> @sophlogimo said:
> azrael605 wrote: »
> [...]
> What the heck are you talking about?
> About you being dogmatic and unimaginative. You are basically saying in 1700 that no human being will ever fly because no one ever flew. And while the latter was true, the former was obviously nonsense.
Well of thats what you actually meant, which I doubt, your still wrong. I'm not talking about some hypothetical future I'm talking about right here & now in the real world & I provided rock solid examples. Sure maybe in 20 to 50 years real AI can do PGC that doesn't become repetitive, but in 2018 nobody can & thats just reality.
I've seen games that did randomized maps well.... But only maps. The problem with exploration clusters was the randomized STORY attached. That is something no one has ever managed to make work.
[...]I've seen games that did randomized maps well.... But only maps. The problem with exploration clusters was the randomized STORY attached. That is something no one has ever managed to make work.
How many actual attempts have you seen?
Randomized STORY missions? STO's the only game I've seen that tried it.
Not many. I remember Red Baron (1) back in the early 90s that did randomized missions - the general structure and objectives of a certain mission type would be the same, but the opposition and the terrain would vary. So one day, you'd go blow up an allied balloon and have to deal with some AAA fire, and another, you'd encounter some British ace defending the baloon, etc, and sometimes it would be above an active battle, some ither times it would be above a quiet zone with a rather difficult front shape, etc.
That did indeed create enough variation to be entertaining.
I'd agree. Hack & Slay games with randomly generated maps like Diablo are also sources of endless replayability, even if levels only feature a certain variance in mobs and layout in addition to the infinite combinations of magic items that can drop (another thing STO does not have, at all). 4X games exist just because of the randomly generated maps, even though the gameplay is always exactly the same. Every game in a "Total War" title like Shogun or Warhammer is more or less the same, but different events and AI moves create a completely different campaign.
Random variation, not knowing exactly what you will face every time you play, is a powerful thing to extend some games' longevity by a long time.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Not many. I remember Red Baron (1) back in the early 90s that did randomized missions - the general structure and objectives of a certain mission type would be the same, but the opposition and the terrain would vary. So one day, you'd go blow up an allied balloon and have to deal with some AAA fire, and another, you'd encounter some British ace defending the baloon, etc, and sometimes it would be above an active battle, some ither times it would be above a quiet zone with a rather difficult front shape, etc.
That did indeed create enough variation to be entertaining.
I'd agree. Hack & Slay games with randomly generated maps like Diablo are also sources of endless replayability, even if levels only feature a certain variance in mobs and layout in addition to the infinite combinations of magic items that can drop (another thing STO does not have, at all). 4X games exist just because of the randomly generated maps, even though the gameplay is always exactly the same. Every game in a "Total War" title like Shogun or Warhammer is more or less the same, but different events and AI moves create a completely different campaign.
Random variation, not knowing exactly what you will face every time you play, is a powerful thing to extend some games' longevity by a long time.
I'm still waiting for an example of a decent random-story generator. THAT was the real problem with the old exploration cluster missions. Sure, the objectives could have been made more interesting by adding complexity to them, but if they'd had the same paper thin story they'd have still been boring.
Also part of why Diablo works is because the terrain is actually modular. This isn't guesswork, I used to be a Diablo 2 modder. The game has a bunch of prebuilt objects that it puts down, then it draws paths connecting them to each other. There's a lot of variation, but there's a reason that the randomly placed houses look the same. Also when D2 fills in empty space with random junk after drawing paths, most of that random junk is basically empty space.
And since you mentioned 4X... I'm also a Space Empires 5 modder. Randomization in that game has.... layers. So it never actually spits out fully randomized junk. Also, it has no story. People have written stories based on games they've played. But It doesn't actually have a story mode.
