I'm not pessimistic. I'm just cynical. I never believe marketing. I don't trust it, and I never will.
No intelligent person should trust marketing. The whole purpose of the profession is to bamboozle you into thinking you want something that you probably really don't. Stuff that you really do want doesn't need to be marketed to you, you will buy it anyway.
Marketing can have a strong influence on the weak minded.
What Cryptic should have done is announce that there will be a Player council, and to start nominating players and forum members for the position. Forum members and players interested in being on the council will naturally compaign to gain a spot... since they care so much for the game. Inevitably, certain forum members and players will gain a following and support, through their choosen campaign style.
The devs take these names that have gathered up superior nominations and the community starts voting. The results are announced. We now have our player and forum member opointed council.
Agreed.. that is indeed what should have happened.. but it's not..
The fact that Cryptic has ALREADY appointed the members.. no vote.. no input from the player community they are supposedly representing
You are not answering the question. The way they appointed the reps before they announced the council was a bad idea. I agree with you on this.
But, they will allow anyone to submit their name for a council seat. The way it is presented looks like there will be an unlimited number of seats. So all you need to do is chose someone or yourself to be on the council to represent you. Then others can do the same. They just want impute from players and non-players. That is all.
But that's not the stated goal. They want people who are STAR TREK related.
-Forjo
from the OP:
We're happy to introduce the Star Trek Advisory Council, where we speak to members of the Star Trek and Star Trek Online community to learn more about what our fans want from the game. Read on to learn more.
OUR fans. Unless they are playing the game, they are not Cryptic's fans and may have zero idea who they are. The Star Trek fan that is not in STO should have a voice in how the game goes? Then why not give voice to guys who have been banned back? At least they invested something in the game and know what the game really needs or doesn't need more.
No intelligent person should trust marketing. The whole purpose of the profession is to bamboozle you into thinking you want something that you probably really don't.
Marketing can have a strong influence on the weak minded.
(with apologies to Obi Wan Kenobi)
Marketing reminds me of the song Razzle Dazzle out of Chicago.
Well, I need to go. It's been fun. See everyone later.
The fact that Cryptic has ALREADY appointed the members.. no vote.. no input from the player community they are supposedly representing
You know what you are right. I'm personal going to write to every company in America who use focus groups and any other group like this to try to find out what people don't like about their product and write them a nasty letter. Heck didn't dominoes use a focus group to cange their pizza. I'm going to start with them because I had no input........lol.
Are those the names of their starships? You guys at Cryptic are really off your rocker! The U.S.S. Shut Up, Wesley will only steer you down the path of ruin that much quicker.
Goodbye all pretense, Hello bad WoW clone, complete with guys who have no respect for others in mmo worlds.
nop.e i am all for ingame surveys and votes, no need for e selection of people most of the playerbase will never know, hear anything of or give shiite about.
Polls and surveys are neutral processes. they do not give spins to things. just raw info.
And thats the difference. People always give personal opinions - often outright ignoring their so called base.
A survey does not do that (if its made decently, of course).
Agreed.. that is indeed what should have happened.. but it's not..
It sounds to me like Cryptic wants this to be player run. Not controlled by Cryptic. Sence anyone can be on the council. All players can pick a rep to ask to be on this council. Then send info to this person to send to Cryptic. It is very simple and is a better way than the random forum post that most players never read.
a couple of random star trek pics in a blog does NOT make it 'related"
I'll take your word for that.
I have no interest (or place) in defending the choices that led to the initial council members. My goal here is to express my opinion that this is merely an additional source of input for Cryptic that will be weighed with and against all of the other forms of input that they already have and will have in the future.
I am also attempting to counter-balance posters who have a problem with this and who seem to be deliberately misrepresenting this "organization" as one that will be given greater importance in Cryptic's decisions. Ivan has repeatedly stated that this WILL NOT be the case and I have no reason to doubt him.
You are not answering the question. The way they appointed the reps before they announced the council was a bad idea. I agree with you on this.
But, they will allow anyone to submit their name for a council seat. The way it is presented looks like there will be an unlimited number of seats. So all you need to do is chose someone or yourself to be on the council to represent you. Then others can do the same. They just want impute from players and non-players. That is all.
As long as they have the original appointed members remain there, it will not matter... the whole concept of "representation" will be flawed, as long as appointed members, not voted member, ANY appointed members, are on this council....
nop.e i am all for ingame surveys and votes, no need for e selection of people most of the playerbase will never know, hear anything of or give shiite about.
Polls and surveys are neutral processes. they do not give spins to things. just raw info.
And thats the difference. People always give personal opinions - often outright ignoring their so called base.
A survey does not do that (if its made decently, of course).
