My (admittedly limited) PvP experience in STO:
As Fed:
Appear in the zone. Total silence in chat. One person heads off into the zone. Follow. OMFG HUGE RED SHIPS EVERYWHERE [Respawn button]
Respawn. Spawn point has two players apparently AFK. Nobody responding to team invites. Radar is filled with a huge red blob moving from capture point to capture point.
Head a few times to capture points. Die almost instantaneously each time. Become convinced that there are 12389080983 players on the Klingon side, and they all personally hate me. Map finally runs out of time, mercifully ending my suffering.
That's one take. An alternative take is to get these people to talk and work together and show the Klingons how it's done.
Of course, getting some of these AFKers to act is difficult. Probably impossible. But if everyone is just giving up because of them, how is it ever going to get better?
The more people are playing that understand and respect the value of teamwork and that are not in for the meaningless grind of Emblems or Marks, the more likely it is you get a decent group.
One of the biggest reasons to play PvP is because it has the best chance of not being a tedious grindfest. In PvE, you are fighting the same fights over and over again. On easy, victory is quick and easy. On Elite, victory is tedius and slow. There is never really a point where you feel genuinely surprised by what your opponent is doing. You will never have the satisfication of outwitting a clever opponent.
Ok, so you don't like PvP. That's fine, and I genuinely want you (and everyone else) to have fun in the game, whatever form that takes. But your posts seem to go beyond simply stating your dislike of PvP; in my eyes, you seem determined to counter the invitation in every way you can.
And you seem determined to counter every complaint with a meaningless and pithy comeback. Instead of acutally understanding the reasons for the complaints.
You say its fine but you couldn't resist adding your own comments on the meaningfullness of winning or loosing. In the course of this debate, in your efforts to offer counter points.You have implied non-PVPers are soft skinned, in need of improvement of their PVE game via PVP experience, and in my paticular case, damaged by what had to of been by a bad experience. For someone trying to change opinions this is a poor tactic
I'm reacting to the condesending nature of all this. That our perseptions are off or we are misinformed and that with the right come back or arguement we will change and accept PVP. It comes off just a bit arrogant.
But I will give credit where its due. STO has one of the more mature and adult communities I've been apart of. If one wants to experiment with PVP there are few better places. But if folks have aready decided PVP to be distasteful this place will not change that opinion
I pointed out that I, personally, am not obsessed with gearing up, nor am I "driven to compete," yet I do pretty well. Victory is great - but many of my favorite matches have ended in a well-fought defeat.
I'm curious what PVP matches you do and from which side. I'll do FVF for the dailies. I'm definitely no PVP expert but from what I've read Klingon-centric players simply say that "Feds suck" and the few FVK matches I've played would seem to back up that claim. I question whether FVK is actually ever a good fight outside two premade teams facing off? Even in FVF whichever group works together effectively doesn't just win, they completely shut out the other side. 15/0 arena matches and 1200/0 cap n hold matches. That's not a good fight to me no matter which side I'm on.
I usually have zone chat off but occasionally I'll have my all channels tab on and it never seems to fail that before I'll finish my 3 PVP daily missions someone will feel the need to show what ***** they are. Ker'rat is absolutely atrocious for that as well. I'm sure those people are the small minority however it only takes a few run-ins with someone like that to leave a bad taste for PVP.
I tried FVK, and there's simply no point for me to queue up for that. I'm just a "sucky Fed" I guess. I'll do FVF for the dailies and even those are pretty much lopsided battles. Once in a while it'll be a good fight but the irony is a really good fight quits being fun after about 20 minutes of going nowhere. Where are the good fights being fought at? Is KVK where the epic fights are being held because I've never found any in FVF or FVK. I'm not going to queue up for 2 or 3 hours just in the hope that one of the fights is worth it.
I have no doubt some find PVP to be a lot of fun, however from looking at the queues it seems quite a few more are just doing FVF for the dailies. I really don't see what the dev team can do to make PVP more fun as the experience is completely dependent upon the people participating. It's one thing to try and encourage those who have never done it to give it a shot, but the real problem is those who have tried and and no longer want anything to do with PVP. There's a lot more people burned by bad PVP experiences than there are those who have never queued up.
That's one take. An alternative take is to get these people to talk and work together and show the Klingons how it's done.
Of course, getting some of these AFKers to act is difficult. Probably impossible. But if everyone is just giving up because of them, how is it ever going to get better?
The more people are playing that understand and respect the value of teamwork and that are not in for the meaningless grind of Emblems or Marks, the more likely it is you get a decent group.
I can't speak for anyone else, but my problem isn't AFK'ers, it's just being constantly chokeslammed by any and every Klink ship I happen upon. Higher level, lower level, same level - it doesn't matter; my shields are down in 2 seconds, re-spawn time in 3.
Also, I have to jump on the minority bandwagon - I haven't actually seen any AH's around, nor witnessed any trash talking; just 'gg' by the winning team.
I'm curious what PVP matches you do and from which side. .
I do Klingon versus Federation PuG usually at 4pm to 6pm CST USA.
I hardly ever see trash talking and most games are fun and challenging, though there is the occassional one-sided victory - sometimes fed sometimes Klingon.
I can't speak for anyone else, but my problem isn't AFK'ers, it's just being constantly chokeslammed by any and every Klink ship I happen upon. Higher level, lower level, same level - it doesn't matter; my shields are down in 2 seconds, re-spawn time in 3.
Well, this goes beyond the scope of this topic, I think, but some of the core lessons of PvP are:
- The enemy will attack you fully buffed. Ensure that you are already buffed, or buffed up pretty soon after his attack begins. Very important here are all types of shield and hull resistance buffs. (Emergency Power to Shields, Polarize Hull might be the most important, though RSP might currently be the most mportant.)
(It is an unfortunate reality in this game that shields or hull without significant resist buffs don't just last very long.). Cruisers can easily cycle 2 Emergency Power to Shields for good shield resistance.
If you find you can't react fast enough, bu y yourself reaction time with covariant shields and/or [cap] shields.
- Use the Distribute Shield Power often. it strengthens your weakest shield facing. It lets you use all the shield's regeneration (a shield facing at 100 % means shield healing is not applied there. Distribute shield power, and you can use that.)
