Actually there are enlisted starfleet personnel who are not ncos who are seen on screen, like the afore- mentioned poor quarter- Romulan from The Drumhead who specifically mentions that while he considered going to the Academy he was impatient to get into space and took the fast route. Then there is Sergei Rozhenko who talked of the pride it gave an old enlisted man to see his son become an officer.
They're crewmen. I never said they didn't exist (in fact they out-number NCOs) but they're still insignificant compared to officers (mainly ensigns)
Couple more things. Regarding civillian contractors, any civillian not a member of Starfleet working on a starship or starbase is a civillian contractor, its the very definition, Boothby being a great example. Regarding Starfleet reserves, since any retired Starfleet personell can be recalled to active duty at any time (McCoy TMP) then if nothing else they can be classed as Starfleet reservists.
Not if they're not working for Starfleet. Guinan isn't working for Starfleet and she's not being paid for her service nor is she paying for Ten Forward. And was McCoy retired? I thought he was on extended leave.
Even if he had quit that rule was obviously overturned by TNG (and DS9/VOY) as every time an officer wanted to do something a little bit dodgy they'd put their combadge dramatically on a table and act as if Starfleet no longer had any power over them.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Way I see it. You have fleets that patrols certain sectors and planets. So that way they can rapid response. Then your stations usually have some on hand as well to protect them. Or to use for other missions. Like the Defiant to DS9. I do know your bulk of the fleet would be more of the smaller vessels. Just like the US Navy. As their bulk is the support ships. Like I gave that number, that is a lot as well. But it could be possible.
I would say a good number would be at least 10k to help cover those areas.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I do not accept that people in the Federation do not get paid. Were that true Beverley would not have been able to purchase cloth at Farpoint, Riker would not have been able gamble at Quark's etc. Additionally Boothby does not strike me as the type to spend decades laboring away at Starfleet Academy for free. What form exactly they recieve their compensation is not important.
As for McCoy in TMP he stated that he was retired.
Very true. I think they get something to allow commerce with others that require some type of payment. But they try not to show that. As they don't want $ to be a driving force of the show.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I do not accept that people in the Federation do not get paid. Were that true Beverley would not have been able to purchase cloth at Farpoint, Riker would not have been able gamble at Quark's etc. Additionally Boothby does not strike me as the type to spend decades laboring away at Starfleet Academy for free. What form exactly they recieve their compensation is not important.
As for McCoy in TMP he stated that he was retired.
There is obviously an economy, it just operates in a very different way from how our own system works. Specifics kept quiet for obvious reasons. It effectively wipes out internal trade for profit. If you need it, then someone will get it to you (unless you've got questionable motives for acquiring it). There is some sort of system for external dealings though, how the two systems operate is a mystery though.
I believe it's logical to conclude that the Federation provides services. They can range from protection and scientifical, technological, etc, data sharing to field work, as in engineering, construction, etc. Also it's quite probable that the Federation "pays" some things in materials, supplies and resources.
You don't really need an internal economy with currency. Money and modern economy was invented to facilitate transactions because there was a different "opinion" on what something is worth in exchange for something else. If you exclude that notion, you don't need money. For instance, a lawyer may not accept a basket of apples as payment because he feels he deserves to be paid more. But if he's fine with the basket, he won't need money. Mere example.
Having just finished reading the novel Articles of Federation, it made it very clear there's only 154 member systems in the Federation. And every Star Trek plot I've ever encountered makes it pretty clear there's not even one ship per system most days - they have to move around to react to problems. Add 10-15 along each of the 3 major fronts and another maybe 25-35 that actually get to be full time explorers. The Titan series indicated having even a dozen dedicated deep space explorers was a privilege Starfleet hadn't enjoyed in a decade or more...
I'd argue Starfleet normally has slightly less than 200 interstellar ships of classes we'd think of as T3 or higher. A number that makes the loss of 39 to the Borg the kind of major blow that's made out to be.
