Historical battles

theraven2378 · November 2017

It would be epic to recreate the Iconic battles of trek history, battles like Operation Return or First Chin'Toka for examples

peterconnorfirst · November 2017

Yes

I'd love it.

theraven2378 · November 2017

reyan01 wrote: »

Mixed feelings. Some of them would work better than others.

Wolf 359 immediately springs to mind. That one would have to be a no-win scenario - and how would players who are VERY used to curbstomping the Borg in two minutes or less respond to that?

Do what the Borg do, adapt

disqord · November 2017

Yes

I'd be totally on board with this, 100%.

Funny thing is, we used to have a mission where Q would put you on a ship in the battle of Wolf 359 to fight the borg (I think, info is a little hazy).

peterconnorfirst · November 2017

Yes

reyan01 wrote: »

theraven2378 wrote: »

reyan01 wrote: »

Mixed feelings. Some of them would work better than others.

Wolf 359 immediately springs to mind. That one would have to be a no-win scenario - and how would players who are VERY used to curbstomping the Borg in two minutes or less respond to that?

Do what the Borg do, adapt

Most probably would. But some, I suspect, wouldn't.

The problem with Wolf 359 is that it pretty much has to be a no-win scenario - a 'see how long you last against an unstoppable foe' battle. How would players feel about that?

Na, depends on the type of Borg ship. Unimatrix ships not to mention the Diamond aren’t exactly one shoted either given their mad amount of hit points in addition to their frequent use of powers. The player faces them in battles which take place in 2409/10 and only few teams that assemble in STO are fit enough to handle those opponents on elite.

Now I could imagine for an historic battle at Wolf 359 a single cube could be easily modified to better reflect Starfleet’s highly limited capabilities when dealing with the Borg back at that day.

burstorion · November 2017

Yes

It could be a memorial mission

Like irl Vets and so on go to schools, ect to talk of their lives; this could be the same thing; giving captains an (simulated) experience of the battle of Wolf 359; the cube 'tweaked' to simulate the power of the cube in comparison to the ships of the time when it was first encountered (which could be pretty fun as it'd visually be tweaked in size to make the manillaprise look small to fit the idea)

or go the full reenaction route and supply a ship of each class (selected at the start) for that mission set up in a canonical style (with proper setups, such as beams/torps, cannons/torps, tactical, science, engineer centric and so on)

theraven2378 · November 2017

Give historical battles period authentic rewards like weapons or ship unlocks. Would be a perfect way of bringing in ships like the New Orleans.

thay8472 · November 2017

Yes

make a wolf 359 mission and throw us into TNG era ships ... the last player to survive gets the 'first prize' reward.

theraven2378 · November 2017

That works

jonsills · November 2017

No

To make it "historically" accurate, you'd have to take away the player's ship and give them one appropriate to that period. I can hear the screams of anguish already. "I spent so much time/$X making my ship just perfect! And now you want to take it away from me??!?!!!??"

burstorion · November 2017

Yes

jonsills wrote: »

To make it "historically" accurate, you'd have to take away the player's ship and give them one appropriate to that period. I can hear the screams of anguish already. "I spent so much time/$X making my ship just perfect! And now you want to take it away from me??!?!!!??"

Hence why I suggested the cube be a simulation so they can use their ship but the cube is so powerful its near impossible to defeat, adapting to the enemy dps (ie, if everyones running mk xiv gold beams, its hull/damage is scaled to be a legitimate threat)

alexraptorr · November 2017

No

Pointless, as STO's combat system wouldn't make it the least bit "historical".

warpangel · November 2017

On the fence

Maybe, but with STO's current difficulty level I can't see canon battles being anything but shooting galleries.

jonsills wrote: »

To make it "historically" accurate, you'd have to take away the player's ship and give them one appropriate to that period. I can hear the screams of anguish already. "I spent so much time/$X making my ship just perfect! And now you want to take it away from me??!?!!!??"

I'd say no to prebuilt ships. Be better if you had to get a historically accurate ship and equipment yourself.

That it's at all possible to build a ship that's "just perfect" for every content is a huge failure in my book.

reyan01 wrote: »

wrote: »

That's the point though - to be accurate we shouldn't be able to do significant damage to it. The Wolf 359 cube was absolutely unstoppable at the time. If the mission is to be 'historical' then it should be one that we don't 'win' as such (though as said, having it as a 'see how long you can survive' style encounter might work).

How would you stop players from surviving indefinitely by simply flying away from it...without putting up some obviously non-canon hazard to stop them?

gothkid1972 · November 2017

Yes

warpangel wrote: »

Maybe, but with STO's current difficulty level I can't see canon battles being anything but shooting galleries.

jonsills wrote: »

To make it "historically" accurate, you'd have to take away the player's ship and give them one appropriate to that period. I can hear the screams of anguish already. "I spent so much time/$X making my ship just perfect! And now you want to take it away from me??!?!!!??"

I'd say no to prebuilt ships. Be better if you had to get a historically accurate ship and equipment yourself.

