I agree completely. Content that is designed to be played by more than one faction has to be as bland and generic as possible, otherwise it wont make sense for every faction. Unfortunately, band and generic content isnt very fun. If Cryptic needs to hire more people, then so be it. But each faction they add deserves to have content that represents the theme of that faction.
Unfortunately, I disagree
Given enough agnostic, lateral content, players can forge their own way to cap - rather than be forced into specific path.
A compelling story can be adapted very quickly to each faction: briefings are changed to reflect the faction and possibly the boss fight is handled differently (Klingons kill him to death, Romulans cloak him to death, Federation talk him to death).
Enough lateral content over a long enough time frame means there will be content you'll never see.
Also, factions could very easily have their own starting zones (and quest) but eventually work their way into shared zones with slightly different quests. This frees Cryptic up to develop lots of lateral content that everyone can play.
Let's say the trading/mining/starbase expansion releases. All those play elements can be done faction agnostically (even starbases if you consider DS9 was actually Cardassian by design).
Have randomized missions aboard your station and you've paved a lot of content for a Ferengi or Neutral faction - allowing players to be anyone from Okana to the Grand Nagus himself.
A compelling story can be adapted very quickly to each faction: briefings are changed to reflect the faction and possibly the boss fight is handled differently (Klingons kill him to death, Romulans cloak him to death, Federation talk him to death).
If that were really true, then why havent Klingons gotten their own versions of all the Fed episodes yet? Since its so "quick" to do?
If that were really true, then why havent Klingons gotten their own versions of all the Fed episodes yet? Since its so "quick" to do?
because developers are creating brand new, Klingon-faction specific content. I can't think of a good reason why a Federation vessel would go to "The Gates to Gre'thor" as dstahl posted in a screenshot.
There's also nothing stating that many missions weren't adapted already. Te only teasers we've seen are "from scratch" missions like the ones at the gates of Gre'thor.
However, that Romulan mission could easily be adapted to the KDF faction (it would, perhaps, need to be moved however).
Given enough agnostic, lateral content, players can forge their own way to cap - rather than be forced into specific path.
A compelling story can be adapted very quickly to each faction: briefings are changed to reflect the faction and possibly the boss fight is handled differently (Klingons kill him to death, Romulans cloak him to death, Federation talk him to death).
Have they even bothered doing this in the STFs and the Klink missions in GO? I honestly don't know, I haven't been able to stomach getting a KDF character to LtC.
Also, factions could very easily have their own starting zones (and quest) but eventually work their way into shared zones with slightly different quests. This frees Cryptic up to develop lots of lateral content that everyone can play.
Let's say the trading/mining/starbase expansion releases. All those play elements can be done faction agnostically (even starbases if you consider DS9 was actually Cardassian by design).
Have randomized missions aboard your station and you've paved a lot of content for a Ferengi or Neutral faction - allowing players to be anyone from Okana to the Grand Nagus himself.
What I hope they don't do is make every starbase interior look the same because of it.
A compelling story can be adapted very quickly to each faction: briefings are changed to reflect the faction and possibly the boss fight is handled differently (Klingons kill him to death, Romulans cloak him to death, Federation talk him to death).
So -
The Feds would get 'Old Yeller', the story of a boy and his dog.
The Klingons would get 'Old Red', the story of a boy and his targ.
The Romulans would get 'Old Blue', the story of a boy and his set'leth.
The Feds would get 'Old Yeller', the story of a boy and his dog.
The Klingons would get 'Old Red', the story of a boy and his targ.
The Romulans would get 'Old Blue', the story of a boy and his set'leth.
I suppose some things are universal.
Actually, I wouldn't mind that if it were a one-off mission.
Archer and his beagle.
Worf and a targ (though I suspect Worf would eat his).
I think it's worth noting that most MMORPGs don't have more than two factions. Star Trek by its very nature seems to demand more than two, however. Players who aren't happy with the Federation demand more Klingon content, players who aren't happy with either demand Romulans, some have demanded, Borg, Cardassian, Dominion, Tholian and so on.
