@goodscotch
I didn't think the mention of cave men was worth acknowledging. I leaned toward the Mongol tribes Like the Golden Horde and the ones that came before. Ferocious and purposeful when there is an external threat or war to be waged but given to infighting and rivalries in "peace". I wouldn't describe Klingon nature as a biological imperative so much as social engineering on the part of Kahless; More likely someone who had to keep order after his passing. There is nearly a Darwinian drive to fight and challenge in order that the Empire can be protected. Aggression makes for great theatre and spectacle but canny leaders and cunning are equally revered. Our ramblings on the forms of ships are fairly similar.
It looks like no one noticed the note at the bottom of the post, so I'll just put it here:
NOTE Apparently the term "cavemen" is throwing some people off. It was never intended as a intelligence metaphor. We all know klingons are not drooling idiots. I honestly thought it was so clear that nobody would think otherwise. The Cavemen thing was a quick keyword that I threw out there to put the ball rolling. Cavemen hunted, had strong family ties, etc. I could have used a lion pride or some ancient society for that matter. Cavemen, lion pride or ancient society it really doesn't matter.
What we're trying to do here is reducing klingons to archetypes. That way we can start constructing a stronger image to base designs in.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I read it; then read past it. I wouldn't have bothered commenting if I thought the thread had no value or the author didn't appear to be expressing a genuine interest. I'm probably too late to be heard but something there made me want to reply just the same. The analogy didn't work for me but much of the thread did.
Well I am not sure who wrote that original statement about the Romans, but they really should study history, because obviously they did not. Constantine fancied himself knowledgeable about war, in fact he was quite a armature. So he got rid of the Roman bigger/heavy infantry legions, which were supported by heavy cavalry , and heavy artillery of that era. The effect was at the time of the fall of Rome, the Roman legions were nothing more then pathetic light infantry, supported by light cavalry. The idea being that it would allow Rome to patrol its empire easier, just one problem you dont last long in a prolonged heavy combat type of fight. What he should have done was expanded Romes heavy cavalry to patrol the gaps, that the legions could not get to fast enough. Anyways my point is the Romans did not build bigger and faster at the end to look intimidating.
As for Klingon ships the only design they have come out with that was just awful in my opinion was the command cruiser tier six. The rest of it I think captured the essence. I am still waiting for them to release the tier4/5 carriers as tier 6. The KDF is not going to find its 'soul' until they do a overhaul of pvp, and let the KDF do what it does best. This being killing Federation ships.
Well I am not sure who wrote that original statement about the Romans, but they really should study history, because obviously they did not. Constantine fancied himself knowledgeable about war, in fact he was quite a armature. So he got rid of the Roman bigger/heavy infantry legions, which were supported by heavy cavalry , and heavy artillery of that era. The effect was at the time of the fall of Rome, the Roman legions were nothing more then pathetic light infantry, supported by light cavalry. The idea being that it would allow Rome to patrol its empire easier, just one problem you dont last long in a prolonged heavy combat type of fight. What he should have done was expanded Romes heavy cavalry to patrol the gaps, that the legions could not get to fast enough. Anyways my point is the Romans did not build bigger and faster at the end to look intimidating.
As for Klingon ships the only design they have come out with that was just awful in my opinion was the command cruiser tier six. The rest of it I think captured the essence. I am still waiting for them to release the tier4/5 carriers as tier 6. The KDF is not going to find its 'soul' until they do a overhaul of pvp, and let the KDF do what it does best. This being killing Federation ships.
have you ever actually TESTED a bortasque? I mean, tested as in flown any of the dozen or so better Battlecruisers including the free Vor'cha or the level 40 Negh'var?
and I don't mean just replicating a Federation beam-hog BFAW boat. I mean with Cannons and torpedoes in the nose, and maybe a DBB?
