test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Options
STO Community: Not Needed
System
Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I had fun, but no one needs me There's no role for me to play in any mission other than being more pew pew
Someone else wrote this in another thread and it got me thinking. Perhaps new "i quit" threads are being created nearly everyday because STO doesn't give people a sense of investment or allows them to feel apart of a greater whole.
I won't speak to the "community" issues facing this game. But what about the design decision that essentially causes a role/class mechanic that effectively blurs the lines of distinction between players. We may look different due to our customized ships and avatars... but does that have any real gameplay value, or grant any sense of accomplishment?
Granted this design mechanic prevents the problems we had in WoW (LF Tank... LF Healer... LF A FRACKING TANk< WHERE ARE ALL THE TANKS!!!) but was it done properly and/or are we better off for it?
Its a crude revelation for me to realize "I'm not really needed." Is this what gives me a slight detachment from the game or is it something else. Does anyone else feel the same way? Or are the rest of you liking this. I'd really be interested to know, and may even help the dev's form opinions on what to work on/not work on next.
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
However, such a concept is reliant on the product being aimed at a sufficiently large audience that would guarantee enough return to cover development costs and profit margins. History has shown that the majority of income for an MMO is in the subs, not in the box sales.
You are correct in your feelings though. When there is a distinct lack of quality in a product, the customer feels less emotion to continue using it. After all, how can the customer be expected to be loyal to a product that refuses to show any respect to the customers needs?
You may be right. We can only speculate. But if it were true... well... I don't know... it seems almost akin to suicide to take such an IP as Star Trek (which has the potential for HUGE long term returns) and just make it into a money grab.
What with the issues surrounding Champions Online, and now all of the huge groans of disappointment in the professional gaming industry... Cryptic/Atari are ruining their own reputation and fast. I would have thought, they would have more sense than that, even when loads of fans were voicing their concerns well before the game was launched. But alas, I digress! Lets hope they just made a lot of honest mistakes, and it wasn't the higher up's intentions.
Only time will tell as to how many of the current issues are down to mistakes and how many were actually intentional and in accordance with the devs design documentation.
Someone, somewhere is pulling the strings, and that's often the same people who have a tight hold of the money bags i.e. Atari. And right now, Atari are not making life easy on themselves or anyone who is "in bed" with them. Both on a legal front (see the reports about Turbine and Atari) or in the eyes of the MMO community playerbase.
With specific regards to the roles, history has shown that players respond more positively to distinct roles that their players can play, rather than everyone being a "jack of all trades / master of none". The distinctions have been with us since the inception of the D&D concept back in the 70's and theres a reason why it works. People in real life are skillful in certain areas and enjoy those roles. That's what sets one person from another. THAT's what creates diversity. Otherwise, we are all nothing but clones. All able to do the same thing and therefore everything becomes bland, mundane and downright boring because it is all geared towards that common design.
Variety and choice of activities = diversity. Diversity creates a more enriching experience and thus a happier customer. However, diversity needs to ensure that distinctions are maintained in roles and activities, otherwise the variety and choice is just an illusion.
Jacob and Tarka, I think you're both correct.... to a large degree the game lacks in players feeling invested in their characters, and is somewhat disposable as a result...
One of the things in MMO's that I've seen set people off more lividly and fervently than anything else is affecting the characters that they've invested so much time and thought in... That can mean nullifying the work people have put into them (SWG / NGE) or that can mean investing in a character with no purpose once the time investment is made (STO by-and-large)
That is one of the things I think Cryptic is just ...well ...naive... about in MMO's... Which is a sign that they don't know the genera very well, because it's been a singularly true thing since we were all playing these games on paper with dice.... (yes even Star Trek had one, and it was good too)
They seem to want the MMO / Battlefield approach, which is disposable, they missed the fact though, that these games are essentially free in their online sides... .but Cryptic wants the money of the MMORPG model, which is the model inwhich the investment in your characters is a major component...
