Also on a side note I just started on a sci toon and I noticed straight off that the sci toon can really TRIBBLE anything because of the abilities it can accomodate Vs my Engi or Tact toon on elite..
I look at the balance changes this way, cryptic will do what they want, then without testing, push it straight to the holodeck after a few days on tribble with the limited play base of the tribble server saying yes or no.
What they need to do is identify one of two areas that match each other (two powers that complement or offset each other), test them in tribble, have a tribble balance weekend, give some reward, have player say if they like it or not. Please do not do what you have been doing with most of the game, here are the changes, patch to fix the broken change, change will remain broken till patched, finallly patched.
As many have mentioned, if a balance change totally changes the build of a character, you might finally chase that player away from the game as they have become tired of changes that make them have to redo their whole char or all their toons. These balance changes need to be limited to just a few at a time, AND TESTED and FEEDBACK demanded before implementing them.
So long as it hits everything including cash shop items and lock box gear as well.
This... But I doubt it, as seen what they've done when one of the dpsers precious traits, Invulnerability, was hit, they complained, and it was imediattly reinstated back to its previous state...
Also it matters alot from wich players they take the feedback... If, and sadly this will probably be the case, they will listen to the rather vocal dps comunity, all will be same TRIBBLE, a grade or two down, or maybe even worse as seen with the skill revamp...
If they will take PvPers feedback into consideration, then maybe there us a chance for some actual balance passes...
I say 'yes' but there is one important condition: they shouldn't sell more power creep.
I'd like to see them try to fix the lack of balance now - and then keep the game balanced. Things should never have gotten so out of hand in the first place, and they definitely shouldn't sell the very thing they now (rightfully so though) treat as a problem.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
In what universe does nerfing Mines lead to better balance?
Because that's what "nerf everying" says and it so OBVIOUSLY unrelated to what's actually going to happen, why even discuss it?
Pretty much.
Destructibles are already way behind the power curve. They are slow, fragile and have abysmal cooldowns (some or all of these weaknesses are exploited by the latest enemies) and you want to make them worse so you can "stick it to the B:FAW" builds?
No. Go after the TRIBBLE you are concerned about, be it AP:A, B:FAW or FBP. Lets not burn the whole game down, shall we?
I survived Enhancement Diversification of City of Heroes, I'd survive such a sweeping change in this. I'd probably come out of it better for it too, I don't do the extreme DPSing that others do.
I say 'yes' but there is one important condition: they shouldn't sell more power creep.
I'd like to see them try to fix the lack of balance now - and then keep the game balanced. Things should never have gotten so out of hand in the first place, and they definitely shouldn't sell the very thing they now (rightfully so though) treat as a problem.
You do realize the whole purpose of the upcoming nerfs is to sell you 'the very thing they now (rightfully so though) treat as a problem' all over again, right?!
I say 'yes' but there is one important condition: they shouldn't sell more power creep.
I'd like to see them try to fix the lack of balance now - and then keep the game balanced. Things should never have gotten so out of hand in the first place, and they definitely shouldn't sell the very thing they now (rightfully so though) treat as a problem.
You do realize the whole purpose of the upcoming nerfs is to sell you 'the very thing they now (rightfully so though) treat as a problem' all over again, right?!
No... what are you talking about?
To be fair, most of the abilities that were corrected were not really sold to us, with the notable exception of the Kligat maybe... and even that one isn't that expensive IIRC.
There's also significant buffs for things like Hyperonic radiation.
The OP proceeds on a false premise: Namely that Cryptic Devs understand the powers and abilities they've added to the game enough to PROPERLY balance them. If the past 7 years have proved anything, it's that Cryptic really doesn't UNDERSTAND the various synergies of the powers in STO well enough TO properly balance it.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Tbh, the only way to "balance" the game in it's current form is to basically take it back to square one. And a ground up rework is not only bad for business, but it's horrible for the playerbase as well. If you look over the hundreds of dev blogs from the past 7 years, and look at all the changes that they've made, there's no easy fix. Some powers have been buffed to high heaven, then nerfed into the ground, then had their mechanics changed so completely they barely do what they were originally intended to do. Then you have some powers that have remained almost unchanged. Then you've had ones that were removed completely, then reintroduced because the void they left, and so on and so forth.