Klingon combat is not slow and awkward. the Bort is both, has been since inception, it's the developmentally disabled (we can't say '****' in this day and age), megacephalic and morbidly obese cousin of the Oddy. It requires an enormous investment to even WORK on a mediocre level. Back when PvP was still a thing, taking a Bort was a handicap on your own team, it's only good on stationary targets, and even then it's not THAT good.
it is the antithesis of KDF design doctrine, it wallows like a product of Utopia Planitia, handles like a bus with bad tyres on an icy lake, it once boasted the highest POTENTIAL DPS, but it never had the ability to actually deliver...and it still doesn't. You have to build it as a Federation cruiser that's short one item and one cruiser command to even get it up to mediocrity. It is, objectively, a terrible ship with beautiful art-which is also counter to the Klingon asthetic of good ships that don't always look sleek and pretty in a conventional sense.
it is the antithesis of Klingon architecture-it's all frills and frippery with no teeth, no legs, and a bloated body.
It sold so well that Geko used it as an excuse not to make any more C-store ships for KDF players for three years.
That is how 'right' the design aesthetic combined with the performance was in practice. more people were willing to shell out for Mirror Qin Raptors, than Bortasques-in spite of the Mirror Qin having a turn rate defect at the pivot just like the standard Qin Heavy Raptor (which was, and still is, infamous for having problems getting nose-on to a target.)
the term "Boondoggle" didn't begin to cover it. seriously bad design.
pretty artwork though. not fifty dollars for a three pack pretty, but pretty.
Wo wo wo dude relax please....
I was not talking about design of how the ships perform, so much as the look. If I was reading the op correctly they were having trouble finding the right look for kdf ships, hence my post. The only ship that seemed to miss it by a mile was command cruiser. I look at the Bortasque as a challenge, which is why I am making it my main ship. Flying bops, and escorts is a challenge. Once you learn them it is rewarding. This beast has a slow rate of turn, and like you said most people build it as a beam boat. This being said if I can make it work well that will be reward enough.
One last thing the KDF has been known to build huge ships, if you play starfleet academy, thier dreadnought is a four engine beast. The Negh'var was the first huge ship they built since that time, so they do sometimes build large dreadnoughts. On the design, yes I am well aware the devs are TRIBBLE the kdf into the ground, and it would not surprise me in the next year if they revamped pvp. Made sure all the kdf had was big beast like ships that fire like fed ships. The two things the kdf had, was carriers, bop battle cloak, and quick/fast heavy battle cruisers. Two of those things are gone and open to all now, but they did put in the qib, which is quick and agile. She is mostly engineering bridge officer slots. The intel aspect to me feels way too long apply to be of any real use. So it was a improvement but not a complete improvement in my opinion. Then again I did try her with cannons, and it did not seem to work out well. Perhaps I am just out of practice.
Might make a observation?
I think you might be ticked because they put the D7 tier six ship in a lockbox, and worried that they may do the same to the vor'cha. I could be wrong. I really hope they dont, but they always feed the kdf scraps and thats nothing new.
So far all the faction ships that went into lockboxes seem to have a semblance of logic. The Kelvin Timeline ships because they are alternate univere ships, the old Temporal ships because they are from the future, the "Classic" TOS ships because they were restricted from using them for so long and this keeps them rare. (And boy, the T'liss and D7 are really, really, really are. The Connie is only rare.)
But the Vor'Cha? That just seems unjustifieable. It's been a fully fledged endgame ship until Tier 6 arrived. "Lockboxing" it would seem very, very problematic.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Not going to quote the last few posts here, because they're all speaking to the same issue, and that is ships being offered via R&D Pack or Lockbox. What if they intend to offer every single future ship release by this type of method? What then? Because, I think if they had their dithers...that's exactly what they would do. Of course, it's their call...for better or worse, it's their call. At this point, if I had to guess...I think this is where they want to go with new ships...all lockbox delivery, based on the player's character faction that opens the box. So, if you're a Federation character and you hit the 1% chance and open the box, you get the Sovereign...if you're Klingon you get the Vor'cha...if you're Romulan you get the Dederidex.
Well I am hope you are wrong goodscotch, because upon my return, the one vibe I am getting is people are getting pretty tired of this type of treatment. They already raised the cost of new ships, what was originally 20 bucks, turned into 30 bucks later on. They also got rid of free ships in game, once you reach a certain point. They most defiantly made zen ships the most powerful. Your thought is not without merit though, because if what I am hearing is true, they made the parts of these lock box ships came with overpowering compared to everything else. This is exactly the same thing they did to the zen ships, prior to making people get zen ships once you reach a certain rank. If they go this route, their playerbase is going to shrink to only the wealthy players.
