I have KDF characters and I've had the same issue with First City that has been mentioned (too dark and/or confuzzling). Also, since not may others play the Fleet I am in is largely unloved - I can't even get responses when asking in game about a possible Alliance. It seems to me that the Feds "get all the cool stuff" - free Uniform bits and bobs, more ship choices, etc. Cryptic/PW say they don't do much with them because the metrics prove people don't play them that much/often---well, flip side is this :*IF* you showed some love and gave KDF (and Rommies) the same "love" you give the Feds -> Better/more ship choices and the equivalent of the "free" Uniform stuff, *MAYBE* folks WOULD play them. It's depressing to sit on a KDF toon waiting to not be soloing or knowing you didn't get a 'cool gift' when the Feds did....
I get that when STO first came out the idea was for Faction PvP - why not drop that, since it doesn't seem to be the KDF "draw" it was meant to be (and was at the start)? Just let PvP be "practice" for ship Captains and let anyone PvP anyone in certain areas/scenerios (should they so choose).
And supposed KDF "supporters" crying there aren't enough restrictions. Apparently in their mind the best way to encourage the company to add content they want is to prevent 70% of the playerbase from ever buying it.
Unite the factions.
Insert appropriate selection of fallacy here
There is a difference between ability to purchase something and desire to do so.
Every player of STO has, always, been able at one point or another (Required an L25 Fed in the "old days" pre-LoR, from day 1 post-LoR) been able to "roll up" a KDF oriented character and play as such. Therefore, "every player" of STO is able to "purchase" KDF-themed content.
However, as illustrated by the fact that as of the last infographic, only 16% of the ever built characters in game are KDF leads us to another "confusion / potential fallacy" - that since only 16% of the characters are KDF, only 16% of the players of the game choose KDF.
Take me, for instance. I have 4 Fed Scis (my Original toon, my "main", a Delta, and a Temp), 2 Fed Tacs, and a Fed Engie, counterbalancing 2 KDF Scis (Orion & Gorn Delta), Tac and Engie. Sadly, my Rom force is even smaller, only a Tac/Sci/Eng(Delta) all Fed-aligned.
If my math is sorta on track, I'm currently running ~30% "KDF aligned" toons on my account, greater than the 16% average. However, how many accounts exist with a plethora of Feds and one "token" KDF (and a second "token" Rom) toon to check out the text, grab the latest giveaway, and otherwise rot on the bottom of the character selection page?
And for me, as illustrated by the fact that of my 14 characters half of them are "science", I'm a fan of good solid "science" gameplay - currently extremely lacking on KDF-side. I bought the whole Dyson pack because I wanted at least something with CMDR Sci, more than a 2-slot Token Tactical Presence, and worked for KDF & Rommie - neat how I got the 3 Feddie ships "free" with the bundle purchase, right? Did that purchase "TRIBBLE up" the "intent" behind my thought process to the Devs some, I may never know...
But back on track - since I currently own the entirety of the "KDF's" "C-store options with Cmdr Sci" (Read: Varanus & Dyson set - the new cross-faction ship sorta counts but then again could wind up furthering the Dev thought of "he bought it for his 4 Fed Scis, not his KDFs" and does go a little more engineering over tactical for my tastes), there's not really anything I desire from the KDF section of the C-store that'll make me part with money and/or someone else's money via Dilithium Grinding...
And as to the thought process of "more restrictions to drive KDF use" - think of this: The "true" min-maxxer cares not what "faction" they wear, or how the "looks" of the stuffs compares in the space Barbie race, they only care about "winning" the DPS race. If the KDF were to become the race that tied, or slightly beats, the Republic's Scimitar family in the DPS race - there'd be an "influx" of KDF players.
If the "FOTM" for casuals was KDF-exclusive, they, too, might roll or dredge up that "neglected" KDF and run a redside toon to see how it stacks up.
Both of which increase sales metrics, which might finally break the catch-22 of "nobody buys KDF, so why design KDF - and because there's really nothing KDF worth buying, nobody buys KDF", which is the "obvious" goal of this thread...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
As a side note, anyone think it's weird how the Fed Klingon War focuses on B'Vat in the Fed storyline, but simply doesn't in the KDF storyline with the exception of two out of date episodes.
I already main a KDF character. I have it on hiatus at the moment. Had to go back to one of my old fed character cause all the story arc changes, screwed up my accolades. Once it's caught up. I'll be back on my KDF char.
As a side note, anyone think it's weird how the Fed Klingon War focuses on B'Vat in the Fed storyline, but simply doesn't in the KDF storyline with the exception of two out of date episodes.
I think that B'Vat is less important than he seems at first.
And supposed KDF "supporters" crying there aren't enough restrictions. Apparently in their mind the best way to encourage the company to add content they want is to prevent 70% of the playerbase from ever buying it.
Unite the factions.
Insert appropriate selection of fallacy here
There is a difference between ability to purchase something and desire to do so.
Every player of STO has, always, been able at one point or another (Required an L25 Fed in the "old days" pre-LoR, from day 1 post-LoR) been able to "roll up" a KDF oriented character and play as such. Therefore, "every player" of STO is able to "purchase" KDF-themed content.
However, as illustrated by the fact that as of the last infographic, only 16% of the ever built characters in game are KDF leads us to another "confusion / potential fallacy" - that since only 16% of the characters are KDF, only 16% of the players of the game choose KDF.
Take me, for instance. I have 4 Fed Scis (my Original toon, my "main", a Delta, and a Temp), 2 Fed Tacs, and a Fed Engie, counterbalancing 2 KDF Scis (Orion & Gorn Delta), Tac and Engie. Sadly, my Rom force is even smaller, only a Tac/Sci/Eng(Delta) all Fed-aligned.
