There again is a lot of unfounded supposition in this response ignoring the total of my reply, as I expected. Please review my response and address the ACTUAL issue I cite there.
Which part of your post was "the ACTUAL issue" as I was addressing your response to the game not being a Space Simulator, which is the topic that our discussion started on.
Is it the part where some players don't like 3D combat?
I've addressed that already, I've stated that I was thinking whether or not it would be possible simply to allow 3D movement for the Elite difficulty only, eliminating the players who don't like 3D Starship movement from the equation and I also stated that dstahls compromise should only go to the Advanced difficulty setting as not all players want any changes at all.
If that is possible and could be done, all issues would be solved.
So far you are indicating to me you really don't care beyond what you want in ignoring the part of the STO player community that have issues whit 3D space. Again, that is a more important financial consideration.
How can you think that I don't care about every players Starship movement choice, when I've set up a poll that allows everyone to give accurate feedback and have asked for nothing, other than the question of taking an Official poll to the entire player base which Cryptic ignored.
OK, I checked, you are right on the one point that you have not STARTED any threads on this subject before, but you are the most prolific poster in every thread on the subject. My apologies...
Here I will re-post the comments that was made in the thread I was speaking of since you don't remember:
*snip
again, sorry about the comment about you starting lots of threads on the subject, on that point I was wrong, but you are wrong in keeping this moot discussion alive.
Prolific poster, I don't actually know what that means but thanks for apologizing for the accusation you made against me.
Also, I remember all of the statements dstahl made very well, no need to repost them, I posted and highlighted his statements in post #2 in this thread.
I am not wrong in starting a discussion and a poll that allows every STO player to voice their opinion as well as vote for their choice, when Cryptic would not even make the effort to do so or attempt to explore a better compromise than what they have come up with, which really annoys me, as they have only stated what they want and not what the majority of players what, because they don't know, as they never made the effort to find out.
I will not be silenced until the majority of players have had their say and an appropriate compromise has been established.
Well as long as your smiling, that's grand, but he's not right, he just didn't understand what I was attempting to explain, maybe it's my fault for not explaining myself better.
well that could be it.
I have now lost all respect for you, btw don't ask stupid questions, and what exactly am I supposed to be arguing for?
There is no need to argue for the fact that a Starship in Star Trek or in reality could and can move in any direction, so what exactly do you want me to prove?
I wasn't ever trying to proove anything, I was just trying to explain some things to some people who don't undestand certain things.
that was meant to be a joke.
you are arguing the facts on why you should have full 360 degree movement, and why it needs to be realistic.
and explaining what to who. you are not making sense, and I believe it's because you are getting yourself confused.
added to that the post above me. ( the one about the artist ) he is right. the people at cryptic are artist. making video games is an art. would you ask a painter to repaint a painting if you didn't like it? ( only if you were funding the painting for yourself. but in this case the painter made it for everyone )
there not going to change, no matter how much you poll, and whine about it.
if this is killing the game for you, then maybe you need to look on elsewhere. not every game is going to please everyone.
I am not wrong in starting a discussion and a poll that allows every STO player to voice their opinion as well as vote for their choice, when Cryptic would not even make the effort to do so or attempt to explore a better compromise than what they have come up with, which really annoys me, as they have only stated what they want and not what the majority of players what, because they don't know, as they never made the effort to find out.
I will not be silenced until the majority of players have had their say and an appropriate compromise has been established.
Ok this is my last post, because you are off the deep end.
First Cryptic is not going to poll about 3D space combat because when they started that project they decided that it was not the game play they wanted. sure they tested it, and they didn't like it. that is there right to do as artist. you are asking them to change their work because you don't like it. if you don't like it, the adapt or move on. it's not that hard.
it is one thing to add in new ships, attacks, and missions if the player base wants it, but to change the core of the game is like asking them to remake the game. all of the complaints, and calls for 3D, that are made can be changed my adjusting the pitch of the ships.
also you are not going to get the Majority of players, because the majority of players don't even use the forums. there is a reason we are called the Loud Minority. so you will never get the full opinion of the game's population.
Anyway I'm done with this. you seem to have a few screws loose, ( I could be wrong, and it's really that you are a younger player) and you are OCDing over something the devs said they would not change.
good luck to you, and i will see you around in other topics.
That makes 55% for 3 D movement and 45% for 2D movement.
Given the average Margin of error.. +/- 10% .. that would make this issue an even split for status quo compared to changing the system..
Granted this is based on 124 votes.. howver
Changing the system would most likely lose subscriptions, especially since the pole is showing 44% wanting to keep the system as is. Given margin of error.. that would be approx 1/2 the game population.
So, changing the system would either PO 1/2 of the community and / or dive subscriptions away because the game would become unplayable to them.
Alecto, I know you like Bridge Commander.. but there is a reason it had such a very small community and no sequals.. I am quite sure the full 3D flight had something to do with that.. Heck Freelancer went the same way. Great games, but went the way of the DODO.
Now the games like Starfleet Command which uses 2D flight in 3D space based off of Starfleet Battles (at least on 3 titles) had 4 titles, all of which sold GOLD levels or better.. as such, a much higher player base.. Why.. because Starships felt like Starships and not a fighter sim.
Face it.. so far, the numbers from your poll do not justify changing the system as it is.. Now like I stated.. if 95% came back and stated they wanted 360 degree movement, then I am sure Cryptic would take notics and maybe want to change things.. but with 50% of the current player base (as seen by the poll using a sample of 124 players) .. there is no reason for Cryptic to even look at the movement system, except maybe tweaking a few of the flight features.