- Keep moving. Never come to a full stop, unless you need to do it for some maneuver. But certainly never when you're waiting for the opponent to strike. Speed incrases your defense, which reduces the chance to be hit or (failing that) the impact of critical hits. Sometimes the best you can do is just to run away. Also, if you keep moving, it becomes more difficult to keep you in the firing arc, and to focus on one shield facing.
- Stay and work together. Teamwork is crucial. You need someone watching your back, and you need to watch someone's back. Don't hoard your healing (if you got any at all). Figure out who the group targets.
Even the title sounds more like something a drug pusher would say rather then encouragement. When your options for new blood drops to creepy pusher like forum adverts. Its probably safe to hang up the blasters and close the lid on the smoldering PVP corpse inside.
Lol, I was thinking the same thing. Not enough newbies to blow up.
And you seem determined to counter every complaint with a meaningless and pithy comeback. Instead of acutally understanding the reasons for the complaints.
You say its fine but you couldn't resist adding your own comments on the meaningfullness of winning or loosing. In the course of this debate, in your efforts to offer counter points.You have implied non-PVPers are soft skinned, in need of improvement of their PVE game via PVP experience, and in my paticular case, damaged by what had to of been by a bad experience. For someone trying to change opinions this is a poor tactic
I'm reacting to the condesending nature of all this. That our perseptions are off or we are misinformed and that with the right come back or arguement we will change and accept PVP. It comes off just a bit arrogant.
But I will give credit where its due. STO has one of the more mature and adult communities I've been apart of. If one wants to experiment with PVP there are few better places. But if folks have aready decided PVP to be distasteful this place will not change that opinion
This is how most mmo pvper's respond to pve players. I think its a big joke that he says pvp will improve pve.
Here are the things i have noticed after participating to PvP matches in the last month:
- Ships are going down very fast, maybe too fast. It is hard to even start enjoying PvP combat if in less than 3 seconds, your shields and hull get down to 0% and you blow up.
- Which bring us to the problem of having multiple ships targeting one enemy and wiping it out before he can even react. It certainly is a very succesful tactic but it makes for a very boring PvP experience ( on both side id say ).
- Where is the fun when you obviously know that by being 5 vs 1 to fire at enemy you know you'll win for sure and that when you are being fired upon by five enemies you know that resistance is futile. When i realise that everyone is targeting and firing at me, i just give up because it`s hopeless. Having 2 human-played enemy ships stalking you is challenging enough alreadybut when the 5 of them are chasing you, it`s just over the top.
I do not claim to have any solution for this and i acknowledge that ganking tactic is sound and effective. But i also recognize that it makes for a very boring and unchallenging PvP experience.
I do not know what could be done to encourage ships to spread out a little more around and have players engage more into 1 on 1, 2 on 1 dogfights that would make the fun last a little longer.
I think its a big joke that he says pvp will improve pve.
I'm not sure where that was ever said.
All the OP was trying to say is, that you should give PvP a try. That's all, nothing else. It's not a statement that really needs any debate or discussion really. There's no cause here to champion. There are a number of people who keep posting the same old reasons for not trying something... Even though they don't know know what things are really like here.
It's a bit like someone refusing to eat a vegetable because they heard from someone else that several years ago they tried it and hated it.
A lot of people don't like PvP in MMO's and often for a good reason. But those reasons aren't universal and it is possible to have a fun time in PvP. I tried it here and I liked it.
Mostly though I see a lot of people here saying they won't like it, even though they've never actually tried it.
Here are the things i have noticed after participating to PvP matches in the last month:
- Ships are going down very fast, maybe too fast. It is hard to even start enjoying PvP combat if in less than 3 seconds, your shields and hull get down to 0% and you blow up.
- Which bring us to the problem of having multiple ships targeting one enemy and wiping it out before he can even react. It certainly is a very succesful tactic but it makes for a very boring PvP experience ( on both side id say ).
MustrumRidcully's post on the previous page addressed this -- put up resistance buffs.
Your shields can easily be buffed to reduce all damage taken by 75%. This means that even with nor regeneration, and on the frailest of ships it takes over 20k damage to start hitting hull. On my cruiser with covariant capx2 shields it would take over 30k of damage to one facing to hit my hull, assuming that I do nothing else to heal, regenerate, or balance my shields in that time.
If you run EPtS III, or any combination of EPtS I or II with Transfer Shield Strength I or II, you can't be "one-shot". Even 2 or 3 ships together will need to chew on you a while.
If you want the easy mode to survival, run a cruiser with 2 copies of EPtS II or III, and 2 copies of TSS I or II. 2 copies of EPtS can be chained almost perfectly, and the TSS will give you extra strength along with a heal-over-time when you need it. If you ever die in 3 seconds it will be because you forgot to buff yourself.
It's a little harder to tank damage in a science ship, and a lot harder in an escort, but the same lessons learned on a cruiser will apply.
- Where is the fun when you obviously know that by being 5 vs 1 to fire at enemy you know you'll win for sure and that when you are being fired upon by five enemies you know that resistance is futile. When i realise that everyone is targeting and firing at me, i just give up because it`s hopeless. Having 2 human-played enemy ships stalking you is challenging enough alreadybut when the 5 of them are chasing you, it`s just over the top.
I do not claim to have any solution for this and i acknowledge that ganking tactic is sound and effective. But i also recognize that it makes for a very boring and unchallenging PvP experience.
I do not know what could be done to encourage ships to spread out a little more around and have players engage more into 1 on 1, 2 on 1 dogfights that would make the fun last a little longer.
The easy way to avoid focus fire is to always move at top speed, and pop Evasive Maneuvers, Aux to Dampeners, and/or EPtE whenever the other team focusses on you. When you get a sudden burst of speed, one or two enemies will probably follow you, but it's very unlikely that the whole enemy team will all have speed buffs available at the same time.
Another way to break up focus fire is to look for an enemy with no defensive buffs up, and hit him with Beam Overload. That probably won't kill him, but the sudden damage to a shield facing will almost always make the enemy turn a different shield to face you and shift their attention to defense.
A third way to break up focus fire is through various AOE attacks. Minefields, Tyken's Rift, and Gravity Wells all make you opponent focus on defensing themselves rather than killing you, and will often cause them to use speed boosts and scatter.
A forth way to break up focus fire is by slowing or holding your enemy. Tractor Beam, Eject Warp Plasma, Target Engines, and Chroniton Mines all work.