There's no easy fix. And "major nerfs" won't do anything here. The imbalance in this game is not based on what is "nerfed" or "buffed". It's based almost exclusively on the broken/damaged mechanics that are either ignored or just unfixable. That being said, I still can't place a vote because I want the game to be balanced again, but I don't know how it will happen. I believe some... ok MANY things will need to be adjusted, and some of those "adjustments" persay will likely end up as nerfs. But at the same time, I don't think that MAJOR nerfs are needed. As such, I cannot say yes, no, or maybe.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I don't care about balance in the slightest, nor do I think it's going to actually happen.
Frankly, I'm in total agreement.
I know this won't be popular, and I'll take some heat for it.. but I really don't care about game balance in the least. Most of the cries for 'balance,' honestly just come from people that suck at the game and want the game altered so that they can be 'better.' The honest truth is, I play the game for my own enjoyment and that's my top concern. The game is fun for me, and that's all that matters to me.
Don't get me wrong, if someone needs help and I can assist, I am happy to do it but the happiness of other players simply isn't a concern for me. The fact is, this game doesn't need to be 'balanced.' Why? Because it's pathetically easy as it is. There is no class, no ship, no faction, no anything.. that is just too weak to play the game. Yeah, if you play a Tactical you might be able to break 100k DPS while only doing 75k in your Engineer.. who cares? You're still WAY over anything you would ever need to play and enjoy the game. If you're struggling and need help getting better, hey.. we have all been there, ask and people will be happy to help, myself included. If however, you are unhappy and unwilling to change or adapt..then TRIBBLE you. I don't give a TRIBBLE if you enjoy this game or not and I wouldn't want to change even the slightest thing for your benefit.
Bottom line, balance issues plague every MMO in existence. They always have and likely always will. Many development teams have tried to tackle the issue of balance in an MMO and all have failed. There is no way that I believe that Cryptic Studios, the team that puts horribly broken and untested content right into the live server without a second thought, will be the one team that finally solves the great mystery. If you put everything back to square one, we would have the same problems again inside 1 year at the most. This team doesn't even fix bugs that persist for years and you think they can get this right if we all just agree to give up our stuff?
That's a new level of delusion.. sorry, but the entire idea is laughable to put it mildly.
IMO, the people who suck or just have no intention to take the time and learn about the game will cry for balance.
The people who are crying about nerfs are doing so only because it affects them.
If there is a little bit of both balancing and nerfing of the obvious abilities that need it, perhaps there will be a happy medium... somewhere. Finding that is a job the devs (with hopefully some advice taken from the player-base) will have to figure out.
-AoP- Warrior's Blood (KDF Armada) / -AoP- Qu' raD qulbo'Degh / -AoP- ProjectPhoenix Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
No. If they can't get the balance right now, who's to say they will have it sorted out with "big nerfs". Killing specs doesn't mean they can fix anything, the devs who do this need to know what the hell they are doing first or else they are just throwing gas on the fire.
Knowledge and understanding of the game comes first, basic stuff. They haven't displayed that, so no, nerfing everything won't fix anything. I'm no on board with this idea.
IMO, the people who suck or just have no intention to take the time and learn about the game will cry for balance.
I do 100k. I find that boring, not to mention it really underlines how much of a theme park MMO STO is. I shouldn't be doing more than 30-40k at most. Frankly even that's insanely high, but any lower will require them to adjust all the NPCs.
I want my Trek game to feel like a Trek game, not simply have ships with Trekish skins. I also want a challenge (which is why I used to PvP all the time). That is the point of advanced and elite difficulty, to provide a challenge. Instead advanced is essentially easy mode.
Also lets be honest - There's no way in hell Crystalline Entity advanced was supposed to be completed in 15-20 seconds.
IMO, the people who suck or just have no intention to take the time and learn about the game will cry for balance.
I do 100k. I find that boring, not to mention it really underlines how much of a theme park MMO STO is. I shouldn't be doing more than 30-40k at most. Frankly even that's insanely high, but any lower will require them to adjust all the NPCs.
I want my Trek game to feel like a Trek game, not simply have ships with Trekish skins. I also want a challenge (which is why I used to PvP all the time). That is the point of advanced and elite difficulty, to provide a challenge. Instead advanced is essentially easy mode.
Advanced is not essentially easy mode, it's literally easy mode. Has been ever since they removed the fail conditions. Its point is not to provide challenge, it's to let newbies and casuals coast through the rep gear. And the point of Elite...well I don't know. It's not actually hard enough to seriously challenge the high-performers and it doesn't reward enough to be worth running instead of CCA/ISA, so I guess it just has no point at all.