They seem to want to have their cake and eat it too... Which is backfiring on them considerably... Yet I haven't heard of any plans to change that....
Well written and expressed , but I don't agree with your premise , unless you think that WaR , AoC and other major MMO'S suffer from the same thing , I have seen this same threads in there forums and its always the "worst MMO ever" , like I always say , if you truly want to enjoy a game Stay away from the forums.
Your right, the premise is faulted due to hasty generalizations. I realize people are quitting left and right due to a myriad of reasons.
I guess the question is more of a personal one then. The only reason why I'm sticking around is because I feel slightly obligated to, having bought a lifetime. If I hadn't done that, then it begs the question "how easy would it be for me to leave this game". My first notion would be to answer "pretty easy", as I really feel no attachment, investment, or self worth in this game. I am simply not a part of any larger "whole". Fleets are one things (and it can be argued that even they aren't done well)... but when I think of "Star Trek"... I think of the Federation (or Klingong Empire) as something large and grand... not merely a label or faction I am loosely affiliated with, ya know what I mean?
What you said matches their business goals. I don't have the link anymore, but you can search it in their corporate site.
In my opinion, the PVE difficulty at the start of Open Beta was along the right lines.
At the moment, PVP is the only aspect of the game offering any real challenge, although min/max teams are now finding the balance issues that turn matches into more of a gamble than challenge (i.e., certain ability chaining, stunlock stacking).
In my opinion, the game design is not just fine, but it is an excellent framework for development. That said, it needs a lot more flesh and polish to be considered an excellent game.
The problem with STO at the moment isn't the community or the game, in my opinion: it's Cryptic PR. Take the following response from Cryptic:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=2143552#post2143552
They clearly state they are reading the forums and occasionally respond, but what we need is more one-way communication via the web site. We need a running development roadmap, so we know that they heard our issues and are planning to address them.
All of this would go a long way toward managing customer expectations, as it would show us that our suggestions and criticisms aren't being buried on the forums.
EDIT: Typo.
That is very reasonable and nicely communicated.
I'd encourage you to start a thread on this very topic in the General Feedback forums to see what other people think about this. This very well may be a reason (among others) why STO feels slightly... watered down.
Main Class: Science
Sub Class: Medical
Main Class: Tactical
Sub Class: Security
Main Class: Engineer
Sub Class: Warp Specialist
...and then do that with each class it might add more diversity, which may make you more important in the long run and perhaps more fun. Also not a bad idea to have some Class specific episodes, like for a Science/Medical officer, you have to race to a unknown planet to save an alien race that is thinking about joining the federation form being wiped out from a new plague or something like that, and do this for the different classes and base the episodes on those classes that may be enough to invite more diversity in gameplay.
Cryptic could add missions or enemies where you have to have the correct Commander level BO skill or class specific skill to be able to defeat. Let's say Aceton Field III, so without Aceton Field III you could not defeat a Borg Cube, so then everyone would NEED a cruiser in there group with AF III in the Commander BO sikill spot. That would at least be something where a role could be created. Maybe enemies where you MUST have a SCI ship that can target auxillaries or something, but geez at least SOMETHING where I would be needed.
Other main reason I quit, I feel betrayed by Cryptic like I felt betrayed by SOE when they crapped on the Star Wars IP with their unfinished release of SWG. Cryptic has done the same thing. They lied about what the game would be like on their pre-release website and their press releases, and the unfinished product we got wasn't worth the wait and wasn't up to what we expected for our beloved IP. STO absolutely is not the game described on the pre-release website, and STO absolutely is not Star Trek just like SWG wasn't Star Wars. Sure, there's plenty of pew pew in both games, but I can get Star Wars and Star Trek pew pew without paying a monthly fee. This is paid beta just like I said on release day because SOE did the same thing with SWG. "Publish unfinished and patch later" simply doesn't cut it any more. I've been down that road before and I didn't like it.
