Negvhars aren't science ships--the players piloting them can be. You don't recognize this as my point because...you are <explicit>? Grats you.
Ah, to beat the carriers I only need to target you.
Well Tab targeting is useless, because there are 50 smaller targets around you--and between you and me.
Click targeting is also useless, mostly because it never has worked correctly but also because again--there are 50 other targets between you and me.
I note the whining, and I laugh at the stupidity of it all.
Carriers are OP because of the bug exploits. I don't give a damn if the AI is terrible, if I could fire 10 photon torpedoes plus my 'helper' science BOP's torps and my own weapons--hey, I'd kick the TRIBBLE out of things too.
Add in the numerous debuffs science officers get, and yeah--it's not fun fighting Vo'Quz.
As far as my system goes--are you kidding? STO has some of the worst graphic optimizations in the industry. Have you played WoW at all? 5 billion little glow effects. STO? Kills my system. I'm well aware WoW is many years old--but if STO is just a reskin of CO, and CO still has serious framerate issues--what's it got to do with my PC? Which has a dual nvidia card setup, dual quad CPU's, dual HD, and 6 GB of ram. So it's not really my system, now is it? It's the game itself.
I don't get lag issues in any other game--period. In STO, I can't run at max during pvp, and with lots of carrier spam, I can't run at recommended.
I am unimpressed with the broken goodness of carriers. You can say they suck, but the truth is, they don't for many reasons.
When you can stop exploiting bugs, then we can talk about how poor they may or may not be with only a few ships rather than a swarm.
Anyone who says destroying the swarm is easy when you are debuffed, is just laughable.
Thanks for the Vid its nice to see - A little audio chat would have been gr8 too
I have a couple observations though.
Without comparing the Carrier stats or abilities - The Feds in this battle weren't even in group ! which sort of suggests they weren't on any kind of audio chat system either (Vent - Teamspeak etc) Was there any target calling on the Feds side at all ?
I would wager on a 5 team of Captains using Vent and working together in a group against 5 Admirals out of group and not using Vent. I will also guess that the healing on the Fed team was all Self healing only ??
Whilst the Thread is about the Vo'Quv I feel that whilst pretty and entertaining, the actual Youtube vid sadly shows that the Feds in this battle just weren't pulling together and deserved to get spanked on this occasion regardless of ship class on the other team. :rolleyes:
I cant solo , Cryptic , nerf my enemies for using debuffs!
Basically what I think of your long winded whine. Carrier swarms are beaten with AoE skills. Even easier is to attack the carriers themselves. It has only been deemed a bug by the community , not the developers , who have not addressed the issue in any of the patches since CB except to increase cooldown time from 30 seconds to 1 minute on fighters.
Ok, I'm a little confused here. This video doesn't really show me what the problem is. The Vo'Quv was in battle, and you dispatched it with relative ease. Then another guy shows up, who looks like he's doing far better than the Vo'Quv, especially since you continued to fire on him all the way through his RSP, and still you took him out. Then a couple of Klingons teamed up on you and the Vo'Quv had barely enough time to get to the fight to help finish you off. His fighters never made it there.
Reading the numbers at the end was hard for me to do, so I'm not sure what they were, but without seeing the whole battle it's hard to say what really happened. You said the group wasn't good... can't that be the reason why you lost here? Can you show us a full battle report where you're in a good team to show us how the carrier is unreasonable?
And to those who say it's a bug to be able to spawn all of those fighters, I have yet to be shown any evidence in that respect. You don't have fighters, so saying that swapping your gear doesn't work has no bearing on the fighters. They can't swap the same gear you have, only the fighters, and only out of combat. I fail to see how it doesn't make sense that a carrier can load different sets of fighters to launch them.
Sending your fighters in from 25k away may sound cheezy, but given how bad they are supposed to be I'd have to see a video of how that affects gameplay before I'm convinced of anything. Remember that if he's that far away then his team has none of his weapons or heals for the battle. They are effectively 1 man down, and in exchange only get some nuisances to help them.