Cryptic has had every chance to add challenging content, to fit the three difficulty settings into the range of player performance. They have instead repeatedly chosen to make everything easier.
Advanced is not essentially easy mode, it's literally easy mode. Has been ever since they removed the fail conditions. Its point is not to provide challenge, it's to let newbies and casuals coast through the rep gear. And the point of Elite...well I don't know. It's not actually hard enough to seriously challenge the high-performers and it doesn't reward enough to be worth running instead of CCA/ISA, so I guess it just has no point at all.
Cryptic has had every chance to add challenging content, to fit the three difficulty settings into the range of player performance. They have instead repeatedly chosen to make everything easier.
This. A thousand times over. One of the main reasons I miss how thing were back in S6. You could actually FAIL stfs. Elite actually MEANT elite. Advanced now just means more HP and a little more tickle.
I will grant you the RNG for getting prototype tech to get the mk XII VR gear was a pain in the TRIBBLE (I have several HUNDRED IGE runs on my main just to get the proto-personal shield tech), and the invisitorps weren't much fun either, but at least things were somewhat of a challenge in S6. You needed a TON of teamwork and coordination (especially the ground ESTFs, and let's face it, CSE wasn't exactly a cakewalk either) to win efficiently and smoothly. And now? Two 60k players can clear most of ISA in about 3 minutes, and the rest in another 2. CSA is a joke now since the borg BoPs do more or less ZILCH damage and the kang has an ungodly amount of HP and shields, and KSA is just... well... BORING. And the ground ASTFs? ZZZzzzZZZtr-116zzzZZZzzzZZZ.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Yes I have decent enough gear and skill to get by regardless, it would be a great new learning curve. And might bring certain aspects of the game back inti focus more.
"If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
There are three fundamental flaws with this question:
1. The issue itself is not binary. You are more likely going to end of with the worst of both worlds, not the Best of Both Worlds. There are hundreds of different pieces of equipment and builds. The "imbalances" that many perceive here developed over a long period of time, as players attempted to find optimal set-ups and took advantage of their detailed understanding of the intentional (and unintentional) game mechanics. In turn, additional equipment was added and older equipment was adjusted piecemeal, adding another leg to the cycle.
2. What is balanced? While anyone can point to a handful of items that may be overpowered or underpowered, everyone's idea of what "balanced" is will be different. Is the goal to make all builds viable? Eliminate extremes caused by min/max builds? Maintain variety in builds, so people aren't all using the same pieces of equipment on the same ships (or on the ground).
3. Who is the target player? Top tier players can put together "budget builds" using only not-upgraded mission reward equipment and fly free event ships and do upwards of 100k dps in ISA - videos are all over youtube in ship reviews and build tutorials. Ultimately, you cannot "balance" away player skill. I've seen people complaining because they've joined an Advanced STF and cannot keep up. Well, that's why they're tiered.
Also, it's not like they're going to do a systematic cost benefit analysis to look at the economic impact on players. More likely, they'll look at stuff purchased by players who spend a lot and focus most on not pissing them off.
I don't get the impression that the need for "balance" comes from game-breaking equipment which make the missions unplayable.
Probably not a popular opinion, but I am all about adjustments if we actually get a game where something similar to the holy trinity is necessary to play the game. Then hopefully they would create stfs and other missions that actually require tank/heals/DPS/control/etc...
I know that the holy trinity isn't a very popular idea in this game but for me it's part of why I get bored being at endgame. I really hope that these adjustments will actually make the trinity necessary...
Either way if these adjustments at least make Engineer and Science captains just as useful as Tac captains I'm all about it. If it's just a nerf in damage creep to sell T7 ships in a few months not so much. I'm totally fine with Tac captains being damage gods, but they should get less ROI in science and engineer skills and literally be glass cannons in most everything they fly or fragile butterflies if they fly cruisers.
I know my thoughts on the trinity is not a popular one among most people in this game, but I think the lack there of legitimately hurts the game at max level and what the developers can make as far as missions and stfs go.
You may now proceed to bash my support of the holy trinity or why it just wouldn't work here, which I have yet to hear a legitimate reason why to. Maybe you will be the first!
Comments
Again..Just what I noticed here..