You ran the poll.. the numbers don't lie.. changing the system would PO 1/2 of the player base.
Personally, I would really like to see full, unrestricted movement. It was one of the things I thought really hurt Legacy, (among many others,) but I am pleased with the compromises the devs are making.
(I don't have a whole lot to add to this conversation, I'm just putting my opinion out there.)
Some of the people here think this poll shows that a majority want this in STO. What it actually shows, is the majority of people that read the forums and have not accepted the fact that Cryptic said no, are still begging for something that most likely will never come to pass. Cryptic said they did testing on this feature, either internally or in a closed focus group they have not said. Really when it comes down to it, the decision is theirs. Now I'm not saying this is necessarily right or even a good thing, it is simply the way things are right now.
I am fairly happy with the ship movement mechanics as they are now. I am defintally excited for the increased pitch. Sure I would love for them to go one step further and just unlock movement all together. When it comes down to it, this is an MMO. Comprises have to be made in terms of appealing to everyone, balancing the game, and still making it fun for people. There have been numerous ways listed already on this topic of how unrestricted flight could be abused in PvP, and how some people would be unable to grasp the mechanics.
Either way, I'll take what I get and be happy with it. Current flight mechanics, increased pitch, or the highly improbable unrestricted format. It is not about being a pessimist or optimist or realist, to me it is simply about making the best of the situation. Cryptic said "NO" in no uncertain terms. They tested it, it did not work. I think it is time to just let it go.
Yes I would love full flight ability, but I am ok with what we have. Maybe people need to stop focusing on what they want and trying to make it out so they are the "majority" and just accept something that is outside the realm of possible change.
If you want 3D Starship movement, why didn't you vote, and don't just say only the minority of forum users will vote here because I will see to it that many many players vote here and it's only been live for less than 24 hours, i opened the poll last night.
Maybe you should have read this thread before posting, check post #2 and don't waste my time.
That was quite rude!
Sadly, though, I ignored that rainbow fest of text coloring. I am of a professional school of thought that causes me to reflexively ignore brightly colored texts. its just bad practices in communication. Official Cryptic representatives do not used excessively colored texts. /shrug, my brain rejected it. That is the hazard of my profession.
Regardless, I'm out of here. I'll only stay in a discussion up to one spiteful remark directed at myself or until I figure out whether a person actually wants to have a conversation. Usually they both happen at the same time... OPOCD aside.
Not reading the the thread is also "quite" rude, and many others are extremely rude, but all I stated was don't waste my time and you still do.
Tbh the amount of rude posts in this thread by certain posters really boils my blood, especially when they think and presume they know how others think and don't take the time to understand simple explinations, then reply completely out of context because they didn't understand instead of asking for a better explination first, etc.
If you want 3D Starship movement, why didn't you vote, and don't just say only the minority of forum users will vote here because I will see to it that many many players vote here and it's only been live for less than 24 hours, i opened the poll last night.
You still won't get what you want. There has only been one other case, that I know of, where Cryptic gave a definite NO and that was the skill cap issue. Considering they already said NO in the case of full 3D, and they have also said they are willing to compromise with -/+ 85 you are walking up hill in the snow.
Full 3D does not reflect the combat style that Star Trek, typically exhibits.
One other thing, this isn't an official poll so I doubt they will pay it much attention.
The reason this thread exists is to determine which Starship movement system the majority of players would like to use in Star Trek Online, it's very simple as well as very fair to everyone, and Cryptic will not create a poll, so I have.
All you have to do as a player is answer the question as truthfully as possible, just thinking of yourself and no one else.
I have to go do some painting now, but I'll be back in about an hour, and everyone is entitled to voice their opinions and make a choice, so everyone is entitled to take part in the poll, which will hopefully result in accurate feedback.
Regards,
Alecto
Doesn't really matter because it's not going to change what they've already said they will and will not do.
Do I know how to understand and listen to what the devs are saying? Yes. Apparently you do not.
Well you obviously don't listen and understand my posts, I've stated a number of time that I have read and acknowledged as well as understood what the Devs have stated in their posts.
I've also quoted everything dstahl posted in the other thread for all to read and stated that Cryptic won't make the effort to ask the STO community what they want on this topic so I have made the effort.
You know why, because it's fair and it's the right thing to do before you make a decision for thousands of people, rather than what Cryptic have done by stating that THEY do not want 3D Starship movement, Cryptic has not bothered to ask the community what they want and have just say no.
Now don't presume that I don't understand or listen, as i have listened and understood exactly what they are doing better than you.
I have also given everyone the opportunity to vote and come up with at least two ideas to compromise a better system then Cryptic has.
It is an artistic distinction that makes space combat in Star Trek look like tall ships combat.
We have discussed options for more pitch or even z axis movement - but it is a firm decision that we will not allow inverted flight for Star Trek Starships .
You know why, because it's fair and it's the right thing to do before you make a decision for thousands of people, rather than what Cryptic have done by stating that THEY do not want 3D Starship movement, Cryptic has not bothered to ask the community what they want and have just say no.
Which is their right.. They own the game, they own the code, they own the servers, CBS owns the IP, CBS has to give permissions, etc.
That we the community have a say over anything except balance is a godsend and cryptic is doing right by us.. however you seem to be on a crusade for someting that will never happen.. it is like climbing a non existant ladder to heaven.