Having just finished reading the novel Articles of Federation, it made it very clear there's only 154 member systems in the Federation. And every Star Trek plot I've ever encountered makes it pretty clear there's not even one ship per system most days - they have to move around to react to problems. Add 10-15 along each of the 3 major fronts and another maybe 25-35 that actually get to be full time explorers. The Titan series indicated having even a dozen dedicated deep space explorers was a privilege Starfleet hadn't enjoyed in a decade or more...
I'd argue Starfleet normally has slightly less than 200 interstellar ships of classes we'd think of as T3 or higher. A number that makes the loss of 39 to the Borg the kind of major blow that's made out to be.
Still, how would you explain the vast fleets Starfleet drummed up during the Dominion War? With a lot of Nebula's, Galaxies, Defiants, Excelsiors and such.
Having just finished reading the novel Articles of Federation, it made it very clear there's only 154 member systems in the Federation. And every Star Trek plot I've ever encountered makes it pretty clear there's not even one ship per system most days - they have to move around to react to problems. Add 10-15 along each of the 3 major fronts and another maybe 25-35 that actually get to be full time explorers. The Titan series indicated having even a dozen dedicated deep space explorers was a privilege Starfleet hadn't enjoyed in a decade or more...
I'd argue Starfleet normally has slightly less than 200 interstellar ships of classes we'd think of as T3 or higher. A number that makes the loss of 39 to the Borg the kind of major blow that's made out to be.
Still, how would you explain the vast fleets Starfleet drummed up during the Dominion War? With a lot of Nebula's, Galaxies, Defiants, Excelsiors and such.
Well in the early going of the war the bulk of those fleets was old Excelsior and Miranda class ships, we know from the TNG that Starfleet has sites where they keep decommissioned ships. If they keep the bulk of their old ships in storage then it means that during the build up to the Dominion War they could have been hastily refitting those older ships and sending them back out into service.
By the end of the war as ship production had ramped up and older ships were destroyed it would make sense that we would be seeing a larger proportion of newer ship classes in battle.
On a different note I've always found the portrayal of Federation worlds to be really hit and miss. For every industrial Earth-like world we see there seem to be a dozen agricultural worlds with populations only in the thousands and no particular industrial capacity. There is also the issue of how little civilian ship traffic we see in orbit of Federation worlds. Think for a moment and try to recall the last time you ever saw any merchant ships when they show Earth. Earth is the capital planet of the Federation, it should be a bustling beehive of traffic, yet it is always super sparse. At times it almost makes you wonder if the Federation prohibits space travel as part of their dogmatic Prime Directive enforcement.
I do not accept that people in the Federation do not get paid. Were that true Beverley would not have been able to purchase cloth at Farpoint, Riker would not have been able gamble at Quark's etc. Additionally Boothby does not strike me as the type to spend decades laboring away at Starfleet Academy for free. What form exactly they recieve their compensation is not important.
From what I've seen of production interviews and in story dialogue we are supposed to believe that in the 24th century people perform back breaking hard labor on a day to day basis not for monetary gain, but rather because they genuinely enjoy tiresome repetitive labor.
It would honestly make much more sense if all the random laborers we see were instead robots, androids, and holograms. The alternative sounds more like a really effective indoctrination program to create a happy servant class.
Each of the member states of the Federation would have to have some sort of patrol organization. Think coast guard and police ships and emergency services and the like. And these national fleets would also have to have support and logistics vessels as well. Then there are the merchant fleets of each member state.
I imagine from time to time, a member state would 'contract out' part of its national fleet to Starfleet and the Federation. For disaster relief and such. These ships would far outnumber what we think of as 'true' Starfleet. Yet they would be part of Starfleet for a limited time with limited goals. So, "Starfleet" could be enormous one day and about a quarter of that size the next.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Just to note, I don't remember if the show had it, but Vulcan in the novelization of 'Unification' had their local defense forces respond when the Romulan Trojan horse trap got revealed by Spock.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
(...)From what I've seen of production interviews and in story dialogue we are supposed to believe that in the 24th century people perform back breaking hard labor on a day to day basis not for monetary gain, but rather because they genuinely enjoy tiresome repetitive labor.