The biggest problem with this is that Cryptic is a relatively small company and they're running more than one MMO. Even though they aren't being run by the same teams those two (and the upcoming third) MMO still stretch resources and adding more factions will stretch those resources even farther. I don't really see a time when all the myriad factions of STO are as fleshed out as the Federation, especially if more keep being added. Klingons and Romulans alone are going to be stretching things as it is.
Even Blizzard with WoW, arguably -the- biggest and most profitable MMO around at the moment only has two factions in spite of player demands to add the Undead as their own faction or that Demon race from Warcraft III. Granted, they only put a mere pittance of what they make off of the game back into WoW but they're still obsessed with only having two factions, which probably says something about how difficult it is to balance more than two at a time.
I think it's worth noting that most MMORPGs don't have more than two factions. Star Trek by its very nature seems to demand more than two, however. Players who aren't happy with the Federation demand more Klingon content, players who aren't happy with either demand Romulans, some have demanded, Borg, Cardassian, Dominion, Tholian and so on.
The biggest problem with this is that Cryptic is a relatively small company and they're running more than one MMO. Even though they aren't being run by the same teams those two (and the upcoming third) MMO still stretch resources and adding more factions will stretch those resources even farther. I don't really see a time when all the myriad factions of STO are as fleshed out as the Federation, especially if more keep being added. Klingons and Romulans alone are going to be stretching things as it is.
Even Blizzard with WoW, arguably -the- biggest and most profitable MMO around at the moment only has two factions in spite of player demands to add the Undead as their own faction or that Demon race from Warcraft III. Granted, they only put a mere pittance of what they make off of the game back into WoW but they're still obsessed with only having two factions, which probably says something about how difficult it is to balance more than two at a time.
What hes saying is... forget the rest... make undine ya priority!
Cryptic can't keep up with multiple factions. It's very clear when you compare Klingons to the Federation. They are already over-worked with keeping one faction (the Federation) working, while denying the other.
I think it's worth noting that most MMORPGs don't have more than two factions. Star Trek by its very nature seems to demand more than two, however. Players who aren't happy with the Federation demand more Klingon content, players who aren't happy with either demand Romulans, some have demanded, Borg, Cardassian, Dominion, Tholian and so on.
While that may be true, the vast MAJORITY of STO players are either Fed or Klingon fans. Those are the two most popular factions by FAR. That being the case, Cryptic should completely finish those two factions(mainly the Klingons at this point) before they add another. And that will take MUCH more than just 8 episodes that they'll be getting in Season 2. Unfortunately, I have some doubts about whether they will actually do all of that before they add Romulans.
The biggest problem with this is that Cryptic is a relatively small company and they're running more than one MMO. Even though they aren't being run by the same teams those two (and the upcoming third) MMO still stretch resources and adding more factions will stretch those resources even farther. I don't really see a time when all the myriad factions of STO are as fleshed out as the Federation, especially if more keep being added. Klingons and Romulans alone are going to be stretching things as it is.
Then it sounds like some bad decisions are being made at a corporate level. Rushing out a bunch of half finished games is NOT good for a companies reputation. Taking the time to make a finished quality product, however, is. Of course, Atari may be forcing Cryptic's hand, we simply dont know.
While that may be true, the vast MAJORITY of STO players are either Fed or Klingon fans. Those are the two most popular factions by FAR. That being the case, Cryptic should completely finish those two factions(mainly the Klingons at this point) before they add another. And that will take MUCH more than just 8 episodes that they'll be getting in Season 2. Unfortunately, I have some doubts about whether they will actually do all of that before they add Romulans.
You hit the nail right on the head and I think this falls to player demands / requests. So many people want new content.. they want this.. they want that.. they want moons that eat people (well maybe not).. I think this is a big problem. Now, I don't mind player input into the development of the game but it just seems to me that there is too much player input. To me I feel as if Cryptic really doesn't know what to do with Star Trek Online so instead of expanding what we already have, they are continuously adding stuff that isn't really needed right now.