Cryptic has creative control of STO.. they like the classic feel of Trek as based on the TV series (with the TV firmly mounted right side up and bolted to the concrete floor)..
That is the same feeling from Starfleet Battles, the same feeling in Starfleet Command, and the same feeling they are giving in STO.
why try to alter what is tried and true.. why destroy the feeling?
The TV series, and many, many games all contain the Trek feel, not a Freelancer feel like Bridge Commander. Many games have had sequals and expansions.. Bridge Commander didn't.
so going by the gaming models of the past on space flight movement in a Trek Title :
SFC game series.. 4 titles, all Gold sales rating
Bridge Commander... 1 title, Silver sales rating
Now is CBS and Cryptic are looking at playability models from the other games that came before.. which one do you think they will model after?
STO is extremely close in combat and movement and even ship upgrades and shileding systems to SFC 3.. There is little to no symbalance to Bridge Commander.
Do you get the point?
the flight movement in SFC is what is approved by CBS / Paramount / SFB / Viacom.
The flight Movement in Bridge Commander is what Paramount allowed on the TNG trek license as based on the movies.
the Maneuvewrs that they do in Trek are special maneuvers that happen very, very rarely.
As such, I have to agree with STO keeping the traditional Trek feeling.. too many successful titles has had the same movement system.. thus a larger player base to work with.
Prolific poster, I don't actually know what that means but thanks for apologizing for the accusation you made against me.
Also, I remember all of the statements dstahl made very well, no need to repost them, I posted and highlighted his statements in post #2 in this thread.
I am not wrong in starting a discussion and a poll that allows every STO player to voice their opinion as well as vote for their choice, when Cryptic would not even make the effort to do so or attempt to explore a better compromise than what they have come up with, which really annoys me, as they have only stated what they want and not what the majority of players what, because they don't know, as they never made the effort to find out.
I will not be silenced until the majority of players have had their say and an appropriate compromise has been established.
Actually if you read the posts I quoted, you would realize that you are wrong in starting a discussion and a poll on the subject, here, I will post it again for your benefit:
Originally Posted by dstahl
Auto-plane correction is already in the game - when you bank and release control - it auto-corrects. Allowing starships to fly inverted is not going to happen in STO - this has been discussed since before Beta - and we have plenty of reasons why allowing players to purposly fly inverted is not happening.
Does that mean we're not listening? Sure we are - and we hope you are listening too.
We are looking into different ideas such as those I mentioend - maneauvers such as immelmans, rolls, etc that you click and execute (ie you do not fly the immelman - you click a button and it does it) - or even the possibility of allowing you to come to a stop and use thrusters to do a straight up or down Z axis move.
We spent a lot of time on space combat mechanics and we are happy with where they are at - they give space combat the feel we were shooting for.
So in the future - yes - we may allow some sort of pre-set maneuaver - or possibly greater pitch range - so focus ideas in those areas instead of focusing on allowing inverted flight.
if you read the colored text you will plainly see that dstahl asked for people to focus their discussions in a productive manner (i.e. on the items they would consider changing, not on allowing inverted flight.
They have made the effort for a compromise (85 degree movement and the possibility of keyed flight deviations). Yes, they are flight deviations, unnecessary for gameplay
Some people just never learned what the word NO means, they said no to 360 degree flight. I'm not going to hunt for the post where it was stated that they tried the full flight sim on test subjects and they did not approve of the way it looked or felt, they have stated exactly what they would consider and what exactly will not be considered, your 100 person poll will not change that, considering the tens of thousands of players that are happily playing the game as it is while we pointlessly argue about what 100 people in the forums want. Also consider that voting is not tied to IP address, I have voted 3 times already, your poll is an absolute joke
100 people are not a majority it is a drop in the bucket.
And I guess you just glossed over the fact that an older audience will not deal well with the change from Star Trek style flight to an acrobatic flight sim. Do you want people to leave because they would be physically unable to handle the motion? Doesn't sound like someone who is acting in the best interest of the group.
I won't discuss it on the forums, but if you need help finding a game that is more of a flight simulator than a Star Trek styled "tall ships" flight style, PM me and I can give you a dozen or so suggestions on the topic.
Doesn't really matter because it's not going to change what they've already said they will and will not do.
So you honestly think that Cryptic will ignore a majority vote as well as the votes for their proposed changes as well as the votes for no changes?
Your another time waster, another closed mind, another person who believes that once someone states no, they can not changes their mind.
Even though Phoxe stated numerous times that the DP would not work optionally and then they changed their mind stating that they had made it optional. They also listen to everyone else on every subject they care about, they obviously care about this topic to a degree, but not enough to make the effort to get accurate user feedback from the STO community player base.
Even though Phoxe stated numerous times that the DP would not work optionally and then they changed their mind stating that they had made it optional.
Actually, his statement is correct. It is tied to the difficulty slider. Technically, they didn't remove it from normal setting. All they did was set an integer that determines whether an injury takes place from some small figure like .000001 to 0. That's not removing it per say, it's changing one figure.
So you honestly think that Cryptic will ignore a majority vote as well as the votes for their proposed changes as well as the votes for no changes?
A majority of what? Less than 10% of the player base actually post on the forums. That's partially why they came up with that lame council idea. This isn't Falcon 4.0, this isn't Star Wars, this isn't even Ace Combat. It's Star Trek where the majority of ships don't do the things you keep asking for.