> @markhawkman said: > angrytarg wrote: » > > sophlogimo wrote: » > > Not many. I remember Red Baron (1) back in the early 90s that did randomized missions - the general structure and objectives of a certain mission type would be the same, but the opposition and the terrain would vary. So one day, you'd go blow up an allied balloon and have to deal with some AAA fire, and another, you'd encounter some British ace defending the baloon, etc, and sometimes it would be above an active battle, some ither times it would be above a quiet zone with a rather difficult front shape, etc. > > That did indeed create enough variation to be entertaining. > > > > I'd agree. Hack & Slay games with randomly generated maps like Diablo are also sources of endless replayability, even if levels only feature a certain variance in mobs and layout in addition to the infinite combinations of magic items that can drop (another thing STO does not have, at all). 4X games exist just because of the randomly generated maps, even though the gameplay is always exactly the same. Every game in a "Total War" title like Shogun or Warhammer is more or less the same, but different events and AI moves create a completely different campaign. > > Random variation, not knowing exactly what you will face every time you play, is a powerful thing to extend some games' longevity by a long time. > > > > I'm still waiting for an example of a decent random-story generator. THAT was the real problem with the old exploration cluster missions. Sure, the objectives could have been made more interesting by adding complexity to them, but if they'd had the same paper thin story they'd have still been boring. > > Also part of why Diablo works is because the terrain is actually modular. This isn't guesswork, I used to be a Diablo 2 modder. The game has a bunch of prebuilt objects that it puts down, then it draws paths connecting them to each other. There's a lot of variation, but there's a reason that the randomly placed houses look the same. Also when D2 fills in empty space with random junk after drawing paths, most of that random junk is basically empty space. > > And since you mentioned 4X... I'm also a Space Empires 5 modder. Randomization in that game has.... layers. So it never actually spits out fully randomized junk. Also, it has no story. People have written stories based on games they've played. But It doesn't actually have a story mode.
I disagree here, since the clusters weren't about story, it was about gameplay NOT tied to the story almost everyone in STO plays through countless times. I don't need a story here really. A story is written by creative minds, not algorithms. We already have episodes for that.
Modular design works for me as long as the terrain provides some variety to give a fresh feeling. As I said before, Diablo's strength was the loot first and foremost, not the level design. But it was nice enough to not get boring as you couldn't walk the same level in your sleep at least.
I don't miss a story when I play MoO, Birth of the Federation or civilization. I "write" it myself and enjoy the gameplay. When I play UFO the story is always the same but entering the missions I find levels that are at least so random I have to recon and make use of the terrain - the remake, while fun, lost A LOT of replayability by using fixed maps in which only spawn points and enemy types could vary.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I disagree here, since the clusters weren't about story, it was about gameplay NOT tied to the story almost everyone in STO plays through countless times. I don't need a story here really. A story is written by creative minds, not algorithms. We already have episodes for that.
Heh, I agree that the clusters did what they did reasonably well, but.... was it good? The devs decided it wasn't.
> @markhawkman said: > angrytarg wrote: » > > I disagree here, since the clusters weren't about story, it was about gameplay NOT tied to the story almost everyone in STO plays through countless times. I don't need a story here really. A story is written by creative minds, not algorithms. We already have episodes for that. > > > > Heh, I agree that the clusters did what they did reasonably well, but.... was it good? The devs decided it wasn't.
I think it was good, but of course it showed it's age. The game mode hasn't had any kind of improvement since launch, including the diplomatic "first contact" missions. I think the devs ditched it because there wasn't enough time and resources for it.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
> @markhawkman said: > Randomized STORY missions? STO's the only game I've seen that tried it. > > How many have YOU seen?
Lolwut? Those weren't randomized story missions, they were randomized "quest board" sidequests the same as X or Escape Velocity or a gajillion other games, except with worse sanity-checking.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Lolwut? Those weren't randomized story missions, they were randomized "quest board" sidequests the same as X or Escape Velocity or a gajillion other games, except with worse sanity-checking.
In practice, yes. But they presented themselves as story missions. There was all this story text explaining why you were shooting random dudes in the woods or poking at rocks...for those who cared to read them.
I'd presume someone thought simply telling players to go to planet Random and kill a bunch of stray randomians in the middle of nowhere with no explanation wouldn't be consistent with the franchise theme. For the Feds at least.