- the instancing is being poorly done because it's even difficult to be in the same instance as you Fleet
- the game difficulty (difficulty of missions, no penalties or consequences, etc) do not make is so that players NEED each other to fulfill roles. I have yet to see anyone shouting in the forums : "Looking fro DPS" or "Looking for Tank" or "Looking for Healer". You simply don't need help for the most part for most of the missions it seems.
As for this being a "disposable MMO", I have trouble with this because if this was the case, Cryptic would not only be killing a potential cash cow for themselves, they would be commiting suicide for themselves completely. NO ONE would trust Cryptic anymore to create anything that they would be willing to spend their money on. You can not risk to invoke the wrath of so many, well networked geeks! They just as well shut down if they throw STO away.
Cheers!
Latenight_Canuck
When I am on a team, my only feeling is "my team needs me for more SPACEBAR".
My skills, abilities, or weapons do not matter. This game was designed so that we are all one man killing machines. Rambo, but with phasers and ships. And to make matters worse, that is all we do, kill. What happened to diplomacy, puzzles, and the random science threat?
The game hasnt even been out a month and I already need to purchase a new keyboard since the SPACEBAR is beaten to death.
Common Cryptic, give us a sense of purpose other than fire all phasers.
Remaking the game for those who failed at recess would be unwise.
You are looking at grouping in a pessimistic way. Other MMOs especially in their earlier versions required grouping to get through content. The ideology behind grouping now to reward for coordination between players. The thought behind grouping now is to give better items or more experience based on how well those people work together. I maybe able to earn decent rewards based on solo play but if people can work well together should be able to earn the best reward through hard work and communication.
Roles help that by giving those that have specialized skills a better chance at working together to defeat obstacles that solo players can not. Look at LOTRO and conjunctions, FFXI skillchains, or WoW Class Raid buffs. This game is already perfect for those that want that solo experience. All it needs now is to build up on the group experience by creating content for those players that want to experience the fun of getting people coordinated to bring down harder obstacles.
People write these posts because they want Cryptic to wake up and make changes to a game they want to see improve. Since all content is solo'able, differing rolls have nothing to do with it.
I agree with this, it's the root cause.
The difficulty is a joke, there really isn't any challenge to speak of.
Make the game significantly harder, and watch how fast everyone clamours for science officers and cruisers to join groups.
STO is just a fancy chat room at this point.
Having said that they do need to make the game harder,quite a bit harder in fact.
Last night we had a team on a couple of ground mission's and as a science officer who recently got some nice equipment for heals I was looking forward to trying it out..in the mission's we done I did not have to use a single heal,we basically tore through the missions.
I get what everyone is saying about classes but I do think if they just made the game more difficult then the classes would come more into the game.
I would also say the sooner they add some sort of death penalty the better the game will be for it,even some sort of stacking debuff to shields and hull would be enough for people to stop and think before they charged in.
In STO basically there are no defined roles because each player can hop between tank, healer and DD.
Problem with this game atm is that the difficulty is aligned for soloing escorts what makes healers/tanks redundant.
Either Cryptic will change nothing, then STO will stay fast food and a mayfly, or they start to design it in the right way so that our escort glass-cannons need tank and healers. In both cases a large part of the playerbase will quit, in the first case those who wants more than escort pewpew, in the other case escort players who are frustrated that they can't longer solo.
Cryptic could make more money in the long run with the classical concept of an MMOG but in our capitalistic world long term goals are often sacrificed for short term profit.
I wonder what Cryptic will decide to do. We will see.
You need to find that link. If this game is gonna be ditched by these guys then Im gonna have to move on. Im not gonna play a game the company put out JUST as a last grab at cash and have no intention of supporting long term.
Especially as it seems im still in the window for my refund. I was all about being invested in this game despite its shortcomings, but you got something official, from their company that shows theyre not gonna keep this game in the fore, then I might think about pulling out/
It also begs the question of inevitability: are traditional MMO roles inevitable?