Finally there is RSP. Personally I don't rely on it, but it does protect you against any number of opponents, and even after it gets nerfed it will give you a couple of seconds to get something else started.
All the OP was trying to say is, that you should give PvP a try. That's all, nothing else. It's not a statement that really needs any debate or discussion really. There's no cause here to champion. There are a number of people who keep posting the same old reasons for not trying something... Even though they don't know know what things are really like here.
It's a bit like someone refusing to eat a vegetable because they heard from someone else that several years ago they tried it and hated it.
A lot of people don't like PvP in MMO's and often for a good reason. But those reasons aren't universal and it is possible to have a fun time in PvP. I tried it here and I liked it.
Mostly though I see a lot of people here saying they won't like it, even though they've never actually tried it.
I agree, he never said that, yet I see non-pvp people claiming he did. All I saw was someone inviting others to join and have some fun, but also pointing out that its not a cakewalk either.
Its ok, they can keep playing PVE content which is simply a win/win situation for them, however they will never know how much fun a real space battle is against a human opponent, a real challenge unlike a computer opponent that is willing to let you easily defeat them each and every time.
And you seem determined to counter every complaint with a meaningless and pithy comeback. Instead of acutally understanding the reasons for the complaints.
Sorry you see it that way. I won't take up more of your time.
I'm curious what PVP matches you do and from which side.
I mostly play KDF, and generally do KvF ground in PuGs. I also do some space, but I'll admit I'm not very good at it... I generally don't bother with Ker'rat, mainly because I feel the NPCs are way too tightly packed. If I do a warzone, it's usually Otha.
I'm definitely no PVP expert but from what I've read Klingon-centric players simply say that "Feds suck" and the few FVK matches I've played would seem to back up that claim.
I can't question your experience - I can only say that mine has differed. I don't recall any smack-talk in ground PvP, and of the 3 instances of space smack that I do remember, 2 of those were players berating their own teams for suckage.
Maybe it's different in the dailies. I'm not high enough level yet, so I couldn't say.
I question whether FVK is actually ever a good fight outside two premade teams facing off? Even in FVF whichever group works together effectively doesn't just win, they completely shut out the other side. 15/0 arena matches and 1200/0 cap n hold matches. That's not a good fight to me no matter which side I'm on.
Yep, I've been on both the winning and losing ends in blow-out fights, both in FvK and KvK. Premades are aggravating for a PuGger like myself. However, one thing I have noticed is that Fed PuGs seem to have more potential for synergy than KDF teams. Whether they realize that potential is another matter, of course... but the reason I say this is that if my space PuG gets smoked by a Fed team, I'll occasionally send a /tell to one of the Feds saying, "Good job - premade?" When I've gotten an answer, it's something like "Just been teaming for a couple of matches."
So, yeah, the blow-outs are a bummer - but it's not always premades. And again our experiences differ; the majority of the fights I've been in show something on both sides of the scoreboard.
I have no doubt some find PVP to be a lot of fun, however from looking at the queues it seems quite a few more are just doing FVF for the dailies.
Yeah, that sucks. If dailies work like I think they do, it just seems like a fundamental design flaw that invites all kinds of cr*p.
It's one thing to try and encourage those who have never done it to give it a shot, but the real problem is those who have tried and and no longer want anything to do with PVP. There's a lot more people burned by bad PVP experiences than there are those who have never queued up.
Fair point. If it helps, there are friendly PuGgers out there. We just don't stand out because we don't smack-talk or run in premades.
I tried FVK, and there's simply no point for me to queue up for that. I'm just a "sucky Fed" I guess. I'll do FVF for the dailies and even those are pretty much lopsided battles. Once in a while it'll be a good fight but the irony is a really good fight quits being fun after about 20 minutes of going nowhere. Where are the good fights being fought at? Is KVK where the epic fights are being held because I've never found any in FVF or FVK. I'm not going to queue up for 2 or 3 hours just in the hope that one of the fights is worth it.
Honestly I still like FvK best, from either side. On the Klingon side, we have enough firepower to take down the all-cruiser line-ups that are common on the Fed side. On the Fed side, we face off against mostly light ships, so an all-cruiser line-up has a chance of killing something.
Just because it can't be said enough, the key to winning as a fed against Klingons is to have resistances up *before* they attack. After that, if you aren't the one being focussed on, don't be stingy with your heals.
Philosophically, the reason I play PvE and have generally avoided PvP is part of the same reason that I watch Star Trek on TV and generally avoid watching sports on TV. (That's understated. I never watch sports by choice.) I enjoy an interesting narrative. I enjoy a SciFi setting. I enjoy spending time in a familiar universe, seeing what's happened with characters, settings, species, technologies, and loose-thread-story-arcs I know.
On the other hand, I don't understand the appeal of two teams involved in any sort of repetitive, meaningless competition for points and "glory," the results of which have no bearing on the next bout and, except for an annual summing-up-of-results, even less bearing on the next "season" of the sport. In PvP the non-narrative nature of PvP is significantly worse than in professional sports, as team makeup in pro-sports tends to remain relatively similar over the course of a season, but in PvP I'm teamed with -and playing against- totally different players every time. Sports, and PvP, to me are the polar opposite of what interests me. I see people playing sports, or I hear about PvP, or ... actually give it an honest try, and in no time I'm wondering why I'm wasting my time on something so utterly without meaning.
Mine is a philosophical point of view, not a technical one. It isn't that you could teach me how to "win" at PvP and I'd suddenly find it meaningful. It isn't that I just need to find "a good fleet" and "learn teamwork" and the act of playing PvP will suddenly appeal to me. Maybe MAYBE if my engaging in PvP had some bearing on some MMO-wide narrative, I might be engaged by the chance to influence the narrative - but it couldn't be done like EVE, where the players literally invent the only narrative that exists in the game from whole cloth, or like Tabula Rasa wanted to do it where no matter what players did, the war would last forever. That's just my preference.
* * *
Now to my actual experiences in STO: I've been a lifetime subscriber since closed beta. I played 1 character, casually, for about 6 months before I reached RA -just after they lifted the cap- and still haven't reached VA with that character. I never repeated a repeatable mission, and the only near-PvP thing I did with that character was attempt Ker'rat once or twice while it was still bugged (incompleteable). I don't play on teams, at all, except fleet actions, which I completed once each (CE sucks only because of bad teamwork). I've had a blast, and already feel I've gotten my money's worth from STO/LTS.