> @markhawkman said:
> angrytarg wrote: »
>
> I disagree here, since the clusters weren't about story, it was about gameplay NOT tied to the story almost everyone in STO plays through countless times. I don't need a story here really. A story is written by creative minds, not algorithms. We already have episodes for that.
>
> Heh, I agree that the clusters did what they did reasonably well, but.... was it good? The devs decided it wasn't.
I think it was good, but of course it showed it's age. The game mode hasn't had any kind of improvement since launch, including the diplomatic "first contact" missions. I think the devs ditched it because there wasn't enough time and resources for it.
First contact missions were basically mad-libs dialog puzzles.
Also they never fixed the random exploration mission because they couldn't. Each one would have needed to be tinkered with separately. Any real improvements would basically have required recreating it from scratch.
Lolwut? Those weren't randomized story missions, they were randomized "quest board" sidequests the same as X or Escape Velocity or a gajillion other games, except with worse sanity-checking.
In practice, yes. But they presented themselves as story missions. There was all this story text explaining why you were shooting random dudes in the woods or poking at rocks...for those who cared to read them.
I'd presume someone thought simply telling players to go to planet Random and kill a bunch of stray randomians in the middle of nowhere with no explanation wouldn't be consistent with the franchise theme. For the Feds at least.
Yeah, and that's standard: I presume a quest giver in WOW isn't going to tell you "fetch me twenty bear asses because I said so", they're going to say "fetch me twenty bear asses so I can make barbecue for the baron's birthday" or some such. The only difference is how much QA curation is done on the quest log outputs so they make a lick of sense *cough* Borg Third Dynasty *cough cough*.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Lolwut? Those weren't randomized story missions, they were randomized "quest board" sidequests the same as X or Escape Velocity or a gajillion other games, except with worse sanity-checking.
In practice, yes. But they presented themselves as story missions. There was all this story text explaining why you were shooting random dudes in the woods or poking at rocks...for those who cared to read them.
I'd presume someone thought simply telling players to go to planet Random and kill a bunch of stray randomians in the middle of nowhere with no explanation wouldn't be consistent with the franchise theme. For the Feds at least.
Yeah, and that's standard: I presume a quest giver in WOW isn't going to tell you "fetch me twenty bear asses because I said so", they're going to say "fetch me twenty bear asses so I can make barbecue for the baron's birthday" or some such. The only difference is how much QA curation is done on the quest log outputs so they make a lick of sense *cough* Borg Third Dynasty *cough cough*.
The standard is a line or two of something generic like that. There was a lot more text in the cluster missions. I doubt they do much more "curation" of the outputs in other games, either, it's just several pages of text has much more room for bloopers than "barbecue for the baron's birthday."
Ironically, the Third Dynasty of the Borg was the funniest and most interesting thing in there.
Lolwut? Those weren't randomized story missions, they were randomized "quest board" sidequests the same as X or Escape Velocity or a gajillion other games, except with worse sanity-checking.
In practice, yes. But they presented themselves as story missions. There was all this story text explaining why you were shooting random dudes in the woods or poking at rocks...for those who cared to read them.
I'd presume someone thought simply telling players to go to planet Random and kill a bunch of stray randomians in the middle of nowhere with no explanation wouldn't be consistent with the franchise theme. For the Feds at least.
Yeah, and that's standard: I presume a quest giver in WOW isn't going to tell you "fetch me twenty bear asses because I said so", they're going to say "fetch me twenty bear asses so I can make barbecue for the baron's birthday" or some such. The only difference is how much QA curation is done on the quest log outputs so they make a lick of sense *cough* Borg Third Dynasty *cough cough*.
The standard is a line or two of something generic like that. There was a lot more text in the cluster missions. I doubt they do much more "curation" of the outputs in other games, either, it's just several pages of text has much more room for bloopers than "barbecue for the baron's birthday."
Ironically, the Third Dynasty of the Borg was the funniest and most interesting thing in there.