Can't agree with that sentiment. What do you *need* a T6 ship for? A decently kitted T5 - not even T5U - is more than adequate for 90% of gameplay. My Fed Temporal Agent is currently doing exactly this, running a basic T5 Ranger BC as his "endgame" ship. It's got semi-decent gear - upgraded weapons, UR Aegis and fleet consoles - but it's still a T5. Which holds up very well, thank you.
Heck, back in the Delta Recruit event, I ran most of the missions at L50-60 in a T3 K't'inga. Tricky, even on normal difficulty, but doable.
Cryptic won't ever trumpet how easy it is to run content in lower-tier ships, as that would hit their sales, but that's how the game us built.
Don't be too harsh on our developer friend. It's just as important to know what the Klingon aesthetic *IS* as it is to know WHAT IT IS NOT ... if you follow my line of reasoning. It's a matter of setting the "boundaries" of artistic expression and freedom (this is okay, that is not), and it is in many cases even more important to know WHY an option is a No Good (complete with supporting arguments and nuances of thought) than it is to get The Right Answer.
This is why I wrote up my response (to kick off this thread) the way that I did, so as to supplement the answers of Yes/No with the necessary support of Why/Why Not. That way, you can "guide & shape" the understanding of expectations in a USEFUL direction, instead of just stamping feet and screaming "you're doing it wrong!" with no additional information.
All of the art direction choices we saw on television happened for REASONS. It's important to be able to understand those reasons and accept them for what they are (and why they came about) so as to be able to grow and extend beyond them into the regions of (artistic) theory that are being asked about while remaining consistent with, and an extension of, What Came Before so as to lend authenticity and acceptance On Sight of the artistic direction used.
"There are no experimental failures. There's only more data."
- Bryce Lynch, Network XXIII Head of Research and Development
patrickngo
When I still had hope, yea my blood pressure would go up, but no more. The only thing getting my blood pressure up right now is someone in gen discussion trying to nerf tacs into the ground.
As for the KDF ship design shame on that dev 10,000xs over. Years ago I put together a list of all the art mistakes for the KDF, and several KDF players at the time added to the list, and even commented that these were things that turned their friends off to the KDF. So I am not sure why this dev is having trouble. The information has been put out their, and I am sure I am not the only one to put such a list out their at some point or another.
As for ship design. Number one above all else, is the importance of the Bird of Prey, yet we keep being given the B'rel. The smallest and saddest bop of them all. This one was all cryptic and I loved the design Ning'tau Bird of Prey. It was unique it was Klingon! The heavy bird of prey was also a fantastic design with a crew of 100 warriors. The Bop bridges in this game were done well and good. The interior hull design is way too big and is based off of Federation design. Instead of using metal as the bed, and ladders to get around the ship, everything has the stench of Federation design. Something the devs do not understand. Klingon ships are not built to be roomy. Second key class of Klingon ship design the D7 battlecruiser variant. Its light, its fast, and its death. The third key class of Klingon ship design, the Klingon carriers, merely because they broke the feds like a twig being broken in your hand. The last but key aspect is the Negh'var, the heavy battlecruiser. I like the Bortasqu, got decent at it too, but in the end I couldnt argue with the fact that it fired like a fed ship. The raptor what is it? You look at the raptor in this game, and I dont think the devs know what a raptor is. I sure dont, sense we have only seen it one time. A scout vessel? I dont think so its too heavily armed. When you have raptors with 16 turn rate and then ones with 20+ turn rate, its hard to gage what class of ship they are. The met'ha was a fine ship, but way too bulky to be of any use.
Thats my thoughts. One last thing in case the devs actually read this forum. If they really want to know about Klingon design, then for the love of everything on this earth stay the hell away from fan sites or Redit. Put the information here and I am certain many KDF players will tell them exactly what Klingon Design is.
