF's very much
STF are not too much hard.
If you in team where one player know what to do,only follow his orders ,missions has to be done relative easy & quickly.
If you are in noob team,keep patience,learning in walk,..you ll spend few hours to finish.
Only terradome is buged,but it is STF which can done using rambo tactics without brain.Yes,,it is buged mission but can be done.
I cant understand crybabies players when talking about STF,nwm if you are in pug group or fleet, they requesting only advanced team work.
No, it really isn't. Disconnects (as I'm sure you've noticed) are a latency issue that affects any part of the game. The matter of being unable to warp with the rest of the party is also a known bug which you can experience in any mission while partied if you close some text windows. All you have to do is leave and re-enter the instance.
Aside from that, there are very few bugs in the Special Task Force missions. Terradome, however, has always had some serious issues going on with it and I believe it is still wonky though you don't get anything special for completing it anyway. Terradome has been buggy basically a couple days after it came out (which was quite a while ago). I'm not aware of many fixes for it since.
At any rate, if you ever want to do them (or anything else) feel free to ask me (Ezhno@Ezhno). I've done them all, and none of them are very hard; just time consuming. Infected is about an hour in length, Cure is about one hour to two, Khitomer Accord is about... four or five hours.
You mean "controversy". The OP is... well, seeing things that aren't there. It's a very common phrase, both in the genre and outside of it!
"We are legion. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world. We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."
- Sovereign, Mass Effect
you make it sound so easy,
warp out and back in /done
yeah, if it just was that easy, you warp out and back in to the exact same place you were, your whole team has to warp out and do the last part again if one man gets stuck behind.
"known bug"... i'd rather would hear "fixed bug" ;P
latency issues? you tellin me that 4 people just... *lagged out* in the very same map change? And they had no other ping issues in 5 hours at all? ...naaah.
If THAT was an latency issue it was one the Server had. But the problem realy was that the server threw the players in diffrent places after so we all could redo that last part...
In an MMO, in a group mission i expect the Server to keep the progress synced for all the Team Members, not for every single one seperately. I mean it works for the Fleetactions, DSE's and Warzones that way, why not for STF's?
...ooooh ...yeah... right ...there it was too!
yet... in diffrent context.
"Sovereign" controls / doctrinates / reads minds, he used words that the low lifeforms beneath him could understand. The Borg have no reason to say anything else then "We are Borg", everybody in the known Galaxy knows what that means and if not, they will learn it the hard way. "We are Legion" is a reference only a Human could understand, and i'm playing an Andorian / Trill / Whatever.
That doesn't make it less inapropriate for the Borg / Donatra / Trek to use a Bible reference as fact.
If the origin of that phrase is something else, then please tell me. Mass Effect isn't it ;P
The Borg allready have their catchphrases and none of them EVER included "We are Legion".
So if you were in a bad group you could just leave after a segment. Or if it was a good group you could keep going. After you completed a segment you could redo the ones before. If you did one part the day before and no one was one your stage you could run the with the group till they got to your point. Then all advance in the STF.
I think you could get many more players in them if it didn't all have to be done at once. Or your progress wasn't lost if you had to leave before it was completed. Most people would have enough time to do a segment, but wouldn't have five hours like the OP's group.
It is an easy fix, you leave and come back in.
And yes, it is a latency issue. It doesn't matter if your personal connection is running OC14 because your connection is not the only thing involved. All your connection does is mean that you can communicate with systems outside of your own network. Latency is a timed delay between two points. Now, if you can vouch for your connection, Cryptics connection, and all of the routing servers inbetween then sure, you can say it isn't latency. But that's what this disconnect is, that's why it says server not responding on loads, because there is a lack of communication that will soon disconnect or time out; this is a latency issue.
This is sort of what was intended with mission save points but they are not more evenly spaced like you suggest. I do think that something like this could be done to improve player availability. I've been on teams where people leave near the end after going through so much to get there and we couldn't possibly get anyone else to take their place because they wouldn't get credit since they are not the exact spot we are so we just finish alone; which can be difficult. Finished Khitomer Accord with three and Terradome with four.
Jesus came across a man who was possessed by demons. When he spoke to the demons the strongest told jesus " we are legion" shortly there after jesus took care of the situation.
On another note. Did the Borg ever assimilate a human? And did this human have knowledge of the Bible?
Yeah, disconnects happen, the problem isn't the disconnect by itself, but how the game handles it.
Warping out and back in does not put YOU, who got stuck, back in the right place.
All 5 Players have to warp out, first you have to make it clear to the other players (it took me 15 minutes until they even watched at the chat and noticed i had a problem, so much for "easy fix"!)
and the whole group looses progress up to 45 minutes if lucky if ONE guy get's stuck on the last map, because that last map has to be done from the start again.
That ain't fun. You can work arround it without GM Help (as if there were any) but you will Facepalm HARD.
It is still an easily resolved issue. If certain players don't look at the in-game chat then that is their personal problem and has no bearing on the issue difficulty. All that really means is that there is a serious lack of attention and team work. It's like if someone at an artillery unit turns their radio off and there's an enemy position in front of you stopping you from progressing. Well, that's easy to resolve; you mark the position and then you radio the artillery unit to fire on it but if their radio is off then it's their fault and their responsibility for what happens. It doesn't make it any more difficult to mark the position, it just means that someone is either being stubborn or failing to support their 'side'
Personally, I think you are experiencing misdirected frustration. That isn't entirely uncommon with MMORPGs
...for sure!
but take the following situation:
A Romulan/Borg is talking to an Andorian Vice Admiral and says "We are Legion".
Why would the Borg Hive Mind expect that either the Romulan or the Andorian understand the meaning of the Words?
It probably would only confuse them both.
lets just agree that it is an issue and should be fixed OK?
The usage in the Bible is due to the style of speech used in that time period (a period of Roman rule). During that period, the largest unit of Roman Military was referred to as a "Legion". The equivalent statement in modern speech would be along the lines of "We are Division" or "We are Brigade". That might sound weird, but that's the gist of what the posessed man was saying.
It's very likely that a Romulan would directly understand the "Legion" reference, since Romulans are based on Roman culture (Note the parallels in their military with "Centurion" and other military ranks and cultural references). An Andorian would likely hear a similar reference, but using a different word.
:eek: Oh OMG, Lazarus was in the Bible, Kirk met Lazarus, Kirk was therefore in the Bible...Kirk was with slaves waiting for the coming of the Son, so he was there for the Resurrection... Give it a rest.:rolleyes: The Borg assimilated a thesaurus and learned a new word is all that happened.
/\This and some things other posters have said.
While I'm not going to defend the level of 'quality' in any of the STFs, good frikkin grief. The whole 'we are legion' thing has been used in pop-culture and general metaphor contexts for a long bloody time.
Plus, most races are heavily dependant on uni translators, so Donatras lines were most likely given in Romulan, and translated to the closest metaphor of the recieving crew..
Ofcourse the player doesnt understand Ferengi, Vulcan, Romulan or whatever, so its translated to English for the players benefit
It is scary, that you would walk up to people and say "We are Borg"
I'm in a student government, and everyone just loves to shut down debate. So when they do that I say "We are Borg" and "Resistance is futile"
I hate debate shut downs.