If my math is sorta on track, I'm currently running ~30% "KDF aligned" toons on my account, greater than the 16% average. However, how many accounts exist with a plethora of Feds and one "token" KDF (and a second "token" Rom) toon to check out the text, grab the latest giveaway, and otherwise rot on the bottom of the character selection page?
And for me, as illustrated by the fact that of my 14 characters half of them are "science", I'm a fan of good solid "science" gameplay - currently extremely lacking on KDF-side. I bought the whole Dyson pack because I wanted at least something with CMDR Sci, more than a 2-slot Token Tactical Presence, and worked for KDF & Rommie - neat how I got the 3 Feddie ships "free" with the bundle purchase, right? Did that purchase "**** up" the "intent" behind my thought process to the Devs some, I may never know...
But back on track - since I currently own the entirety of the "KDF's" "C-store options with Cmdr Sci" (Read: Varanus & Dyson set - the new cross-faction ship sorta counts but then again could wind up furthering the Dev thought of "he bought it for his 4 Fed Scis, not his KDFs" and does go a little more engineering over tactical for my tastes), there's not really anything I desire from the KDF section of the C-store that'll make me part with money and/or someone else's money via Dilithium Grinding...
And as to the thought process of "more restrictions to drive KDF use" - think of this: The "true" min-maxxer cares not what "faction" they wear, or how the "looks" of the stuffs compares in the space Barbie race, they only care about "winning" the DPS race. If the KDF were to become the race that tied, or slightly beats, the Republic's Scimitar family in the DPS race - there'd be an "influx" of KDF players.
If the "FOTM" for casuals was KDF-exclusive, they, too, might roll or dredge up that "neglected" KDF and run a redside toon to see how it stacks up.
Both of which increase sales metrics, which might finally break the catch-22 of "nobody buys KDF, so why design KDF - and because there's really nothing KDF worth buying, nobody buys KDF", which is the "obvious" goal of this thread...
Minmaxers are a minority. Faction purists are a minority. People with dozens of toons they play and spend on equally are a minority. Most players, especially casuals, will focus on one toon, because people don't have infinite time or money.
And you can pretend the 70% Fed characters doesn't mean 70% players main a Fed. Whatever floats your boat. Personally I'm thinking the 15% KDF is the more likely number to contain bloat, seeing as KDF is the official contraband-farming faction (interesting to see what happens to that now that contraband is nerfed). That's speculation on our part. But Cryptic knows. I can assure you they have stats on play-time, purchases, etc broken down by faction. If they say creating things KDF is not profitable, they mean it.
The majority of players are not going to look at a KDF-exclusive ship "that tied, or slightly beats, the Republic's Scimitar family in the DPS race" and rush to start with a KDF toon just to get a chance to buy it, any more than they rush to switch to a Romulan when they see the Scimitar. Instead they say "cool, but I'm not allowed that" and go buy something they can just buy with a click instead (i.e. something Fed or cross-faction).
"Nobody" buys KDF, because buying KDF is locked behind onerous restrictions. Sure, all players have have the nominal ability to buy thigs KDF, but not on the character(s) they want to buy things on.
As a side note, anyone think it's weird how the Fed Klingon War focuses on B'Vat in the Fed storyline, but simply doesn't in the KDF storyline with the exception of two out of date episodes.
Not really. Fairly simple "matter of perspective" issue. To wit:
J'mpok declared war on the Feddies, then proceeded to launch all of no ships at major (or even minor) Federation installations. It was all political bluster and gave them some extra "teeth" if the Feddies try to stage even a "covert" maneuver to help the Gorn.
Meanwhile, B'Vat, ever the Klingon opportunist (who was seemingly being propped up by the baddie of the hour, wasn't both the Iconians and Na'kuhl dropping info on B'Vat to help him with his "instigations"?) was "instigating" all the "prepping for an actual hard war" that Heroic Lt. (or temporal agent Lt.) Blank winds up stumbling into and "solving"...
During all this, Second Officer Someone of the little BOP Something winds up getting a crash-course of KDF "honor" (and a command) over one certain Sec. 31 agent before getting snared in a couple of the aforementioned "shoot a round over the Federation's bow" operations at which point he starts stumbling into B'Vat's schemes and, obviously, takes steps to "fix the Empire's Honor before the 'dirty Fedlings' do it for them"...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
"Nobody" buys KDF, because buying KDF is locked behind onerous restrictions. Sure, all players have have the nominal ability to buy thigs KDF, but not on the character(s) they want to buy things on.
Hence the original question. What will it take? My KDF is there because he's my only Delta guy. So I play him to get the Delta rewards. I figured at the time, it'd be perfect to create a Klingon, because every character reaps the rewards. And every MMO is a risk/reward system. There's no point to making a Klingon if there is nothing to reap from it aside from "just having one."
This is why there needs to be a brainstorming session. What will it take? If we could reward your other alts for the process of making/leveling a KDF alt, what would you want? And be reasonable.
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If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
I would say an inclusion and quality pass. Meaning those temporal ships they put out for 23c and fed only that can skin to 23c. They did some new Klingon and Romulan 23c skins. Put down a rom and kdf 30th century hull and let them use the d5 and Kacha (I think that is the name) skins. Less work than full on stuff but it makes them feel welcome. And a bit more flavor spin based on what you are playing. A Klingon warrior arrives to a system in a battlecruiser shouldn't be spoken to exactly the same as a federation captain. And his responses should be similarly more Klingon. If the missions need to be shared let them feel slightly different when played by another faction keeps that faction breathing.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
As a side note, anyone think it's weird how the Fed Klingon War focuses on B'Vat in the Fed storyline, but simply doesn't in the KDF storyline with the exception of two out of date episodes.