Please tell me this is a oops on them not putting this down somewhere. The Tier six kdf ships do come with cloaking devices correct? I am looking at the Negh'var tier six and it says nothing about having a cloaking device?
I was unaware of all this, I do post on the forums, but I dont keep track of the details. I understand they are gun shy, but that does not mean great ideas were not conceived here on the forums. Especially when it comes to Klingon styles. As for the first item thank you. I nearly had a heart attack when in game it was not saying it came equipped with a cloaking device. Looks like a solid ship. Turn rate nine, the Negh'var style, and a solid way to push out some serious damage that is not beam fire at will III, and or torpedo spread III.
If only Material 4 wasn't so broken on the Neg'Tev .
It works the ship is solid, with a couple fleet consoles, she turns really well. I am always making skid marks with the Neg'Tev. The only enemy that gives me much trouble is the cc the Romulan npc ships use. I really wont know how this ship works out though until I am able to do Elite difficulty. These days Elite you had better have some serous gear, which I do not. I have pieces but not upgraded.
The problem I see mentioned in most posts here, aren't those of how the ship looks. Well, other than the usual "this is bugged" parts. The main thing I've been seeing, it how it's designed. Let me explain.
If you look at the T6 ships that were released. The great majority of them have the same stats as their Federation counter part. Which isn't a bad thing. But, when looking at it from a KDF point a view. It's not how the ship would actually be designed. The Bortasqu', while a somewhat decent ship, isn't built like a the design would have it. It's layout would be better served on a Corsair or Marauder. Something big and hard to maneuver.
This means the problem is within the stats and overall layout. You know, weapon slots, consoles, boff layout, impulse, shield and all that. So let's look at the Bortasqu' War Cruiser.
Tier:5
Upgrade cost: Requires an Upgrade Token
Type:Battle Cruiser
Admiralty stats:Adm tac 28 Adm eng 52 Adm sci 18
Turn Rate:5.5
Impulse Modifier:0.15
Inertia rating:18
Bonus Power:
+10 weapons power
+10 engine power
Abilities:Cloak
Launch HoH'SuS Bird of Prey
Strategic Maneuvering icon
Shield Frequency Modulation
Weapon System Efficiency
Now just keeping at T5 and T5-U. there are things that need to change to make it more KDF. As it is, it's just a Federation ship with a KDF skin. We'll just use the T5-U for this.
First let us start with the Boff Layout. Which... isn't all the great. This is a War Cruiser. So it needs to be built for that. As it is... yeah.. you're doing little more than flying a sedated elephant in to battle. So some adjustment.
I'd go with this as the Boff seating.
Boff Seating: Command Tactical, Lt Com Eng, Lt Sci, Lt Uni, En Uni.
Now we look at hull. Which is good. So...
Hull: 50,025
Then Shield Mod, again this is good so we keep it.
Shield Mod : 1
Weapons.. ugh.. this isn't a Federation ship. So..
Weapons: Fore 5(6) Aft: 3(2) (I'd go with 5/3 because it is a cruiser after all, 6/2 would be more raider)
Can equip Dual Cannons.
Devices, good.
Device Slots : 4
Consoles, yeah its a war cruiser...
Tac: 5 Eng:4 Sci:2
Turn Rate... umm.... ummm.. yup sedated elephant.
Turn Rate: 8
Impulse Mod, looks good. It is a war cruiser after all.
Impulse Mod: 0.15
Inertia, is good. It's hard to stop.
Inertia: 18
For a T5-U the Bonus power is good.
Bonus Power:
+10 weapons
+10 Engines
So with just a minor adjustment to the Boff seating, Weapons setup, consoles and Turn Rate. This is now a ship, more befitting the name Bortasqu'. While it's not perfect, it is better. Of course this is also adding in the missing Command ability as well. Also keeping the cloak and the HoH'SuS BoP.
The ship mastery looks good as well. So no real need to note or adjust that.
Did anyone else read the Conquests posting put up today?
Finally, S’taass broke the silence and said, “You don’t really understand why the Klingon Empire is a spacefaring power, do you?”