I've always stated that the entire direction of this game has been blown out of porportion by some of the Cryptic dev team. The Klingons should not have been given to us at launch and the start of the game should have focused on the war with the Klingons and its impact on Federation space. Instead, to me, we've been given a game that appears large in size but is nothing like that at all. The Federation is facing insurmountable odds and are being threatened at every corner. I'm sorry, but considering the Federation had so much trouble against JUST the Dominion, I'm not sure they could realistically handle the Klingons AND the Romulans AND the Borg AND the Undine AND the True Way. Basically what i'm trying to say, which I'm not sure if people will understand, is that Cryptic is trying to show they're adding alot of content by making the general area of space larger (by adding more sectors / zones) but really the quantity and quality of said missions isn't that great.
Then it sounds like some bad decisions are being made at a corporate level. Rushing out a bunch of half finished games is NOT good for a companies reputation. Taking the time to make a finished quality product, however, is. Of course, Atari may be forcing Cryptic's hand, we simply dont know.
One thing really made me laugh recently from an interview with Craig.
What we found with the Klingon Faction is that our vision of what the Klingons were at launch (whether misunderstood or just something none of the users wanted) was that we learned pretty quick was that they wanted a PvE experience, in addition to whatever PvP was available in the game.
So, since then, we have added in Fleet Actions and Star Clusters. With Season 2, we're adding in unique content for the Klingons - as well as any episodic or sector-wise content being faction agnostic. Basically meaning, if the Federation can play those episodes, the Klingon will be able to play those episodes as well.
Did they not know for months prior to launch that many people wanted a PVE experience from the Klingons as well as PVP? I could be remembering incorrectly but I seem to remember people wanting that, or at least being concerned about that. Which leads me to my next question - is the community's voice properly being heard despite us being told that it is.
I don't know, I don't really count Fleet Actions or Star Clusters as proper content. Before I stopped playing STO last month I found most Fleet Actions not doable and Star Clusters don't really have any story to them especially after you do them a handful of times.
Now I don't doubt Cryptic's work ethic.. they're doing what they can with the people with they have.. but are they doing the right things and are they putting their money towards the right things? I really don't think they are, but that's my opinion. I don't really see any passion for Star Trek in this game, and simply the website alone (compared to other MMOs or just single player games).
Did they not know for months prior to launch that many people wanted a PVE experience from the Klingons as well as PVP?
I hate to use the word "lie", so I'll say "spin". The whole "Klingons are PvP focused" thing was spin. Klingons were originally intended to be a full faction with full PvE, just like the Feds. However, as it got closer to lauch the Devs saw they werent going to be able to deliver what they had said, someone came up with the idea that instead of actually telling us they didnt have time to finish, they would call the Klingons "PvP focused"(despite the fact that people were asking for PvE, like you just said) and make it look like they only had PvP on purpose :rolleyes:
Now that the game has launched they are trying to play catch up, and the comment you quoted is simply MORE spin to make the fact that they are just catching up on what they couldnt get in at launch look like it is actually being done in response to the community's feedback. But like you said, this SAME feedback was given back in beta
Now that the game has launched they are trying to play catch up, and the comment you quoted is simply MORE spin to make the fact that they are just catching up on what they couldnt get in at launch look like it is actually being done in response to the community's feedback. But like you said, this SAME feedback was given back in beta
I totally agree with what you are saying. It just irks me at the thought that they are even considering a new faction right now. They need to expand what's currently in the game.. give us more planets to beam down to (and if that involves fixing ground combat so that more people like it then so be it).. I loved the ground portion but I'm not an idiot.. there are alot of people that don't like it. The whole slogan for Star Trek.. "to explore strange new worlds and new civilizations" is not even really in the game.. you can only go to three planets on the Fed side and there isn't really that much to do on them. IMO they really need to expand the ground / planet side of the game.. it'll help in making the game feel bigger in my opinion. There are tons of planets that could be added to Federation space and Klingon space (Gorn space) for more content. To me space really seems small.