Personally speaking, I'm fine either way, but I think the answer is more forthcoming if the gameplay difficulty developed first, which at least gives players the choice of whether or not to define themselves according to traditional MMO roles.
If the designers truly do not have defined roles in mind, I suspect we would never see aggro tables or dedicated taunt mechanics. And I do hope we see this, because I would be interested to see how groups deal with this on an extreme scale (i.e., end-game content).
Whether or not roles become defined in STO, I think it's natural to assume that someone will be upset and not play. Defined gameplay can never please everyone. And, to be honest, I don't think that will be a problem anyway, since there are probably as many interested players for both camps (i.e., defined and undefined roles).
I agree that this will be a case of 'wait and see', and that end-game content will be the deciding factor. For me, this is the aspect of the game that I most anticipate seeing.
EDIT: Just a disclaimer that I, personally, am firmly in the undefined roles camp. I see that as a bigger challenge, and offering more freedom of choice, than having traditional MMO roles.
I think you need to look more into the changing face of P&P RPG's... While the most mainstream P&P RPG's do force specific roles... and those roles even have changed (D&D 4E for example turns to a more MMO concept, which isn't to strange as they birthed them). However... for as long as I can remember (and that's easily 3 decades) P&P RPG's have had people who 'tweak' their role to make it do what they want... hence multi-classing and other hyrbids... it's also why entire systems are built around choice, their are no classes just a variety of skills that can be used in many forms. Whitewolf does this in their products, WotC even has some such as Exalted. And the grand-dad of choice is GURPS a pure point based RPG where you are at best given 'outlines' for making a 'type' though you can chose anything you want within your point balance. Another key point of point buy systems is that the more useful the ability, the more it costs. Personally I've been waiting 2 decades for a good point buy based PC RPG (So far only one was ever made, and it wasn't as thought out as something like GURPS) or MMO RPG.
STO is a horrible example of any of these systems... it's not role or class based... it's not collections of related skills defining purpose... and it's not even a point based system allowing you to create roles and concepts by choosing who to build your character. STO is instead a minimal combination of disciplines and it fails because of that. It also shows you were meant to be able to max at all the skills in time... Each tier pushes you to use newly available for your rank weapons, each tier pushes you to master a certain ship piloting skill, engineering skills are key to keeping power up, forgetting to invest in ground skills makes you weak on the ground, and if your going to use science abilities training scientific skills are required. The catch is you never have the points to make that work... ever. This ends up with everyone being jacks of all trades and masters of none... Someone speced for space combat will have to take points from ground... Someone who trains engineering skills will lack in science... add to this the fact you must spend points to achieve a new rank... Well the results aren't pretty...
In my case I specced for ground and space at earlier levels when you still can, but I ignored science... Training each tiers piloting skill for the maneuvering bonus, all the engineering skills I could get to boost power levels, but I had less and less to spend on ground skills... So now at the end I suck on the ground as does my away team... I'm 'ok' in space, but only in ships of 1 type and only with certain weapons from the last rank because I can't even afford admiral rank weapon skills for those shiny new weapons... I also can't use science skills very effectively, so I may as well not bother with them... That doesn't give me a 'role' or even a 'concept' it's a badly assorted set of skills that don't fit well together...
I've also watched as they striped bonuses from weapons... once upon a time a disruptor always provided it's debuff... now it's a 5% chance... everything has a 5% chance of even seeming different... I originally did a loadout with multiple types of weapons to have multiple possible effects on enemies... Now that's rather silly to do... Why bother with weapons that 5% of the time give a 80 point bonus to shield damage? A phaser has a 5% chance to take out shields, weapons, engines, or aux from enemies... all more useful than a 5% chance at 80 extra points of damage only to shields...