Kuumaarke paused and then replied, “I’m… sure that has something to do with the issues at hand, but I don’t see what. The story is that they… killed their gods? Took the power of spaceflight from them, and now they conquer throughout the galaxy?”
S’taass said, “That is a superficial view. To be expected. Klingons, as a species, require conflict. It is built into them – into their biology, to be precise. A Klingon can only truly experience joy, ecstasy, exhilaration—all of the elevating emotions that drive so many species to their height—from conflict. In order to be at their best, to be ‘truly Klingon’ as they might say, they must fight, struggle, and suffer. So, you see, they could never remain on Qo’noS. No matter how much glory there was in combat against other Houses, eventually those conflicts would grow stale and predictable. The Klingons had to go into space so that they could continue to grow—not just as an Empire, but as a people.”
And here's what I wrote in the first post in this thread.
Q: Now, is it safe to say Klingons are "space cavemen" as a starting point?
A: No, it is not.
A more fair reading of Klingons would be to read their society as being fundamentally "expansionist" in that they always need to be looking (and moving) outwards ... lest they turn inwards upon themselves. By having an "Other" to struggle/fight with they can direct their own passions, drives and spirit "against" someone other than themselves. They are less interested in Exploration as some sort of noble pursuit for knowledge and understanding than they are interested in Conquest for the pursuit of bragging rights, trophies and triumphs.
In this respect, the allusion to Viking culture seems most apt, in that they would prefer to go out and kick over someone else than stay at home and kick over each other. The problem is that "staying home" and fighting amongst themselves is pretty much (galactically speaking) a Zero Sum Game ... while going out and "conquering new worlds" for the Greater Glory Of The Empire means an ever increasing pie (to fight over) for everyone to partake from. So I look at the Klingons as always looking "outwards" for new ... opportunities ... to enrich themselves and their society.
In the TOS "The Trouble With Tribbles" episode, Kirk says that in the competition that the Federation is in with the Klingons over Sherman's Planet, the Klingons are "savage and brutal, but most efficient" and that without the grain shipment stored on Deep Space Station K7 the Federation is very likely to "lose" the race to develop Sherman's Planet in the competition set up by the Organian Peace Treaty.
War is just "politics by other means" and even in the TOS era, it was stated with pride (by Kor!) that "war is a game, that Klingons know how to play well."
===
Q: It has been pointed out the possibility of Napoleon complex. Do you think there's some of that too?
A: No.
Think of it this way.
Vulcan revere logic because they have to. Without logic ... what is a Vulcan? Short answer, an incredibly dangerous individual whose actions cannot be predicted and with passions they may not be able to control.
Do "modern" (i.e. post-TOS) Klingons revere honor the way they do because they have to in order to preserve their society? Was Klingon society dealt such a savage blow between TOS and TNG that in order to "guard" against what almost led them to destroy themselves, they settled on using Honor to reign in and control the worst aspects of their civilization ... much like how the Vulcans turned to Logic to save themselves from their worst impulses? Is that why "dishonorable" acts are so frowned upon in Klingon culture?
To bring this back to "Klingons are Space Vikings" ... consider that Klingons have the equivalent to Valhalla. To get to Sto'Vo'Kor you need to not only die with Honor, but also die a Warrior. Those who die in dishonor and disgrace are instead consigned to the Barge Of The Dead which ferries the "damned" to the Gates of Gre'thor, never to return. Considering what B'Elanna Torres encountered on her way to Gre'thor, it's not hard to imagine that all "right thinking Klingons" would value their honor so highly as to become one of the prime drivers of their entire culture. If all it takes is a few near death experiences to figure out what dishonor MEANS, then it's no wonder the entire Klingon race became obsessed with Honor.
The thing is, what are the "shortcuts" to achieving Honor, and thus a place in Sto'Vo'Kor?
Well ... fame certainly helps ... and how do you get to be famous, and have your name (and your deeds) remembered "forever" ...? Simple, do it the way the Vikings did it ... with songs and sagas.
Ever heard of Beowulf?