As for the targeting it's really only slightly worse than the fed mines, because they do follow you around, whereas if the feds leave the mines they become easier to target again.
As for lag, all I can say is update your drivers. I did, and it removed all lag from everywhere in the game. If you still have a problem with that setup (which dual nvidia cards?) then you have a very good point.
Is it in fact a true science vessel with all the perks of Fed Science vessels (subsystem targetting, stealth detection bonuses, bonus to AUX)?
aye they got subsystem targeting.
i render they forgot to put in the stealth detection and i didnt check the aux setting think they forgot that 2.
still facts remain its the klingon only sci vessel with sub targeting and the only vessel with a commander BO Sci slot wich makes it the only klingon sci ship.
Negvhars aren't science ships--the players piloting them can be. You don't recognize this as my point because...you are <explicit>? Grats you.
Ah, to beat the carriers I only need to target you.
Well Tab targeting is useless, because there are 50 smaller targets around you--and between you and me.
Click targeting is also useless, mostly because it never has worked correctly but also because again--there are 50 other targets between you and me.
I note the whining, and I laugh at the stupidity of it all.
Carriers are OP because of the bug exploits. I don't give a damn if the AI is terrible, if I could fire 10 photon torpedoes plus my 'helper' science BOP's torps and my own weapons--hey, I'd kick the TRIBBLE out of things too.
Add in the numerous debuffs science officers get, and yeah--it's not fun fighting Vo'Quz.
As far as my system goes--are you kidding? STO has some of the worst graphic optimizations in the industry. Have you played WoW at all? 5 billion little glow effects. STO? Kills my system. I'm well aware WoW is many years old--but if STO is just a reskin of CO, and CO still has serious framerate issues--what's it got to do with my PC? Which has a dual nvidia card setup, dual quad CPU's, dual HD, and 6 GB of ram. So it's not really my system, now is it? It's the game itself.
I don't get lag issues in any other game--period. In STO, I can't run at max during pvp, and with lots of carrier spam, I can't run at recommended.
I am unimpressed with the broken goodness of carriers. You can say they suck, but the truth is, they don't for many reasons.
When you can stop exploiting bugs, then we can talk about how poor they may or may not be with only a few ships rather than a swarm.
Anyone who says destroying the swarm is easy when you are debuffed, is just laughable.
here is a little shocker for you if they remove the so called bug you will still have 10 torps flying toward you and the carrier weps. bops and the others are only used for tab trash if they remove it the fighters still remain and then people will just put on a minelayer and you still got 50 targets to tab true.
dunno about your system trouble try a complete reinstall i got no problems with STO i can load in with 5 carriers full blob and still not get any lag running stuff at max to the max.
Oh, as for the 'just click on the carrier, stupid!' click-targetting in this game is... clunky at best. And when there's a swarm, hey, guess what, you're going to end up clicking on just about anything but the carrier.
Though, again, my computer was having a seizue trying to handle carriers, so maybe it works better with carriers than everything else in this game and my theory is wrong.
I cant speak to the loss of frame rate becuase I have as of yet to see one on action, but what I can say is that the carrier which is supposed to be the tier 5 science ship is under classed. Not only is it a TRIBBLE of a boat, and can not cloak. You dont have the ability to control your spawns very well and to top of the problems you are only given six wepons slots and can never use a science commander bridge officer skill. If you you compare the science ships on the fed side on their tier five ships and they have a lot more skills they can use and science commander skills as well. This needs to be fixed for the tier five science boat on the klink side
your wrong about the science bridge officer skill...the carrier has one LC tatical, one LC engineer, one LC science and one Lt science...you do not have access to any commander skills at all for the carrier.
your wrong about the science bridge officer skill...the carrier has one LC tatical, one LC engineer, one LC science and one Lt science...you do not have access to any commander skills at all for the carrier.