That it's at all possible to build a ship that's "just perfect" for every content is a huge failure in my book.

reyan01 wrote: »

wrote: »

That's the point though - to be accurate we shouldn't be able to do significant damage to it. The Wolf 359 cube was absolutely unstoppable at the time. If the mission is to be 'historical' then it should be one that we don't 'win' as such (though as said, having it as a 'see how long you can survive' style encounter might work).

How would you stop players from surviving indefinitely by simply flying away from it...without putting up some obviously non-canon hazard to stop them?

Borg Cube has Tractor Beams...couldnt run away...Perfect Canon solution...

However I do understand the DPS epeen crowd would ball their eyes out, if they couldnt fly their ships, or blow up one cube...

tyler002 · November 2017

Yes

Sounds fun, I support.

DPS babies may cry, but TRIBBLE it. I welcome their tears, I could do with a chuckle.

evilmark444 · November 2017

Yes

Historical battles would be an excellent use of the holodeck

mirrorchaos · November 2017

On the fence

Unclear.

What would be the point in any of these historical battles even through the holodeck? there are plenty of stfs with plentiful reward to each of them. There is also the matter of getting each battle exactly right, including period specific ships, technology and what not. it would also mean trying to render 40+ to 3,000+ ships in some battles and i'm speculating they don't have the means for their engine.

centurian821 · November 2017

Yes

Call them "Historical Simulations" and that way they can be modified slightly with number of enemies based on difficulty for battles like Wolf 359 or Battle of Sector 001 with their ~40 vs 1 setups and Wolf 359 doesn't then NEED to be a no-win-scenario (but it still can be). Also the simulations part means you don't have to worry about having an period accurate ship unless you really want to.

It reminds me of Vorgon Conclusions actually. Could put a group of players in the Home Fleet to respond to and ultimately repulse the Breen attack on Earth mid-Dominion War.

duncanidaho11 · November 2017

Yes

Could be a neat way of staging new patrols or PVE's (a la Kobyashi Maru) if the Cryptic wants to mix up a season's offerings from the usual "Oh noes, the new bad guys are attacking us! What ever will we do?" *Casually fires a torpedo*

Foundry authors have done this before too (ex. the KDF mission Battle of Klach D'Kel Brakt) so when the Foundry comes back online people could approach this topic by creating more historical Foundry missions (in holodeck format or something else, up to you.)

baudl · November 2017

Yes

I see this more of an option as a PVP thing, with premade ships, fitting the factions and era. Premade for balance reasons mainly, but also for immersion.

leemwatson · November 2017

On the fence

As other state, unless the enemy was actually threatening enough to one ship, never mind five, it would just be yet another vaping fest. I want to actually have to fight for my life, not space-bar spam my way through enemies that are nothing more than the equivalent of a chocolate fire-guard.

evilmark444 · November 2017

Yes

duncanidaho11 wrote: »

Could be a neat way of staging new patrols or PVE's (a la Kobyashi Maru) if the Cryptic wants to mix up a season's offerings from the usual "Oh noes, the new bad guys are attacking us! What ever will we do?" *Casually fires a torpedo*

Foundry authors have done this before too (ex. the KDF mission Battle of Klach D'Kel Brakt) so when the Foundry comes back online people could approach this topic by creating more historical Foundry missions (in holodeck format or something else, up to you.)

Foundry authors are forbidden from recreating anything that was in an episode or movie.

where2r1 · November 2017

On the fence

I don't do group stuff that often, so really don't care. Knock yourselves out!!!

LOL!

duncanidaho11 · November 2017

Yes

evilmark444 wrote: »

Foundry authors are forbidden from recreating anything that was in an episode or movie.

This is simply not true. The EULA does not prohibit authors from recreating places or events from episodes and movies provided they don't use actor likenesses in any way (no quibbles, don't do it.) Here's a link for reference:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1009558/the-foundry-end-user-license-agreement/p1

Now by the letter of the regulations...this means we could potentially substitute in an entirely new cast of NPCs who bear no (and I mean no) physical resemblance to the characters they're meant to represent (to portray a canon event). Alternatively, you can do "EV suit theater." But, there's obvious story telling problems with either approach (though the later could be hilarious), so I personally recommend avoiding characters portrayed by actors altogether.

That still gives us plenty of work arounds though. For example: a mission set in the holodeck that replaces the canon cast with your own bridge crew and other STO original characters you may want to tell a meta-story with (ex. Quinn, Shon, Kuumaarke.) Further changes to the "script" of the holoprogram could allow for further substitutions (ex. new original characters).

Alternatively, you can do a temporal episode centered around a canon event (ex. Battle of Wolf 359) but seen from a different angle that doesn't happen to include canon characters (though they may be referenced.) This is probably the easiest approach, and incidentally how Cryptic tends to recreate these scenarios as well (cameos are expensive and it automatically accommodates the player's perspective.) You could also structure a holodeck situation this way too (don't focus on specific characters from the show, focus on the wider historical event.)

evilmark444 · November 2017

Yes

duncanidaho11 wrote: »

evilmark444 wrote: »

Foundry authors are forbidden from recreating anything that was in an episode or movie.