So no, I don't view the Klingons, as a culture or as a species, as having a Napoleon complex. What I do see them doing however is having an eternal/perpetual "competition" for Fame and Glory, so as to worthy of entry into Sto'Vo'Kor, which doesn't accept wimps, losers or cheaters (see: Valhalla). Tack on the requirement/pre-requisite of being a Warrior in order to accomplish that and you get a Warrior Culture that is always looking around for the next Victory against SOMEBODY and you've got an entire society primed to "test their mettle" at almost every opportunity that presents itself.
Think of it this way. Starfleet says they want to Explore simply for the purpose of Discovery. Klingons would also want to Explore, but they would be after the opportunities for Conquest. In that respect, the Klingons would share a lot in common with the Terran Empire of the Mirror Universe (although the parallel isn't perfect, of course) ... just as I would expect the Klingons of the Mirror Universe to be the Explorers who make Discoveries for the Klingon Star Forces in the Mirror Universe.
So no, not a Napoleon complex. Instead, they are driven by the imperatives of their culture To Be Great ... lest they be forgotten and their names only whispered in shame and disgrace. That's a hell of a thing to have to live up to. It's not Ancestor Worship, but it's a hell of a Darwinian pressure cooker on their society.
So yeah. Definitely feeling vindicated.
When I read S'taass say that about the Empire, I immediately harkened back to this thread, and the discussions we had going in it. I think it's pretty safe to say that our friends on the Dev team were paying attention to the things we mentioned.
Just got done reading Conquest. S'tass is one of my favorite NPCs in the game. Clearly somebody at Cryptic read this thread at least once. Here's hoping the do so more often with these forums.
"To Be Great". To do things which require others to acknowledge your presence and speak of it in a reverent and respectful fashion. To accomplish something which all subjects of the Empire must acknowledge as worthy of emulation. To avoid being cast upon the trash heap of those forgettable people who fail.
To be tlh'Ingan in thought, word, deed and spirit.
More, to be a tlh'Ingan who sets an example which others willingly and openly follow and desire to copy. To be a tlh'Ingan whose birth ensures the continuation of the Empire and the Homeworld. And moves the Empire and the Klingon people along the path to greatness.
Yeah, autumnturning. I heard you loud and clearly. Well said. As you usually do.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Gotta say I really enjoyed reading that last article. They did a surprisingly good job at portraying the Klingons, and I appreciate the effort shown there. I wonder why they didn't post a topic about it in "News and Announcements" like they usually do.
Comments
I didn't think the mention of cave men was worth acknowledging. I leaned toward the Mongol tribes Like the Golden Horde and the ones that came before. Ferocious and purposeful when there is an external threat or war to be waged but given to infighting and rivalries in "peace". I wouldn't describe Klingon nature as a biological imperative so much as social engineering on the part of Kahless; More likely someone who had to keep order after his passing. There is nearly a Darwinian drive to fight and challenge in order that the Empire can be protected. Aggression makes for great theatre and spectacle but canny leaders and cunning are equally revered. Our ramblings on the forms of ships are fairly similar.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
We know klingons like facing their opponents, and the more weapon firing forward the better.
The mogh/kurak is perfect for in this thinking.
As for Klingon ships the only design they have come out with that was just awful in my opinion was the command cruiser tier six. The rest of it I think captured the essence. I am still waiting for them to release the tier4/5 carriers as tier 6. The KDF is not going to find its 'soul' until they do a overhaul of pvp, and let the KDF do what it does best. This being killing Federation ships.
Wo wo wo dude relax please....
I was not talking about design of how the ships perform, so much as the look. If I was reading the op correctly they were having trouble finding the right look for kdf ships, hence my post. The only ship that seemed to miss it by a mile was command cruiser. I look at the Bortasque as a challenge, which is why I am making it my main ship. Flying bops, and escorts is a challenge. Once you learn them it is rewarding. This beast has a slow rate of turn, and like you said most people build it as a beam boat. This being said if I can make it work well that will be reward enough.
