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Control/Drain bridge officer abilities (but not)

corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 2,331 Arc User
edited July 2023 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
I started digging deeper into the Checkmate starship trait to see which abilities do or don't trigger it and found some strange inconsistencies. At first, I didn't think several intel abilities triggered it, but some do. And some 'control' themed abilities don't. Which got me to thinking -- how many bridge officer abilities have control or drain effects but don't count as control or drain abilities for the purposes of traits and secondary deflectors? Moreover, what determines if an ability is a 'control' or a 'drain'? From what I can tell, 'Control' classified abilities impedes the target's operation or movement -- movement speed reduction, confuse, placate, disable, hold, pull or repel. Drain abilities, reduce a ship's effectiveness or power -- subsystem power drain, shield drain, resistance reduction, weapon damage, subsystem disable.

Which brings to light a bunch of inconsistencies -- there are abilities which clearly fall into one category or the other or even both. Very Cold In Space is clearly a control ability, reducing flight speed and friction (inertia). Chronometric Inversion Field is both and a control and a drain, reducing the target's damage (drain) and flight speed (control). For that matter, Ionic Turbulence is already a control ability, but it is also a drain ability, reducing the target's damage resistances. To that end, I've compiled a list of abilities that fall into either (or both) of these categories in the hopes that some kind of consistency can be applied to their interactions with all other game systems. Some of them are already handled properly. Some of them aren't properly classified as both. Some just aren't classified as either and should be one or both.

Control
  • Tractor Beam
  • Jam Targeting Sensors
  • Delayed Overload Cascade
  • Very Cold in Space
  • Heisenberg Amplifier
  • Evade Target Lock
  • Viral Impulse Burst
  • Null Pointer Flood
  • Deploy Countermeasures
  • Scramble Sensors
  • Electromagnetic Pulse Probe
  • Kinetic Magnet
  • Clean Getaway
  • Gravity Well
  • Photonic Shockwave
  • Tractor Beam Repulsors
  • Chronometric Inversion Field
  • Viral Matrix
  • Eject Warp Plasma
  • Emit Unstable Warp Bubble
  • Timeline Collapse
  • Deploy Gravitic Induction Platform
  • Coolant Ignition
  • Subspace Boom

Drain
  • Tachyon Beam
  • Let it Go
  • Structural Analysis
  • Evade Target Lock
  • Charged Particle Burst
  • Destabilizing Resonance Beam
  • Energy Siphon
  • Tyken's Rift
  • Emit Unstable Warp Bubble
  • Chronometric Inversion Field
  • Gravimetric Conversion
  • Rapid Decay
  • Shared Fate
  • Kinetic Magnet
  • Ionic Turbulence
  • Overwhelm Power Regulators
  • Aceton Beam
  • Viral Matrix
  • Subnucleonic Carrier Wave
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on

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    chastity1337chastity1337 Member Posts: 1,606 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    First let me say good work, well done, thank you.
    Second, let me ask, are these just lists of which BOFF powers would seem to belong in which category? You're not actually telling us (yet) which, for example, trigger the corresponding Secondary Deflectors?
    I have, in past, gotten a massive ration of (stinky stuff) for my use of Inhibiting Secondary Deflectors rather than the Deteriorating. I choose as I do because it parses better with my GW3/VCIS3 build, but the conventional wisdom goes the other way. As always, YMMV
    Post edited by chastity1337 on
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    nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    First, thanks for the work. but the lists are not verified, correct? some of those abilities should not be control or drain like photonic shockwave. in fact I'd say a good 60% plus of those abilities were added to the game AFTER the checkmate power was created, so they probably will not trigger the SecDefs, and it's probably good that way. with some of the abilities listed, adding the damage from a secDef trigger would REALLY get the PvPers crying Science is OP. would I welcome them all to work. oh, and you missed Subspace Vortex on the control list, and at least for me it's like the second most damaging ability to my EPG ship
    u7acy6aymfw7.gif
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    chastity1337chastity1337 Member Posts: 1,606 Arc User
    VCIS3 alone does not trigger Inhibiting SecDef. I determined this in testing this afternoon.
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    foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    The wiki is usually pretty accurate on these, but I do agree things are not consistent nor obvious. The only thing that can be done is keep the wiki accurate.

    As for the debate between inhibiting and deteriorating, the big downside of deteriorating is that it takes ten seconds to do maximum damage.

    Inhibiting takes 4s to do any damage at all, and is typically on slower recharge things.