So my original point still stands, that if the majority of players want something, the Devs consistently state that they will make it so or find a reasonable compromise
They have made a reasonable compromise. The man told you he is putting the 85 degree pitch angle into the works and possibly adding in "click manuerving".
Have you even considered that it is CBS behind this decision by Cryptic and you are barking up the wrong tree?
No I haven't considered that, I would suggest that evidence from posts from teh STO Dev team suggest that it has nothing to do with CBS at all, as dstahl specifically stated that "we" do not want 3D Starship movement.
Which I personally believe is the worst thing he has ever posted in these forums, this is the only topic I know of that they have not made any effort to get feedback from teh player base before making a decision.
if you read the colored text you will plainly see that dstahl asked for people to focus their discussions in a productive manner (i.e. on the items they would consider changing, not on allowing inverted flight.
They have made the effort for a compromise (85 degree movement and the possibility of keyed flight deviations). Yes, they are flight deviations, unnecessary for gameplay
That's what they want, he attemted to eliminate any opposing force and ignore every opposing voice, no effort made to ask the player base for their feedback.
Also consider that voting is not tied to IP address, I have voted 3 times already, your poll is an absolute joke
100 people are not a majority it is a drop in the bucket.
Have you been changing your IP address, because the poll won't allow the same IP address to vote more than once, I thought you said you were a mature 40 something year old?
Now your talking like a cheating and scheming child, breaking a valid poll that was made to allow a fair vote from all players.
Also, sure the poll only has just over a hundred votes, but that will change over time and after i get the word out.
You can make it easy for me and tell me which votes of yours are not-valid, or I can do it the hard way, or are you scared something might come out of this poll, is that why your attempting to sabotage the results.
You make me sick and would not be worthy of joining Starfleet if it existed.
I guess you just glossed over the fact that an older audience will not deal well with the change from Star Trek style flight to an acrobatic flight sim. Do you want people to leave because they would be physically unable to handle the motion? Doesn't sound like someone who is acting in the best interest of the group.
I've already come up with a solution for that, are you not reading the previous posts?
I won't discuss it on the forums, but if you need help finding a game that is more of a flight simulator than a Star Trek styled "tall ships" flight style, PM me and I can give you a dozen or so suggestions on the topic.
I will continue to play Star Trek bridge Commander until STO has a 3D Starship movement system.
You are starting off with flawed reasoning which could invalidate any conclusions you might come to with the poll.
People who vote in your poll will be:
a subset (only a portion) of those who decide to click the link to an unofficial poll.
those will be a subset of the people who read this thread.
those will be a subset of forum visitors.
those will be a subset of site visitors.
those will be a subset of STO players and non-players who still follow the game/new developments.
the people who vote in your poll will in no way be a "majority of STO players". You continue to express this view in other posts as well.
I know your intent is not to mislead or come to erronous conclusions, so it would probably be helpful to get yourself into the mindset of "majority of poll respondants want xxxxxx" rather than "majority of STO players want xxxxx". It may seem minor, but this type of phrasing error can detract significantly from any credibility you may try to attain with the poll results.
The reason this thread exists is to determine which Starship movement system the majority of players would like to use in Star Trek Online, it's very simple as well as very fair to everyone, and Cryptic will not create a poll, so I have.
All you have to do as a player is answer the question as truthfully as possible, just thinking of yourself and no one else.
I have to go do some painting now, but I'll be back in about an hour, and everyone is entitled to voice their opinions and make a choice, so everyone is entitled to take part in the poll, which will hopefully result in accurate feedback.
Which part of your post was "the ACTUAL issue" as I was addressing your response to the game not being a Space Simulator, which is the topic that our discussion started on.
Is it the part where some players don't like 3D combat?
I've addressed that already, I've stated that I was thinking whether or not it would be possible simply to allow 3D movement for the Elite difficulty only, eliminating the players who don't like 3D Starship movement from the equation and I also stated that dstahls compromise should only go to the Advanced difficulty setting as not all players want any changes at all.
If that is possible and could be done, all issues would be solved.
How can you think that I don't care about every players Starship movement choice, when I've set up a poll that allows everyone to give accurate feedback and have asked for nothing, other than the question of taking an Official poll to the entire player base which Cryptic ignored.
Prolific poster, I don't actually know what that means but thanks for apologizing for the accusation you made against me.
Also, I remember all of the statements dstahl made very well, no need to repost them, I posted and highlighted his statements in post #2 in this thread.
I am not wrong in starting a discussion and a poll that allows every STO player to voice their opinion as well as vote for their choice, when Cryptic would not even make the effort to do so or attempt to explore a better compromise than what they have come up with, which really annoys me, as they have only stated what they want and not what the majority of players what, because they don't know, as they never made the effort to find out.
I will not be silenced until the majority of players have had their say and an appropriate compromise has been established.
Also, the second post of the thread rather makes the poll seem pointless, as it points out what Cryptic will NOT do and what things they are already doing or may look into.
Even though Phoxe stated numerous times that the DP would not work optionally and then they changed their mind stating that they had made it optional.
Wrong.. Phoxe stated the DP was optional
People interpretation of Optional was based on 1 definition of the work Optional, not considering the other definitions available in an unabridged dictionary.
Cryptics definition of Optional was the Option to select the level of the DP.. not the ability to turn DP on and off.
there was originally no option for DP as based on the State of the Game from Feb. 25, 2010.. They suprised us stating the DP would be optional.
even now Cryptics definition of Optional has not changed.. You still have 3 levels of DP to choose from (options) Normal Mode with no DP, Advanced mode with light DP and Elite mode with heavy DP.