It would honestly make much more sense if all the random laborers we see were instead robots, androids, and holograms. The alternative sounds more like a really effective indoctrination program to create a happy servant class.
Believe or not, but people can find happiness in a "basic" lifestyle like that, especially in the high tech future. But Star Trek depicts a general mentality that is so alien from ours it's hard to comprehend, but just as an example: After doing many years of studying and doing scientific work there are days (at the moment a lot in fact) where I would love nothing more than shoveling animal dung again (I was a zoo handler/keeper before I pursued a scientific education). Now Imagine a time where everything's taken care of by automation and people are left with educating themselves in science and arts. I would imagine the desire to just farm, garden or build something would be immense from time to time.
Only thing I can agree on however is that some colony worlds are depicted rather strangely, with literally all the labour being done manually. Using androids and holograms to perform those tasks would be a violation of UFP principles, as both are recognized as being lifeforms on at least a few occasions, but some more artificial help would surely be in order.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
(...)From what I've seen of production interviews and in story dialogue we are supposed to believe that in the 24th century people perform back breaking hard labor on a day to day basis not for monetary gain, but rather because they genuinely enjoy tiresome repetitive labor.
It would honestly make much more sense if all the random laborers we see were instead robots, androids, and holograms. The alternative sounds more like a really effective indoctrination program to create a happy servant class.
Believe or not, but people can find happiness in a "basic" lifestyle like that, especially in the high tech future. But Star Trek depicts a general mentality that is so alien from ours it's hard to comprehend, but just as an example: After doing many years of studying and doing scientific work there are days (at the moment a lot in fact) where I would love nothing more than shoveling animal dung again (I was a zoo handler/keeper before I pursued a scientific education). Now Imagine a time where everything's taken care of by automation and people are left with educating themselves in science and arts. I would imagine the desire to just farm, garden or build something would be immense from time to time.
Only thing I can agree on however is that some colony worlds are depicted rather strangely, with literally all the labour being done manually. Using androids and holograms to perform those tasks would be a violation of UFP principles, as both are recognized as being lifeforms on at least a few occasions, but some more artificial help would surely be in order.
You are absolutely right. There are several tasks, hard and "not glamorous" that can provide us a huge sense of achievement and make us feel phenomenal.
It would honestly make much more sense if all the random laborers we see were instead robots, androids, and holograms. The alternative sounds more like a really effective indoctrination program to create a happy servant class.
As was established in the show, even if androids were developed they couldn't be used as slave labour in case of sentience. In Voyager it is established that holograms have started to be used to perform manual tasks, but this was a very new phenomenon and still troublesome as somebody still had to maintain their emitters.
There is however a rather... anti-technology sentiment present among a significant group of civilians in the Federation. Particularly against replicators. Even then you'd still think they'd use a bit more technology than they currently do.
Its hilarious how Star Trek, being a product of the sixties that's entirely resistant to being updated, somehow skipped the entire sub-sapient robots/photonics step and went straight to full-blown morally protected sapients. We sell drones in toy stores but the Federation's barely heard of them.
I just need an automated worker-bot to do construction and till/plant/harvest the fields without it being smart enough to come play poker after it's done! Or a emergency medical hologram that's NOT heuristic.
Its hilarious how Star Trek, being a product of the sixties that's entirely resistant to being updated, somehow skipped the entire sub-sapient robots/photonics step and went straight to full-blown morally protected sapients. We sell drones in toy stores but the Federation's barely heard of them.
I just need an automated worker-bot to do construction and till/plant/harvest the fields without it being smart enough to come play poker after it's done! Or a emergency medical hologram that's NOT heuristic.
Its amusing, as I remember a couple episodes of Voyager where they were trying to create a backup EMH to fill in for the Doctor and they just couldn't do it. It is pretty crazy that it seems to be an all or nothing thing with them.
Only thing I can agree on however is that some colony worlds are depicted rather strangely, with literally all the labour being done manually. Using androids and holograms to perform those tasks would be a violation of UFP principles, as both are recognized as being lifeforms on at least a few occasions, but some more artificial help would surely be in order.