Ya, check out the stats...It has only LC slots and lower...to be specific you have one LC tactical, one LC engineer, one LC science and one LT science....the other problem is you only get six wepons slots on a platform which is supposed to be the largest beast on the block. You cant change out loads on the fly you have to be out of combat. Your turn rate sucks which I dont have a problem with but this carrier needs to be made more comprable to the abilities of a true science officer boat and allow comander skills for the science slots
Ya, check out the stats...It has only LC slots and lower...to be specific you have one LC tactical, one LC engineer, one LC science and one LT science....the other problem is you only get six wepons slots on a platform which is supposed to be the largest beast on the block. You cant change out loads on the fly you have to be out of combat. Your turn rate sucks which I dont have a problem with but this carrier needs to be made more comprable to the abilities of a true science officer boat and allow comander skills for the science slots
why would you be against death penalties. There should be some kind of loss from being killed. Wether its loss of items, loss of ship or some kind of debt/reward. It makes for smarter PVP play and at least for the PVP'r and myself I have no problem having to refit a ship or replace a ship if i get killed from going into a PVP instance
Challenge, you must be kidding. PVP is effortless for either side, if your team has a clue you win as most assuredly the other side doesn't. In CB/OB/Headstart & launch we might of had 5 matches against another competent team.
To your second point, this game is marketed to the lowest common denominator, everything is easy mode, NO death penalty, NO gear loss NO item decay, hell you even get to "win" when you lose. Wowbies don't want a challenge, they want Purple lewt and even they are getting bored with STO.
Hopefully Black Prophecy doesn't turn out to be a festering TRIBBLE.
The only way for me to find a challenge in this game in pvp is to pug with 'tards against tards and lead my tards to victory. Does that count for anything?
I'm wholeheartedly for death penalties and loot, but that ain't in the game. I'm usually found in games like eve, potbs, darkfall. You play what you have, y'know?
well thats really strange, because the stats on that carrier do not include a commander science skill. That info is coming from the shipyard on tier five ships and on other sites on the web on the klingon shp break down. I am looking at those stats right now and have written down what is available for bridge officer slots available so I wcould start planning how I would load those particular skills on my bridge officers. And when I saw that you did not get a commander skill avaialbe on your science bridge officer it was a bit of a concern...so if you could help me out can you provide a link or something showing me that you have a commander skill for your science bridge officer
why would you be against death penalties. There should be some kind of loss from being killed. Wether its loss of items, loss of ship or some kind of debt/reward. It makes for smarter PVP play and at least for the PVP'r and myself I have no problem having to refit a ship or replace a ship if i get killed from going into a PVP instance
Because death penalties aren't generally fun. Think about it, with the way things are and feds complaining how OP that or this is, do you really think that they'd stick around to learn something if there was a penalty? What about Klingon players? We don't get anything BUT PvP, so any time we lose there's a penalty as well? A penalty of LOSING gear or a ship?
Give me a break.
I don't mind minimal penalties, such as a drain on power for, say, 30 seconds (might even get the people who charge back into battle only to find a swarm of enemies to think twice), but anything on the scale that you're talking would kill PvP in this game. Come back when the Klingons are a fully fledged empire that can PvE like the feds and then you'll have a point. Until then we don't need to be scaring players away from PvP.
To the OP: About a week ago, I had a decent graphics card (8800GT) and carriers gave me absolutely no problem in regards to slow down, however that broke down and I had to buy a crappy 9500GT (which is still within minimum requirements) until I can make a bigger investment.
I had to set stuff to low, but the game still handles itself very well almost everywhere, with two exceptions.
Carriers... and Solar Wind map.
I can be in cracked planetoid with a good framerate, but as soon as a carrier pops into view it becomes rather meh.
Not sure why that happens, apart from some bug like we had with the slow down when the skills window was open (fixed already)
In the Solar Wind map, the slow down is so bad, it's really unplayable, so I basically never queue for that.
Can't wait to get a 280gt
As far as balance goes, carriers are fine. versus a good carrier pilot 1v1 it's normally a draw, or really easy win if he makes mistakes :P
I would think with as much complaining as the Feds are doing about cloak, they would welcome the carrier, any ship, that can't cloak. At least they'll always have a target.
I would think with as much complaining as the Feds are doing about cloak, they would welcome the carrier, any ship, that can't cloak. At least they'll always have a target.