Not really. Fairly simple "matter of perspective" issue. To wit:
J'mpok declared war on the Feddies, then proceeded to launch all of no ships at major (or even minor) Federation installations. It was all political bluster and gave them some extra "teeth" if the Feddies try to stage even a "covert" maneuver to help the Gorn.
Meanwhile, B'Vat, ever the Klingon opportunist (who was seemingly being propped up by the baddie of the hour, wasn't both the Iconians and Na'kuhl dropping info on B'Vat to help him with his "instigations"?) was "instigating" all the "prepping for an actual hard war" that Heroic Lt. (or temporal agent Lt.) Blank winds up stumbling into and "solving"...
During all this, Second Officer Someone of the little BOP Something winds up getting a crash-course of KDF "honor" (and a command) over one certain Sec. 31 agent before getting snared in a couple of the aforementioned "shoot a round over the Federation's bow" operations at which point he starts stumbling into B'Vat's schemes and, obviously, takes steps to "fix the Empire's Honor before the 'dirty Fedlings' do it for them"...
BTW... the mission where you attack Utopia Planetia is still in the game....
I've rolled multiple KDF/Aligned Roms so i do actively play the KDF side. However in terms of development compared to the Fed side it has been neglected. And when you have neglected/under developed content then people are not going to play it. This game was launched as Star Trek Online, the premise was it was a Star Trek game. All factions should get equal development,
"Nobody" buys KDF, because buying KDF is locked behind onerous restrictions. Sure, all players have have the nominal ability to buy thigs KDF, but not on the character(s) they want to buy things on.
Hence the original question. What will it take? My KDF is there because he's my only Delta guy. So I play him to get the Delta rewards. I figured at the time, it'd be perfect to create a Klingon, because every character reaps the rewards. And every MMO is a risk/reward system. There's no point to making a Klingon if there is nothing to reap from it aside from "just having one."
This is why there needs to be a brainstorming session. What will it take? If we could reward your other alts for the process of making/leveling a KDF alt, what would you want? And be reasonable.
Every new alt they've "rewarded" me for making has made me more convinced I want to abandon alts completely. I rarely even log in to refine dil on all of them anymore, much less to actually play the game. I'm doing the temporal recruit thing to get the rewards for my main and then it's cold storage with that one too.
I have neither the time nor the desire to play 5 toons. I have the one toon I want to play and if they don't see fit to sell KDF ships to that toon, then I'm just not going to buy KDF ships.
There's nothing they could reasonably make KDF-exclusive that would get me to switch my main.
While the Feds will always remain my first love, the ratio of Fed-KDF toons was 5:4 before AoY, now it's 6:4.
One of the bonus points for KDF toons is that they have many, many more opportunities to earn contraband through DOFF assignments. Of course, now that they've increased the mission duration you can't turn it over as fast. Still, if it's their way of reducing the amount of dil ore you can earn I can see how it can be a good thing.
Less social is a overstatement. People don't even ask if you want to be in their fleet. They just spam you with invites at random. Not really a community. (By the way I keep zone chat disabled, it's not a good place to meet anyone and is full of toxic trolls)
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
It's okay to have a main, it's even okay to have one that's a fed. Nobody's telling you to give up what you enjoy and do something you don't like. (the inverse, however, is not so-you're telling other people exactly that thing with your approach on this.)
Except I'm not. I'm saying we should have unrestricted freeform characters, with the factions as origin stories. Basically, the same what we have now, except no "that's not available for your faction" messages when trying to buy stuff. So that everyone can play the way they want.
The topic is really "How do we stop the decline in KDF players". There are fewer of them today, than there were four years ago. Demonstrated...before AoY was even announced. The faction isn't just not-growing-as-fast, it's getting smaller.
and most of those aren't just switching back to their "Federation Mains". a great many of them are Leaving the Game.
and not being replaced.
Undoubtedly getting even smaller now that contraband farming got nerfed.
I know you don't think that's a problem (You've made that amply clear), but it is-just like with PvP's population decline, because you're losing swathes of community, which impacts the Dil traders, the exchange sellers, even fleets (Including fed fleets over the longer term.)
Look at the game not in terms of your having a sandwich and therefore, anyone who says they're hungry is a whiner, but instead in terms of an ecology-an environment of nature (only in this natural environment, you've got an actual intelligence directing it that can be contacted and occasionally communicates back.)
This environment has become hyperspecialized to serve a single 'species' at the expense of all others. One impact of that, is that the intelligence controlling it, has to come up with a spiral of powercreep to keep that species alive-that's you. That's Federation Players, it's why each "Specialization" has to be more powerful than the last, it's why each expansion since Legacy of Romulus has cost more to implement, taken more time, and delivered less new content.
They've been cannibalizing the lower-population groups to supply you with new shineys to take your money, and at this point, there's nothing left to cannibalize.
Well, okay, they could loot Singularity Powers from Romulan to Fed. That's still one thing that hasn't been given over directly yet.
Not a single species. A single market. The largest market in the game. Where the profit is.
What the KDF really needs is to be in the single market. Instead of 70%/15%/15%, there should be just one 100% market. No restrictions. Because I'm sure the KDF ships would sell better if they were available for everyone. And if they sold better, Cryptic would make more of them.
And maybe more players would even pick the KDF origin if it didn't forever condemn the character into being on the receiving end of "not available for your faction." Yeah, sure the purists scream bloody murder at the mere option of buying a Fed ship, but like I said they're a minority.
This is exactly why I've been saying people misguidedly cry after more restrictions. Because they desperately cling to that foolish notion that the Klingon experience must be an all-or-nothing deal, even as it's being run to the ground. That it somehow diminishes their game if "the Feds" get the same things they do.