Cryptic still has not given a switch to turn DP on and off.. as such, it is still their original design disguised to please the community.
so Cryptic was using definition #2 of the word Optional, which is to give multiple selections of a thing.. which is what they have done 2 times with the DP, one variation of a selection to appease the community as a compromise..
However they stayed True to their word every step of the way.
If you did not know multiple definitions of the word Optional, that is your own failure for Reading Comprehension, not cryptics failure for not inculding an on/off switch for the DP.
Cryptics Optional DP was the option of Severity.. it was stated clearly by Phoxe in the leong thread about the DP.
People still don't have a choice on DP.. they have a choice on the difficulty level which in turn adjusts the severity of the DP.. there is no ON/Off switch (thank goodness)..
So Cryptic stayed true to their design while making the player base happy with the Normal mode.
Same will happen with the movement system.. the system will not change, however they will tweak the movement system in place to make the community happy.. that means no 3D or 360 degree movement, but 2D movement with some effects thrown in every once in a while.
'Optional' Death Penalties don't really work. That's why none exist in any game I'm aware of currently. We had hopes that we could make something unique, which we did. Unfortunately, the injury system we came up with is not optional, but it is negligible for the average user.
I know your intent is not to mislead or come to erronous conclusions, so it would probably be helpful to get yourself into the mindset of "majority of poll respondants want xxxxxx" rather than "majority of STO players want xxxxx". It may seem minor, but this type of phrasing error can detract significantly from any credibility you may try to attain with the poll results.
THIS!
Seriously, though... well, put! You are not giving yourself enough credit when you say this is a minor thing. It is not minor at all, but the primary consideration in anything Cryptic has to consider with this game because, first and foremost, Star Trek is nothing more than a set of legal media cotnracts, licenses, copyrights, etc whose primry function is to generate monetary profits for the party/parties that own it.
The real reason for doing anything on STO must be "what will bring in the best, most stable and most growing revenue from the mass subscriber base." Not what may "make sense" to a relatively small number of very vocal players or what was voted for by the majority of a hundred or two hundred people who voted for in unofficial poll on the forums.
Alecto, why don't you post a few video clips from a Star Trek show or feature film that shows an extended battle sequence where two ships are fighting each other inverted?
I'm not talking about a 5 second "full axis rotation to port" clip or the Defiant doing it's barrel roll over the Lakota. Those are "COOL!" clips put in for the "WOW!" factor.
Show the developers an overwhelming precedence from a canon Trek source that ships fought each other inverted under normal conditions. That might get them to change their mind on their artistic interpretation of how combat works.
CRYPTIC COMPLETELY REMOVED THE DP FROM THE NORMAL DIFFICULTY SETTING!
Wrong again.. they just adjusted the chance of gaining an injury from .00001 to 0.00000.. the DP is not removed.. Cryptic can easily change 1 variable and have the DP reinstated to Normal mode.
Also DP is not Optional.. there is no ON / Off switch.. the option is the variation of the sevarity as based upon the difficulty level.. there is no Optioan DP in STO that means On / OFF.. there is the Option of Severity where Normal Mode has a 0.00 chance of getting an injury.
Comments
Which part of your post was "the ACTUAL issue" as I was addressing your response to the game not being a Space Simulator, which is the topic that our discussion started on.
Is it the part where some players don't like 3D combat?
I've addressed that already, I've stated that I was thinking whether or not it would be possible simply to allow 3D movement for the Elite difficulty only, eliminating the players who don't like 3D Starship movement from the equation and I also stated that dstahls compromise should only go to the Advanced difficulty setting as not all players want any changes at all.
If that is possible and could be done, all issues would be solved.
How can you think that I don't care about every players Starship movement choice, when I've set up a poll that allows everyone to give accurate feedback and have asked for nothing, other than the question of taking an Official poll to the entire player base which Cryptic ignored.
Prolific poster, I don't actually know what that means but thanks for apologizing for the accusation you made against me.
Also, I remember all of the statements dstahl made very well, no need to repost them, I posted and highlighted his statements in post #2 in this thread.
I am not wrong in starting a discussion and a poll that allows every STO player to voice their opinion as well as vote for their choice, when Cryptic would not even make the effort to do so or attempt to explore a better compromise than what they have come up with, which really annoys me, as they have only stated what they want and not what the majority of players what, because they don't know, as they never made the effort to find out.
I will not be silenced until the majority of players have had their say and an appropriate compromise has been established.
that was meant to be a joke.
you are arguing the facts on why you should have full 360 degree movement, and why it needs to be realistic.
and explaining what to who. you are not making sense, and I believe it's because you are getting yourself confused.
added to that the post above me. ( the one about the artist ) he is right. the people at cryptic are artist. making video games is an art. would you ask a painter to repaint a painting if you didn't like it? ( only if you were funding the painting for yourself. but in this case the painter made it for everyone )
there not going to change, no matter how much you poll, and whine about it.
if this is killing the game for you, then maybe you need to look on elsewhere. not every game is going to please everyone.
Maybe you should have read this thread before posting, check post #2 and don't waste my time.
Ok this is my last post, because you are off the deep end.