Just before the start of the weekly missions, I'd reached Gamma Orionis & the looming STFs (which are nothing-but-hated-on in the forums, and which I felt my never-having-played would mean no one would want me on their team; I wish I could just take my away team), and I decided to start a second character. Re-playing through all the missions (once each) has been just as fun as it was the first time; it's like watching re-runs of a beloved Star Trek TV show. Playing tactical/escort (Caitian) instead of Engineer/Science (alien) makes space combat feel like a totally different game (and ground combat nigh-impossible, so far).
Then the weekly missions started. Fun on my first toon, a bit repetitive on my 2nd (who had just reached LtC), and I kept hearing how the narrative was different for KDF players, and I play for the narrative, so I rolled an Orion. At first, I was frustrated that I was starting at LT6, but without the advantage of all the gear & EC I'd have earned by then if I'd played up to that point. Then I was frustrated because what to do wasn't obvious. On the Fed side, I'm led almost by the nose through a comprehensive narrative path; I always know where to go, what to do, and who to talk to. On the KDF side, I get missions with no location, there are contacts I'm never directed to (just standing around Qo'nos, I guess I was supposed to guess about talking to) who have important information/missions for me, and to someone who had never tried PvP, KDF space is completely full of non-locations I can't go to, which simply pop up a "PvP Queues" window that took me about 2 days of playing and asking questions in chat & on the forums to understand. It isn't explained ANYWHERE IN GAME; I re-read all my missions/communications to try to figure things out, and it's just not there. After about a week and a half, in the same play time I leveled my new Fed to Commander, I managed to get the hang of it & reached Lt10. I wanted to give PvP a fair chance, so I didn't just go grind exploration, I fought it out (mostly with the UI / lack of instruction).
At Lt10 I got a KDF PvE mission chain which didn't make any sense for my Orion to be involved in. Fun, but all the narrative text was written as though I were playing a Klingon. Every time I logged the character on, I would get in 3 PvP queues before doing anything else (having learned this is what I was supposed to do), but I still barely ever got into any PvP. I played through the Breen episodes & found that about 5% of the narrative had been ever-so-slightly shifted for the KDF side. As far as I can tell, the only reason to play KDF is PvP. I'll keep playing my Orion every week, trying the new missions to see if that 5% grows at all, and always adding myself to PvP Queues as soon as I log on, taking the matches whenever they appear, et cetera... So the OP gets their way, in a way, but ... man, it's like having to sit through the Super Bowl when all I wanted was to see the funny commercials.
tl;dr: In the same way I'm more likely to write a book than play a sport in real life, I'm not interested in PvP in STO. (Fed or KDF)
tl;dr: In the same way I'm more likely to write a book than play a sport in real life, I'm not interested in PvP in STO. (Fed or KDF)
You seem to miss understand the point the OP is trying to make I think.
He's not saying you will enjoy PvP if you try it. But rather that people should try it at least once and see if they like it or not. A lot of people seem to avoid PvP because of a bad experience they had in another game, or someone they knew had in a different game.
But if you try PvP here, you may just find you like it... Or you may not in which case the worst thing that would happen is you wasted a little bit of time.
I can't speak for anyone else, but my problem isn't AFK'ers, it's just being constantly chokeslammed by any and every Klink ship I happen upon.
Played it, but has issues.
The general theme here is not that folks here are refusing PVP like kids who wont eat their veggies. But folks who have tried it, and even tried it here, and have issues or problems with it. Alot of the resentment here is because of ignorance like this. "They dont like PVP therefore they must not of tried it". When clearly most of their complaints indicate that they have.
Its ok, they can keep playing PVE content which is simply a win/win situation for them, however they will never know how much fun a real space battle is against a human opponent, a real challenge unlike a computer opponent that is willing to let you easily defeat them each and every time.
A perfect example of PVP condescending attitudes. As if PVPers are some how better and have more fun then anyone else.
Short of adding a set of examples of name calling and insults there is not much else that needs to be said. Its been demonstrated well enough already.
I agree. I used to avoid PvP like the Phage until I started actually having some fun with Fleet Mates.
You'd be amazed at how many times us Caitians become hate figures on ground maps
So in this thread there's one person who hasn't tried it and two who did and liked it, three if you include me.
PvP isn't for everyone, I didn't like it in any other MMO I've tried it in. But there's always a group of people in a MMO who refuse to try PvP because of a bad experience they had in some other game, or someone they knew had in some other game.
If you've tried PvP and don't like it, then this thread isn't aimed at you. It's aimed at people who haven't tried it yet, I mean the topic is "New players, try some PvP".
After sitting in queue for straight up fed vs klingon for about 40 minutes, filled with tons of countdowns ending with 'not enough players confirmed' I finally got into a 4v4 match.
Round starts and one player on our side immediately dissapears, maybe LD or just freaked and bailed, I dunno.
Myself and another cruiser start heading into the asteroid field, where I assume the klingons will be waiting to jump us, the third on our team flying an escort just sits at spawn.
Group invite goes up and the three of us are grouped .... then we meet the klingons, just the two of us mind you as our escort is still sitting at spawn point. I dunno reading the paper or maybe he had to take a leak.
Right away I just target the first ship I get in range of and let it rip. Once he goes down I target the other guy that came in with me and fire off what little 'support' skills I have (me being a tac officer DPS focused cruiser) I keep trying to fire on the same target he is, but every time I fire off a support type skill it resets my target to him and stops firing (annoying as all heck in a 'furball').
Eventually the escort joins us, but I think that once the klingons figured out there were only three of us they just shifted into "you're F#TRIBBLE#$" gear, and we were.
I got a bunch of kills in the chaos, as well as the second highest score on both teams. So I was happy that I made some sort of impact, even though we were outnumbered and squished.
It was fun.
I can see myself doing more PVP in the future, but only when I'm bored with my PVE gameplay.
It would be SO MUCH better if you didn't have to wait forever in queues that don't pan out most of the time (to few players etc.). This was I believe at 'commander' level, I'm half way through 'captain' now and I imagine the queues will be much easier at the top levels.
AH's?
Smack-talk?
I really couldn't say. Chat was pretty quite I think there were only two things said the whole time...
"We're screwed"
Followed by a simple...