One last thing the KDF has been known to build huge ships, if you play starfleet academy, thier dreadnought is a four engine beast. The Negh'var was the first huge ship they built since that time, so they do sometimes build large dreadnoughts. On the design, yes I am well aware the devs are TRIBBLE the kdf into the ground, and it would not surprise me in the next year if they revamped pvp. Made sure all the kdf had was big beast like ships that fire like fed ships. The two things the kdf had, was carriers, bop battle cloak, and quick/fast heavy battle cruisers. Two of those things are gone and open to all now, but they did put in the qib, which is quick and agile. She is mostly engineering bridge officer slots. The intel aspect to me feels way too long apply to be of any real use. So it was a improvement but not a complete improvement in my opinion. Then again I did try her with cannons, and it did not seem to work out well. Perhaps I am just out of practice.
Might make a observation?
I think you might be ticked because they put the D7 tier six ship in a lockbox, and worried that they may do the same to the vor'cha. I could be wrong. I really hope they dont, but they always feed the kdf scraps and thats nothing new.
But the Vor'Cha? That just seems unjustifieable. It's been a fully fledged endgame ship until Tier 6 arrived. "Lockboxing" it would seem very, very problematic.
Heck, back in the Delta Recruit event, I ran most of the missions at L50-60 in a T3 K't'inga. Tricky, even on normal difficulty, but doable.
Cryptic won't ever trumpet how easy it is to run content in lower-tier ships, as that would hit their sales, but that's how the game us built.
This is why I wrote up my response (to kick off this thread) the way that I did, so as to supplement the answers of Yes/No with the necessary support of Why/Why Not. That way, you can "guide & shape" the understanding of expectations in a USEFUL direction, instead of just stamping feet and screaming "you're doing it wrong!" with no additional information.
All of the art direction choices we saw on television happened for REASONS. It's important to be able to understand those reasons and accept them for what they are (and why they came about) so as to be able to grow and extend beyond them into the regions of (artistic) theory that are being asked about while remaining consistent with, and an extension of, What Came Before so as to lend authenticity and acceptance On Sight of the artistic direction used.
"There are no experimental failures. There's only more data."
- Bryce Lynch, Network XXIII Head of Research and Development
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
When I still had hope, yea my blood pressure would go up, but no more. The only thing getting my blood pressure up right now is someone in gen discussion trying to nerf tacs into the ground.
As for the KDF ship design shame on that dev 10,000xs over. Years ago I put together a list of all the art mistakes for the KDF, and several KDF players at the time added to the list, and even commented that these were things that turned their friends off to the KDF. So I am not sure why this dev is having trouble. The information has been put out their, and I am sure I am not the only one to put such a list out their at some point or another.
As for ship design. Number one above all else, is the importance of the Bird of Prey, yet we keep being given the B'rel. The smallest and saddest bop of them all. This one was all cryptic and I loved the design Ning'tau Bird of Prey. It was unique it was Klingon! The heavy bird of prey was also a fantastic design with a crew of 100 warriors. The Bop bridges in this game were done well and good. The interior hull design is way too big and is based off of Federation design. Instead of using metal as the bed, and ladders to get around the ship, everything has the stench of Federation design. Something the devs do not understand. Klingon ships are not built to be roomy. Second key class of Klingon ship design the D7 battlecruiser variant. Its light, its fast, and its death. The third key class of Klingon ship design, the Klingon carriers, merely because they broke the feds like a twig being broken in your hand. The last but key aspect is the Negh'var, the heavy battlecruiser. I like the Bortasqu, got decent at it too, but in the end I couldnt argue with the fact that it fired like a fed ship. The raptor what is it? You look at the raptor in this game, and I dont think the devs know what a raptor is. I sure dont, sense we have only seen it one time. A scout vessel? I dont think so its too heavily armed. When you have raptors with 16 turn rate and then ones with 20+ turn rate, its hard to gage what class of ship they are. The met'ha was a fine ship, but way too bulky to be of any use.
Thats my thoughts. One last thing in case the devs actually read this forum. If they really want to know about Klingon design, then for the love of everything on this earth stay the hell away from fan sites or Redit. Put the information here and I am certain many KDF players will tell them exactly what Klingon Design is.
But after you've tried PVPing in a Bortasqu' an Engineer captain, anything is easy (looking at you patrickngo!)