First Cryptic is not going to poll about 3D space combat because when they started that project they decided that it was not the game play they wanted. sure they tested it, and they didn't like it. that is there right to do as artist. you are asking them to change their work because you don't like it. if you don't like it, the adapt or move on. it's not that hard.
it is one thing to add in new ships, attacks, and missions if the player base wants it, but to change the core of the game is like asking them to remake the game. all of the complaints, and calls for 3D, that are made can be changed my adjusting the pitch of the ships.
also you are not going to get the Majority of players, because the majority of players don't even use the forums. there is a reason we are called the Loud Minority. so you will never get the full opinion of the game's population.
Anyway I'm done with this. you seem to have a few screws loose, ( I could be wrong, and it's really that you are a younger player) and you are OCDing over something the devs said they would not change.
good luck to you, and i will see you around in other topics.
68 for 3D movement
56 for D2 movement
That makes 55% for 3 D movement and 45% for 2D movement.
Given the average Margin of error.. +/- 10% .. that would make this issue an even split for status quo compared to changing the system..
Granted this is based on 124 votes.. howver
Changing the system would most likely lose subscriptions, especially since the pole is showing 44% wanting to keep the system as is. Given margin of error.. that would be approx 1/2 the game population.
So, changing the system would either PO 1/2 of the community and / or dive subscriptions away because the game would become unplayable to them.
Alecto, I know you like Bridge Commander.. but there is a reason it had such a very small community and no sequals.. I am quite sure the full 3D flight had something to do with that.. Heck Freelancer went the same way. Great games, but went the way of the DODO.
Now the games like Starfleet Command which uses 2D flight in 3D space based off of Starfleet Battles (at least on 3 titles) had 4 titles, all of which sold GOLD levels or better.. as such, a much higher player base.. Why.. because Starships felt like Starships and not a fighter sim.
Face it.. so far, the numbers from your poll do not justify changing the system as it is.. Now like I stated.. if 95% came back and stated they wanted 360 degree movement, then I am sure Cryptic would take notics and maybe want to change things.. but with 50% of the current player base (as seen by the poll using a sample of 124 players) .. there is no reason for Cryptic to even look at the movement system, except maybe tweaking a few of the flight features.
You ran the poll.. the numbers don't lie.. changing the system would PO 1/2 of the player base.
Personally, I would really like to see full, unrestricted movement. It was one of the things I thought really hurt Legacy, (among many others,) but I am pleased with the compromises the devs are making.
(I don't have a whole lot to add to this conversation, I'm just putting my opinion out there.)
Some of the people here think this poll shows that a majority want this in STO. What it actually shows, is the majority of people that read the forums and have not accepted the fact that Cryptic said no, are still begging for something that most likely will never come to pass. Cryptic said they did testing on this feature, either internally or in a closed focus group they have not said. Really when it comes down to it, the decision is theirs. Now I'm not saying this is necessarily right or even a good thing, it is simply the way things are right now.
I am fairly happy with the ship movement mechanics as they are now. I am defintally excited for the increased pitch. Sure I would love for them to go one step further and just unlock movement all together. When it comes down to it, this is an MMO. Comprises have to be made in terms of appealing to everyone, balancing the game, and still making it fun for people. There have been numerous ways listed already on this topic of how unrestricted flight could be abused in PvP, and how some people would be unable to grasp the mechanics.
Either way, I'll take what I get and be happy with it. Current flight mechanics, increased pitch, or the highly improbable unrestricted format. It is not about being a pessimist or optimist or realist, to me it is simply about making the best of the situation. Cryptic said "NO" in no uncertain terms. They tested it, it did not work. I think it is time to just let it go.
Yes I would love full flight ability, but I am ok with what we have. Maybe people need to stop focusing on what they want and trying to make it out so they are the "majority" and just accept something that is outside the realm of possible change.
If you want 3D Starship movement, why didn't you vote, and don't just say only the minority of forum users will vote here because I will see to it that many many players vote here and it's only been live for less than 24 hours, i opened the poll last night.
That was quite rude!
Sadly, though, I ignored that rainbow fest of text coloring. I am of a professional school of thought that causes me to reflexively ignore brightly colored texts. its just bad practices in communication. Official Cryptic representatives do not used excessively colored texts. /shrug, my brain rejected it. That is the hazard of my profession.
Regardless, I'm out of here. I'll only stay in a discussion up to one spiteful remark directed at myself or until I figure out whether a person actually wants to have a conversation. Usually they both happen at the same time... OPOCD aside.
Not reading the the thread is also "quite" rude, and many others are extremely rude, but all I stated was don't waste my time and you still do.
Tbh the amount of rude posts in this thread by certain posters really boils my blood, especially when they think and presume they know how others think and don't take the time to understand simple explinations, then reply completely out of context because they didn't understand instead of asking for a better explination first, etc.
You still won't get what you want. There has only been one other case, that I know of, where Cryptic gave a definite NO and that was the skill cap issue. Considering they already said NO in the case of full 3D, and they have also said they are willing to compromise with -/+ 85 you are walking up hill in the snow.
Full 3D does not reflect the combat style that Star Trek, typically exhibits.
One other thing, this isn't an official poll so I doubt they will pay it much attention.
What are you, Psychic, can you see into the future?
Post something other than a guess or don't post at all.
You do realize you're doing the same, right?
Quote my presumptions and statements telling you how you think.
I will post when I damn well please.
Psychic? No. Do I know how to understand and listen to what the devs are saying? Yes. Apparently you do not.
Doesn't really matter because it's not going to change what they've already said they will and will not do.
Well you obviously don't listen and understand my posts, I've stated a number of time that I have read and acknowledged as well as understood what the Devs have stated in their posts.