For the size of company that Cryptic is, at this current time, they cannot do the Star Trek Universe justice, and despite they are claiming otherwise, they aren't going to be able to do any additional factions justice without ignoring any of the existing ones. The one that's worst off at the moment are the Klingons. They need MORE space (such as the aforementioned Gorn Space). They need more PVE, and they just plainly need more content (we won't discuss the upcoming 8 'episodes' that the Klingons are supposed to get). They need more content that makes sense. One of the things that really ****ed me off and contributed to me not playing anymore was the fact that these random nebulas were placed in Klingon space for content featuring various races (Federation, True Way, Dominion, etc) Though I could potentially think of a good RP reason why they might be there, it generally does not make any sense why these species would have been able to get so deep into Klingon territory - war or not - and maintain a continued presence there. In their earnest to give us content, there are just too many things that bother me about the content they do put in that just makes it not playable for me... i suppose it's a drawback that I'm facing since I actually care about the Star Trek Universe.
Unfortunately for a mission to work for all 4 factions it would have to be pretty darn generic, meaning no in depth stories like the missions people enjoy the most currently. Another question I cant help but wonder is what is going to happen to the pace of new content for the Feds/Klingons when the Devs actually start working on the Romulans?
The actualyl have done this somewhat and it works pretty good.
For the fleet action "Breaking the planet" on the fed side you try to stop klingons from mining. On the Klingon side you try to defend the mining operation (i think or it is the Feds are mining your planet... either way it works).
Of course they could do just do most of the Federation romulan missions in the POV of a klingon and there would be about 25% of the total Fed content added to the Klingons for sure.
I think we will know more when season 2 hits plus all the 2. X patches. I say that because IF and I mean IF they use the 8 pve missions as seed missions for later adding more Klingon specific content then that might work as they add more factions. However, I don't have my hopes up.
Personally, my thought is Cryptic should focus solely on STO for the next year. Higher more people for development and CS and flesh out STO over the long haul. New content for all factions, bug fixes etc.
IPersonally, my thought is Cryptic should focus solely on STO for the next year. Higher more people for development and CS and flesh out STO over the long haul. New content for all factions, bug fixes etc.
Well they could if they did a review of UGC. At first I was a little against this (I envisioned an auto-leveler like "whack a chicken - get 31700 xp for completing the mission). However, if done right, it could be incorporated.
For instnace, if they gave tools out, please could develop meaningful stories and missions. From here , Cryptic could decide to incorporate these (possible some progrmamers / future developers could use for examples for other games - I rmember an articvle about that with NWN and how some coders / builders were getting picked up by gaming companies for their devleopment). I assume a compensation package would be part of the TOS of the tools if officially adopted.
In any case, would be a cheap and fast way to get valid real content, thati n all likelyhood be true to canon.
Well they could if they did a review of UGC. At first I was a little against this (I envisioned an auto-leveler like "whack a chicken - get 31700 xp for completing the mission). However, if done right, it could be incorporated.
For instnace, if they gave tools out, please could develop meaningful stories and missions. From here , Cryptic could decide to incorporate these (possible some progrmamers / future developers could use for examples for other games - I rmember an articvle about that with NWN and how some coders / builders were getting picked up by gaming companies for their devleopment). I assume a compensation package would be part of the TOS of the tools if officially adopted.
In any case, would be a cheap and fast way to get valid real content, thati n all likelyhood be true to canon.
Comments
Given enough agnostic, lateral content, players can forge their own way to cap - rather than be forced into specific path.
A compelling story can be adapted very quickly to each faction: briefings are changed to reflect the faction and possibly the boss fight is handled differently (Klingons kill him to death, Romulans cloak him to death, Federation talk him to death).
Enough lateral content over a long enough time frame means there will be content you'll never see.
Also, factions could very easily have their own starting zones (and quest) but eventually work their way into shared zones with slightly different quests. This frees Cryptic up to develop lots of lateral content that everyone can play.
Let's say the trading/mining/starbase expansion releases. All those play elements can be done faction agnostically (even starbases if you consider DS9 was actually Cardassian by design).
Have randomized missions aboard your station and you've paved a lot of content for a Ferengi or Neutral faction - allowing players to be anyone from Okana to the Grand Nagus himself.
If by that you mean "have next to nothing provided by the devs", it's starting to sound that way.
