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wraithshadow13
Member Posts: 1,728 Arc User
Does it actually DO anything?
Playing around with the consoles and the covert phasers, versus my tankiest character rolling extra threat and i can't really see a whole lot of difference. More so, if you're the type to just spam fire at anything that moves.
Is that just my experience or is it so negligible that it might as not be there?
I would be curious to see if there is an actual issue here or if it's just something i'm missing meta wise.
Playing around with the consoles and the covert phasers, versus my tankiest character rolling extra threat and i can't really see a whole lot of difference. More so, if you're the type to just spam fire at anything that moves.
Is that just my experience or is it so negligible that it might as not be there?
I would be curious to see if there is an actual issue here or if it's just something i'm missing meta wise.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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In your case, I'm baffled as to why you're combining a high threat build with covert phasers which reduce threat. Maybe you can explain what you were trying to do and where you were testing?
Well, it does things, certainly, but every increased threat method you use is replacing something that increased damage dealt, and your total damage dealt, increased by threat improvement methods, needs to outpace the damage dealt by the DPSers on your team that have put absolutely everything into dealing staggering amounts of damage. A tank build needs to compensate for anything they spend on surviving, and everything they spend on improved threat.
If you're playing with people you know and they're dying a lot, then it'll work to have them use reduced threat resources while you use increased threat resources, and not have them focus fire on something that will turn around and kill them until you've built up threat. Most of the time, however, its a bit of a waste of time to do anything but have everyone dish out the big damage.
The threat increase stuff is just not as large as the general threat increases in other MMOs, and there's nowhere near as many hard taunts or anything. STO is not a tank-healer-dps game... you can make tank builds and healing builds, but they're more a novelty than something that is genuinely useful (and I know I risk the wrath of nerds who are proud of their builds by saying so, but it is what it is).
The most widely useful builds will be ones that deal as much damage as possible with just enough survivability to avoid dying while you do it, unless you're building to be a nanny for a teammate who is gunning to set a new high score in ISA or what not.
Wow.. ok, that is a lot of misinformation to attempt to digest.
Threat works fine, and no you don't need to match DPS with other team members, that would be silly. What you need is high threat mixed with a method to 'tag' opponents to get them to focus on you. The amount of damage you do is not really a huge factor, you just can't be grossly underpowered. This is why 'tanks' traditionally roll with very high DPS team mates, you definitely need your team to out DPS you. The best method is to have someone tanking/de-buffing while the others in your group are full on 'glass cannon' DPS relying on you to keep attention so they don't pop.
I am far from a tanking expert, but I have tanked for some really high DPS players and I can tell you it works fine. You will need a ship that has access to the attract fire cruiser command and it's also a good thing to make sure you turn on threatening stance. You will need to do some damage to keep things 'angry' at you, throw in Fire At Will to spread the love around and then add in things like Suppression Barrage to reduce enemy attacks or Concentrate Firepower if your team is running torps. I have done runs with @peterconnorfirst where I had 90%+ of Attacks In, while being the lowest overall DPS on the team. The idea that you have to outpace the rest of the team in DPS is frankly just silly. My favorite ship for this is the Terran Styx Dreadnaught, it has a great setup for tanking Elites.
As pointed out though, it does nothing when flying solo.. there is absolutely no point in running high threat when you're the only target anyway. It's a mechanic used purely for teamed content. If you're flying solo then no.. it does nothing, but that should be obvious.
Like I said... wrath of nerds - typically the type who skim then rage without bothering to take the time to understand what was said.
You didn't read what I said. The damage you do, modified by the increased threat, needs to outpace the dps of other teammates in order to maintain agro... so the damage you're doing, multiplied by the threat modifiers, needs to be higher than their damage which requires that the damage you sacrifice by committing resources to threat and survivability (consoles, traits, whatever) that the other players likely commit to increasing their DPS needs to be at least compensated for by your increased threat.
Yes, it is silly, which is why you're the only person who has actually said it. You need to outpace the rest of the team in threat (or effective damage), which is your actual damage modified by your various threat modifiers.
The only time I think about my threat generation is when I am running a EBC torp build. Running a build that actively decreases threat allows me to target a single enemy, fly in, drop a bunch of HY plasma torps, watch them go boom, and fly away, all without attracting the attention of nearby enemies.
I would not worry with threat consoles much OP. What works a bit in favor of tanking is that few besides tanks use the fire mode fire at will at the DPS front at the moment.
That one is a huge threat generator compared to the rest and since tanks do their poo for cannon, torpedo and exotic players for the most part threat is child’s play to implement.
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Yeah, this for sure.
My 'Tank' is my Styx, I have 2 load outs saved on that ship, a DPS load out and a Tank Load Out.
Console wise I swap out the Lorca Console for the reiterative structural capacitor, that's the only difference. I don't use any +threat consoles, don't need them. The big differences between the 2 load outs are the BoFF layout and the Primary and Secondary specializations.
Those +Threat consoles might help.. I don't know, I have never had the need to use them. I can generate plenty of threat without them, so why bother?
A few seasons ago it was different as DPSer often put on threatening stance to increase DPS via traits like improved feedback pulse, AP delta prime and to get some CD reduction from the strategist tree. Also everybody used FAW. Tanks needed additional threat gear in form of embassy consoles or the AP delta doffs to compensate.