I've also quoted everything dstahl posted in the other thread for all to read and stated that Cryptic won't make the effort to ask the STO community what they want on this topic so I have made the effort.
You know why, because it's fair and it's the right thing to do before you make a decision for thousands of people, rather than what Cryptic have done by stating that THEY do not want 3D Starship movement, Cryptic has not bothered to ask the community what they want and have just say no.
Now don't presume that I don't understand or listen, as i have listened and understood exactly what they are doing better than you.
I have also given everyone the opportunity to vote and come up with at least two ideas to compromise a better system then Cryptic has.
Granted...
Have you even considered that it is CBS behind this decision by Cryptic and you are barking up the wrong tree?
Which is their right.. They own the game, they own the code, they own the servers, CBS owns the IP, CBS has to give permissions, etc.
That we the community have a say over anything except balance is a godsend and cryptic is doing right by us.. however you seem to be on a crusade for someting that will never happen.. it is like climbing a non existant ladder to heaven.
Cryptic has creative control of STO.. they like the classic feel of Trek as based on the TV series (with the TV firmly mounted right side up and bolted to the concrete floor)..
That is the same feeling from Starfleet Battles, the same feeling in Starfleet Command, and the same feeling they are giving in STO.
why try to alter what is tried and true.. why destroy the feeling?
The TV series, and many, many games all contain the Trek feel, not a Freelancer feel like Bridge Commander. Many games have had sequals and expansions.. Bridge Commander didn't.
so going by the gaming models of the past on space flight movement in a Trek Title :
SFC game series.. 4 titles, all Gold sales rating
Bridge Commander... 1 title, Silver sales rating
Now is CBS and Cryptic are looking at playability models from the other games that came before.. which one do you think they will model after?
STO is extremely close in combat and movement and even ship upgrades and shileding systems to SFC 3.. There is little to no symbalance to Bridge Commander.
Do you get the point?
the flight movement in SFC is what is approved by CBS / Paramount / SFB / Viacom.
The flight Movement in Bridge Commander is what Paramount allowed on the TNG trek license as based on the movies.
the Maneuvewrs that they do in Trek are special maneuvers that happen very, very rarely.
As such, I have to agree with STO keeping the traditional Trek feeling.. too many successful titles has had the same movement system.. thus a larger player base to work with.
Actually if you read the posts I quoted, you would realize that you are wrong in starting a discussion and a poll on the subject, here, I will post it again for your benefit:
Originally Posted by dstahl
Auto-plane correction is already in the game - when you bank and release control - it auto-corrects. Allowing starships to fly inverted is not going to happen in STO - this has been discussed since before Beta - and we have plenty of reasons why allowing players to purposly fly inverted is not happening.
Does that mean we're not listening? Sure we are - and we hope you are listening too.
We are looking into different ideas such as those I mentioend - maneauvers such as immelmans, rolls, etc that you click and execute (ie you do not fly the immelman - you click a button and it does it) - or even the possibility of allowing you to come to a stop and use thrusters to do a straight up or down Z axis move.
We spent a lot of time on space combat mechanics and we are happy with where they are at - they give space combat the feel we were shooting for.
So in the future - yes - we may allow some sort of pre-set maneuaver - or possibly greater pitch range - so focus ideas in those areas instead of focusing on allowing inverted flight.
if you read the colored text you will plainly see that dstahl asked for people to focus their discussions in a productive manner (i.e. on the items they would consider changing, not on allowing inverted flight.
They have made the effort for a compromise (85 degree movement and the possibility of keyed flight deviations). Yes, they are flight deviations, unnecessary for gameplay
Some people just never learned what the word NO means, they said no to 360 degree flight. I'm not going to hunt for the post where it was stated that they tried the full flight sim on test subjects and they did not approve of the way it looked or felt, they have stated exactly what they would consider and what exactly will not be considered, your 100 person poll will not change that, considering the tens of thousands of players that are happily playing the game as it is while we pointlessly argue about what 100 people in the forums want. Also consider that voting is not tied to IP address, I have voted 3 times already, your poll is an absolute joke
100 people are not a majority it is a drop in the bucket.
And I guess you just glossed over the fact that an older audience will not deal well with the change from Star Trek style flight to an acrobatic flight sim. Do you want people to leave because they would be physically unable to handle the motion? Doesn't sound like someone who is acting in the best interest of the group.
I won't discuss it on the forums, but if you need help finding a game that is more of a flight simulator than a Star Trek styled "tall ships" flight style, PM me and I can give you a dozen or so suggestions on the topic.
So you honestly think that Cryptic will ignore a majority vote as well as the votes for their proposed changes as well as the votes for no changes?
Your another time waster, another closed mind, another person who believes that once someone states no, they can not changes their mind.
Even though Phoxe stated numerous times that the DP would not work optionally and then they changed their mind stating that they had made it optional. They also listen to everyone else on every subject they care about, they obviously care about this topic to a degree, but not enough to make the effort to get accurate user feedback from the STO community player base.
Actually, his statement is correct. It is tied to the difficulty slider. Technically, they didn't remove it from normal setting. All they did was set an integer that determines whether an injury takes place from some small figure like .000001 to 0. That's not removing it per say, it's changing one figure.
A majority of what? Less than 10% of the player base actually post on the forums. That's partially why they came up with that lame council idea. This isn't Falcon 4.0, this isn't Star Wars, this isn't even Ace Combat. It's Star Trek where the majority of ships don't do the things you keep asking for.