That is true, but most players do not fill out polls, they just ignore them. So what is wrong with having more options for imput. Polls, the forums, the council, E-mails, IM's and on and on.
You know what you are right. I'm personal going to write to every company in America who use focus groups and any other group like this to try to find out what people don't like about their product and write them a nasty letter. Heck didn't dominoes use a focus group to cange their pizza. I'm going to start with them because I had no input........lol.
Nifty little detail: They usually bring out a new products and don't revamp a succesfull product and **** off there customers with that.
I haven't heard this many conspiracy theory, doom and gloom ideas since well, I watched the news.
seriously anyone that provides this many ways to get peoples ideas out should be applauded, not demeaned.
perhaps what we're seeing here, is instead of a desire to hear more different voices, the scared and concerned that their more vocal voices that post oh so loudly on the forums are gonna be diluted, since the Dev's will have more voices to hear then just the vocal few that they hear now.
As long as they have the original appointed members remain there, it will not matter... the whole concept of "representation" will be flawed, as long as appointed members, not voted member, ANY appointed members, are on this council....
This is why I ask everyone who was appointed, to politely DECLINE and request that they stand for nomination by the players and election.
If they really want this to work, If they want to represent us and not be known as "hand picked fanbois" they should INSIST on it.
If they don't. Well... I guess they don't mind it.
As long as they have the original appointed members remain there, it will not matter... the whole concept of "representation" will be flawed, as long as appointed members, not voted member, ANY appointed members, are on this council....
This is not like running for congress. It is for Joe Shmoe and Player X to have a say in an alternate way from the forums or polls. That is all, it is not a big deal, it is not a real ST council. It is just for impute from players that don't post here on the forums.
I'm sorry, but you have me at a loss. Are you truly saying companies should not pursue users they don't already have? That's... extraordinary. No commercials? No promotions? No trailers? No PR? No marketing? No attempt whatsoever? Just... give up? If you get 'em, good. And if not, oh well. That can't be right.
I didn't say don't market the game i didn't say don't advertise the game. I said don't chase, there is a difference.
The way you have been saying things makes it appear that you are more interested with getting access to the feedback of people that dislike or chose not to play this game. The only reason i can see why you are after this feedback is to try and find a way to win them over which most likely won't work. Most of the changes these people will want will be in direct contrast to the game as it currently is.
I see this leading to a choice listen to us or listen to them. as you are making this now before even running a single survey, poll or feedback request in game or even posting a feedback form that is accessible to current subscribers it implies you are more interested in reaching out to them than us. After all the only mass survey you have ran was website based and if they aren't willing to come to the forums odds are they aren't coming to the website much either.
i think what a lot of people are bother by is your willingness to jump straight out to them without fully reaching out to us.
BTW, a great deal of this parallels what happened when you rewarded new subscribers with more time than those that pre-ordered . This showed a large portion of the community that you are more interested in reaching out to new customers than you are maintaining your current subscribers.
weather any of this is intended or not this is what alot of people are seeing.
(and no i don't presume to speak for all these vague people i speak about it is just my opinion on this my feedback to you if you read it.)
It sounds to me like Cryptic wants this to be player run. Not controlled by Cryptic. Sence anyone can be on the council. All players can pick a rep to ask to be on this council. Then send info to this person to send to Cryptic. It is very simple and is a better way than the random forum post that most players never read.
If they wanted it to be player-run, they haven't just approached it from the wrong direction, they drove through Opposite Land.
You are not answering the question. The way they appointed the reps before they announced the council was a bad idea. I agree with you on this.
But, they will allow anyone to submit their name for a council seat. The way it is presented looks like there will be an unlimited number of seats. So all you need to do is chose someone or yourself to be on the council to represent you. Then others can do the same. They just want impute from players and non-players. That is all.
and who do you think they will pick?
1. People with low visability that love STO and are on the forums?
2. People with high-traffic sites that can either cross-merchandise, or pimp STO things out.
A poster earlier said Chris from STOked wants zero Klingon content and basically to shut down the faction -- if this is true (I never listened to it so going by what he said) -- how is he a good choice?
Technically, he said things I can't repost here and stay within community guidelines. The gist of it however was that he was tired of hearing Klingon enthusiasts whine and that the developers should press on in adding content for other factions.
So... Cryptic is giving power to 4 people and ignoring the feedback from everyone else?
Let me tell you what i can see happening here, STO will be moulded in the image of these 4 people, any other feedback or suggestions are just flat out ignored. You could approach one of these guys with a brilliant idea, and if THEY dont like it, they wont pass it on or even acknowledge it, so the Cryptic devs and marketing people will never see it.