Remember, a new expansion pack means Atari may invest more capital into Cryptic - allowing more developers to assemble more content.
If that were really true, then why havent Klingons gotten their own versions of all the Fed episodes yet? Since its so "quick" to do?
There's also nothing stating that many missions weren't adapted already. Te only teasers we've seen are "from scratch" missions like the ones at the gates of Gre'thor.
However, that Romulan mission could easily be adapted to the KDF faction (it would, perhaps, need to be moved however).
Have they even bothered doing this in the STFs and the Klink missions in GO? I honestly don't know, I haven't been able to stomach getting a KDF character to LtC.
On a particular character, at least.
We'll see if they do it flexibly enough.
What I hope they don't do is make every starbase interior look the same because of it.
I'm assuming the same design principles going into our ships can be applied to starbases.
So -
The Feds would get 'Old Yeller', the story of a boy and his dog.
The Klingons would get 'Old Red', the story of a boy and his targ.
The Romulans would get 'Old Blue', the story of a boy and his set'leth.
I suppose some things are universal.
Actually, I wouldn't mind that if it were a one-off mission.
Archer and his beagle.
Worf and a targ (though I suspect Worf would eat his).
The biggest problem with this is that Cryptic is a relatively small company and they're running more than one MMO. Even though they aren't being run by the same teams those two (and the upcoming third) MMO still stretch resources and adding more factions will stretch those resources even farther. I don't really see a time when all the myriad factions of STO are as fleshed out as the Federation, especially if more keep being added. Klingons and Romulans alone are going to be stretching things as it is.
Even Blizzard with WoW, arguably -the- biggest and most profitable MMO around at the moment only has two factions in spite of player demands to add the Undead as their own faction or that Demon race from Warcraft III. Granted, they only put a mere pittance of what they make off of the game back into WoW but they're still obsessed with only having two factions, which probably says something about how difficult it is to balance more than two at a time.
What hes saying is... forget the rest... make undine ya priority!
While that may be true, the vast MAJORITY of STO players are either Fed or Klingon fans. Those are the two most popular factions by FAR. That being the case, Cryptic should completely finish those two factions(mainly the Klingons at this point) before they add another. And that will take MUCH more than just 8 episodes that they'll be getting in Season 2. Unfortunately, I have some doubts about whether they will actually do all of that before they add Romulans.
Then it sounds like some bad decisions are being made at a corporate level. Rushing out a bunch of half finished games is NOT good for a companies reputation. Taking the time to make a finished quality product, however, is. Of course, Atari may be forcing Cryptic's hand, we simply dont know.
You hit the nail right on the head and I think this falls to player demands / requests. So many people want new content.. they want this.. they want that.. they want moons that eat people (well maybe not).. I think this is a big problem. Now, I don't mind player input into the development of the game but it just seems to me that there is too much player input. To me I feel as if Cryptic really doesn't know what to do with Star Trek Online so instead of expanding what we already have, they are continuously adding stuff that isn't really needed right now.
I've always stated that the entire direction of this game has been blown out of porportion by some of the Cryptic dev team. The Klingons should not have been given to us at launch and the start of the game should have focused on the war with the Klingons and its impact on Federation space. Instead, to me, we've been given a game that appears large in size but is nothing like that at all. The Federation is facing insurmountable odds and are being threatened at every corner. I'm sorry, but considering the Federation had so much trouble against JUST the Dominion, I'm not sure they could realistically handle the Klingons AND the Romulans AND the Borg AND the Undine AND the True Way. Basically what i'm trying to say, which I'm not sure if people will understand, is that Cryptic is trying to show they're adding alot of content by making the general area of space larger (by adding more sectors / zones) but really the quantity and quality of said missions isn't that great.
One thing really made me laugh recently from an interview with Craig.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=160935&highlight=Craig&page=6
Did they not know for months prior to launch that many people wanted a PVE experience from the Klingons as well as PVP? I could be remembering incorrectly but I seem to remember people wanting that, or at least being concerned about that. Which leads me to my next question - is the community's voice properly being heard despite us being told that it is.