No it wasn't. The survey missions occasionally had inappropriate props. One I remember rather fondly had me cataloguing exotic plants..... that looked like marble columns.
Lolwut? Those weren't randomized story missions, they were randomized "quest board" sidequests the same as X or Escape Velocity or a gajillion other games, except with worse sanity-checking.
In practice, yes. But they presented themselves as story missions. There was all this story text explaining why you were shooting random dudes in the woods or poking at rocks...for those who cared to read them.
I'd presume someone thought simply telling players to go to planet Random and kill a bunch of stray randomians in the middle of nowhere with no explanation wouldn't be consistent with the franchise theme. For the Feds at least.
Yeah, and that's standard: I presume a quest giver in WOW isn't going to tell you "fetch me twenty bear asses because I said so", they're going to say "fetch me twenty bear asses so I can make barbecue for the baron's birthday" or some such. The only difference is how much QA curation is done on the quest log outputs so they make a lick of sense *cough* Borg Third Dynasty *cough cough*.
The standard is a line or two of something generic like that. There was a lot more text in the cluster missions. I doubt they do much more "curation" of the outputs in other games, either, it's just several pages of text has much more room for bloopers than "barbecue for the baron's birthday."
Ironically, the Third Dynasty of the Borg was the funniest and most interesting thing in there.
No it wasn't. The survey missions occasionally had inappropriate props. One I remember rather fondly had me cataloguing exotic plants..... that looked like marble columns.
Oh yeah, I remember that.
I kinda feel like some of the nonsense story issues (or inappropriate props) could have been fixed, and they could have let their Genesis Machine produce new missions and replace all the old ones.
But the real technical issue were probably the creation of the map itself. They weren't always successful in making "sane" or "playable" maps, and the only way to deal with it up was manually identifying them and cleaning them up per hand, or just delete them. And they require a ton of space in the client, because they are just like any other mission map. Generating on the fly might be preferable, but realistically, this also consumes a lot of computing resources on the server (presuming that they can't trust the client to do it all for fear of exploits). And if the process can't reliably generate playable maps, then it's no use either way, because you either produce a lot of dead weight you need to prune, or you generate a non-working mission on the fly the player can't actually complete. And even f the mission is working, it could still look like sh*t, destroying immersion and making the game look bad.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
But we need to stay fair here. Just like some people accuse others of rose tinted glasses versions of the clusters they aren't as bad as it's always stated. For instance the infamous "third Borg dynasty" only existed in one cluster under specific circumstances. Yes, having Borg in the table that chose the dynasty in the flufftext was an oversight. But chances are some of the people quoting it never actually saw it. Same with underground mobs. I played a lot of cluster missions. Yes untargetable mobs or mission objectives spawning underground happened. But far from every other mission, it was actually quite rare, plus the exact same thing can happen in featured episodes as well.
The clusters were neither perfect nor unusable. It was something in between.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
But the real technical issue were probably the creation of the map itself. They weren't always successful in making "sane" or "playable" maps, and the only way to deal with it up was manually identifying them and cleaning them up per hand, or just delete them. And they require a ton of space in the client, because they are just like any other mission map. Generating on the fly might be preferable, but realistically, this also consumes a lot of computing resources on the server (presuming that they can't trust the client to do it all for fear of exploits). And if the process can't reliably generate playable maps, then it's no use either way, because you either produce a lot of dead weight you need to prune, or you generate a non-working mission on the fly the player can't actually complete. And even f the mission is working, it could still look like sh*t, destroying immersion and making the game look bad.
This is probably the only way we'd end up with a return of Genesis. If we were to somehow merge it with Foundry. But realistically, how much value would that add?
But we need to stay fair here. Just like some people accuse others of rose tinted glasses versions of the clusters they aren't as bad as it's always stated. For instance the infamous "third Borg dynasty" only existed in one cluster under specific circumstances. Yes, having Borg in the table that chose the dynasty in the flufftext was an oversight. But chances are some of the people quoting it never actually saw it. Same with underground mobs. I played a lot of cluster missions. Yes untargetable mobs or mission objectives spawning underground happened. But far from every other mission, it was actually quite rare, plus the exact same thing can happen in featured episodes as well.
