The answer is that the dilithium mine discount applies, but commodities are valued at replicator prices (for the most part). And they still haven't removed the photon torpedoes and commodities from some projects.
Well that figures. So fleets that are still building are being hit with a 100% tax for the expensive commodities just because they wanted to change something. I never minded running to the embassy, calling a friend with a tuffli, or searching the exchange for a good deal. Perhaps they mean this to be a sink for EC. It ruins a very small part of the economy and effectively removes all value from all commodities but might sink a little EC out from people that don't have much of it. I would really like to know what the reasoning for this was.
Okay. Just got off Tribble and want to know what will happen to the old All in One Kits? Also, these kits now say 'bound to character' when they weren't bound at all before. I just use these freely between alts. The game drops are hideous and these are just easier, esp on lower level chars.
At the very least I hope they don't just leave a kit and no modules!
This is a fine question. I only have 1 character who uses an old kit and replacing it wouldn't be that hard. Knowing what will happen to it before this goes live would be nice.
The answer is that the dilithium mine discount applies, but commodities are valued at replicator prices (for the most part). And they still haven't removed the photon torpedoes and commodities from some projects.
Practice Tactical Exercises V http://i.imgur.com/s8m4gae.png
37 Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk IX
1100 Industrial Replicators
I still have no clue how this EC cost was computed.
Support Local Systems V http://i.imgur.com/rMAzcpf.png
7500 Provisions
1250 Water Purification Systems
1.5 * 0.85 * (7500 * 100 + 1250 * 400) = 1593750
Provision Trade Supplies III http://i.imgur.com/PC6i07E.png
400 Seismic Stabilizers
300 Large Power Cell
0.85 * (1.5 * 400 * 1000 + 300 * 320) = 591600
I got the original commodity and item requirements from the STO wiki:
I say that they make no sense, because I am unable to determine how they were computed based on the original project requirements. Take "Provision Operations Supplies III" for example.
Using replicator prices for commodities gives a value that comes close to, but doesn't exactly match, the actual EC cost seen on Tribble, which is 605115.
The breakdown for the EC conversion is, before any sort of cost deductions, 1 Fleet Credit = 150 Energy Credits. Costs were determined by the cost to purchase items from their appropriate stores / the Replicator. I used a Betazoid Male when calculating costs. I rounded down entries to the nearest 150.
For the example of Provision Operations Supplies III:
The breakdown for the EC conversion is, before any sort of cost deductions, 1 Fleet Credit = 150 Energy Credits. Costs were determined by the cost to purchase items from their appropriate stores / the Replicator. I used a Betazoid Male when calculating costs. I rounded down entries to the nearest 150.
For the example of Provision Operations Supplies III:
Reduce this value by 15% to reflect your Fleet Holding investments, and we end up with 605115.
OK, but why convert from EC to fleet credits and then back to EC? I don't understand the point of this calculation. And your method still doesn't explain why the EC cost of "Practice Tactical Exercises V" is 1275000.
Practice Tactical Exercises V
37 Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk IX at 13577 EC each
1100 Industrial Replicators at 800 EC each (base price)
0.85 * 150 * floor((1.5 * 1100 * 800 + 37 * 13577) / 150) = 1548870
More importantly, why are you using replicator prices for commodities? Most people buy commodities at vendors that give a 25% discount. Ferengis get an additional 20% discount on top of that (except at the embassy vendor). Replicator prices are 1.5 times the base price. By using replicator prices, you're doubling the cost for most people -- more for Ferengis. Additionally, some people get their commodities primarily through doffing. Since they can only sell commodities for half the base price, you're tripling the cost for them.
If you're really going to convert all commodity and item requirements to a generic EC cost, then you should make the following changes:
1. Commodities should be valued at the base price, not replicator prices.
2. If a fleet has completed tier 2 of the embassy, they should get a 25% discount on the EC cost of projects. The trade track of the dilithium mine should grant an additional discount on top of this: 4% at tier 1; 9% at tier 2; and 15% at tier 3.
3. Add a new vendor that pays fleet-only EC to Tuffli freighters, Suliban cell ships, and one of the fleet holdings. This vendor should buy commodities for 75% of the base price. This preserves the value of commodities for people who get them from doffing. Yes, it will allow Ferengis to sell certain commodities for more than they bought them. But since the EC can only be spent on fleet projects, it does not create feedback loop. Essentially, this change will give Ferengis the same discount they currently have on Holodeck.
EDIT: I forgot to mention one subtlety. You can choose a different value for the embassy discount, but the prices of the fleet-only-EC vendor and the embassy discount must match.
