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The Lost Honour.
patrickngo
Member Posts: 9,963 Arc User
before Discovery stripped the Klingons of pretty much...everything that made them cool and turned them into generic lizardape baddies in fetish costumes, there was, at least in a segment of hte fan population, an understanding of what hte underpinning of "Klingon Honor" is.'
it isn't what you think, Klingons don't actually value 'fairness' all that highly. What they value, is 'willing to go to the wall'. IOW, if you weren't willing to fight for a belief, then by Klingon standards, either the belief has no value, or you don't have any value.
More to the point, if you're not willing to die to prove you're right, then, you're wrong, or you're (worse) wrong about what you believe.
in this fashion...
a Klingon Pacifist, may oppose wars of conquest, but if he's not willing to fight, or to die to oppose them, his belief is false-he doesn't really believe in it, or worse he's a coward who doesn't really believe in it.
this principle is demonstrated in the DS9 episode "House of Quark", where Quark wins, n ot by 'winning' a fight against a superior foe, but by standing his ground and accepting that yes, he may well die, but he believed so strongly in what he was saying that death was acceptable as an alternative to recanting. It's a far better lens into what made Klingons appealing, than anything else-the sheer importance of one's conviction is proof of Honour. "He's willing to die because he's right...well, maybe he has a point?" it's far stronger than "Well, he makes persuasive arguments, but he isn't willing to go to the wall, so he doesn't believe, ergo, it's probably false, he's a liar, and he's a coward."
This mirrors a lot of 'red state' culture right here. someone unwilling to fight or die for their beliefs, doesn't hold those beliefs with any seriousness, and neither should anyone else.
It's undeniably alien to Hollywood's actual culture, which is all about projecting an illusion, the illusion, for example, of tolerance or freedom via 'virtue signalling' and pretending to care about 'causes' in order to be taken 'seriously'.
with a Klingon, it's a very simple equation; you oppose my actions, are you willing to put your life on the line? if you aren't, then your opposition is without merit.
It might not be 'right', but it's what we were presented with, back when Klingons had hair and weren't wrapped in full-body latex tournequets, wheezing and whispering their lines like an asthmatic intern reading the weekly sales report for a failing mini-mart chain.
Interestingly, the Wondercon panel the designers talked about how "Bird and lizard like Klingons are" in the source material...no, they really aren't.
they're more WOLF LIKE than resembling birds, or lizards. but they had to justify their changes somehow, since they're pretty much entrenched in Fuller's version now, the Klingork is the future of Klingons in Star Trek, all previous versions, including the ones that appealed to people who aren't snake-furries, are obsolete.
so here's a toast, to the lost basis of Klingon Honor. TRIBBLE you CBS, TRIBBLE you very much.
it isn't what you think, Klingons don't actually value 'fairness' all that highly. What they value, is 'willing to go to the wall'. IOW, if you weren't willing to fight for a belief, then by Klingon standards, either the belief has no value, or you don't have any value.
More to the point, if you're not willing to die to prove you're right, then, you're wrong, or you're (worse) wrong about what you believe.
in this fashion...
a Klingon Pacifist, may oppose wars of conquest, but if he's not willing to fight, or to die to oppose them, his belief is false-he doesn't really believe in it, or worse he's a coward who doesn't really believe in it.
this principle is demonstrated in the DS9 episode "House of Quark", where Quark wins, n ot by 'winning' a fight against a superior foe, but by standing his ground and accepting that yes, he may well die, but he believed so strongly in what he was saying that death was acceptable as an alternative to recanting. It's a far better lens into what made Klingons appealing, than anything else-the sheer importance of one's conviction is proof of Honour. "He's willing to die because he's right...well, maybe he has a point?" it's far stronger than "Well, he makes persuasive arguments, but he isn't willing to go to the wall, so he doesn't believe, ergo, it's probably false, he's a liar, and he's a coward."
This mirrors a lot of 'red state' culture right here. someone unwilling to fight or die for their beliefs, doesn't hold those beliefs with any seriousness, and neither should anyone else.
It's undeniably alien to Hollywood's actual culture, which is all about projecting an illusion, the illusion, for example, of tolerance or freedom via 'virtue signalling' and pretending to care about 'causes' in order to be taken 'seriously'.
with a Klingon, it's a very simple equation; you oppose my actions, are you willing to put your life on the line? if you aren't, then your opposition is without merit.
It might not be 'right', but it's what we were presented with, back when Klingons had hair and weren't wrapped in full-body latex tournequets, wheezing and whispering their lines like an asthmatic intern reading the weekly sales report for a failing mini-mart chain.
Interestingly, the Wondercon panel the designers talked about how "Bird and lizard like Klingons are" in the source material...no, they really aren't.
they're more WOLF LIKE than resembling birds, or lizards. but they had to justify their changes somehow, since they're pretty much entrenched in Fuller's version now, the Klingork is the future of Klingons in Star Trek, all previous versions, including the ones that appealed to people who aren't snake-furries, are obsolete.
so here's a toast, to the lost basis of Klingon Honor. TRIBBLE you CBS, TRIBBLE you very much.