My opinion is not represented by ANYONE whether the're "appointed" representatives or not.
If they wanted it to be player-run, they haven't just approached it from the wrong direction, they drove through Opposite Land.
Yes, if they wanted it player run, we wouldn't have to e-mail some Cryptic appointed guy/gal just to express interest since even that wasn't a player decision.
If they wanted it to be player-run, they haven't just approached it from the wrong direction, they drove through Opposite Land.
They did approach it wrong. That is the whole problem here. They appointed rep's before anouncing the council. That was not very smart. But that doesn't mean that the whole idea is bad.
You know what you are right. I'm personal going to write to every company in America who use focus groups and any other group like this to try to find out what people don't like about their product and write them a nasty letter. Heck didn't dominoes use a focus group to cange their pizza. I'm going to start with them because I had no input........lol.
Except, smarta**, this is supposed to represent the PLAYER community... they are supposed to be listening to us, and presenting our ideas to Cryptic... focus groups work FOR the company for the benefit of the COMPANY, using as small a cross section of people as they can, whereas they have already stated this "Council" is to help the player community.... so next time you want to wise off, make yourself sound a little less ignorant next time
So... Cryptic is giving power to 4 people and ignoring the feedback from everyone else?
Let me tell you what i can see happening here, STO will be moulded in the image of these 4 people, any other feedback or suggestions are just flat out ignored. You could approach one of these guys with a brilliant idea, and if THEY dont like it, they wont pass it on or even acknowledge it, so the Cryptic devs and marketing people will never see it.
My opinion is not represented by ANYONE whether the're "appointed" representatives or not.
They are saying they are not. But you do the math.
I have no interest (or place) in defending the choices that led to the initial council members. My goal here is to express my opinion that this is merely an additional source of input for Cryptic that will be weighed with and against all of the other forms of input that they already have and will have in the future.
I am also attempting to counter-balance posters who have a problem with this and who seem to be deliberately misrepresenting this "organization" as one that will be given greater importance in Cryptic's decisions. Ivan has repeatedly stated that this WILL NOT be the case and I have no reason to doubt him.
-Forjo
Then they should mention this from the begin.
I don't posses the supernatural abillity to read the mind of what people think while they are posting. I can only interpret what is written and compare that to my own expirience.
And my expirience when only several players get a "first row seat" with the devs are usually bad. And I know both sides, since i had the privelige to be on such a group, Even if it was only for a mod.
Comments
No intelligent person should trust marketing. The whole purpose of the profession is to bamboozle you into thinking you want something that you probably really don't. Stuff that you really do want doesn't need to be marketed to you, you will buy it anyway.
Marketing can have a strong influence on the weak minded.
(with apologies to Obi Wan Kenobi)
Agreed.. that is indeed what should have happened.. but it's not..
You are not answering the question. The way they appointed the reps before they announced the council was a bad idea. I agree with you on this.
But, they will allow anyone to submit their name for a council seat. The way it is presented looks like there will be an unlimited number of seats. So all you need to do is chose someone or yourself to be on the council to represent you. Then others can do the same. They just want impute from players and non-players. That is all.
Which is why this thing already has one foot in the grave and the other is standing on a banana peel.
from the OP:
We're happy to introduce the Star Trek Advisory Council, where we speak to members of the Star Trek and Star Trek Online community to learn more about what our fans want from the game. Read on to learn more.
OUR fans. Unless they are playing the game, they are not Cryptic's fans and may have zero idea who they are. The Star Trek fan that is not in STO should have a voice in how the game goes? Then why not give voice to guys who have been banned back? At least they invested something in the game and know what the game really needs or doesn't need more.
Marketing reminds me of the song Razzle Dazzle out of Chicago.
Well, I need to go. It's been fun. See everyone later.
Goodbye all pretense, Hello bad WoW clone, complete with guys who have no respect for others in mmo worlds.
nop.e i am all for ingame surveys and votes, no need for e selection of people most of the playerbase will never know, hear anything of or give shiite about.
Polls and surveys are neutral processes. they do not give spins to things. just raw info.
And thats the difference. People always give personal opinions - often outright ignoring their so called base.
A survey does not do that (if its made decently, of course).
It sounds to me like Cryptic wants this to be player run. Not controlled by Cryptic. Sence anyone can be on the council. All players can pick a rep to ask to be on this council. Then send info to this person to send to Cryptic. It is very simple and is a better way than the random forum post that most players never read.
I have no interest (or place) in defending the choices that led to the initial council members. My goal here is to express my opinion that this is merely an additional source of input for Cryptic that will be weighed with and against all of the other forms of input that they already have and will have in the future.