If tier 2 of the embassy gives a 25% discount on the EC cost of projects, then the fleet-only-EC vendor should buy commodities for 75% of the base price.
If tier 2 of the embassy gives a 20% discount on the EC cost of projects, then the fleet-only-EC vendor should buy commodities for 80% of the base price.
If tier 2 of the embassy gives no discount on the EC cost of projects, then the fleet-only-EC vendor should buy commodities for 100% of the base price.
Costs were determined by the cost to purchase items from their appropriate stores / the Replicator. I used a Betazoid Male when calculating costs.
The replicator is the most expensive place to BUY commodities.
The first thing I was advised as a noobie: SKIP buying Commodities in BULK from the replicator. (And don't SELL things off to the Replicator, either, as they don't pay as much.)
+++++++++++
I think you should dump that Betazoid and do as I (and probably, every fleet) did/does....for your calculations.
And that is: I MADE a Ferengi and I use it JUST to buy Commodities and Torpedoes in bulk for the Fleet projects.
That Ferengi was the ONLY Federation character I had (until AoY, of course).
Because of this advantage for my KDF fleet and acquisition of resources for projects.
That is part of the reason I keep wishing for Ferengis on the KDF side...it would save me the step of moving things over.
Same reason I keep my Romulan: advantage recruiting DOFFs for the fleet projects.
++++++++++++++++
Need I mention: I obsessively SAVE all my commodities from Marauding DOFF assignments.
I normally do not have to buy as many commodities via Ferengi, Tuffli, Cell ship, Exchange, or Embassy, route at all. I got them via DOFFing.
PLEASE re-evaluate how your players are go about filling those Commodities and Torpedo requirements and come up with reasonable EC costs for Fleet projects.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I'm adjusting the EC > FC rate from 150 to 100 -- using the highest common denominator was a bit excessive in hindsight.
The fleet project costs are going to be adjusted accordingly.
I've also cleaned up a few more entries which have been reported as still having commodities / extraneous items on them.
I'm adjusting the EC > FC rate from 150 to 100 -- using the highest common denominator was a bit excessive in hindsight.
The fleet project costs are going to be adjusted accordingly.
I've also cleaned up a few more entries which have been reported as still having commodities / extraneous items on them.
I still don't understand why an intermediate conversion step to fleet credits is necessary. If you remove the rounding, all you're doing is dividing by 150 and then multiplying by 150 again. If you change the conversion rate from 150 to 100, then all you'll be doing is dividing by 100 and then multiplying by 100 again (with some rounding in between). The problem is not the conversion rate between fleet credits and energy credits; it's using replicator prices for commodities.
I would have performed the calculation like this (my changes in red):
Reduce this value by 15% to reflect your dilithium mine investments, and we end up with 435200.
Of course, without the discounts we currently get on commodities, this is still a higher price than we would pay today. Furthermore, doffers can no longer use the commodities that they get from doff assignments. If you implement the embassy discount and the fleet-only-EC vendor that I mentioned in my previous post, that would bring us closer to current EC costs on Holodeck.
Well if you think that Doffs could also be converted to EC then you would need that Fleet Credit to EC conversion.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
IMO the whole point of making stuff cost bajillions of EC is in order to make Fleet Projects into an EC sink in order to reduce the total amount of EC in the economy and thus reverse the inflation that has been seen where some items (e.g. ultra-rare ships) are being sold for more than the EC cap--i.e. for more EC than a single character can actually hold.
As such, I would like very much to see a project that can be slotted in the "bonus projects" slot (the fifth one on the Starbase tab) that simply takes several million EC and nothing else to complete--basically an EC version of the existing project that takes only Fleet Marks. This would allow players who have EC but don't want to bother with amassing Marks to acquire some Fleet Credits.
Might have been better addressing the Doff requirement for Starbase progression. You are already removing it from those Reputation Projects like for Elite Scorpions or Widows.
That is the single biggest PITA in progressing the Starbase and is usually why it takes so long to make reasonably timed progress. I mean, really now, moving the Starbase sub-sections from Tier 4 to 5 requires 69,300 Common Doffs...
As others have mentioned, the doff requirement is the biggest hindrance to fleet progression. In every fleet in our armada the only thing to donate to is always doffs. So changing the way to be able to buy commodities is fixing a problem that doesn't exist. If there is a way to allow us to be able to buy doffs in bulk, that would be a huge help.
I hope we are not past the point where we can convince you to make changes to the new EC conversion prices for Fleet Projects. PLEASE use the lowest available prices..and apply it for EVERYONE.