Adu-Uss Firefox NCC-93425-F (LVL 65 FED AoY ENG) UR/VR MKXV Fleet Intel Assault Cruiser (July 2016)
Jean-Uss Seratoga Ravenna (LVL 60 FED Delta ENG) UC/R MKVI Bajoran Escort (April 2018)
Dubsa-RRW Mnaudh (LVL 50 FED allied ROM Delta ENG) Warbird (May 2018)
Marop-IKS Orunthi (LVL 50 KNG Delta ENG) BoP (May 2018)
Kanak'lan-TRIBBLE (LVL 65 DOM Gamma ENG) TRIBBLE (June 2018)
What they need to do is identify one of two areas that match each other (two powers that complement or offset each other), test them in tribble, have a tribble balance weekend, give some reward, have player say if they like it or not. Please do not do what you have been doing with most of the game, here are the changes, patch to fix the broken change, change will remain broken till patched, finallly patched.
As many have mentioned, if a balance change totally changes the build of a character, you might finally chase that player away from the game as they have become tired of changes that make them have to redo their whole char or all their toons. These balance changes need to be limited to just a few at a time, AND TESTED and FEEDBACK demanded before implementing them.
This... But I doubt it, as seen what they've done when one of the dpsers precious traits, Invulnerability, was hit, they complained, and it was imediattly reinstated back to its previous state...
Also it matters alot from wich players they take the feedback... If, and sadly this will probably be the case, they will listen to the rather vocal dps comunity, all will be same TRIBBLE, a grade or two down, or maybe even worse as seen with the skill revamp...
If they will take PvPers feedback into consideration, then maybe there us a chance for some actual balance passes...
Also, what he said:
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Destructibles are already way behind the power curve. They are slow, fragile and have abysmal cooldowns (some or all of these weaknesses are exploited by the latest enemies) and you want to make them worse so you can "stick it to the B:FAW" builds?
No. Go after the TRIBBLE you are concerned about, be it AP:A, B:FAW or FBP. Lets not burn the whole game down, shall we?
Ground "no" why mess it more than already is.
You do realize the whole purpose of the upcoming nerfs is to sell you 'the very thing they now (rightfully so though) treat as a problem' all over again, right?!
But my answer would be yes if and only if cryptic stop the DPS=everything.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
No... what are you talking about?
To be fair, most of the abilities that were corrected were not really sold to us, with the notable exception of the Kligat maybe... and even that one isn't that expensive IIRC.
There's also significant buffs for things like Hyperonic radiation.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
There's no easy fix. And "major nerfs" won't do anything here. The imbalance in this game is not based on what is "nerfed" or "buffed". It's based almost exclusively on the broken/damaged mechanics that are either ignored or just unfixable. That being said, I still can't place a vote because I want the game to be balanced again, but I don't know how it will happen. I believe some... ok MANY things will need to be adjusted, and some of those "adjustments" persay will likely end up as nerfs. But at the same time, I don't think that MAJOR nerfs are needed. As such, I cannot say yes, no, or maybe.
Frankly, I'm in total agreement.
I know this won't be popular, and I'll take some heat for it.. but I really don't care about game balance in the least. Most of the cries for 'balance,' honestly just come from people that suck at the game and want the game altered so that they can be 'better.' The honest truth is, I play the game for my own enjoyment and that's my top concern. The game is fun for me, and that's all that matters to me.
Don't get me wrong, if someone needs help and I can assist, I am happy to do it but the happiness of other players simply isn't a concern for me. The fact is, this game doesn't need to be 'balanced.' Why? Because it's pathetically easy as it is. There is no class, no ship, no faction, no anything.. that is just too weak to play the game. Yeah, if you play a Tactical you might be able to break 100k DPS while only doing 75k in your Engineer.. who cares? You're still WAY over anything you would ever need to play and enjoy the game. If you're struggling and need help getting better, hey.. we have all been there, ask and people will be happy to help, myself included. If however, you are unhappy and unwilling to change or adapt..then TRIBBLE you. I don't give a TRIBBLE if you enjoy this game or not and I wouldn't want to change even the slightest thing for your benefit.
Bottom line, balance issues plague every MMO in existence. They always have and likely always will. Many development teams have tried to tackle the issue of balance in an MMO and all have failed. There is no way that I believe that Cryptic Studios, the team that puts horribly broken and untested content right into the live server without a second thought, will be the one team that finally solves the great mystery. If you put everything back to square one, we would have the same problems again inside 1 year at the most. This team doesn't even fix bugs that persist for years and you think they can get this right if we all just agree to give up our stuff?
That's a new level of delusion.. sorry, but the entire idea is laughable to put it mildly.
Must be a nightmare. Hope I wake up soon.
The people who are crying about nerfs are doing so only because it affects them.