This is simply not true. The EULA does not prohibit authors from recreating places or events from episodes and movies provided they don't use actor likenesses in any way (no quibbles, don't do it.) Here's a link for reference:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1009558/the-foundry-end-user-license-agreement/p1

Now by the letter of the regulations...this means we could potentially substitute in an entirely new cast of NPCs who bear no (and I mean no) physical resemblance to the characters they're meant to represent (to portray a canon event). Alternatively, you can do "EV suit theater." But, there's obvious story telling problems with either approach (though the later could be hilarious), so I personally recommend avoiding characters portrayed by actors altogether.

That still gives us plenty of work arounds though. For example: a mission set in the holodeck that replaces the canon cast with your own bridge crew and other STO original characters you may want to tell a meta-story with (ex. Quinn, Shon, Kuumaarke.) Further changes to the "script" of the holoprogram could allow for further substitutions (ex. new original characters).

Alternatively, you can do a temporal episode centered around a canon event (ex. Battle of Wolf 359) but seen from a different angle that doesn't happen to include canon characters (though they may be referenced.) This is probably the easiest approach, and incidentally how Cryptic tends to recreate these scenarios as well (cameos are expensive and it automatically accommodates the player's perspective.) You could also structure a holodeck situation this way too (don't focus on specific characters from the show, focus on the wider historical event.)

Further down, though I swear i remember seeing it somewhere else as well:

As for getting around likenesses, I always thought it would be interesting to have a holodeck style episode where STO NPCs are in the holodeck with you playing those particular roles, so for example Admiral Quinn as Picard, or something else along those lines.

orondis · November 2017

The only real way to do would be to put the player into a canon build and disable all traits, specializations and doffs.

A bit like the fight in Temporal Ambassador before you started on the power creep. For a bit more realistic combat, it'd have to be elite difficulty.

I'd be all for that.

duncanidaho11 · November 2017

Yes

evilmark444 wrote: »

Further down, though I swear i remember seeing it somewhere else as well:

I think what they were referring to was recreating an episode in full (ie. with the likenesses). Here's the most relevant section restricting content:

New Game Materials may utilize the Star Trek Properties as provided by CBS and Cryptic Studios unless otherwise specified in the Prohibited Section below. You may use the names of characters (past or present) from the Star Trek Properties.

Prohibited Uses of the Star Trek Properties:
You may not use the first or last names, likenesses, or other depictions of any actors appearing in, or writers, directors, or producers of the Star Trek Properties.

Other content (ie. elements of the universe) is fair game (exceptions being stuff from Trek novels, comics, non-STO games, and the Animated Series) because the Foundry works specifically under license with the IP (that's one of the main functions of the EULA).

Now, there is the following restriction on copyrighted content:

You may not use copyrighted content from the Properties, including but not limited to web content, promotional materials (posters, advertisements) or existing licensed merchandise (novels, trading cards, figurines)

The question raised here (in light of what you quoted) is, does "copyrighted material" include scripts (as separate entities from the allowed Trek IP)?

I think the point to make is that a script is presenting the literal history of the Trek universe. It's the integral foundation of the EULA allowed source material and I can't see how they could be defined without referencing the words the actors used. There's also no stated prohibition on quoting characters (and it would have been very easy to state, along with promotional material and separately licensed trek products, if that was a concern.)

But, in best practice it's not recommended that an author goes out of their way to copy a whole episode (as opposed to a historical event). They're hitting the likeness issue with full force and every comparative limitation of the Foundry compared to live action as well. Accommodations have to be made in order to build a good mission, so the steps taken to avoid likeness issues and make best use of the Foundry format (ie. a shifted perspective) should also lead to other changes to the story and characters.

tremere12 · November 2017

No

STO has nothing to do with Trek, neither would it work.

duncanidaho11 · November 2017

Yes

tremere12 wrote: »

STO has nothing to do with Trek, neither would it work.

And I just want to point out with this that it's already been done (several times). For example: the Battle of Procyon V.

Better luck next time.

Unknown · November 2017

This content has been removed.

spiritborn · November 2017

Yes

vapist9#9349 wrote: »

how about more focus on st:d and less on the old stuff?

Wouldn't Battle of the Binary Stars be "historical battle" as well? remember that "historical" here means from in-universe perspective (aka from the PoV of people living in 2410) rather then "from pre-STO series".

Personally I think "historical simulation" could work if done right and honestly you wouldn't really have to change the build of the people just have NPCs tell that things play out from historical perspective so power levels of the enemies aren't accurated when compared to your modern ship (in fact a borg cube cannot beat even 39 fighter mobs if in "current" power levels).

EDIT:and I dout the "DPS crowd" wouldn't complain that much about a boosted "boss" version of a NPC.

Historical battles

Historical battles 53 votes

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