The clusters were neither perfect nor unusable. It was something in between.
The clusters were okay until the missions started repeating themselves, which happened very fast because they were short and mechanically simple. That was the main problem with them, along with the fact they had little to do with actual exploration. The borg dynasties etc were just funny bloopers to laugh at if you noticed them.
But we need to stay fair here. Just like some people accuse others of rose tinted glasses versions of the clusters they aren't as bad as it's always stated. For instance the infamous "third Borg dynasty" only existed in one cluster under specific circumstances. Yes, having Borg in the table that chose the dynasty in the flufftext was an oversight. But chances are some of the people quoting it never actually saw it. Same with underground mobs. I played a lot of cluster missions. Yes untargetable mobs or mission objectives spawning underground happened. But far from every other mission, it was actually quite rare, plus the exact same thing can happen in featured episodes as well.
The clusters were neither perfect nor unusable. It was something in between.
The clusters were okay until the missions started repeating themselves, which happened very fast because they were short and mechanically simple. That was the main problem with them, along with the fact they had little to do with actual exploration. The borg dynasties etc were just funny bloopers to laugh at if you noticed them.
I think people forget that when STO was released it was under a HUGE time constraint to get finished by a certain date. Due to Perpetual's lies and embezzlement, 3 out of the 5 years to develop the game were tossed in the trash. Cryptic stepped up and got it done in 2 years, just beating the deadline - thanks to the engine already in use for Champions.
THAT is the reason everything felt rushed and only partially polished - including the Genesis system.
If they had had more time, I'm sure the little quirks would have been worked out (mobs spawning under terrain, third Borg dynasty, etc.) But they were forced to release it in a bare minimum working state - otherwise there might never have even been an STO if the deadline hadn't been met.
Now that they do have the time to make Genesis better (*cough* just like the Foundry *cough*) the PW overlords have them working on more direct money making projects.
"Exploration" wasn't removed. Randomly generated content was removed. Those two terms do not mean the same thing. For example: New Romulus is almost all "exploration". On the other hand, a star cluster mission where you fight the Klingons (a known species) attacking a federation colony (a known world) is not "exploration". So no, randomly generated content was not "exploration". That said, the game is sorely lacking things LIKE New Romulus, IMO. They need to add many more adventure zones on "newly discovered" planets.
Hey look; the very best post of the entire thread is sitting right there on page 1. Star clusters were never "exploration", so bringing them (or anything like them) "back" has nothing to do with "exploration".
So here is the deal. I was here on day one. Exploration was generic maps, and the combat maps had endless amounts of npcs. Not so great, however the real reason it was removed from the game was to eventually tie R&D to the cash store. Prior to the removal the exploration zones not only could you gear from the exploration zone marks, but you could also gear up by farming R&D mats. Yes some people abused it by afk farming, what else is new, but many of us did not afk farm.
STO has had mega improvements from that time, however it is a cash game only. The factions you play all end up at one point running a clearly fed point of view. End game requires upgrading, which is expensive to say the least, when you account for all your parts on your ship. Dilithium is required is huge amounts, again another turn around tied to the RL cash. Dont let the apologist fool you, the amounts needed require special mining permits from lock boxes. The only other real option is the exchange for zen/dilithium. Now they want to release the dominion. To what end? So ends up being another storyline that ends up running from a clearly fed point of view, so content costs is cut down?
Truth this game has allot to offer as far as content, but its far too twisted by way of star trek for my tastes. If they ever went back to sub, killed Lifetime subscription, separated the factions fully, and killed the cash drains. Id be back in game fast. So no in the end unless they decide to do a huge turn around. You wont be seeing the Genesis project in game ever again.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
How many have YOU seen?