I don't want to be snide, but some people complain about anything - because they are in a bad situation and having trouble succeeding. Instead of looking at the real causal factors they are blaming external factors.
I am not sure about the tactics other klingons use but for my group we use the cloake on our alpha strike and then after that we just chase /hunt down the fed and engage w/o using cloak...it comes down to team work and cross healing that typically wins the day...not the use of cloak. granted I do see some cross healing and team work involved with the feds, but it is sporadic at beast...typically once we kill the first fed ball they do not re-organize...they come in one at a time and hand themselves to us on a platter which becomes very easy to kill single targets when everyone in our group is focused on the one target. The feds need to stop complaining about cloak...they have a better cloak then the klinks but in my opinion if the feds stop using PVE tactics when they come to play PVP and learn how to cross heal each other and re-group before engaing the klinks they might have a better result and more time winning PVP fights. I am not sure about anyone else but I am tired of hearing from the fed side that the reason they loose is do to cloak which helps for the first initial alpha stike but does nothing once combat has begun...we cant cloak while we are shooting you. If you grouped with a science ship who uses the science powers and actively scanning for cloaked ships may be another tactic to help you feds get over the cloak issue. Yu cant come to PVP with a PVE mindset...and that is what I see up to tier 4 combat
I don't find that stement true at all...one of the richest PVP games out is eve and they have a massive death penalty if you die...its been changed a bit with the insurance but you still loose your ship, your items and id not careful the personal items on you if your pod killed. They seem to have no problem at all with a death penalty. I will concede that it may be a bit early since the klingon side is not on par with content, but I knew going in to my klingon that for now I was stricktly PVP game play only. I still would not have a problem with some kind of death penalty from me either being dumb about attaking 2-5 on 1 or not being more carefull on my role in the group on my selection of tactical/engineer/science...PVP is and should always be a group effort. My talents and skills need to complement the group not the self.
I don't find that stement true at all...one of the richest PVP games out is eve and they have a massive death penalty if you die...its been changed a bit with the insurance but you still loose your ship, your items and id not careful the personal items on you if your pod killed. They seem to have no problem at all with a death penalty. I will concede that it may be a bit early since the klingon side is not on par with content, but I knew going in to my klingon that for now I was stricktly PVP game play only. I still would not have a problem with some kind of death penalty from me either being dumb about attaking 2-5 on 1 or not being more carefull on my role in the group on my selection of tactical/engineer/science...PVP is and should always be a group effort. My talents and skills need to complement the group not the self.
Yes, but when you go play eve you know that it's PvP AND has a large penalty. There is no (to my knowledge) strictly PvE areas there, or at least very few. You can be attacked anywhere.
This isn't the game that Star Trek wants to be and that's obvious by the style of PvP it has. You have to kill 15 opponents to win. In Eve, it's just open. It's not an arena where you are pretty much expected to possibly die 15 times in quick succession.
Star Trek wants to cater to all sorts of players, even ones like me who would never touch eve because of the massive death penalties.
So you have people like me who aren't hardcore PvPers like those who play Eve. Introduce a big penalty and all of the people like me stop playing PvP. Less feds, less Klingons. There is already a dearth of PvP players, particularly on the Klingon side, and we shouldn't implement anything that will make that worse.
What is your fascination of shooting everything but the carrier? it's right next to you and you cannot merely click on it? Your view was not impeded by drones at all yet you do not shift your target.
THIS everyone is why certain people cry nerf on carriers, not because they're over-powered but because they're dreadful at the game.
Comments
Is it in fact a true science vessel with all the perks of Fed Science vessels (subsystem targetting, stealth detection bonuses, bonus to AUX)?
Let's see:
Negvhars aren't science ships--the players piloting them can be. You don't recognize this as my point because...you are <explicit>? Grats you.
Ah, to beat the carriers I only need to target you.
Well Tab targeting is useless, because there are 50 smaller targets around you--and between you and me.
Click targeting is also useless, mostly because it never has worked correctly but also because again--there are 50 other targets between you and me.