When the truth is the exact opposite.
but everything they've done thus far, has shifted more and more to a narrower and narrower focus. That focus being single player Fed player PvE only, with the basic impacts as follows:
Community in ALL the factions is less of a 'thing' than it was even in 2012 when we had a hell of a lot fewer players and Cryptic had trouble keeping the lights on.
Social zones are pretty much confined to gold-sellers and Gorn jokes.
People barely talk to each other at all.
The game as a whole is less varied and less social, and the communities that helped new guys in the game? they've departed which is why we get threads like "The Terran ships are Too OP."
It's also why everything has become a time gate and the devs live on a quarterly update to pump numbers instead of having the steady stream of play this game USED TO HAVE. (seriously, Saturday at prime time now, looks like Wednesday 11PM PST did four years ago. Not just for PvP, but for everything)
and it's a combination of incentives, and ennui-it's boring to re-grind groundhog-day-style just to get a shiny to regrind a slight bit faster-not for everyone, but for enough people that variation of the diet might prove beneficial.
Well, none of that's a faction issue, is it? For better or for worse all the factions have the same content, origin stories notwithstanding. And the same lame zone chat. The only difference, at endgame, is what you're allowed to buy.
I know, none of that applies to YOUR situation, Warpangel, but you're not everyone.
of course, you ARE the Targeted Demographic, the beneficiary of the beforementioned hyperspecialized focus on "The Majority" (a definition that's been narrowing every year for a while now.)
Actually, I main a Romulan.
It's just unlike the purists, I recognize that there is a majority and there will always be a majority, but the minorities are an artificial construct created by intentional restrictions. And that it would be in everyone's best interests to dismantle those restrictions.
I just started a KDF character (Gorn actually) recently simply because I hadn't yet and wanted to see what it was like. I'm actually enjoying their storyline quite a bit so far (up to the Fek'lr stuff now).
One thing that might help bring more players over to the KDF side (or even ROM faction) would be to add a KDF version of the new AoY stuff, but that might be a stretch.
The KDF were created for PvP and ships that they couldn't give the Feds because Fed's weren't suppose to get them.
So they abandon PvP and give the Feds ships they don't need or require, now there's no reason for the KDF to exist.
Then they do LoR and provide a new line of ships that can be used by a Fed-aligned character who will get treated exactly like a Fed, most these new ships are fragile yet overpowered and Fed-only players have no idea how to use them so they get panned as 'useless' and no-one buys them, or has no-one else noticed that all the latest Romulan ships are getting tougher and bigger?
Battle-cruisers and Carriers should be KDF only, Singularity powers are rightly Romulan warbird only, Feds get to keep the masses of cruisers backed up with dozens of science ships and a handful of escorts / escort-carriers.
As it is the Feds have almost as many Battle-cruisers as the KDF does and most of the KDF ones aren't even t5, the Fed ones start at t5.
They and the Romulans (through a lockbox) both get a t6 Carrier when neither should get any. Meanwhile the KDF still haven't got any t6 Carriers.
I do not want access to Romulan or Federation ships for any of my KDF characters, likewise none of my Romulan or Federation characters require, want or need any KDF ships, so the idea that more ships would sell if you removed the limit on who could buy them both doesn't hold or make sense and should be left for IF the game survives to or skips ahead to being set in the 31st century.
Less social is a overstatement. People don't even ask if you want to be in their fleet. They just spam you with invites at random. Not really a community. (By the way I keep zone chat disabled, it's not a good place to meet anyone and is full of toxic trolls)
the same can be said for all factions... no matter which character i play, fed/rom or dkf, im bombarded with fleet invites. so i mainly join one just to keep them away and earn some FC's for fleet ships.
I already play KDF and got my wife to roll a couple too (She loves her AlienGen Drow and her Nozzie and worked up some awesome backstories for them being in the KDF). I also have Feds and Roms/Remans.
Something I'd like to see is some of the little things you see with certain fed species (eg you can nerve pinch that scientist on Drozanna in the past instead of talking to her for ages to get to the planck regulator thingy). I'd like my Orion girl to flirt her way out of danger instead of using diplomacy. I'd like my Lethean to telepathically knock someone out to get past them instead of talking all nicey-nicey. I'd like my Gorn to lisp menacingly and scare someone out of my way. I'd also like to see my Bajoran have the option to say "Trust in the Prophets", my Tellarite to argue and insult his way to getting what he wants and for each race to have some "flavour" dialogue once in a while.
We have eng/tac/sci options in missions already, so why not race options?
Maybe an accolade for flirting your way through ten times could be "sweet-tart", arguing 10 times could be "all bluster" and nerve pinching could be "got out of a pinch"?
I can't see us getting more ships/missions/more of anything that isn't cross-faction so this way, since they'll be doing it for everyone, we'll get some love too.
"...we are far more united and have far more in common with each other than the things that divide us.”
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
The beauty of these discussions, here is that there is no way in hell any developer will ever read them (well, aside from Tacofangs, I swear the man must be a closet ****).
Why is that a beautiful thing? because the discussion can be held freely, without being concerned that a Dev might read the thread and lose their coolant in an explosion.
HERE, there is zero danger that a staffer (other than poor, overworked Trendy) is going to have to muck through our walls of text, or have their world-view challenged in ways that make them uncomfortable, or see something that might alarm them-they don't come into threads like this, don't read them, and therefore we are safe to discuss what-might-bes and what-might-have-beens while acknowledging a realistic view of what-will-be.
and what-will-be?
WELL... per Z.Rex's interview with P1 last month, the console release will include KDF (a mistake) and PvP (a bigger mistake).