My character Tsin'xing
I'd agree. Hack & Slay games with randomly generated maps like Diablo are also sources of endless replayability, even if levels only feature a certain variance in mobs and layout in addition to the infinite combinations of magic items that can drop (another thing STO does not have, at all). 4X games exist just because of the randomly generated maps, even though the gameplay is always exactly the same. Every game in a "Total War" title like Shogun or Warhammer is more or less the same, but different events and AI moves create a completely different campaign.
Random variation, not knowing exactly what you will face every time you play, is a powerful thing to extend some games' longevity by a long time.
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the trailer said its time to be explorers again
2 episodes l8er we had another war
Also part of why Diablo works is because the terrain is actually modular. This isn't guesswork, I used to be a Diablo 2 modder. The game has a bunch of prebuilt objects that it puts down, then it draws paths connecting them to each other. There's a lot of variation, but there's a reason that the randomly placed houses look the same. Also when D2 fills in empty space with random junk after drawing paths, most of that random junk is basically empty space.
And since you mentioned 4X... I'm also a Space Empires 5 modder. Randomization in that game has.... layers. So it never actually spits out fully randomized junk. Also, it has no story. People have written stories based on games they've played. But It doesn't actually have a story mode.
My character Tsin'xing
> angrytarg wrote: »
>
> sophlogimo wrote: »
>
> Not many. I remember Red Baron (1) back in the early 90s that did randomized missions - the general structure and objectives of a certain mission type would be the same, but the opposition and the terrain would vary. So one day, you'd go blow up an allied balloon and have to deal with some AAA fire, and another, you'd encounter some British ace defending the baloon, etc, and sometimes it would be above an active battle, some ither times it would be above a quiet zone with a rather difficult front shape, etc.
>
> That did indeed create enough variation to be entertaining.
>
>
>
> I'd agree. Hack & Slay games with randomly generated maps like Diablo are also sources of endless replayability, even if levels only feature a certain variance in mobs and layout in addition to the infinite combinations of magic items that can drop (another thing STO does not have, at all). 4X games exist just because of the randomly generated maps, even though the gameplay is always exactly the same. Every game in a "Total War" title like Shogun or Warhammer is more or less the same, but different events and AI moves create a completely different campaign.
>
> Random variation, not knowing exactly what you will face every time you play, is a powerful thing to extend some games' longevity by a long time.
>
>
>
> I'm still waiting for an example of a decent random-story generator.
>
> Also part of why Diablo works is because the terrain is actually modular. This isn't guesswork, I used to be a Diablo 2 modder. The game has a bunch of prebuilt objects that it puts down, then it draws paths connecting them to each other. There's a lot of variation, but there's a reason that the randomly placed houses look the same. Also when D2 fills in empty space with random junk after drawing paths, most of that random junk is basically empty space.
>
> And since you mentioned 4X... I'm also a Space Empires 5 modder. Randomization in that game has.... layers. So it never actually spits out fully randomized junk. Also, it has no story. People have written stories based on games they've played. But It doesn't actually have a story mode.
I disagree here, since the clusters weren't about story, it was about gameplay NOT tied to the story almost everyone in STO plays through countless times. I don't need a story here really. A story is written by creative minds, not algorithms. We already have episodes for that.
Modular design works for me as long as the terrain provides some variety to give a fresh feeling. As I said before, Diablo's strength was the loot first and foremost, not the level design. But it was nice enough to not get boring as you couldn't walk the same level in your sleep at least.
I don't miss a story when I play MoO, Birth of the Federation or civilization. I "write" it myself and enjoy the gameplay. When I play UFO the story is always the same but entering the missions I find levels that are at least so random I have to recon and make use of the terrain - the remake, while fun, lost A LOT of replayability by using fixed maps in which only spawn points and enemy types could vary.
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My character Tsin'xing
> angrytarg wrote: »
>
> I disagree here, since the clusters weren't about story, it was about gameplay NOT tied to the story almost everyone in STO plays through countless times. I don't need a story here really. A story is written by creative minds, not algorithms. We already have episodes for that.