I don't know, I don't really count Fleet Actions or Star Clusters as proper content. Before I stopped playing STO last month I found most Fleet Actions not doable and Star Clusters don't really have any story to them especially after you do them a handful of times.
Now I don't doubt Cryptic's work ethic.. they're doing what they can with the people with they have.. but are they doing the right things and are they putting their money towards the right things? I really don't think they are, but that's my opinion. I don't really see any passion for Star Trek in this game, and simply the website alone (compared to other MMOs or just single player games).
I hate to use the word "lie", so I'll say "spin". The whole "Klingons are PvP focused" thing was spin. Klingons were originally intended to be a full faction with full PvE, just like the Feds. However, as it got closer to lauch the Devs saw they werent going to be able to deliver what they had said, someone came up with the idea that instead of actually telling us they didnt have time to finish, they would call the Klingons "PvP focused"(despite the fact that people were asking for PvE, like you just said) and make it look like they only had PvP on purpose :rolleyes:
Now that the game has launched they are trying to play catch up, and the comment you quoted is simply MORE spin to make the fact that they are just catching up on what they couldnt get in at launch look like it is actually being done in response to the community's feedback. But like you said, this SAME feedback was given back in beta
I totally agree with what you are saying. It just irks me at the thought that they are even considering a new faction right now. They need to expand what's currently in the game.. give us more planets to beam down to (and if that involves fixing ground combat so that more people like it then so be it).. I loved the ground portion but I'm not an idiot.. there are alot of people that don't like it. The whole slogan for Star Trek.. "to explore strange new worlds and new civilizations" is not even really in the game.. you can only go to three planets on the Fed side and there isn't really that much to do on them. IMO they really need to expand the ground / planet side of the game.. it'll help in making the game feel bigger in my opinion. There are tons of planets that could be added to Federation space and Klingon space (Gorn space) for more content. To me space really seems small.
For the size of company that Cryptic is, at this current time, they cannot do the Star Trek Universe justice, and despite they are claiming otherwise, they aren't going to be able to do any additional factions justice without ignoring any of the existing ones. The one that's worst off at the moment are the Klingons. They need MORE space (such as the aforementioned Gorn Space). They need more PVE, and they just plainly need more content (we won't discuss the upcoming 8 'episodes' that the Klingons are supposed to get). They need more content that makes sense. One of the things that really ****ed me off and contributed to me not playing anymore was the fact that these random nebulas were placed in Klingon space for content featuring various races (Federation, True Way, Dominion, etc) Though I could potentially think of a good RP reason why they might be there, it generally does not make any sense why these species would have been able to get so deep into Klingon territory - war or not - and maintain a continued presence there. In their earnest to give us content, there are just too many things that bother me about the content they do put in that just makes it not playable for me... i suppose it's a drawback that I'm facing since I actually care about the Star Trek Universe.
The actualyl have done this somewhat and it works pretty good.
For the fleet action "Breaking the planet" on the fed side you try to stop klingons from mining. On the Klingon side you try to defend the mining operation (i think or it is the Feds are mining your planet... either way it works).
Of course they could do just do most of the Federation romulan missions in the POV of a klingon and there would be about 25% of the total Fed content added to the Klingons for sure.
Blak
Personally, my thought is Cryptic should focus solely on STO for the next year. Higher more people for development and CS and flesh out STO over the long haul. New content for all factions, bug fixes etc.
Well they could if they did a review of UGC. At first I was a little against this (I envisioned an auto-leveler like "whack a chicken - get 31700 xp for completing the mission). However, if done right, it could be incorporated.
For instnace, if they gave tools out, please could develop meaningful stories and missions. From here , Cryptic could decide to incorporate these (possible some progrmamers / future developers could use for examples for other games - I rmember an articvle about that with NWN and how some coders / builders were getting picked up by gaming companies for their devleopment). I assume a compensation package would be part of the TOS of the tools if officially adopted.
In any case, would be a cheap and fast way to get valid real content, thati n all likelyhood be true to canon.
Blakinik
UGC is only part of the solution, I feel.