Why do I say those are mistakes?
1. KDF is abandoned content, it's actively being dismantled and parted out to provide new shineys to the Federation and has been for years now. There is, and will be, no budget for KDF in the present or future. There is no interest in 'saving' the faction at Cryptic. We aren't Profitable. Get it through your head, the negative population growth? it's a feature on that end. Recently, a Ship Artist over on Reddit started a thread about finding the 'soul' of Klingon ships, notably, he treated "Caveman with a Napoleon Complex" as a good baseline assumption.
166 posts on the Reddit thread (so far) disabused him of that notion in varying shades of lecture, but the basic idea is obviously something that was part of his core assumptions-which had to come from his working environment, since it could NOT have come from watching 7 movies, 3 television series, reading the canonized comic books put out to promote those movies or the DC comics series from the seventies.
2. PvP is, at present, virtually unplayable, and largely inaccessible to new players, and unplayable for many older players who don't grind PvE 40 hours a week in addition to spending hundreds in real money to get the latest OP shineys. Balance is nonexistent, that goes from Powers-balancing, to Force-balancing, to faction-balancing. not there at any stage. the only surviving vestige in the game are some very-long-established chat channels that won't exist on console, where people stage 'gentlemanly duels' with rules and restrictions mutually agreed beforehand in chat-on those channels.
basically it's dead, there is no matchmaking system, no attempt at structuring balanced fights, and no incentive system to encourage balanced fights.
Since the console releases ARE going to be separate from PC version, one would think they'd take the opportunity given to slim down the game and eliminate everything they've got that is a total and utter failure. (which would be: Multiple Factions, and PvP. Cryptic has failed on both counts...catastrophically.)
Both of those started off with some good ideas and even good groundwork-but six years after being begun, Cryptic has utterly failed to capitalize-and will, I predict, continue to do so, which kinda blows my mind a little bit.
Here's why:
Klingons show up at Sci-fi, Anime, Comic book, and Star Trek Conventions like clockwork. There's always a couple there, even if there's nobody else with a Trek themed getup, there are Klingons-I even saw some in the background at a Star Wars convention. Klingon stuff costs more than Federation stuff. The costumes are more expensive to make, you have to buy the latex ridges and know how to apply them, or you have to make them yourself. Leather and rubber are HOT and UNCOMFORTABLE to wear.
Klingon Weapons show up at gun and knife shows, every mall "knife store" I've ever SEEN has a couple Bat'leths and maybe a Dagger or two. SOG Knives will even sell you one made in some foreign sweatshop for the price of a good dive knife.
This wouldn't happen if they couldn't sell it at a profit.
Trek Fans spend money-this game's continued existence is proof of that, but among Trekkies/Trekkers, the guys who spend like the drunken sailor on a Bangkok pass are KLINGON fans.
Now, keeping in mind that game avatars are pixels, stored on as electrons in a file. NOT steel you hae to load into the back of the truck to go to the next SCA Meet, or Convention, or Gun Show, but pixels. Not only that, but once you make it, assuming you don't **** up somewhere (Kar'fi), you don't have to make it again. The cost is sunk on creation, and your production rate is 'as fast as I can sell it'.
HOW IN ****'S NAME can you not make a profit?
I don't have the answer-but somehow, Cryptic has found a way to fail to make a profit off of people who will spend money they shouldn't on stuff with no practical value in the real world.
HOW do you get the most rabid of Star Trek fans, to NOT buy Star Trek stuff? it blows my mind, it really does.
Secondly, how do you excuse it when you fail at this, and keep your dignity?
The problem with this example is a false equivelancy between cosplay and metalworking... and running a game development studio. Similarly, while farming and running a restaurant has many things in common (such as the preparation and distribution of food), the amount of technical skill, manpower requirements, and a multitude of other things are so drastically different that it's impossible to compare the two jobs as being equivelant in form and function.
For starters, the people at conventions and whatnot who sell Klingon-themed costumes and prosthetics and weapons usually only do this as a side-job, to make some extra money for a hobby or tradeskill they have. It may only be one or two people involved, as opposed to a game studio like Cryptic which employs way more than that, and that they don't do this as a hobby.
This isn't to say that the people at conventions aren't as skilled as game developers, but it is a different technical skill, and the profit margins for them are much, much lower than that of a game studio which is expected to compete in a very cut-throat market.
The people who sit at booths in conventions selling their wares are not exactly rolling in millions of dollars, nor do they answer to wealthy stockholders. Cryptic, on the other hand does.
On the surface, it seems easy to think that because Cryptic creates pixels that it should be easy for them to turn a profit compared to somebody who creates tangible Klingon-related paraphenalia with their own two hands and can sell it to people. But when the amount of money involved is tallied up, it just is not comparable to those kinds of entrepreneurs.
The beauty of these discussions, here is that there is no way in hell any developer will ever read them (well, aside from Tacofangs, I swear the man must be a closet ****).
Why is that a beautiful thing? because the discussion can be held freely, without being concerned that a Dev might read the thread and lose their coolant in an explosion.
HERE, there is zero danger that a staffer (other than poor, overworked Trendy) is going to have to muck through our walls of text, or have their world-view challenged in ways that make them uncomfortable, or see something that might alarm them-they don't come into threads like this, don't read them, and therefore we are safe to discuss what-might-bes and what-might-have-beens while acknowledging a realistic view of what-will-be.
and what-will-be?
WELL... per Z.Rex's interview with P1 last month, the console release will include KDF (a mistake) and PvP (a bigger mistake).
Why do I say those are mistakes?