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Go have a Snickers.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
On point and in all seriousness. I talked to you about this very subject once before Patrickngo, I did not see it then, but I see it now. The more I looked at the new klingons, the more I saw how sad of a image they had become. More to the point, what you said about Hollywood I believe nails it perfectly. Lets look at a prime example. The first new star trek movie in which JJ shot the star trek universe straight to hell. Lets look at what was targeted in that movie right of the bat. The Romulan STAR EMPIRE... I do not believe that was a accident or oversight, especially when one considers the RSE was the last unexplored frontier of the original star trek. Despite players asking to play as the RSE in star trek online, cryptic went right for the Romulan Republic faster then a speeding bullet. Now and days they will trash any IP to paint a picture of a set of ideals, heck they will trash any group or thought to paint a picture of a set of ideals.
There may be hope for klingons though. Keep in mind we saw our first TNG klingon in star trek the motion picture, it was not until Enterpirse, and DS9 that this change in appearance lore wise was explained. So it possible and highly unlikely, that cbs will wise up and attempt a repair job on this mess some time down the road. Given what we saw with Enterprise and DS9 on the same subject. In the meantime I plan to ignore the Discovery Klingons as if they do not exist, just as I did with the first new star trek film. Really in the end thats all you can do. Right now directors are way too eager to trash old successful IPS in the name of some itch they want to scratch. Sadly Star trek is not the only IP I have seen this sort of thing in.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
It is that we are old and have learned to watch quietly. We know better than get in the way of foolishness...to stand in the front lines of "progressiveness" (in this case, the front lines being: the STO Forums 10 Forward section).
It is not on us to guide the fandom or the producers and those who are easily swayed by commercialism back. Nor reveal to their eyes: to see where they go...it is empty.
And those who know truly in their hearts what Star Trek is....will know they are deceived.
+++++++++++++
I have said my peace about Discovery...and I am done. I don't like the new TV that the Star Trek Discovery is...it does not speak to me. It is too dark and a cheap thrill. It is not "my" Star Trek. I quit watching the TV show or following it in any way, shape or form. I will live through this and adapt.
Though, looking back, I guess, maybe the "Old Guard" is being too quiet.
We are watching those younger and more rash (and a bit rant-y) "warriors" with amusement. We are all remiss to a point. We are not supporting those "with fire in their souls". Be they right or wrong or fools on a never ending quest, they are still the ones who choose to stand for Klingons.
And this keeps returning like rancid gagh....it is eating us away from within.
So, though Patrickngo's methods are a bit lacking in sense and shows some very bad judgement....I assume, from the few of the long rants that I have bothered to read, that his sentiments comes from the right place. And goes the general direction I am heading toward.
I will call Patrickngo "my brother in arms" for he is Klingon but.....expect me to disown you should you be in the way.
I will, also, eschew the traits I already own.....and I will SHUN any vanity items in STO that comes along (ships, boffs, costumes) with Star Trek Discovery Klingons.
qapla'
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Patrickngo, as always you make the point about "what is Honour" absolutely spot on. But I give Discovery's writing staff a bit more credit than that; the point about honesty and being willing to die for your beliefs is what distinguishes the "hero" Klingons - T'kuvma, Voq and L'rell - from "villain" Klingons, epitomized by the cynicism of Kol. The former put the welfare of their people above their own, and when T'kuvma chooses to light the fire of a war which will (he hopes) unite the Klingon empire, he does so by leading the battle from the front. I also think Discovery did the "diversity" thing extremely well, by the simple dint of not making a fuss about it. You could have changed the ethnicities and genders of any of the principles and the plot would not have changed significantly.
As it stands, the other point is that Discovery is pretty well taking place at the intended nadir of the Klingon Empire - the downward trend hinted at in Enterprise has clearly continued, and the upwards trend towards the Klingons of TNG / DS9 hasn't yet happened. I'm interested to see where the narrative goes (we know L'rell and Ash / Voq will be back next season) and whether we see some move back towards TOS style designs - if this show lasts they will have plenty of time for the evolution.
Overall, though, I think those that advocate some sort of "resistance to the new" are rather missing the point; the alternative is not that the studio execs will see the light and make another DS9, it's that the whole shebang will remain firmly dead. I'm slowly getting used to the new makeup designs - mainly helped by the fact that Mary Chieffo, as the only cast member who's had time to really get used to the makeup, absolutely nails it in the later episodes. Meanwhile Shazad Latif also brings us the benefit of Klingon shaped by someone who's fluent in a non-European language; his switch when Voq reasserts control is probably the most terrifying use of the language to date.