>
>
>
> Heh, I agree that the clusters did what they did reasonably well, but.... was it good? The devs decided it wasn't.
I think it was good, but of course it showed it's age. The game mode hasn't had any kind of improvement since launch, including the diplomatic "first contact" missions. I think the devs ditched it because there wasn't enough time and resources for it.
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> Randomized STORY missions? STO's the only game I've seen that tried it.
>
> How many have YOU seen?
Lolwut? Those weren't randomized story missions, they were randomized "quest board" sidequests the same as X or Escape Velocity or a gajillion other games, except with worse sanity-checking.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I'd presume someone thought simply telling players to go to planet Random and kill a bunch of stray randomians in the middle of nowhere with no explanation wouldn't be consistent with the franchise theme. For the Feds at least.
Also they never fixed the random exploration mission because they couldn't. Each one would have needed to be tinkered with separately. Any real improvements would basically have required recreating it from scratch.
My character Tsin'xing
Yeah, and that's standard: I presume a quest giver in WOW isn't going to tell you "fetch me twenty bear asses because I said so", they're going to say "fetch me twenty bear asses so I can make barbecue for the baron's birthday" or some such. The only difference is how much QA curation is done on the quest log outputs so they make a lick of sense *cough* Borg Third Dynasty *cough cough*.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Ironically, the Third Dynasty of the Borg was the funniest and most interesting thing in there.
My character Tsin'xing
I kinda feel like some of the nonsense story issues (or inappropriate props) could have been fixed, and they could have let their Genesis Machine produce new missions and replace all the old ones.
But the real technical issue were probably the creation of the map itself. They weren't always successful in making "sane" or "playable" maps, and the only way to deal with it up was manually identifying them and cleaning them up per hand, or just delete them. And they require a ton of space in the client, because they are just like any other mission map. Generating on the fly might be preferable, but realistically, this also consumes a lot of computing resources on the server (presuming that they can't trust the client to do it all for fear of exploits). And if the process can't reliably generate playable maps, then it's no use either way, because you either produce a lot of dead weight you need to prune, or you generate a non-working mission on the fly the player can't actually complete. And even f the mission is working, it could still look like sh*t, destroying immersion and making the game look bad.
The clusters were neither perfect nor unusable. It was something in between.
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My character Tsin'xing
I think people forget that when STO was released it was under a HUGE time constraint to get finished by a certain date. Due to Perpetual's lies and embezzlement, 3 out of the 5 years to develop the game were tossed in the trash. Cryptic stepped up and got it done in 2 years, just beating the deadline - thanks to the engine already in use for Champions.
THAT is the reason everything felt rushed and only partially polished - including the Genesis system.
If they had had more time, I'm sure the little quirks would have been worked out (mobs spawning under terrain, third Borg dynasty, etc.) But they were forced to release it in a bare minimum working state - otherwise there might never have even been an STO if the deadline hadn't been met.
Now that they do have the time to make Genesis better (*cough* just like the Foundry *cough*) the PW overlords have them working on more direct money making projects.
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
Hey look; the very best post of the entire thread is sitting right there on page 1. Star clusters were never "exploration", so bringing them (or anything like them) "back" has nothing to do with "exploration".
STO has had mega improvements from that time, however it is a cash game only. The factions you play all end up at one point running a clearly fed point of view. End game requires upgrading, which is expensive to say the least, when you account for all your parts on your ship. Dilithium is required is huge amounts, again another turn around tied to the RL cash. Dont let the apologist fool you, the amounts needed require special mining permits from lock boxes. The only other real option is the exchange for zen/dilithium. Now they want to release the dominion. To what end? So ends up being another storyline that ends up running from a clearly fed point of view, so content costs is cut down?
Truth this game has allot to offer as far as content, but its far too twisted by way of star trek for my tastes. If they ever went back to sub, killed Lifetime subscription, separated the factions fully, and killed the cash drains. Id be back in game fast. So no in the end unless they decide to do a huge turn around. You wont be seeing the Genesis project in game ever again.