If there is a little bit of both balancing and nerfing of the obvious abilities that need it, perhaps there will be a happy medium... somewhere. Finding that is a job the devs (with hopefully some advice taken from the player-base) will have to figure out.
Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
Knowledge and understanding of the game comes first, basic stuff. They haven't displayed that, so no, nerfing everything won't fix anything. I'm no on board with this idea.
I'm looking forward to major nerfs and rebalancing, but I have to agree with Hereticknight.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
I do 100k. I find that boring, not to mention it really underlines how much of a theme park MMO STO is. I shouldn't be doing more than 30-40k at most. Frankly even that's insanely high, but any lower will require them to adjust all the NPCs.
I want my Trek game to feel like a Trek game, not simply have ships with Trekish skins. I also want a challenge (which is why I used to PvP all the time). That is the point of advanced and elite difficulty, to provide a challenge. Instead advanced is essentially easy mode.
Also lets be honest - There's no way in hell Crystalline Entity advanced was supposed to be completed in 15-20 seconds.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Cryptic has had every chance to add challenging content, to fit the three difficulty settings into the range of player performance. They have instead repeatedly chosen to make everything easier.
This. A thousand times over. One of the main reasons I miss how thing were back in S6. You could actually FAIL stfs. Elite actually MEANT elite. Advanced now just means more HP and a little more tickle.
I will grant you the RNG for getting prototype tech to get the mk XII VR gear was a pain in the TRIBBLE (I have several HUNDRED IGE runs on my main just to get the proto-personal shield tech), and the invisitorps weren't much fun either, but at least things were somewhat of a challenge in S6. You needed a TON of teamwork and coordination (especially the ground ESTFs, and let's face it, CSE wasn't exactly a cakewalk either) to win efficiently and smoothly. And now? Two 60k players can clear most of ISA in about 3 minutes, and the rest in another 2. CSA is a joke now since the borg BoPs do more or less ZILCH damage and the kang has an ungodly amount of HP and shields, and KSA is just... well... BORING. And the ground ASTFs? ZZZzzzZZZtr-116zzzZZZzzzZZZ.
I have decent enough gear and skill to get by regardless, it would be a great new learning curve. And might bring certain aspects of the game back inti focus more.
"If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
There are three fundamental flaws with this question:
1. The issue itself is not binary. You are more likely going to end of with the worst of both worlds, not the Best of Both Worlds. There are hundreds of different pieces of equipment and builds. The "imbalances" that many perceive here developed over a long period of time, as players attempted to find optimal set-ups and took advantage of their detailed understanding of the intentional (and unintentional) game mechanics. In turn, additional equipment was added and older equipment was adjusted piecemeal, adding another leg to the cycle.
2. What is balanced? While anyone can point to a handful of items that may be overpowered or underpowered, everyone's idea of what "balanced" is will be different. Is the goal to make all builds viable? Eliminate extremes caused by min/max builds? Maintain variety in builds, so people aren't all using the same pieces of equipment on the same ships (or on the ground).
3. Who is the target player? Top tier players can put together "budget builds" using only not-upgraded mission reward equipment and fly free event ships and do upwards of 100k dps in ISA - videos are all over youtube in ship reviews and build tutorials. Ultimately, you cannot "balance" away player skill. I've seen people complaining because they've joined an Advanced STF and cannot keep up. Well, that's why they're tiered.
Also, it's not like they're going to do a systematic cost benefit analysis to look at the economic impact on players. More likely, they'll look at stuff purchased by players who spend a lot and focus most on not pissing them off.
I don't get the impression that the need for "balance" comes from game-breaking equipment which make the missions unplayable.
I know that the holy trinity isn't a very popular idea in this game but for me it's part of why I get bored being at endgame. I really hope that these adjustments will actually make the trinity necessary...
Either way if these adjustments at least make Engineer and Science captains just as useful as Tac captains I'm all about it. If it's just a nerf in damage creep to sell T7 ships in a few months not so much. I'm totally fine with Tac captains being damage gods, but they should get less ROI in science and engineer skills and literally be glass cannons in most everything they fly or fragile butterflies if they fly cruisers.
I know my thoughts on the trinity is not a popular one among most people in this game, but I think the lack there of legitimately hurts the game at max level and what the developers can make as far as missions and stfs go.
You may now proceed to bash my support of the holy trinity or why it just wouldn't work here, which I have yet to hear a legitimate reason why to. Maybe you will be the first!