I don't think they even thought about 'classic MMO roles' when making this, they definitely didn't in Champions. However cruisers make acceptable healers do to more engineering skills, Science vessels do get an edge in controlling abilities, and escorts get the highest tier offensive abilities. This is based almost entirely on BO's. Original 'class' adds 3 abilities on the ground and 2 in space which are unique to that specialty, which has very little impact in the late game. It was meant to be 3 and 3, but the cap we have now is to low for the 3rd space ability...
Oh and I can't imagine you've played into admiral rank material if you think escorts are what the game is balanced to... I can barely fight off a borg cube solo in my tier 5 escorts... and it usually takes more than 1 life to do it... and their isn't much left of me when I get done when I do win...
A pessimist is just what an optimist calls a realist.
Defined roles does not lead to community. What it leads to is the following:
Your tanking sucks, keep them off the healers!
Your healing is weak. Heal me more. HEAL ME MORE!
The damage meter says that you are not good enough of a player to be with us.
I'm sorry, discoed and couldn't hold aggro.
Main healer down, everyone wipe and we will try again.
Etc, etc...
I could go on, but I think you get the point. Strict enforcement of roles is a very primitive form of game design, and does NOT actually build community. It helps build elitism, which is the antithesis of community. It also encourages robotic game play, where everything follows a formula, and adaptation or dynamic encounters can not exist. Group encounters become a task of "wait for X, do Y, then wait for Z". This is lazy game design and boring to play over and over and OVER (which you WILL be doing in the end-game treadmill).
I would much prefer a game where players can shift roles and tactics as evolving situations require. Yes, it requires more creativity and raw intelligence that it seems some people want to put in to gaming, but I have found it also provides a more satisfying game experience. Yeah, there is some overlap in skills. THIS IS NOT INHERENTLY A BAD THING!
Finally, the nail in the "strongly defined class roles" coffin:
Before space combat was nerfed in to the ground, way back in beta, certain encounters were quite hard. In fact, they were impossible for most people to deal with on their own. You want to know what happened? People made teams, and took on the encounters in groups. They formed friendships, and learned to work as a group. They OFFERED and REQUESTED to be in teams, in open chat. This is not theory, this is HOW IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
Hammering the player characters in to typical (and boring) cookie cutter forms is not necessary at all. Just provide a serious challenge to players. The community will do the rest. Yeah, some people were able to take on these encounters solo. I cleared everything myself, but I also enjoyed going BACK, and participating with other players to help THEM through the content. There were many others who did the same. It built community. It was good.
What people who want pre-defined roles really want, is the game to conform to what they are used to from other games, instead of growing and adapting to new game play.
In a short-term MMO, you're 100% right. In a long term MMO, not so much. Look at EvE or Darkfall or Runescpae, all on extremely long progression scales, but allowing complete freedom with no cap on what you can use or train. The latter is my preference, but considering that STO will never be designed for years and years of gameplay, I suppose a return to traditional MMO classes makes most sense.
This game has no reason to need anyone, so it has no reason for anyone who wants to fill a niche to play.
Many people strive to be the best (role) that they can, in this game there is no reward for being the best except DPS.
In my mind this game is nothing more than fancy Galaga where I shoot everthing that drops out of the sky; or on the ground. (With a few "scan" missions thrown in for variety.
I purchased a Lifetime subscription and can only hope that the game improves with time, if not then I lost an hour and a half of pay... :rolleyes:
The lack of roles will drive away people who want structure and organization, what will be left is a gang of thugs who thrive on anarchy and "pew pew". Intelligent players will find a new game to play until such time as STO fails or they institute major changes to make grouping more viable. Some will leave and never look back due to the very poor experiance they enountered.
a) There's no raid, so folks don't need support/tank/dps.
b) The "no one needs me"-folks need to do a couple missions in a 5-ish group and come back. Enemy ships size and strenght are generated according to group size. Having 5 folks in a group facing battleships. There's a difference doing it with pure dps setup or with 4 dps, 1 support (science vessels).