"Yep"
But after levelling 3 fed va's i got fed up with fed playing and the kids do seem to be on that side and the endless tribble film quotes lol
So i tried a KDF and stuck it out , great bunch there , more adult too but the important thing is i had to try pvp , im so glad i did , its a riot , once its more balanced and ques are fixed and pvp territory control is in it will be main part of the game i hope!
Make the sector open pvp too!
I sucked at first but now i take on 3 feds without a thought , and kick TRIBBLE lol.
Note: pleae remove kvk and fvf pvp for now , we need faction v faction.
No, that is what you surmised I said. But just to clarify for you what I was saying is simply, when all you play against is NPCs (PVE) it does not take very long to figure out their tendencies and easily overcome them. Lets face it the AI in this game is not very challenging at normal level. Even at expert level the AI does not change just the damage is increased, they still react the same way each and every time you encounter them.
Thats not true when you are playing against another human player (PVP), so obviously going against a human player is more challenging because they do not act the same as a AI controlled NPC.
The added human element makes it more difficult in most cases.
To clarify further: While playing against humans, rather than AI, may be more challenging, that does not mean it is more fun. Not for everyone. Maybe for you, but for me the challenge of the AI on regular is almost exactly right to maximize my fun, which is derived from the narrative. When the narrative calls for me to win a space battle, it's fun to win a space battle, not for the battle's sake, but because it's fun to be playing out a story.
Running around Memory Alpha settling disputes between a family of Ferengi was at least as much (possibly more) fun for me as, say, blowing up three groups of (True Way vs.) Breen who are after the same plot element as I am. Running back and forth across space, hardly seeing the Breen I'm chasing across four systems, is at least as much (possibly more) fun as chasing down groups of Breen on the surface & killing them. In fact, for me, talking to the Breen before/after each fight is what made the fights worthwhile. Which is why PvP isn't fun for me. There's no story. There's no reason for me to be fighting. And more challenge would make it less fun, not more fun. If I couldn't beat my opponent and get to the next chunk of story because I had to deal with human opponents, I'd probably just stop playing, because playing would stop being fun.
And no, I'll never turn up my difficulty setting. Yech. Components/Regenerators are useless vendor trash to me.
To clarify further: While playing against humans, rather than AI, may be more challenging, that does not mean it is more fun. Not for everyone. Maybe for you, but for me the challenge of the AI on regular is almost exactly right to maximize my fun, which is derived from the narrative. When the narrative calls for me to win a space battle, it's fun to win a space battle, not for the battle's sake, but because it's fun to be playing out a story.
Running around Memory Alpha settling disputes between a family of Ferengi was at least as much (possibly more) fun for me as, say, blowing up three groups of (True Way vs.) Breen who are after the same plot element as I am. Running back and forth across space, hardly seeing the Breen I'm chasing across four systems, is at least as much (possibly more) fun as chasing down groups of Breen on the surface & killing them. In fact, for me, talking to the Breen before/after each fight is what made the fights worthwhile. Which is why PvP isn't fun for me. There's no story. There's no reason for me to be fighting. And more challenge would make it less fun, not more fun. If I couldn't beat my opponent and get to the next chunk of story because I had to deal with human opponents, I'd probably just stop playing, because playing would stop being fun.
And no, I'll never turn up my difficulty setting. Yech. Components/Regenerators are useless vendor trash to me.
To each his own....
But again, I never said it was MORE FUN, I said it was fun. Why does every non pvp'er add things that are NOT said lol.
I really don't need you to add dialog to my posts like I am one of your play characters you have created in your mind.;)
Actually, modernevil does have a good point. PvP in STO does lack a contextual frame (whether it's narrative, or territorial gain/loss, or whatever). This is something I complained about back in beta, and it's why I've advocated the idea of parallel PvE/PvP campaigns, where one mode supports the other and players can switch between modes as feels appropriate for them. But that's another thread altogether.
That said, one of the reasons I PvP is because I get burnt out on the PvE narrative. Fed-side, there's just one storyline, and for a confirmed altoholic like myself it's like pulling teeth to run yet another character through the story. So I switch off - when I get tired of PvE, I'll PvP; when I get tired of PvP, I'll PvE. For me, PvP is more interesting and satisfying than exploration and defend missions, and a lot more accessible than fleet actions.
Comments
Yeap, pretty much why I stay away from PvP.
That's one take. An alternative take is to get these people to talk and work together and show the Klingons how it's done.
Of course, getting some of these AFKers to act is difficult. Probably impossible. But if everyone is just giving up because of them, how is it ever going to get better?
The more people are playing that understand and respect the value of teamwork and that are not in for the meaningless grind of Emblems or Marks, the more likely it is you get a decent group.
One of the biggest reasons to play PvP is because it has the best chance of not being a tedious grindfest. In PvE, you are fighting the same fights over and over again. On easy, victory is quick and easy. On Elite, victory is tedius and slow. There is never really a point where you feel genuinely surprised by what your opponent is doing. You will never have the satisfication of outwitting a clever opponent.
And you seem determined to counter every complaint with a meaningless and pithy comeback. Instead of acutally understanding the reasons for the complaints.
You say its fine but you couldn't resist adding your own comments on the meaningfullness of winning or loosing. In the course of this debate, in your efforts to offer counter points.You have implied non-PVPers are soft skinned, in need of improvement of their PVE game via PVP experience, and in my paticular case, damaged by what had to of been by a bad experience. For someone trying to change opinions this is a poor tactic
I'm reacting to the condesending nature of all this. That our perseptions are off or we are misinformed and that with the right come back or arguement we will change and accept PVP. It comes off just a bit arrogant.
But I will give credit where its due. STO has one of the more mature and adult communities I've been apart of. If one wants to experiment with PVP there are few better places. But if folks have aready decided PVP to be distasteful this place will not change that opinion
I'm curious what PVP matches you do and from which side. I'll do FVF for the dailies. I'm definitely no PVP expert but from what I've read Klingon-centric players simply say that "Feds suck" and the few FVK matches I've played would seem to back up that claim. I question whether FVK is actually ever a good fight outside two premade teams facing off? Even in FVF whichever group works together effectively doesn't just win, they completely shut out the other side. 15/0 arena matches and 1200/0 cap n hold matches. That's not a good fight to me no matter which side I'm on.