The protections that artificial life supposedly enjoys in the Federation are largely untested. When push comes to shove we see very often that the people within the Federation will treat AIs as nothing more than tools.
In TNG the two big moments for AI rights were when Data tried to refuse an order to be dismantled for study and when Starfleet demanded he turn over his newly created daughter. In both cases Starfleet stepped in and tried to argue that the AIs were tools and not people and therefore didn't have any rights. In the case of Data they skirted the issue and declared that he wasn't Starfleet's property, but avoided making any determination about whether he was alive or not. In the case of his daughter... well she died before they could push the issue very far.
The next big case for AI rights is throughout Voyager, with the EMH doctor. It is plain to see in the early seasons that he was viewed as nothing more than a sophisticated tool with a poor bedside manner. He wasn't respected or treated with much dignity. If it hadn't been for the necessity of Voyager's situation they would have never given him the chance to prove he was anything more than a medical tool. In the span of the show we see other EMH units being used as a labor force with no regard for anything remotely approaching civil rights.
So aside from how the inner circle of the TNG and VOY casts treated their AI friends, most of the Federation doesn't actually seem to acknowledge AIs as being life forms. Rather they are treated as amusing curiosities to be humored but not taken seriously.
Its hilarious how Star Trek, being a product of the sixties that's entirely resistant to being updated, somehow skipped the entire sub-sapient robots/photonics step and went straight to full-blown morally protected sapients. We sell drones in toy stores but the Federation's barely heard of them.
I just need an automated worker-bot to do construction and till/plant/harvest the fields without it being smart enough to come play poker after it's done! Or a emergency medical hologram that's NOT heuristic.
Its amusing, as I remember a couple episodes of Voyager where they were trying to create a backup EMH to fill in for the Doctor and they just couldn't do it. It is pretty crazy that it seems to be an all or nothing thing with them.
Only thing I can agree on however is that some colony worlds are depicted rather strangely, with literally all the labour being done manually. Using androids and holograms to perform those tasks would be a violation of UFP principles, as both are recognized as being lifeforms on at least a few occasions, but some more artificial help would surely be in order.
The protections that artificial life supposedly enjoys in the Federation are largely untested. When push comes to shove we see very often that the people within the Federation will treat AIs as nothing more than tools.
In TNG the two big moments for AI rights were when Data tried to refuse an order to be dismantled for study and when Starfleet demanded he turn over his newly created daughter. In both cases Starfleet stepped in and tried to argue that the AIs were tools and not people and therefore didn't have any rights. In the case of Data they skirted the issue and declared that he wasn't Starfleet's property, but avoided making any determination about whether he was alive or not. In the case of his daughter... well she died before they could push the issue very far.
The next big case for AI rights is throughout Voyager, with the EMH doctor. It is plain to see in the early seasons that he was viewed as nothing more than a sophisticated tool with a poor bedside manner. He wasn't respected or treated with much dignity. If it hadn't been for the necessity of Voyager's situation they would have never given him the chance to prove he was anything more than a medical tool. In the span of the show we see other EMH units being used as a labor force with no regard for anything remotely approaching civil rights.
So aside from how the inner circle of the TNG and VOY casts treated their AI friends, most of the Federation doesn't actually seem to acknowledge AIs as being life forms. Rather they are treated as amusing curiosities to be humored but not taken seriously.
With regards to The Doctor, he took on several new programming algorithms over the course of Voyager to assist him in performing his duties, as well as the experiences and knowledge gained as a result of long-term activation. In his case, it can be argued he gained sentience as his program evolved.
In terms of sentience, both The Doctor and Data struggle on one criterion: consciousness. Starfleet JAG ruled that Data had the freedom to choose and therefore wasn't property because he met 3/4 criteria: ability to learn, self-awareness and the ability to form relationships with others. It wasn't possible at the time to rule on consciousness, because then they were getting into the metaphysical.
Its hilarious how Star Trek, being a product of the sixties that's entirely resistant to being updated, somehow skipped the entire sub-sapient robots/photonics step and went straight to full-blown morally protected sapients. We sell drones in toy stores but the Federation's barely heard of them.