I would like to see everyone get these discounts 100% of the time. This is especially important on BULK purchases like the Fleet Projects....it really adds up. People who had no access to a Ferengi, did not have access to Tuffli/Cell ships 100% of the time would not get these discounts. This would be a chance to level that playing field.
This will also give the best EC costs possible to new fleets, current fleets with incomplete Fleet Holdings and to the fleets over on the Console side.
P.S. The absolute lowest prices would be: Buying Commodities from other players at the Exchange who sold them for less than Tuffli/Cell ships and Fleet Embassy (though, people do get lazy and not double check prices). Besides with the change to directly inputting EC instead of Commodities, prices in the Exchange no longer matter.
Embassy Discount Commodity Prices
(Lobes discount never worked at the Embassy, so everyone gets the same prices)
Torpedoes @ Shipyard
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Any partially completed projects will have their commodity/item requirements removed and replaced with an Energy Credit requirement and the associated progress will be lost.
This hasn't been discussed in a while, but are you really going to erase all progress on commodity and item requirements come Tuesday? Does this also affect projects whose timers are already counting down, or only those that have not been filled yet?
If timers are counting down then it it not partially completed but is completed.
Hopefully they only refer to the Commodity/Photon Torpedo, etc. portion of the Project where progress will be lost. If those portions are completed it will convert to EC but be marked as filled.
As it is there will be wailing and nashing, but if they were to set EC Requirements to zero for Projects that had already fulfilled all the Commodity requirements all heck would break loose.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
Well that figures. So fleets that are still building are being hit with a 100% tax for the expensive commodities just because they wanted to change something. I never minded running to the embassy, calling a friend with a tuffli, or searching the exchange for a good deal. Perhaps they mean this to be a sink for EC. It ruins a very small part of the economy and effectively removes all value from all commodities but might sink a little EC out from people that don't have much of it. I would really like to know what the reasoning for this was.
This is a fine question. I only have 1 character who uses an old kit and replacing it wouldn't be that hard. Knowing what will happen to it before this goes live would be nice.
Here are more EC costs that make no sense.
http://i.imgur.com/x0uGaLE.png
http://i.imgur.com/zfm8Q3J.png
I say that they make no sense, because I am unable to determine how they were computed based on the original project requirements. Take "Provision Operations Supplies III" for example.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/List_of_spire_projects
Provision Operations Supplies III
http://i.imgur.com/zfm8Q3J.png
400 Seismic Stabilizers
350 Large Shield Charge
0.85 * (1.5 * 400 * 1000 + 350 * 320) = 605200
Using replicator prices for commodities gives a value that comes close to, but doesn't exactly match, the actual EC cost seen on Tribble, which is 605115.
For the example of Provision Operations Supplies III:
400 Seismic Stabilizers
350 Large Shield Charge
1 Seismic Stabilizer = 1500 EC
1 Large Shield Charge = 320 EC
400*1500+320*350 = 712000
712000 / 150 = 4746.66(repeating) Fleet Credits
Rounded down, 4746*150 = 711900
Reduce this value by 15% to reflect your Fleet Holding investments, and we end up with 605115.
OK, but why convert from EC to fleet credits and then back to EC? I don't understand the point of this calculation. And your method still doesn't explain why the EC cost of "Practice Tactical Exercises V" is 1275000.
http://i.imgur.com/s8m4gae.png
When I apply your method, I get 1548870 instead.
Practice Tactical Exercises V
37 Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk IX at 13577 EC each
1100 Industrial Replicators at 800 EC each (base price)
0.85 * 150 * floor((1.5 * 1100 * 800 + 37 * 13577) / 150) = 1548870
More importantly, why are you using replicator prices for commodities? Most people buy commodities at vendors that give a 25% discount. Ferengis get an additional 20% discount on top of that (except at the embassy vendor). Replicator prices are 1.5 times the base price. By using replicator prices, you're doubling the cost for most people -- more for Ferengis. Additionally, some people get their commodities primarily through doffing. Since they can only sell commodities for half the base price, you're tripling the cost for them.
If you're really going to convert all commodity and item requirements to a generic EC cost, then you should make the following changes:
1. Commodities should be valued at the base price, not replicator prices.
2. If a fleet has completed tier 2 of the embassy, they should get a 25% discount on the EC cost of projects. The trade track of the dilithium mine should grant an additional discount on top of this: 4% at tier 1; 9% at tier 2; and 15% at tier 3.