I usually have zone chat off but occasionally I'll have my all channels tab on and it never seems to fail that before I'll finish my 3 PVP daily missions someone will feel the need to show what ***** they are. Ker'rat is absolutely atrocious for that as well. I'm sure those people are the small minority however it only takes a few run-ins with someone like that to leave a bad taste for PVP.
I tried FVK, and there's simply no point for me to queue up for that. I'm just a "sucky Fed" I guess. I'll do FVF for the dailies and even those are pretty much lopsided battles. Once in a while it'll be a good fight but the irony is a really good fight quits being fun after about 20 minutes of going nowhere. Where are the good fights being fought at? Is KVK where the epic fights are being held because I've never found any in FVF or FVK. I'm not going to queue up for 2 or 3 hours just in the hope that one of the fights is worth it.
I have no doubt some find PVP to be a lot of fun, however from looking at the queues it seems quite a few more are just doing FVF for the dailies. I really don't see what the dev team can do to make PVP more fun as the experience is completely dependent upon the people participating. It's one thing to try and encourage those who have never done it to give it a shot, but the real problem is those who have tried and and no longer want anything to do with PVP. There's a lot more people burned by bad PVP experiences than there are those who have never queued up.
I can't speak for anyone else, but my problem isn't AFK'ers, it's just being constantly chokeslammed by any and every Klink ship I happen upon. Higher level, lower level, same level - it doesn't matter; my shields are down in 2 seconds, re-spawn time in 3.
Also, I have to jump on the minority bandwagon - I haven't actually seen any AH's around, nor witnessed any trash talking; just 'gg' by the winning team.
I do Klingon versus Federation PuG usually at 4pm to 6pm CST USA.
I hardly ever see trash talking and most games are fun and challenging, though there is the occassional one-sided victory - sometimes fed sometimes Klingon.
- The enemy will attack you fully buffed. Ensure that you are already buffed, or buffed up pretty soon after his attack begins. Very important here are all types of shield and hull resistance buffs. (Emergency Power to Shields, Polarize Hull might be the most important, though RSP might currently be the most mportant.)
(It is an unfortunate reality in this game that shields or hull without significant resist buffs don't just last very long.). Cruisers can easily cycle 2 Emergency Power to Shields for good shield resistance.
If you find you can't react fast enough, bu y yourself reaction time with covariant shields and/or [cap] shields.
- Use the Distribute Shield Power often. it strengthens your weakest shield facing. It lets you use all the shield's regeneration (a shield facing at 100 % means shield healing is not applied there. Distribute shield power, and you can use that.)
- Keep moving. Never come to a full stop, unless you need to do it for some maneuver. But certainly never when you're waiting for the opponent to strike. Speed incrases your defense, which reduces the chance to be hit or (failing that) the impact of critical hits. Sometimes the best you can do is just to run away. Also, if you keep moving, it becomes more difficult to keep you in the firing arc, and to focus on one shield facing.
- Stay and work together. Teamwork is crucial. You need someone watching your back, and you need to watch someone's back. Don't hoard your healing (if you got any at all). Figure out who the group targets.
Lol, I was thinking the same thing. Not enough newbies to blow up.
This is how most mmo pvper's respond to pve players. I think its a big joke that he says pvp will improve pve.
- Ships are going down very fast, maybe too fast. It is hard to even start enjoying PvP combat if in less than 3 seconds, your shields and hull get down to 0% and you blow up.
- Which bring us to the problem of having multiple ships targeting one enemy and wiping it out before he can even react. It certainly is a very succesful tactic but it makes for a very boring PvP experience ( on both side id say ).
- Where is the fun when you obviously know that by being 5 vs 1 to fire at enemy you know you'll win for sure and that when you are being fired upon by five enemies you know that resistance is futile. When i realise that everyone is targeting and firing at me, i just give up because it`s hopeless. Having 2 human-played enemy ships stalking you is challenging enough alreadybut when the 5 of them are chasing you, it`s just over the top.
I do not claim to have any solution for this and i acknowledge that ganking tactic is sound and effective. But i also recognize that it makes for a very boring and unchallenging PvP experience.
I do not know what could be done to encourage ships to spread out a little more around and have players engage more into 1 on 1, 2 on 1 dogfights that would make the fun last a little longer.
Considering the reaction and over-reading of the Kolikos's sincere invite and explanation, the soft-skinned part might be right.
I'm not sure where that was ever said.
All the OP was trying to say is, that you should give PvP a try. That's all, nothing else. It's not a statement that really needs any debate or discussion really. There's no cause here to champion. There are a number of people who keep posting the same old reasons for not trying something... Even though they don't know know what things are really like here.
It's a bit like someone refusing to eat a vegetable because they heard from someone else that several years ago they tried it and hated it.
A lot of people don't like PvP in MMO's and often for a good reason. But those reasons aren't universal and it is possible to have a fun time in PvP. I tried it here and I liked it.
Mostly though I see a lot of people here saying they won't like it, even though they've never actually tried it.
Your shields can easily be buffed to reduce all damage taken by 75%. This means that even with nor regeneration, and on the frailest of ships it takes over 20k damage to start hitting hull. On my cruiser with covariant capx2 shields it would take over 30k of damage to one facing to hit my hull, assuming that I do nothing else to heal, regenerate, or balance my shields in that time.
If you run EPtS III, or any combination of EPtS I or II with Transfer Shield Strength I or II, you can't be "one-shot". Even 2 or 3 ships together will need to chew on you a while.
If you want the easy mode to survival, run a cruiser with 2 copies of EPtS II or III, and 2 copies of TSS I or II. 2 copies of EPtS can be chained almost perfectly, and the TSS will give you extra strength along with a heal-over-time when you need it. If you ever die in 3 seconds it will be because you forgot to buff yourself.
It's a little harder to tank damage in a science ship, and a lot harder in an escort, but the same lessons learned on a cruiser will apply.
The easy way to avoid focus fire is to always move at top speed, and pop Evasive Maneuvers, Aux to Dampeners, and/or EPtE whenever the other team focusses on you. When you get a sudden burst of speed, one or two enemies will probably follow you, but it's very unlikely that the whole enemy team will all have speed buffs available at the same time.
Another way to break up focus fire is to look for an enemy with no defensive buffs up, and hit him with Beam Overload. That probably won't kill him, but the sudden damage to a shield facing will almost always make the enemy turn a different shield to face you and shift their attention to defense.