I just need an automated worker-bot to do construction and till/plant/harvest the fields without it being smart enough to come play poker after it's done! Or a emergency medical hologram that's NOT heuristic.
Its amusing, as I remember a couple episodes of Voyager where they were trying to create a backup EMH to fill in for the Doctor and they just couldn't do it. It is pretty crazy that it seems to be an all or nothing thing with them.
Only thing I can agree on however is that some colony worlds are depicted rather strangely, with literally all the labour being done manually. Using androids and holograms to perform those tasks would be a violation of UFP principles, as both are recognized as being lifeforms on at least a few occasions, but some more artificial help would surely be in order.
The protections that artificial life supposedly enjoys in the Federation are largely untested. When push comes to shove we see very often that the people within the Federation will treat AIs as nothing more than tools.
In TNG the two big moments for AI rights were when Data tried to refuse an order to be dismantled for study and when Starfleet demanded he turn over his newly created daughter. In both cases Starfleet stepped in and tried to argue that the AIs were tools and not people and therefore didn't have any rights. In the case of Data they skirted the issue and declared that he wasn't Starfleet's property, but avoided making any determination about whether he was alive or not. In the case of his daughter... well she died before they could push the issue very far.
The next big case for AI rights is throughout Voyager, with the EMH doctor. It is plain to see in the early seasons that he was viewed as nothing more than a sophisticated tool with a poor bedside manner. He wasn't respected or treated with much dignity. If it hadn't been for the necessity of Voyager's situation they would have never given him the chance to prove he was anything more than a medical tool. In the span of the show we see other EMH units being used as a labor force with no regard for anything remotely approaching civil rights.
So aside from how the inner circle of the TNG and VOY casts treated their AI friends, most of the Federation doesn't actually seem to acknowledge AIs as being life forms. Rather they are treated as amusing curiosities to be humored but not taken seriously.
With regards to The Doctor, he took on several new programming algorithms over the course of Voyager to assist him in performing his duties, as well as the experiences and knowledge gained as a result of long-term activation. In his case, it can be argued he gained sentience as his program evolved.
In terms of sentience, both The Doctor and Data struggle on one criterion: consciousness. Starfleet JAG ruled that Data had the freedom to choose and therefore wasn't property because he met 3/4 criteria: ability to learn, self-awareness and the ability to form relationships with others. It wasn't possible at the time to rule on consciousness, because then they were getting into the metaphysical.
The same can be said of the Doctor, the amount of character development on him was excellent. I'd class the Doctor as sentient on a few things.
1) He had hobbies
2) He developed his own personality based his experience and the people around him
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Don't forget the Exocomps. Those have also been recognized as life forms.
It is true that the majority of the characters were reactionaire dicks, Dr. Pulaski being still the prime example of it. But post Voyager at least Androids, Photonics and Exocomps should be considered sentient and sapient. Add to that the other artificial life forms they encountered.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Don't forget the Exocomps. Those have also been recognized as life forms.
It is true that the majority of the characters were reactionaire dicks, Dr. Pulaski being still the prime example of it. But post Voyager at least Androids, Photonics and Exocomps should be considered sentient and sapient. Add to that the other artificial life forms they encountered.
The main thing I'm taking from that is that 'dicks' no longer appears to be censored. Is it possible somebody has removed the twelve year old girls who programmed the censor filter?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
using the dominion war to estimate the fleet size isnt going to be very accurate.
remember most fleets in the war were mixed with fed kling and later romulan.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
The main thing I'm taking from that is that 'dicks' no longer appears to be censored. Is it possible somebody has removed the twelve year old girls who programmed the censor filter?
Do you imply twelve year old girls wouldn't cuss?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The main thing I'm taking from that is that 'dicks' no longer appears to be censored. Is it possible somebody has removed the twelve year old girls who programmed the censor filter?
Do you imply twelve year old girls wouldn't cuss?