So we'll see. I can be optimistic and enjoy what's good in the new offering, or mourn for a past that is never going to come back. I'll take the former, thanks, and as to my thoughts on the game's offerings... may I present my latest Klingon crew:
It's become iconic, i think, because it's a brilliant design - Matt Jefferies hitting the mark again - and because of the ensuing decade where it was the only Klingon ship design.
https://trekmovie.com/2018/03/24/7-things-we-learned-about-star-trek-discovery-season-2-at-wondercon-visionaries-panel/
HR Giger styled reptile avians. That is totally what I remember about the TOS Klingons. I liked the part where Kor burst from Kirk's chest screaming "Qapla!". Spock tried to kill Kor with a flamethrower, but he escaped into a ventilation shaft. Good times.
Heh, that's simply trolling the fans I'd say
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What???? OMG!
Server, I'll have what he is having, please.
Nah....that didn't happen. I would have been scarred for life if I saw that as a kid.
Besides, would never make it past the main TV censor at my house...my Mom.
And my Dad was watching TOS with us....so, pretty sure Mom rules were being followed....
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
So obviously, when they "looked through the lens of cannon" they saw reptile avians with HR Giger designs. I'm certain Kor had acidic blood. Wasn't that the inspiration for a major plot point in Star Trek: Into Darkness?
A lot like the Clans vs the Inner Sphere in Battletech. Much was based off the Mongols, Indians, or the Japanese for the Clans.
After seeing what TRIBBLE did to the Klingons, I don't think there's going to be a cure in the new series to fix that. Future with great medical advances my ***!
Nothing. They want to shape the big name "Star Trek" to something carrying their own signature. Each and every change made is purely for aesthetic reasons and there will not be any "canon explanation" as there isn't one.
You are supposed to see DSC's aliens and immediately recognize "Star Trek Discovery". That's why almost every show had different uniforms and recognizable ship, that's why they created new ships for the later movies just so the audience wouldn't possibly confuse any of the ships displayed. DSC is the same, they just went the extra mile looking at shows currently successful and scavenging elements of that. And seemingly, they did everything right and landed a big success.
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No, as it's stated, even in game. The feudal system is fairly new to the Empire. It began sometime around the Enterprise era. So, it's only a few hundred years old.
The main thing to remember here, is between the time of Kahless and the feudal Empire, or rise of the warrior caste. KLingons were respectful and honorable to every member of the Empire. Farmers were treated with the same amount of honor as warriors. I'd have to say one of the changing points to this was the Klingon-Romulan war. The rise of the warrior caste and great houses are a part of the feudal system.
If you want to be a klingon, or KDF citizen, that knows what true honor is. Then forget the Council, forget the Great Houses, forget that warriors are more honorable than anyone else. Remember here, you're a warrior, but that bekk is the one that fixes your gear and your ship. As I said in my First City speech, "Warriors are the Blood of the Empire. The Citizens are the Heart of the Empire." One cannot exist without the other. Then remember, "There is nothing more important to a klingon than the Empire."
Now to breakdown the mindset of a klingon, takes a bit. You have to look at four different areas of earth to do it.
First off, we look at how things are. The basis of this are the Samurai and Feudal Japan. The honor does not come from here. Just the caste and house system. Which is where one get the servitude to a House from.
But, for a warrior society, then one needs to look away from Japan. The best warrior society one can look at for this is Spartans. The only society that saw male and females as warriors. Sure, they had slavery. But a Spartan slave could fight and win their freedom. Just like in Klingon society, honorable combat is a form of advancement. This... was never a part of the Samurai or Feudal Japan.
For a look at the Empire itself, we look to the Roman Empire. Where warrior and citizen were treated pretty much the same. Like the Spartans here, Roman used the King/Emperor and Council/Senate setup. Because the Klingon Empire and Roman Empire have one thing in common, no one is above the law. From Emperor to slave in Rome, everyone was treated fairly equally under the law. It's also where one can pick up the political maneuvering that one would expect from a klingon. One could also look toward ancient China for this as well.
For the guile of a warrior, the ingenuity and adaptive nature the klingons show in combat, as well as politics. One has to look toward the Native Americans. This covers the more hunter style of combat we saw in the klingons, especially in TOS. Because when it comes to being some crafty devils in combat, there is none better. Especially in the hit and run and setting traps and ambushes for the enemy. Gowron would be a good example of this. His off the wall way of doing things fits perfectly with this.
To top this off, one can throw Vikings in there was well. Mainly for their views on space(sea) travelling, and the drinking, Can't forget the drinking.
Another thing to think about here comes from Gowron, "If it's for the Empire, how can it be dishonorable?" So while Gowron was a bit of a nutcase, most of everything he did was for the Empire. The main thing about this is that there is nothing more important than the Empire, and that your actions represent the Empire. So one has to consider if what they're doing honors the Empire or not. Your honor and your House's honor amount to a pile of targ manure, when it comes to the Empire.