A third way to break up focus fire is through various AOE attacks. Minefields, Tyken's Rift, and Gravity Wells all make you opponent focus on defensing themselves rather than killing you, and will often cause them to use speed boosts and scatter.
A forth way to break up focus fire is by slowing or holding your enemy. Tractor Beam, Eject Warp Plasma, Target Engines, and Chroniton Mines all work.
Finally there is RSP. Personally I don't rely on it, but it does protect you against any number of opponents, and even after it gets nerfed it will give you a couple of seconds to get something else started.
I agree, he never said that, yet I see non-pvp people claiming he did. All I saw was someone inviting others to join and have some fun, but also pointing out that its not a cakewalk either.
Its ok, they can keep playing PVE content which is simply a win/win situation for them, however they will never know how much fun a real space battle is against a human opponent, a real challenge unlike a computer opponent that is willing to let you easily defeat them each and every time.
I can't question your experience - I can only say that mine has differed. I don't recall any smack-talk in ground PvP, and of the 3 instances of space smack that I do remember, 2 of those were players berating their own teams for suckage.
Maybe it's different in the dailies. I'm not high enough level yet, so I couldn't say.
Yep, I've been on both the winning and losing ends in blow-out fights, both in FvK and KvK. Premades are aggravating for a PuGger like myself. However, one thing I have noticed is that Fed PuGs seem to have more potential for synergy than KDF teams. Whether they realize that potential is another matter, of course... but the reason I say this is that if my space PuG gets smoked by a Fed team, I'll occasionally send a /tell to one of the Feds saying, "Good job - premade?" When I've gotten an answer, it's something like "Just been teaming for a couple of matches."
So, yeah, the blow-outs are a bummer - but it's not always premades. And again our experiences differ; the majority of the fights I've been in show something on both sides of the scoreboard.
Yeah, that sucks. If dailies work like I think they do, it just seems like a fundamental design flaw that invites all kinds of cr*p.
Fair point. If it helps, there are friendly PuGgers out there. We just don't stand out because we don't smack-talk or run in premades.
Just because it can't be said enough, the key to winning as a fed against Klingons is to have resistances up *before* they attack. After that, if you aren't the one being focussed on, don't be stingy with your heals.
On the other hand, I don't understand the appeal of two teams involved in any sort of repetitive, meaningless competition for points and "glory," the results of which have no bearing on the next bout and, except for an annual summing-up-of-results, even less bearing on the next "season" of the sport. In PvP the non-narrative nature of PvP is significantly worse than in professional sports, as team makeup in pro-sports tends to remain relatively similar over the course of a season, but in PvP I'm teamed with -and playing against- totally different players every time. Sports, and PvP, to me are the polar opposite of what interests me. I see people playing sports, or I hear about PvP, or ... actually give it an honest try, and in no time I'm wondering why I'm wasting my time on something so utterly without meaning.
Mine is a philosophical point of view, not a technical one. It isn't that you could teach me how to "win" at PvP and I'd suddenly find it meaningful. It isn't that I just need to find "a good fleet" and "learn teamwork" and the act of playing PvP will suddenly appeal to me. Maybe MAYBE if my engaging in PvP had some bearing on some MMO-wide narrative, I might be engaged by the chance to influence the narrative - but it couldn't be done like EVE, where the players literally invent the only narrative that exists in the game from whole cloth, or like Tabula Rasa wanted to do it where no matter what players did, the war would last forever. That's just my preference.
* * *
Now to my actual experiences in STO: I've been a lifetime subscriber since closed beta. I played 1 character, casually, for about 6 months before I reached RA -just after they lifted the cap- and still haven't reached VA with that character. I never repeated a repeatable mission, and the only near-PvP thing I did with that character was attempt Ker'rat once or twice while it was still bugged (incompleteable). I don't play on teams, at all, except fleet actions, which I completed once each (CE sucks only because of bad teamwork). I've had a blast, and already feel I've gotten my money's worth from STO/LTS.
Just before the start of the weekly missions, I'd reached Gamma Orionis & the looming STFs (which are nothing-but-hated-on in the forums, and which I felt my never-having-played would mean no one would want me on their team; I wish I could just take my away team), and I decided to start a second character. Re-playing through all the missions (once each) has been just as fun as it was the first time; it's like watching re-runs of a beloved Star Trek TV show. Playing tactical/escort (Caitian) instead of Engineer/Science (alien) makes space combat feel like a totally different game (and ground combat nigh-impossible, so far).
Then the weekly missions started. Fun on my first toon, a bit repetitive on my 2nd (who had just reached LtC), and I kept hearing how the narrative was different for KDF players, and I play for the narrative, so I rolled an Orion. At first, I was frustrated that I was starting at LT6, but without the advantage of all the gear & EC I'd have earned by then if I'd played up to that point. Then I was frustrated because what to do wasn't obvious. On the Fed side, I'm led almost by the nose through a comprehensive narrative path; I always know where to go, what to do, and who to talk to. On the KDF side, I get missions with no location, there are contacts I'm never directed to (just standing around Qo'nos, I guess I was supposed to guess about talking to) who have important information/missions for me, and to someone who had never tried PvP, KDF space is completely full of non-locations I can't go to, which simply pop up a "PvP Queues" window that took me about 2 days of playing and asking questions in chat & on the forums to understand. It isn't explained ANYWHERE IN GAME; I re-read all my missions/communications to try to figure things out, and it's just not there. After about a week and a half, in the same play time I leveled my new Fed to Commander, I managed to get the hang of it & reached Lt10. I wanted to give PvP a fair chance, so I didn't just go grind exploration, I fought it out (mostly with the UI / lack of instruction).
At Lt10 I got a KDF PvE mission chain which didn't make any sense for my Orion to be involved in. Fun, but all the narrative text was written as though I were playing a Klingon. Every time I logged the character on, I would get in 3 PvP queues before doing anything else (having learned this is what I was supposed to do), but I still barely ever got into any PvP. I played through the Breen episodes & found that about 5% of the narrative had been ever-so-slightly shifted for the KDF side. As far as I can tell, the only reason to play KDF is PvP. I'll keep playing my Orion every week, trying the new missions to see if that 5% grows at all, and always adding myself to PvP Queues as soon as I log on, taking the matches whenever they appear, et cetera... So the OP gets their way, in a way, but ... man, it's like having to sit through the Super Bowl when all I wanted was to see the funny commercials.
tl;dr: In the same way I'm more likely to write a book than play a sport in real life, I'm not interested in PvP in STO. (Fed or KDF)
You seem to miss understand the point the OP is trying to make I think.