1. KDF is abandoned content, it's actively being dismantled and parted out to provide new shineys to the Federation and has been for years now. There is, and will be, no budget for KDF in the present or future. There is no interest in 'saving' the faction at Cryptic. We aren't Profitable. Get it through your head, the negative population growth? it's a feature on that end. Recently, a Ship Artist over on Reddit started a thread about finding the 'soul' of Klingon ships, notably, he treated "Caveman with a Napoleon Complex" as a good baseline assumption.
166 posts on the Reddit thread (so far) disabused him of that notion in varying shades of lecture, but the basic idea is obviously something that was part of his core assumptions-which had to come from his working environment, since it could NOT have come from watching 7 movies, 3 television series, reading the canonized comic books put out to promote those movies or the DC comics series from the seventies.
2. PvP is, at present, virtually unplayable, and largely inaccessible to new players, and unplayable for many older players who don't grind PvE 40 hours a week in addition to spending hundreds in real money to get the latest OP shineys. Balance is nonexistent, that goes from Powers-balancing, to Force-balancing, to faction-balancing. not there at any stage. the only surviving vestige in the game are some very-long-established chat channels that won't exist on console, where people stage 'gentlemanly duels' with rules and restrictions mutually agreed beforehand in chat-on those channels.
basically it's dead, there is no matchmaking system, no attempt at structuring balanced fights, and no incentive system to encourage balanced fights.
Since the console releases ARE going to be separate from PC version, one would think they'd take the opportunity given to slim down the game and eliminate everything they've got that is a total and utter failure. (which would be: Multiple Factions, and PvP. Cryptic has failed on both counts...catastrophically.)
Both of those started off with some good ideas and even good groundwork-but six years after being begun, Cryptic has utterly failed to capitalize-and will, I predict, continue to do so, which kinda blows my mind a little bit.
Here's why:
Klingons show up at Sci-fi, Anime, Comic book, and Star Trek Conventions like clockwork. There's always a couple there, even if there's nobody else with a Trek themed getup, there are Klingons-I even saw some in the background at a Star Wars convention. Klingon stuff costs more than Federation stuff. The costumes are more expensive to make, you have to buy the latex ridges and know how to apply them, or you have to make them yourself. Leather and rubber are HOT and UNCOMFORTABLE to wear.
Klingon Weapons show up at gun and knife shows, every mall "knife store" I've ever SEEN has a couple Bat'leths and maybe a Dagger or two. SOG Knives will even sell you one made in some foreign sweatshop for the price of a good dive knife.
This wouldn't happen if they couldn't sell it at a profit.
Trek Fans spend money-this game's continued existence is proof of that, but among Trekkies/Trekkers, the guys who spend like the drunken sailor on a Bangkok pass are KLINGON fans.
Now, keeping in mind that game avatars are pixels, stored on as electrons in a file. NOT steel you hae to load into the back of the truck to go to the next SCA Meet, or Convention, or Gun Show, but pixels. Not only that, but once you make it, assuming you don't **** up somewhere (Kar'fi), you don't have to make it again. The cost is sunk on creation, and your production rate is 'as fast as I can sell it'.
HOW IN ****'S NAME can you not make a profit?
I don't have the answer-but somehow, Cryptic has found a way to fail to make a profit off of people who will spend money they shouldn't on stuff with no practical value in the real world.
HOW do you get the most rabid of Star Trek fans, to NOT buy Star Trek stuff? it blows my mind, it really does.
Secondly, how do you excuse it when you fail at this, and keep your dignity?
It's funny, all of this will be hand-waved with a "But the devs say it doesn't sell.." nonsense, completely missing the point. It's mostly the same people who pointed fingers at other players calling them "liars," or "cheaters," or the old standby, "exploiters" because "Geko said metrics" during the Japori debacle. When he came out and said he was mistaken, none of those posters said anything about the insults and accusations, they just moved along- to parrot the devs about whatever else was being discussed.
The simple thing to say is "it doesn't sell." It's easy, that's what the devs say. It takes no thought whatsoever to just carbon copy that, and make assumptions about how many people would buy KDF stuff, if it wasn't such a massive disincentive. "Metrics" don't say how many people got told in Zone that "LOLKDF." Or that the Kor was such a massive clusterf*** that people didn't buy it because they botched it so badly. Or that STO is known for flagrantly ignoring the KDF faction...because Google. Or any number of other reasons that are so ridiculous it seems that it's purposeful, if it actually isn't.
I had someone ask me about STO not too long ago. The first thing he said was "Can you play a Klingon?" Guess who would rather play something else? I'm not sure how that shows up in any "metrics."
I can't say for sure that they're trying to keep people from playing non-FED, because I'm neither a mind reader nor am I privy to their production meeting info. But it looks like they are, and that's pretty atrocious from a game company marketing their game as "multifaction."
Comments
I get that when STO first came out the idea was for Faction PvP - why not drop that, since it doesn't seem to be the KDF "draw" it was meant to be (and was at the start)? Just let PvP be "practice" for ship Captains and let anyone PvP anyone in certain areas/scenerios (should they so choose).
Just my 2 EC
Insert appropriate selection of fallacy here
There is a difference between ability to purchase something and desire to do so.
Every player of STO has, always, been able at one point or another (Required an L25 Fed in the "old days" pre-LoR, from day 1 post-LoR) been able to "roll up" a KDF oriented character and play as such. Therefore, "every player" of STO is able to "purchase" KDF-themed content.
However, as illustrated by the fact that as of the last infographic, only 16% of the ever built characters in game are KDF leads us to another "confusion / potential fallacy" - that since only 16% of the characters are KDF, only 16% of the players of the game choose KDF.