All of it is out of date so the only reason to put on threatening stance nowadays if one actually wants to tank.
When we did that 796k ISE run for my Jem toon both you and Kyle were tanking. Worked flawlessly even though you guys only did like 15-20% of that DPS. It’s really fascinating considering how often we tell peeps how important it is to have some DPS on your own as a tank.
One does but the threatening stance in combination with some mild team coordination is the much stronger tool here.
In any case OP, threat „does“ a lot.
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And yes there's times when tanking does matter.
Is there anyway to actually SEE the threat generation numbers? I'm always warry of the UI numbers, as those always seemed iffy, with unseen modifiers, soft/hard caps, and diminishing returns, but i also know some things like the [BORG] modifiers never worked anyway.
With the information here, what should i focus on more? Doing more DPS AS my tank or doing less DPS AS my dps, so they can have more heal capacity?
-FAW: use that one as it is the fire mode that generates the most threat. All beam types work though ba‘ul have a potent advantage via refractions leading even beyond 10km.
-threat stance activated (with the respective point in the skill tree selected) + attract fire cruiser command is suffice. On top of that „History will remember“ is #1 tanking trait. On ships without attract fire a single threat console if at all could be installed.
-DPRM, RSP with the doff that extends duration, Energy refrequencer, nakuhl heal or ap beta heal doff and one of the following consoles: reiterative structural capacitor, protomatter field projector, console from the Europa.
-1-2 personal trait and skill tree points spent for self sustaining.
That’s pretty much it. Rest is the standard stuff from DPS/FAW ships.
Now you will run into situations where it seems this is not enough. There could be other tanks on map competing for agro or your team is not playing along as it moves beyond 10km. I advise against building your ship for that as it would leave you weaker in situations where peeps play along. You will also notice that in weak teams you need more heals than in strong teams. On the other hand in weak teams you get agro more easy than in strong teams. Both of that is normal. You can only min max for that when you know with who you run often. If you do not one has to live with this variation. Not that this is bad as it keeps tanking interesting. I love it when I overestimate my team, play too aggressively as tank and then get my butt kicked.
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Maybe add sustainability to my dps and more dps or support focus to my tank then?
General consensus seems to be the consoles aren't "doing nothing" but more likely not needed, so i should disregard them (consoles specifically) all together?
Personally haven't found the threat reducer necessary. As tank, I do have 1 threat gain console. Anecdotally it seems to help, as even if I'm doing way less total damage than teammates I can still keep on top.
I can also tank ground rather well. If you're threatening but not getting noticed as much as teammates, they are likely doing lots more damage.
That said, Terok Nor is a bad example. There are several enemies there that seem to ignore threat. My best tank cannot pull attention off the NPC technicians, and controlling Leeta is difficult in a good day.
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> Dumb question on my part then, but should i just DITCH the threat consoles (both+/-) all together then?
>
> Maybe add sustainability to my dps and more dps or support focus to my tank then?
>
> General consensus seems to be the consoles aren't "doing nothing" but more likely not needed, so i should disregard them (consoles specifically) all together?
I kept one of em on my tanks for a very long time till I gave up.
With non tank DPS builds not using threat adjusting consoles there is no need for u to use them as tank.
Im my opinion threat stance and the respective cruiser command is suffice to grab threat from players that emit 5 times as much DPS than the tank does.
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I might ditch it soon, but for now, I feel like it makes a difference when I need to keep aggro on my 75k DPS tank when I have 300k Vaad Juggs. But again, it's all anecdotal.
Besides, nothing pulls threat like a Shield Generator or the Kobayashi Maru device.
Assuming the the raw and simplified notion of your threat is equal to your DPS (it should be noted that is very simplified notion and generally you have other factors to consider as well) just turning on threating stance means the DPS would have to do 3 times the DPS you do to pull aggro (assuming you pull aggro when you have more then 100% of the threat of the person who has aggro at this point, in WoW it was 125+% threat needed to pull aggro for ranged and I think FF14 has it similar).
true but my point was that even with mere threating stance it takes decent DPS to pull aggro from a tank in STO and that's ignoring all the other passive and active buffs the tank or DPS might have that affect aggro.
Most DSP won't really other reliable ways of doing threat besides damage so as a really rough estimate the DPSer would have to do 3 times the DPS of the tank just to reach the same threat numbers as a tank with threating stance on (assuming no other buffs or traits). With boosts from traits and abilities a tank could most likely reach as high as 500% threat effectively (some of those would be reduction of threat for nearby DPSers rather then boost to the tank's threat but the overall effect in regards to holding aggro is the same).
Why I brought up WoW and FF14 was to show that merely reaching the tank's threat might not be enough to draw aggro and you might actually exceed it by rather significant margin.
Sounds like you had a pretty special and intimate relationship with this tank.
Just for my own personal reference, what IS the time frame on that, a single month proper? So many days specifically?
As for everything else, Very valid, so thank you for the input. I'll just skip the consoles for now and focus better on the builds. I also had them for the plasma dot but yeah, i can just focus on the build a bit more.
Thank you, all, again.