    So if things aren't lasting 10s, but at least 4, inhibiting becomes a real consideration.
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    pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    corinthalas wrote: »
    “From what I can tell, 'Control' classified abilities impedes the target's operation or movement -- movement speed reduction, confuse, placate, disable, hold, pull or repel. Drain abilities, reduce a ship's effectiveness or power -- subsystem power drain, shield drain, resistance reduction, weapon damage, subsystem disable.”
    There is an extra step which defines if it’s classed as control or drain or not. Slow by itself is not always control likewise damage reduction is not always drain. The only time slow counts as control are when the duration or magnitude is modifiable via control. If its not modifiable then its not a Control. Same for drain if the ability is not modifiable it is not classed as drain. Some powers have a fixed value in which case they are not control or drain.
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    phoenixc#0738 phoenixc
    phoenixc#0738
         Member Posts: 5,507 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    corinthalas wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    corinthalas wrote: »
    If they're dying that fast, you didn't the secdef anyway. But a deteriorating secdef has the advantage of dealing damage *immediately*. Over a longer duration, yes, but if something dies before the inhibiting can trigger, then it's doing you no good.

    And, at 4 seconds (when the inhibiting goes off), the deteriorating has already done more damage than it does.

    Yes, but it's also triggered by abilities you would otherwise never include in your build (other than by people who think drain skills are useful; they're not). So while it's numerically superior, it comes with tradeoffs.

    Those tradeoffs could be why it is numerically superior and not nerfed. And since a drainboat or hybrid drainboat will generally take longer to chew an enemy down, getting the full duration is not that unusual unless someone else with a burstier build kills it.
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    pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    corinthalas wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    corinthalas wrote: »
    If they're dying that fast, you didn't the secdef anyway. But a deteriorating secdef has the advantage of dealing damage *immediately*. Over a longer duration, yes, but if something dies before the inhibiting can trigger, then it's doing you no good.

    And, at 4 seconds (when the inhibiting goes off), the deteriorating has already done more damage than it does.

    Yes, but it's also triggered by abilities you would otherwise never include in your build (other than by people who think drain skills are useful; they're not). So while it's numerically superior, it comes with tradeoffs.
    Speaking of never include in your build. I don't disagree on drain builds never being useful as they are rather poor compared to other options. Though I am working on a ..... not even sure what to call it as its not a typical drain build. Its a Breen Carrier with shield drain pets which are boosted by ship DrainX along with it being a projectile boat with 3 types of shield drain mines to do AoE shield drain followed by Phase torp for more wide area shield Drain. Due to the way everything stacks shield drain hits first then large kinetic damage hits targets with no shields. Along with all the Breen ship stuff. Trying to get DrainX as high as possible and not really done enough looking into the best options of traits. So far it appears to be working well compared to more typical drain builds that I find only really hit limited ships. This builds hits a gravity well and drains every ship in an AoE. Add in the Reverberation so if something somehow survives the shield drain projectiles its shield are knocked offline anyway. With 1000 ish DrainX if I manage that it should get interesting.

    EDIT: Doing this more for fun as a themed build. Rather then expecting it to be amazing.
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    doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 1,189 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    corinthalas wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    corinthalas wrote: »
    If they're dying that fast, you didn't the secdef anyway. But a deteriorating secdef has the advantage of dealing damage *immediately*. Over a longer duration, yes, but if something dies before the inhibiting can trigger, then it's doing you no good.

    And, at 4 seconds (when the inhibiting goes off), the deteriorating has already done more damage than it does.

    Yes, but it's also triggered by abilities you would otherwise never include in your build (other than by people who think drain skills are useful; they're not). So while it's numerically superior, it comes with tradeoffs.
    Speaking of never include in your build. I don't disagree on drain builds never being useful as they are rather poor compared to other options. Though I am working on a ..... not even sure what to call it as its not a typical drain build. Its a Breen Carrier with shield drain pets which are boosted by ship DrainX along with it being a projectile boat with 3 types of shield drain mines to do AoE shield drain followed by Phase torp for more wide area shield Drain. Due to the way everything stacks shield drain hits first then large kinetic damage hits targets with no shields. Along with all the Breen ship stuff. Trying to get DrainX as high as possible and not really done enough looking into the best options of traits. So far it appears to be working well compared to more typical drain builds that I find only really hit limited ships. This builds hits a gravity well and drains every ship in an AoE. Add in the Reverberation so if something somehow survives the shield drain projectiles its shield are knocked offline anyway. With 1000 ish DrainX if I manage that it should get interesting.

    EDIT: Doing this more for fun as a themed build. Rather then expecting it to be amazing.

    I got a build close to that since a year or two now and while its doing ok in terms on damage output it never comes close to my epg builds. Its great if you build it as a supporter but as a standalone it will take longer to kill stuff.

    Also instead of Reverberation I would use Carrier Wave Shield Hacking goes well with tractor beam and intel bridge officer skills.
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    pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    Thanks for the tip on Carrier Wave Shield Hacking, will look into that.
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    wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,728 Arc User
    It always irks me when things don't work as stated, or at all in a lot of Cryptics cases. It would be nice if more things did what they're supposed to, or if the numbers were more accurate on the info notes.


    Regardless, this was a great spot and I'll have to look into it on my own sci build, so thank you.
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