He's not saying you will enjoy PvP if you try it. But rather that people should try it at least once and see if they like it or not. A lot of people seem to avoid PvP because of a bad experience they had in another game, or someone they knew had in a different game.
But if you try PvP here, you may just find you like it... Or you may not in which case the worst thing that would happen is you wasted a little bit of time.
This was my mistake. It was said, but not by Kolikos. My apologies for attributing that to him.
The general theme here is not that folks here are refusing PVP like kids who wont eat their veggies. But folks who have tried it, and even tried it here, and have issues or problems with it. Alot of the resentment here is because of ignorance like this. "They dont like PVP therefore they must not of tried it". When clearly most of their complaints indicate that they have.
And then we have this.
A perfect example of PVP condescending attitudes. As if PVPers are some how better and have more fun then anyone else.
Short of adding a set of examples of name calling and insults there is not much else that needs to be said. Its been demonstrated well enough already.
Or this.
So in this thread there's one person who hasn't tried it and two who did and liked it, three if you include me.
PvP isn't for everyone, I didn't like it in any other MMO I've tried it in. But there's always a group of people in a MMO who refuse to try PvP because of a bad experience they had in some other game, or someone they knew had in some other game.
If you've tried PvP and don't like it, then this thread isn't aimed at you. It's aimed at people who haven't tried it yet, I mean the topic is "New players, try some PvP".
I did the PVP thing once.
After sitting in queue for straight up fed vs klingon for about 40 minutes, filled with tons of countdowns ending with 'not enough players confirmed' I finally got into a 4v4 match.
Round starts and one player on our side immediately dissapears, maybe LD or just freaked and bailed, I dunno.
Myself and another cruiser start heading into the asteroid field, where I assume the klingons will be waiting to jump us, the third on our team flying an escort just sits at spawn.
Group invite goes up and the three of us are grouped .... then we meet the klingons, just the two of us mind you as our escort is still sitting at spawn point. I dunno reading the paper or maybe he had to take a leak.
Right away I just target the first ship I get in range of and let it rip. Once he goes down I target the other guy that came in with me and fire off what little 'support' skills I have (me being a tac officer DPS focused cruiser) I keep trying to fire on the same target he is, but every time I fire off a support type skill it resets my target to him and stops firing (annoying as all heck in a 'furball').
Eventually the escort joins us, but I think that once the klingons figured out there were only three of us they just shifted into "you're F#TRIBBLE#$" gear, and we were.
I got a bunch of kills in the chaos, as well as the second highest score on both teams. So I was happy that I made some sort of impact, even though we were outnumbered and squished.
It was fun.
I can see myself doing more PVP in the future, but only when I'm bored with my PVE gameplay.
It would be SO MUCH better if you didn't have to wait forever in queues that don't pan out most of the time (to few players etc.). This was I believe at 'commander' level, I'm half way through 'captain' now and I imagine the queues will be much easier at the top levels.
AH's?
Smack-talk?
I really couldn't say. Chat was pretty quite I think there were only two things said the whole time...
"We're screwed"
Followed by a simple...
"Yep"
But after levelling 3 fed va's i got fed up with fed playing and the kids do seem to be on that side and the endless tribble film quotes lol
So i tried a KDF and stuck it out , great bunch there , more adult too but the important thing is i had to try pvp , im so glad i did , its a riot , once its more balanced and ques are fixed and pvp territory control is in it will be main part of the game i hope!
Make the sector open pvp too!
I sucked at first but now i take on 3 feds without a thought , and kick TRIBBLE lol.
Note: pleae remove kvk and fvf pvp for now , we need faction v faction.
You sure like to take things out of context to make your point somehow revelent lol.
No where did I state what you somehow surmised that PVP'ers are better or worse than PVE'ers or that we have more fun than anyone else.
Honestly I really don't care if you PVP or not, you are the one missing out on a challenging part of the game you currently pay for not me.
You're posts also seem to have a condesending attitude towards PvP'ing in them, a little bit hypocritical isn't it ?
Did your cartoon ship get blown up one too many times in a pvp zone ?
James, I'm happy to see that you are willing to try some PvP. I hope that you have found it as fun as I have.
Thats pretty much exactly what you said.
No, that is what you surmised I said. But just to clarify for you what I was saying is simply, when all you play against is NPCs (PVE) it does not take very long to figure out their tendencies and easily overcome them. Lets face it the AI in this game is not very challenging at normal level. Even at expert level the AI does not change just the damage is increased, they still react the same way each and every time you encounter them.
Thats not true when you are playing against another human player (PVP), so obviously going against a human player is more challenging because they do not act the same as a AI controlled NPC.
The added human element makes it more difficult in most cases.
Running around Memory Alpha settling disputes between a family of Ferengi was at least as much (possibly more) fun for me as, say, blowing up three groups of (True Way vs.) Breen who are after the same plot element as I am. Running back and forth across space, hardly seeing the Breen I'm chasing across four systems, is at least as much (possibly more) fun as chasing down groups of Breen on the surface & killing them. In fact, for me, talking to the Breen before/after each fight is what made the fights worthwhile. Which is why PvP isn't fun for me. There's no story. There's no reason for me to be fighting. And more challenge would make it less fun, not more fun. If I couldn't beat my opponent and get to the next chunk of story because I had to deal with human opponents, I'd probably just stop playing, because playing would stop being fun.
And no, I'll never turn up my difficulty setting. Yech. Components/Regenerators are useless vendor trash to me.
To each his own....
But again, I never said it was MORE FUN, I said it was fun. Why does every non pvp'er add things that are NOT said lol.
I really don't need you to add dialog to my posts like I am one of your play characters you have created in your mind.;)
That said, one of the reasons I PvP is because I get burnt out on the PvE narrative. Fed-side, there's just one storyline, and for a confirmed altoholic like myself it's like pulling teeth to run yet another character through the story. So I switch off - when I get tired of PvE, I'll PvP; when I get tired of PvP, I'll PvE. For me, PvP is more interesting and satisfying than exploration and defend missions, and a lot more accessible than fleet actions.