They have made a reasonable compromise. The man told you he is putting the 85 degree pitch angle into the works and possibly adding in "click manuerving".
No I haven't considered that, I would suggest that evidence from posts from teh STO Dev team suggest that it has nothing to do with CBS at all, as dstahl specifically stated that "we" do not want 3D Starship movement.
Which I personally believe is the worst thing he has ever posted in these forums, this is the only topic I know of that they have not made any effort to get feedback from teh player base before making a decision.
That's what they want, he attemted to eliminate any opposing force and ignore every opposing voice, no effort made to ask the player base for their feedback.
Have you been changing your IP address, because the poll won't allow the same IP address to vote more than once, I thought you said you were a mature 40 something year old?
Now your talking like a cheating and scheming child, breaking a valid poll that was made to allow a fair vote from all players.
Also, sure the poll only has just over a hundred votes, but that will change over time and after i get the word out.
You can make it easy for me and tell me which votes of yours are not-valid, or I can do it the hard way, or are you scared something might come out of this poll, is that why your attempting to sabotage the results.
You make me sick and would not be worthy of joining Starfleet if it existed.
I've already come up with a solution for that, are you not reading the previous posts?
I will continue to play Star Trek bridge Commander until STO has a 3D Starship movement system.
People who vote in your poll will be:
a subset (only a portion) of those who decide to click the link to an unofficial poll.
those will be a subset of the people who read this thread.
those will be a subset of forum visitors.
those will be a subset of site visitors.
those will be a subset of STO players and non-players who still follow the game/new developments.
the people who vote in your poll will in no way be a "majority of STO players". You continue to express this view in other posts as well.
I know your intent is not to mislead or come to erronous conclusions, so it would probably be helpful to get yourself into the mindset of "majority of poll respondants want xxxxxx" rather than "majority of STO players want xxxxx". It may seem minor, but this type of phrasing error can detract significantly from any credibility you may try to attain with the poll results.
Also, the second post of the thread rather makes the poll seem pointless, as it points out what Cryptic will NOT do and what things they are already doing or may look into.
Wrong.. Phoxe stated the DP was optional
People interpretation of Optional was based on 1 definition of the work Optional, not considering the other definitions available in an unabridged dictionary.
Cryptics definition of Optional was the Option to select the level of the DP.. not the ability to turn DP on and off.
there was originally no option for DP as based on the State of the Game from Feb. 25, 2010.. They suprised us stating the DP would be optional.
even now Cryptics definition of Optional has not changed.. You still have 3 levels of DP to choose from (options) Normal Mode with no DP, Advanced mode with light DP and Elite mode with heavy DP.
Cryptic still has not given a switch to turn DP on and off.. as such, it is still their original design disguised to please the community.
so Cryptic was using definition #2 of the word Optional, which is to give multiple selections of a thing.. which is what they have done 2 times with the DP, one variation of a selection to appease the community as a compromise..
However they stayed True to their word every step of the way.
If you did not know multiple definitions of the word Optional, that is your own failure for Reading Comprehension, not cryptics failure for not inculding an on/off switch for the DP.
Cryptics Optional DP was the option of Severity.. it was stated clearly by Phoxe in the leong thread about the DP.
People still don't have a choice on DP.. they have a choice on the difficulty level which in turn adjusts the severity of the DP.. there is no ON/Off switch (thank goodness)..
So Cryptic stayed true to their design while making the player base happy with the Normal mode.
Same will happen with the movement system.. the system will not change, however they will tweak the movement system in place to make the community happy.. that means no 3D or 360 degree movement, but 2D movement with some effects thrown in every once in a while.
CRYPTIC COMPLETELY REMOVED THE DP FROM THE NORMAL DIFFICULTY SETTING!
The poll has only recently started, it will take time but I will ensure that this poll receives a large number of votes.
For themselves yes they have, but not for every player who wants the freedom of a full realistic Star Trek 3D Starship movement system.
Some of you are really are annoying...
Quoted from HERE.
THIS!
Seriously, though... well, put! You are not giving yourself enough credit when you say this is a minor thing. It is not minor at all, but the primary consideration in anything Cryptic has to consider with this game because, first and foremost, Star Trek is nothing more than a set of legal media cotnracts, licenses, copyrights, etc whose primry function is to generate monetary profits for the party/parties that own it.
The real reason for doing anything on STO must be "what will bring in the best, most stable and most growing revenue from the mass subscriber base." Not what may "make sense" to a relatively small number of very vocal players or what was voted for by the majority of a hundred or two hundred people who voted for in unofficial poll on the forums.
Anyway, well put, Pdt.
I'm not talking about a 5 second "full axis rotation to port" clip or the Defiant doing it's barrel roll over the Lakota. Those are "COOL!" clips put in for the "WOW!" factor.
Show the developers an overwhelming precedence from a canon Trek source that ships fought each other inverted under normal conditions. That might get them to change their mind on their artistic interpretation of how combat works.
Good luck doing in finding them too.
Man.. some people fail at using the forums.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=2428899&postcount=488
Reading comprehension for the win.
Wrong again.. they just adjusted the chance of gaining an injury from .00001 to 0.00000.. the DP is not removed.. Cryptic can easily change 1 variable and have the DP reinstated to Normal mode.
Also DP is not Optional.. there is no ON / Off switch.. the option is the variation of the sevarity as based upon the difficulty level.. there is no Optioan DP in STO that means On / OFF.. there is the Option of Severity where Normal Mode has a 0.00 chance of getting an injury.