I am also attempting to counter-balance posters who have a problem with this and who seem to be deliberately misrepresenting this "organization" as one that will be given greater importance in Cryptic's decisions. Ivan has repeatedly stated that this WILL NOT be the case and I have no reason to doubt him.
-Forjo
Well, they say that those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, consult.
Those who can't market... become politicians!
As long as they have the original appointed members remain there, it will not matter... the whole concept of "representation" will be flawed, as long as appointed members, not voted member, ANY appointed members, are on this council....
That is true, but most players do not fill out polls, they just ignore them. So what is wrong with having more options for imput. Polls, the forums, the council, E-mails, IM's and on and on.
Nifty little detail: They usually bring out a new products and don't revamp a succesfull product and **** off there customers with that.
seriously anyone that provides this many ways to get peoples ideas out should be applauded, not demeaned.
perhaps what we're seeing here, is instead of a desire to hear more different voices, the scared and concerned that their more vocal voices that post oh so loudly on the forums are gonna be diluted, since the Dev's will have more voices to hear then just the vocal few that they hear now.
Just an amused observation
This is why I ask everyone who was appointed, to politely DECLINE and request that they stand for nomination by the players and election.
If they really want this to work, If they want to represent us and not be known as "hand picked fanbois" they should INSIST on it.
If they don't. Well... I guess they don't mind it.
This is not like running for congress. It is for Joe Shmoe and Player X to have a say in an alternate way from the forums or polls. That is all, it is not a big deal, it is not a real ST council. It is just for impute from players that don't post here on the forums.
The Will Smith pic says it all about this idea. So I guess she does represent after all.
Really? can you link me to the form on the website where i can leave feedback? a support ticket isn't a feedback form either.
I didn't say don't market the game i didn't say don't advertise the game. I said don't chase, there is a difference.
The way you have been saying things makes it appear that you are more interested with getting access to the feedback of people that dislike or chose not to play this game. The only reason i can see why you are after this feedback is to try and find a way to win them over which most likely won't work. Most of the changes these people will want will be in direct contrast to the game as it currently is.
I see this leading to a choice listen to us or listen to them. as you are making this now before even running a single survey, poll or feedback request in game or even posting a feedback form that is accessible to current subscribers it implies you are more interested in reaching out to them than us. After all the only mass survey you have ran was website based and if they aren't willing to come to the forums odds are they aren't coming to the website much either.
i think what a lot of people are bother by is your willingness to jump straight out to them without fully reaching out to us.
BTW, a great deal of this parallels what happened when you rewarded new subscribers with more time than those that pre-ordered . This showed a large portion of the community that you are more interested in reaching out to new customers than you are maintaining your current subscribers.
weather any of this is intended or not this is what alot of people are seeing.
(and no i don't presume to speak for all these vague people i speak about it is just my opinion on this my feedback to you if you read it.)
If they wanted it to be player-run, they haven't just approached it from the wrong direction, they drove through Opposite Land.
Yeah, you don't claim you want something to be player run, then impose it by fascism.
and who do you think they will pick?
1. People with low visability that love STO and are on the forums?
2. People with high-traffic sites that can either cross-merchandise, or pimp STO things out.
zoinks, scoob, like head for the van
Technically, he said things I can't repost here and stay within community guidelines. The gist of it however was that he was tired of hearing Klingon enthusiasts whine and that the developers should press on in adding content for other factions.
Let me tell you what i can see happening here, STO will be moulded in the image of these 4 people, any other feedback or suggestions are just flat out ignored. You could approach one of these guys with a brilliant idea, and if THEY dont like it, they wont pass it on or even acknowledge it, so the Cryptic devs and marketing people will never see it.
My opinion is not represented by ANYONE whether the're "appointed" representatives or not.
Yes, if they wanted it player run, we wouldn't have to e-mail some Cryptic appointed guy/gal just to express interest since even that wasn't a player decision.
They did approach it wrong. That is the whole problem here. They appointed rep's before anouncing the council. That was not very smart. But that doesn't mean that the whole idea is bad.
Except, smarta**, this is supposed to represent the PLAYER community... they are supposed to be listening to us, and presenting our ideas to Cryptic... focus groups work FOR the company for the benefit of the COMPANY, using as small a cross section of people as they can, whereas they have already stated this "Council" is to help the player community.... so next time you want to wise off, make yourself sound a little less ignorant next time
They are saying they are not. But you do the math.
Then they should mention this from the begin.
I don't posses the supernatural abillity to read the mind of what people think while they are posting. I can only interpret what is written and compare that to my own expirience.
And my expirience when only several players get a "first row seat" with the devs are usually bad. And I know both sides, since i had the privelige to be on such a group, Even if it was only for a mod.