Of course not. It's a well known fact.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
They never get into fights, they are good at school, and never get into fights as well.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
They're crewmen. I never said they didn't exist (in fact they out-number NCOs) but they're still insignificant compared to officers (mainly ensigns)
Not if they're not working for Starfleet. Guinan isn't working for Starfleet and she's not being paid for her service nor is she paying for Ten Forward. And was McCoy retired? I thought he was on extended leave.
Even if he had quit that rule was obviously overturned by TNG (and DS9/VOY) as every time an officer wanted to do something a little bit dodgy they'd put their combadge dramatically on a table and act as if Starfleet no longer had any power over them.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I would say a good number would be at least 10k to help cover those areas.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Very true. I think they get something to allow commerce with others that require some type of payment. But they try not to show that. As they don't want $ to be a driving force of the show.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Google knows all
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
There is obviously an economy, it just operates in a very different way from how our own system works. Specifics kept quiet for obvious reasons. It effectively wipes out internal trade for profit. If you need it, then someone will get it to you (unless you've got questionable motives for acquiring it). There is some sort of system for external dealings though, how the two systems operate is a mystery though.
You don't really need an internal economy with currency. Money and modern economy was invented to facilitate transactions because there was a different "opinion" on what something is worth in exchange for something else. If you exclude that notion, you don't need money. For instance, a lawyer may not accept a basket of apples as payment because he feels he deserves to be paid more. But if he's fine with the basket, he won't need money. Mere example.
I'd argue Starfleet normally has slightly less than 200 interstellar ships of classes we'd think of as T3 or higher. A number that makes the loss of 39 to the Borg the kind of major blow that's made out to be.
Still, how would you explain the vast fleets Starfleet drummed up during the Dominion War? With a lot of Nebula's, Galaxies, Defiants, Excelsiors and such.
Join the Deltas today!
Well in the early going of the war the bulk of those fleets was old Excelsior and Miranda class ships, we know from the TNG that Starfleet has sites where they keep decommissioned ships. If they keep the bulk of their old ships in storage then it means that during the build up to the Dominion War they could have been hastily refitting those older ships and sending them back out into service.
By the end of the war as ship production had ramped up and older ships were destroyed it would make sense that we would be seeing a larger proportion of newer ship classes in battle.
On a different note I've always found the portrayal of Federation worlds to be really hit and miss. For every industrial Earth-like world we see there seem to be a dozen agricultural worlds with populations only in the thousands and no particular industrial capacity. There is also the issue of how little civilian ship traffic we see in orbit of Federation worlds. Think for a moment and try to recall the last time you ever saw any merchant ships when they show Earth. Earth is the capital planet of the Federation, it should be a bustling beehive of traffic, yet it is always super sparse. At times it almost makes you wonder if the Federation prohibits space travel as part of their dogmatic Prime Directive enforcement.
From what I've seen of production interviews and in story dialogue we are supposed to believe that in the 24th century people perform back breaking hard labor on a day to day basis not for monetary gain, but rather because they genuinely enjoy tiresome repetitive labor.
It would honestly make much more sense if all the random laborers we see were instead robots, androids, and holograms. The alternative sounds more like a really effective indoctrination program to create a happy servant class.
Each of the member states of the Federation would have to have some sort of patrol organization. Think coast guard and police ships and emergency services and the like. And these national fleets would also have to have support and logistics vessels as well. Then there are the merchant fleets of each member state.
I imagine from time to time, a member state would 'contract out' part of its national fleet to Starfleet and the Federation. For disaster relief and such. These ships would far outnumber what we think of as 'true' Starfleet. Yet they would be part of Starfleet for a limited time with limited goals. So, "Starfleet" could be enormous one day and about a quarter of that size the next.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
The novels of the last ~20 years have been more consistent than anything the TV side of the house has ever produced.
IF you want hard canon only the answer is WE'LL NEVER, EVER KNOW.
Believe or not, but people can find happiness in a "basic" lifestyle like that, especially in the high tech future. But Star Trek depicts a general mentality that is so alien from ours it's hard to comprehend, but just as an example: After doing many years of studying and doing scientific work there are days (at the moment a lot in fact) where I would love nothing more than shoveling animal dung again (I was a zoo handler/keeper before I pursued a scientific education). Now Imagine a time where everything's taken care of by automation and people are left with educating themselves in science and arts. I would imagine the desire to just farm, garden or build something would be immense from time to time.