Take me, for instance. I have 4 Fed Scis (my Original toon, my "main", a Delta, and a Temp), 2 Fed Tacs, and a Fed Engie, counterbalancing 2 KDF Scis (Orion & Gorn Delta), Tac and Engie. Sadly, my Rom force is even smaller, only a Tac/Sci/Eng(Delta) all Fed-aligned.
If my math is sorta on track, I'm currently running ~30% "KDF aligned" toons on my account, greater than the 16% average. However, how many accounts exist with a plethora of Feds and one "token" KDF (and a second "token" Rom) toon to check out the text, grab the latest giveaway, and otherwise rot on the bottom of the character selection page?
And for me, as illustrated by the fact that of my 14 characters half of them are "science", I'm a fan of good solid "science" gameplay - currently extremely lacking on KDF-side. I bought the whole Dyson pack because I wanted at least something with CMDR Sci, more than a 2-slot Token Tactical Presence, and worked for KDF & Rommie - neat how I got the 3 Feddie ships "free" with the bundle purchase, right? Did that purchase "TRIBBLE up" the "intent" behind my thought process to the Devs some, I may never know...
But back on track - since I currently own the entirety of the "KDF's" "C-store options with Cmdr Sci" (Read: Varanus & Dyson set - the new cross-faction ship sorta counts but then again could wind up furthering the Dev thought of "he bought it for his 4 Fed Scis, not his KDFs" and does go a little more engineering over tactical for my tastes), there's not really anything I desire from the KDF section of the C-store that'll make me part with money and/or someone else's money via Dilithium Grinding...
And as to the thought process of "more restrictions to drive KDF use" - think of this: The "true" min-maxxer cares not what "faction" they wear, or how the "looks" of the stuffs compares in the space Barbie race, they only care about "winning" the DPS race. If the KDF were to become the race that tied, or slightly beats, the Republic's Scimitar family in the DPS race - there'd be an "influx" of KDF players.
If the "FOTM" for casuals was KDF-exclusive, they, too, might roll or dredge up that "neglected" KDF and run a redside toon to see how it stacks up.
Both of which increase sales metrics, which might finally break the catch-22 of "nobody buys KDF, so why design KDF - and because there's really nothing KDF worth buying, nobody buys KDF", which is the "obvious" goal of this thread...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
My character Tsin'xing
And you can pretend the 70% Fed characters doesn't mean 70% players main a Fed. Whatever floats your boat. Personally I'm thinking the 15% KDF is the more likely number to contain bloat, seeing as KDF is the official contraband-farming faction (interesting to see what happens to that now that contraband is nerfed). That's speculation on our part. But Cryptic knows. I can assure you they have stats on play-time, purchases, etc broken down by faction. If they say creating things KDF is not profitable, they mean it.
The majority of players are not going to look at a KDF-exclusive ship "that tied, or slightly beats, the Republic's Scimitar family in the DPS race" and rush to start with a KDF toon just to get a chance to buy it, any more than they rush to switch to a Romulan when they see the Scimitar. Instead they say "cool, but I'm not allowed that" and go buy something they can just buy with a click instead (i.e. something Fed or cross-faction).
"Nobody" buys KDF, because buying KDF is locked behind onerous restrictions. Sure, all players have have the nominal ability to buy thigs KDF, but not on the character(s) they want to buy things on.
Not really. Fairly simple "matter of perspective" issue. To wit:
J'mpok declared war on the Feddies, then proceeded to launch all of no ships at major (or even minor) Federation installations. It was all political bluster and gave them some extra "teeth" if the Feddies try to stage even a "covert" maneuver to help the Gorn.
Meanwhile, B'Vat, ever the Klingon opportunist (who was seemingly being propped up by the baddie of the hour, wasn't both the Iconians and Na'kuhl dropping info on B'Vat to help him with his "instigations"?) was "instigating" all the "prepping for an actual hard war" that Heroic Lt. (or temporal agent Lt.) Blank winds up stumbling into and "solving"...
During all this, Second Officer Someone of the little BOP Something winds up getting a crash-course of KDF "honor" (and a command) over one certain Sec. 31 agent before getting snared in a couple of the aforementioned "shoot a round over the Federation's bow" operations at which point he starts stumbling into B'Vat's schemes and, obviously, takes steps to "fix the Empire's Honor before the 'dirty Fedlings' do it for them"...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Hence the original question. What will it take? My KDF is there because he's my only Delta guy. So I play him to get the Delta rewards. I figured at the time, it'd be perfect to create a Klingon, because every character reaps the rewards. And every MMO is a risk/reward system. There's no point to making a Klingon if there is nothing to reap from it aside from "just having one."
This is why there needs to be a brainstorming session. What will it take? If we could reward your other alts for the process of making/leveling a KDF alt, what would you want? And be reasonable.
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
My character Tsin'xing
I have neither the time nor the desire to play 5 toons. I have the one toon I want to play and if they don't see fit to sell KDF ships to that toon, then I'm just not going to buy KDF ships.
There's nothing they could reasonably make KDF-exclusive that would get me to switch my main.
One of the bonus points for KDF toons is that they have many, many more opportunities to earn contraband through DOFF assignments. Of course, now that they've increased the mission duration you can't turn it over as fast. Still, if it's their way of reducing the amount of dil ore you can earn I can see how it can be a good thing.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
My character Tsin'xing
Not a single species. A single market. The largest market in the game. Where the profit is.
What the KDF really needs is to be in the single market. Instead of 70%/15%/15%, there should be just one 100% market. No restrictions. Because I'm sure the KDF ships would sell better if they were available for everyone. And if they sold better, Cryptic would make more of them.
And maybe more players would even pick the KDF origin if it didn't forever condemn the character into being on the receiving end of "not available for your faction." Yeah, sure the purists scream bloody murder at the mere option of buying a Fed ship, but like I said they're a minority.