3. Add a new vendor that pays fleet-only EC to Tuffli freighters, Suliban cell ships, and one of the fleet holdings. This vendor should buy commodities for 75% of the base price. This preserves the value of commodities for people who get them from doffing. Yes, it will allow Ferengis to sell certain commodities for more than they bought them. But since the EC can only be spent on fleet projects, it does not create feedback loop. Essentially, this change will give Ferengis the same discount they currently have on Holodeck.
EDIT: I forgot to mention one subtlety. You can choose a different value for the embassy discount, but the prices of the fleet-only-EC vendor and the embassy discount must match.
The replicator is the most expensive place to BUY commodities.
The first thing I was advised as a noobie: SKIP buying Commodities in BULK from the replicator. (And don't SELL things off to the Replicator, either, as they don't pay as much.)
+++++++++++
I think you should dump that Betazoid and do as I (and probably, every fleet) did/does....for your calculations.
And that is: I MADE a Ferengi and I use it JUST to buy Commodities and Torpedoes in bulk for the Fleet projects.
That Ferengi was the ONLY Federation character I had (until AoY, of course).
Because of this advantage for my KDF fleet and acquisition of resources for projects.
That is part of the reason I keep wishing for Ferengis on the KDF side...it would save me the step of moving things over.
Same reason I keep my Romulan: advantage recruiting DOFFs for the fleet projects.
++++++++++++++++
Need I mention: I obsessively SAVE all my commodities from Marauding DOFF assignments.
I normally do not have to buy as many commodities via Ferengi, Tuffli, Cell ship, Exchange, or Embassy, route at all. I got them via DOFFing.
PLEASE re-evaluate how your players are go about filling those Commodities and Torpedo requirements and come up with reasonable EC costs for Fleet projects.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
The fleet project costs are going to be adjusted accordingly.
I've also cleaned up a few more entries which have been reported as still having commodities / extraneous items on them.
I still don't understand why an intermediate conversion step to fleet credits is necessary. If you remove the rounding, all you're doing is dividing by 150 and then multiplying by 150 again. If you change the conversion rate from 150 to 100, then all you'll be doing is dividing by 100 and then multiplying by 100 again (with some rounding in between). The problem is not the conversion rate between fleet credits and energy credits; it's using replicator prices for commodities.
I would have performed the calculation like this (my changes in red):
Of course, without the discounts we currently get on commodities, this is still a higher price than we would pay today. Furthermore, doffers can no longer use the commodities that they get from doff assignments. If you implement the embassy discount and the fleet-only-EC vendor that I mentioned in my previous post, that would bring us closer to current EC costs on Holodeck.
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/comment/13075675/#Comment_13075675
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
As such, I would like very much to see a project that can be slotted in the "bonus projects" slot (the fifth one on the Starbase tab) that simply takes several million EC and nothing else to complete--basically an EC version of the existing project that takes only Fleet Marks. This would allow players who have EC but don't want to bother with amassing Marks to acquire some Fleet Credits.
As others have mentioned, the doff requirement is the biggest hindrance to fleet progression. In every fleet in our armada the only thing to donate to is always doffs. So changing the way to be able to buy commodities is fixing a problem that doesn't exist. If there is a way to allow us to be able to buy doffs in bulk, that would be a huge help.
So, make it so!
I would like to see everyone get these discounts 100% of the time. This is especially important on BULK purchases like the Fleet Projects....it really adds up. People who had no access to a Ferengi, did not have access to Tuffli/Cell ships 100% of the time would not get these discounts. This would be a chance to level that playing field.
This will also give the best EC costs possible to new fleets, current fleets with incomplete Fleet Holdings and to the fleets over on the Console side.
P.S. The absolute lowest prices would be: Buying Commodities from other players at the Exchange who sold them for less than Tuffli/Cell ships and Fleet Embassy (though, people do get lazy and not double check prices). Besides with the change to directly inputting EC instead of Commodities, prices in the Exchange no longer matter.
Embassy Discount Commodity Prices
(Lobes discount never worked at the Embassy, so everyone gets the same prices)
Torpedoes @ Shipyard
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
This hasn't been discussed in a while, but are you really going to erase all progress on commodity and item requirements come Tuesday? Does this also affect projects whose timers are already counting down, or only those that have not been filled yet?
Hopefully they only refer to the Commodity/Photon Torpedo, etc. portion of the Project where progress will be lost. If those portions are completed it will convert to EC but be marked as filled.
As it is there will be wailing and nashing, but if they were to set EC Requirements to zero for Projects that had already fulfilled all the Commodity requirements all heck would break loose.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'