I note the whining, and I laugh at the stupidity of it all.
Carriers are OP because of the bug exploits. I don't give a damn if the AI is terrible, if I could fire 10 photon torpedoes plus my 'helper' science BOP's torps and my own weapons--hey, I'd kick the TRIBBLE out of things too.
Add in the numerous debuffs science officers get, and yeah--it's not fun fighting Vo'Quz.
As far as my system goes--are you kidding? STO has some of the worst graphic optimizations in the industry. Have you played WoW at all? 5 billion little glow effects. STO? Kills my system. I'm well aware WoW is many years old--but if STO is just a reskin of CO, and CO still has serious framerate issues--what's it got to do with my PC? Which has a dual nvidia card setup, dual quad CPU's, dual HD, and 6 GB of ram. So it's not really my system, now is it? It's the game itself.
I don't get lag issues in any other game--period. In STO, I can't run at max during pvp, and with lots of carrier spam, I can't run at recommended.
I am unimpressed with the broken goodness of carriers. You can say they suck, but the truth is, they don't for many reasons.
When you can stop exploiting bugs, then we can talk about how poor they may or may not be with only a few ships rather than a swarm.
Anyone who says destroying the swarm is easy when you are debuffed, is just laughable.
Thanks for the Vid its nice to see - A little audio chat would have been gr8 too
I have a couple observations though.
Without comparing the Carrier stats or abilities - The Feds in this battle weren't even in group ! which sort of suggests they weren't on any kind of audio chat system either (Vent - Teamspeak etc) Was there any target calling on the Feds side at all ?
I would wager on a 5 team of Captains using Vent and working together in a group against 5 Admirals out of group and not using Vent. I will also guess that the healing on the Fed team was all Self healing only ??
Whilst the Thread is about the Vo'Quv I feel that whilst pretty and entertaining, the actual Youtube vid sadly shows that the Feds in this battle just weren't pulling together and deserved to get spanked on this occasion regardless of ship class on the other team. :rolleyes:
Basically what I think of your long winded whine. Carrier swarms are beaten with AoE skills. Even easier is to attack the carriers themselves. It has only been deemed a bug by the community , not the developers , who have not addressed the issue in any of the patches since CB except to increase cooldown time from 30 seconds to 1 minute on fighters.
Yes , though not sure on stealth detection.
Ok, I'm a little confused here. This video doesn't really show me what the problem is. The Vo'Quv was in battle, and you dispatched it with relative ease. Then another guy shows up, who looks like he's doing far better than the Vo'Quv, especially since you continued to fire on him all the way through his RSP, and still you took him out. Then a couple of Klingons teamed up on you and the Vo'Quv had barely enough time to get to the fight to help finish you off. His fighters never made it there.
Reading the numbers at the end was hard for me to do, so I'm not sure what they were, but without seeing the whole battle it's hard to say what really happened. You said the group wasn't good... can't that be the reason why you lost here? Can you show us a full battle report where you're in a good team to show us how the carrier is unreasonable?
And to those who say it's a bug to be able to spawn all of those fighters, I have yet to be shown any evidence in that respect. You don't have fighters, so saying that swapping your gear doesn't work has no bearing on the fighters. They can't swap the same gear you have, only the fighters, and only out of combat. I fail to see how it doesn't make sense that a carrier can load different sets of fighters to launch them.
Sending your fighters in from 25k away may sound cheezy, but given how bad they are supposed to be I'd have to see a video of how that affects gameplay before I'm convinced of anything. Remember that if he's that far away then his team has none of his weapons or heals for the battle. They are effectively 1 man down, and in exchange only get some nuisances to help them.
As for the targeting it's really only slightly worse than the fed mines, because they do follow you around, whereas if the feds leave the mines they become easier to target again.