If you look at the T6 ships that were released. The great majority of them have the same stats as their Federation counter part. Which isn't a bad thing. But, when looking at it from a KDF point a view. It's not how the ship would actually be designed. The Bortasqu', while a somewhat decent ship, isn't built like a the design would have it. It's layout would be better served on a Corsair or Marauder. Something big and hard to maneuver.
This means the problem is within the stats and overall layout. You know, weapon slots, consoles, boff layout, impulse, shield and all that. So let's look at the Bortasqu' War Cruiser.
Tier:5
Upgrade cost: Requires an Upgrade Token
Type:Battle Cruiser
Admiralty stats:Adm tac 28 Adm eng 52 Adm sci 18
Hull:43,500
Hull (T5-U):50,025
Shield Modifier:1
Weapons:Fore 4 Aft 4
Can equip dual cannons.
Bridge Officers:Lieutenant Tactical, Commander Engineering, Lieutenant Science, Ensign Universal, Lieutenant Commander Universal,
Device Slots:4
Consoles:
Tac: 4
Eng: 5
Sci: 1
Console (T5-U):Console sci +1
Turn Rate:5.5
Impulse Modifier:0.15
Inertia rating:18
Bonus Power:
+10 weapons power
+10 engine power
Abilities:Cloak
Launch HoH'SuS Bird of Prey
Strategic Maneuvering icon
Shield Frequency Modulation
Weapon System Efficiency
Now just keeping at T5 and T5-U. there are things that need to change to make it more KDF. As it is, it's just a Federation ship with a KDF skin. We'll just use the T5-U for this.
First let us start with the Boff Layout. Which... isn't all the great. This is a War Cruiser. So it needs to be built for that. As it is... yeah.. you're doing little more than flying a sedated elephant in to battle. So some adjustment.
I'd go with this as the Boff seating.
Boff Seating: Command Tactical, Lt Com Eng, Lt Sci, Lt Uni, En Uni.
Now we look at hull. Which is good. So...
Hull: 50,025
Then Shield Mod, again this is good so we keep it.
Shield Mod : 1
Weapons.. ugh.. this isn't a Federation ship. So..
Weapons: Fore 5(6) Aft: 3(2) (I'd go with 5/3 because it is a cruiser after all, 6/2 would be more raider)
Can equip Dual Cannons.
Devices, good.
Device Slots : 4
Consoles, yeah its a war cruiser...
Tac: 5 Eng:4 Sci:2
Turn Rate... umm.... ummm.. yup sedated elephant.
Turn Rate: 8
Impulse Mod, looks good. It is a war cruiser after all.
Impulse Mod: 0.15
Inertia, is good. It's hard to stop.
Inertia: 18
For a T5-U the Bonus power is good.
Bonus Power:
+10 weapons
+10 Engines
So with just a minor adjustment to the Boff seating, Weapons setup, consoles and Turn Rate. This is now a ship, more befitting the name Bortasqu'. While it's not perfect, it is better. Of course this is also adding in the missing Command ability as well. Also keeping the cloak and the HoH'SuS BoP.
The ship mastery looks good as well. So no real need to note or adjust that.
Did anyone else read the Conquests posting put up today?
And here's what I wrote in the first post in this thread.
So yeah. Definitely feeling vindicated.
When I read S'taass say that about the Empire, I immediately harkened back to this thread, and the discussions we had going in it. I think it's pretty safe to say that our friends on the Dev team were paying attention to the things we mentioned.
And yes ... S'taass is beyond awesome.
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
"To Be Great". To do things which require others to acknowledge your presence and speak of it in a reverent and respectful fashion. To accomplish something which all subjects of the Empire must acknowledge as worthy of emulation. To avoid being cast upon the trash heap of those forgettable people who fail.
To be tlh'Ingan in thought, word, deed and spirit.
More, to be a tlh'Ingan who sets an example which others willingly and openly follow and desire to copy. To be a tlh'Ingan whose birth ensures the continuation of the Empire and the Homeworld. And moves the Empire and the Klingon people along the path to greatness.
Yeah, autumnturning. I heard you loud and clearly. Well said. As you usually do.