This is exactly why I've been saying people misguidedly cry after more restrictions. Because they desperately cling to that foolish notion that the Klingon experience must be an all-or-nothing deal, even as it's being run to the ground. That it somehow diminishes their game if "the Feds" get the same things they do.
When the truth is the exact opposite.
Well, none of that's a faction issue, is it? For better or for worse all the factions have the same content, origin stories notwithstanding. And the same lame zone chat. The only difference, at endgame, is what you're allowed to buy. Actually, I main a Romulan.
It's just unlike the purists, I recognize that there is a majority and there will always be a majority, but the minorities are an artificial construct created by intentional restrictions. And that it would be in everyone's best interests to dismantle those restrictions.
One thing that might help bring more players over to the KDF side (or even ROM faction) would be to add a KDF version of the new AoY stuff, but that might be a stretch.
So they abandon PvP and give the Feds ships they don't need or require, now there's no reason for the KDF to exist.
Then they do LoR and provide a new line of ships that can be used by a Fed-aligned character who will get treated exactly like a Fed, most these new ships are fragile yet overpowered and Fed-only players have no idea how to use them so they get panned as 'useless' and no-one buys them, or has no-one else noticed that all the latest Romulan ships are getting tougher and bigger?
Battle-cruisers and Carriers should be KDF only, Singularity powers are rightly Romulan warbird only, Feds get to keep the masses of cruisers backed up with dozens of science ships and a handful of escorts / escort-carriers.
As it is the Feds have almost as many Battle-cruisers as the KDF does and most of the KDF ones aren't even t5, the Fed ones start at t5.
They and the Romulans (through a lockbox) both get a t6 Carrier when neither should get any. Meanwhile the KDF still haven't got any t6 Carriers.
I do not want access to Romulan or Federation ships for any of my KDF characters, likewise none of my Romulan or Federation characters require, want or need any KDF ships, so the idea that more ships would sell if you removed the limit on who could buy them both doesn't hold or make sense and should be left for IF the game survives to or skips ahead to being set in the 31st century.
the same can be said for all factions... no matter which character i play, fed/rom or dkf, im bombarded with fleet invites. so i mainly join one just to keep them away and earn some FC's for fleet ships.
Something I'd like to see is some of the little things you see with certain fed species (eg you can nerve pinch that scientist on Drozanna in the past instead of talking to her for ages to get to the planck regulator thingy). I'd like my Orion girl to flirt her way out of danger instead of using diplomacy. I'd like my Lethean to telepathically knock someone out to get past them instead of talking all nicey-nicey. I'd like my Gorn to lisp menacingly and scare someone out of my way. I'd also like to see my Bajoran have the option to say "Trust in the Prophets", my Tellarite to argue and insult his way to getting what he wants and for each race to have some "flavour" dialogue once in a while.
We have eng/tac/sci options in missions already, so why not race options?
Maybe an accolade for flirting your way through ten times could be "sweet-tart", arguing 10 times could be "all bluster" and nerve pinching could be "got out of a pinch"?
I can't see us getting more ships/missions/more of anything that isn't cross-faction so this way, since they'll be doing it for everyone, we'll get some love too.
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
The problem with this example is a false equivelancy between cosplay and metalworking... and running a game development studio. Similarly, while farming and running a restaurant has many things in common (such as the preparation and distribution of food), the amount of technical skill, manpower requirements, and a multitude of other things are so drastically different that it's impossible to compare the two jobs as being equivelant in form and function.
For starters, the people at conventions and whatnot who sell Klingon-themed costumes and prosthetics and weapons usually only do this as a side-job, to make some extra money for a hobby or tradeskill they have. It may only be one or two people involved, as opposed to a game studio like Cryptic which employs way more than that, and that they don't do this as a hobby.
This isn't to say that the people at conventions aren't as skilled as game developers, but it is a different technical skill, and the profit margins for them are much, much lower than that of a game studio which is expected to compete in a very cut-throat market.
The people who sit at booths in conventions selling their wares are not exactly rolling in millions of dollars, nor do they answer to wealthy stockholders. Cryptic, on the other hand does.
On the surface, it seems easy to think that because Cryptic creates pixels that it should be easy for them to turn a profit compared to somebody who creates tangible Klingon-related paraphenalia with their own two hands and can sell it to people. But when the amount of money involved is tallied up, it just is not comparable to those kinds of entrepreneurs.
It's funny, all of this will be hand-waved with a "But the devs say it doesn't sell.." nonsense, completely missing the point. It's mostly the same people who pointed fingers at other players calling them "liars," or "cheaters," or the old standby, "exploiters" because "Geko said metrics" during the Japori debacle. When he came out and said he was mistaken, none of those posters said anything about the insults and accusations, they just moved along- to parrot the devs about whatever else was being discussed.
The simple thing to say is "it doesn't sell." It's easy, that's what the devs say. It takes no thought whatsoever to just carbon copy that, and make assumptions about how many people would buy KDF stuff, if it wasn't such a massive disincentive. "Metrics" don't say how many people got told in Zone that "LOLKDF." Or that the Kor was such a massive clusterf*** that people didn't buy it because they botched it so badly. Or that STO is known for flagrantly ignoring the KDF faction...because Google. Or any number of other reasons that are so ridiculous it seems that it's purposeful, if it actually isn't.
I had someone ask me about STO not too long ago. The first thing he said was "Can you play a Klingon?" Guess who would rather play something else? I'm not sure how that shows up in any "metrics."
I can't say for sure that they're trying to keep people from playing non-FED, because I'm neither a mind reader nor am I privy to their production meeting info. But it looks like they are, and that's pretty atrocious from a game company marketing their game as "multifaction."