As for lag, all I can say is update your drivers. I did, and it removed all lag from everywhere in the game. If you still have a problem with that setup (which dual nvidia cards?) then you have a very good point.
aye they got subsystem targeting.
i render they forgot to put in the stealth detection and i didnt check the aux setting think they forgot that 2.
still facts remain its the klingon only sci vessel with sub targeting and the only vessel with a commander BO Sci slot wich makes it the only klingon sci ship.
here is a little shocker for you if they remove the so called bug you will still have 10 torps flying toward you and the carrier weps. bops and the others are only used for tab trash if they remove it the fighters still remain and then people will just put on a minelayer and you still got 50 targets to tab true.
dunno about your system trouble try a complete reinstall i got no problems with STO i can load in with 5 carriers full blob and still not get any lag running stuff at max to the max.
yeah it has a commander slot, i can check when i get home but im 99,9% sure it has a commander slot.
Suricata's charts started wong (especially on the Klingon ships), but have gotten progressively more correct. Some things are still wrong, though.
Though, again, my computer was having a seizue trying to handle carriers, so maybe it works better with carriers than everything else in this game and my theory is wrong.
It does have commander slot.
It has a commander slot. I pilot one.
The only way for me to find a challenge in this game in pvp is to pug with 'tards against tards and lead my tards to victory. Does that count for anything?
I'm wholeheartedly for death penalties and loot, but that ain't in the game. I'm usually found in games like eve, potbs, darkfall. You play what you have, y'know?
Because death penalties aren't generally fun. Think about it, with the way things are and feds complaining how OP that or this is, do you really think that they'd stick around to learn something if there was a penalty? What about Klingon players? We don't get anything BUT PvP, so any time we lose there's a penalty as well? A penalty of LOSING gear or a ship?
Give me a break.
I don't mind minimal penalties, such as a drain on power for, say, 30 seconds (might even get the people who charge back into battle only to find a swarm of enemies to think twice), but anything on the scale that you're talking would kill PvP in this game. Come back when the Klingons are a fully fledged empire that can PvE like the feds and then you'll have a point. Until then we don't need to be scaring players away from PvP.
To the OP: About a week ago, I had a decent graphics card (8800GT) and carriers gave me absolutely no problem in regards to slow down, however that broke down and I had to buy a crappy 9500GT (which is still within minimum requirements) until I can make a bigger investment.
I had to set stuff to low, but the game still handles itself very well almost everywhere, with two exceptions.
Carriers... and Solar Wind map.
I can be in cracked planetoid with a good framerate, but as soon as a carrier pops into view it becomes rather meh.
Not sure why that happens, apart from some bug like we had with the slow down when the skills window was open (fixed already)
In the Solar Wind map, the slow down is so bad, it's really unplayable, so I basically never queue for that.
Can't wait to get a 280gt
As far as balance goes, carriers are fine. versus a good carrier pilot 1v1 it's normally a draw, or really easy win if he makes mistakes :P
Just be prepared for a long fight.
Sort of like a carrier, but a carrier for the team. As it were.
(Yes, you can do this a bit with science vessels)
I don't want to be snide, but some people complain about anything - because they are in a bad situation and having trouble succeeding. Instead of looking at the real causal factors they are blaming external factors.
That said, devs need to fix the basic bugs.
Yes, but when you go play eve you know that it's PvP AND has a large penalty. There is no (to my knowledge) strictly PvE areas there, or at least very few. You can be attacked anywhere.
This isn't the game that Star Trek wants to be and that's obvious by the style of PvP it has. You have to kill 15 opponents to win. In Eve, it's just open. It's not an arena where you are pretty much expected to possibly die 15 times in quick succession.
Star Trek wants to cater to all sorts of players, even ones like me who would never touch eve because of the massive death penalties.
So you have people like me who aren't hardcore PvPers like those who play Eve. Introduce a big penalty and all of the people like me stop playing PvP. Less feds, less Klingons. There is already a dearth of PvP players, particularly on the Klingon side, and we shouldn't implement anything that will make that worse.
What is your fascination of shooting everything but the carrier? it's right next to you and you cannot merely click on it? Your view was not impeded by drones at all yet you do not shift your target.
THIS everyone is why certain people cry nerf on carriers, not because they're over-powered but because they're dreadful at the game.