Only thing I can agree on however is that some colony worlds are depicted rather strangely, with literally all the labour being done manually. Using androids and holograms to perform those tasks would be a violation of UFP principles, as both are recognized as being lifeforms on at least a few occasions, but some more artificial help would surely be in order.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
You are absolutely right. There are several tasks, hard and "not glamorous" that can provide us a huge sense of achievement and make us feel phenomenal.
As was established in the show, even if androids were developed they couldn't be used as slave labour in case of sentience. In Voyager it is established that holograms have started to be used to perform manual tasks, but this was a very new phenomenon and still troublesome as somebody still had to maintain their emitters.
There is however a rather... anti-technology sentiment present among a significant group of civilians in the Federation. Particularly against replicators. Even then you'd still think they'd use a bit more technology than they currently do.
I just need an automated worker-bot to do construction and till/plant/harvest the fields without it being smart enough to come play poker after it's done! Or a emergency medical hologram that's NOT heuristic.
Its amusing, as I remember a couple episodes of Voyager where they were trying to create a backup EMH to fill in for the Doctor and they just couldn't do it. It is pretty crazy that it seems to be an all or nothing thing with them.
The protections that artificial life supposedly enjoys in the Federation are largely untested. When push comes to shove we see very often that the people within the Federation will treat AIs as nothing more than tools.
In TNG the two big moments for AI rights were when Data tried to refuse an order to be dismantled for study and when Starfleet demanded he turn over his newly created daughter. In both cases Starfleet stepped in and tried to argue that the AIs were tools and not people and therefore didn't have any rights. In the case of Data they skirted the issue and declared that he wasn't Starfleet's property, but avoided making any determination about whether he was alive or not. In the case of his daughter... well she died before they could push the issue very far.
The next big case for AI rights is throughout Voyager, with the EMH doctor. It is plain to see in the early seasons that he was viewed as nothing more than a sophisticated tool with a poor bedside manner. He wasn't respected or treated with much dignity. If it hadn't been for the necessity of Voyager's situation they would have never given him the chance to prove he was anything more than a medical tool. In the span of the show we see other EMH units being used as a labor force with no regard for anything remotely approaching civil rights.
So aside from how the inner circle of the TNG and VOY casts treated their AI friends, most of the Federation doesn't actually seem to acknowledge AIs as being life forms. Rather they are treated as amusing curiosities to be humored but not taken seriously.
With regards to The Doctor, he took on several new programming algorithms over the course of Voyager to assist him in performing his duties, as well as the experiences and knowledge gained as a result of long-term activation. In his case, it can be argued he gained sentience as his program evolved.
In terms of sentience, both The Doctor and Data struggle on one criterion: consciousness. Starfleet JAG ruled that Data had the freedom to choose and therefore wasn't property because he met 3/4 criteria: ability to learn, self-awareness and the ability to form relationships with others. It wasn't possible at the time to rule on consciousness, because then they were getting into the metaphysical.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The same can be said of the Doctor, the amount of character development on him was excellent. I'd class the Doctor as sentient on a few things.
1) He had hobbies
2) He developed his own personality based his experience and the people around him
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
It is true that the majority of the characters were reactionaire dicks, Dr. Pulaski being still the prime example of it. But post Voyager at least Androids, Photonics and Exocomps should be considered sentient and sapient. Add to that the other artificial life forms they encountered.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
The main thing I'm taking from that is that 'dicks' no longer appears to be censored. Is it possible somebody has removed the twelve year old girls who programmed the censor filter?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
remember most fleets in the war were mixed with fed kling and later romulan.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
Do you imply twelve year old girls wouldn't cuss?
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Of course not. It's a well known fact.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
He. Hehehehe. Hehheheheheehehhehe. Huahuhauhuahuaaa - *squeals in laughter* Uek uek uek...
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
They never get into fights, they are good at school, and never get into fights as well.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!