Yes, in the real world it is a dangerous attitude, but Star Trek is an utopian science fiction setting where it's true. The Federation is on the right path.
A science fiction setting that prides itself on presenting moral quandry's to the audience and tackling social issues. The 'everything the federation does is morally perfect because they are the good guys' is a really simplistic view and fly's against the introspective nature of Star Trek, while willfully ignoring the points where Trek writers addressed the problems with the colonialist undertones, such as with the Maquis and Bajorans.
The point is that they had no actual control mechanism for that. The only thing they did was their blood tests, but there was no structural protection against dangerous adventerism, because fighting wars and conquering planets was inherently considered a positive thing and everyone was eager to earn their honor. The Empire didn't stop to think "maybe this is a dumb idea, going to war with a long-term ally?"
Completely ignoring the fact that both the Federation and the Star Empire were infiltrated successfully by changelings. And they did have a mechanism for removing dangerous leaders, or did you not watch that episode either?
Well, then pick a canonical example - the whole Tal'Shiar / Obsidian Order alliance that lead them directly into at deadly trap and cost both organizations dearly. Nothing in place to double check that what they were doing was actually a sound idea or morally acceptable. We have the ships, we know where the enemy is - Let's blow him uip.
And if it had worked, the Dominion leadership would have been beheaded, which is perfectly justifiable from the perspective of Romulan or Cardassian viewpoint. Again, the failure was a result of changeling infiltrator at the highest levels, not the soundness of the plan itself. The actual end of the war also included handing over the cure to an engineered plague that directly targeted the same population.
That's why it will not happen overnight. But it can happen voer the centuries. The KLingons have been exposed to Federation culture since the Khitomer Accords.
And the Klingon-Federation war proved that it was still relatively easy for Klingons to work themselves up into justifying war against just about anybody if there was enough social pressure for another war. We are talking about cultural norms so entrenched that they have been little changed since before the Klingons achieved spaceflight.
I think it's dull that Romulans and Klingons will be forever rivals with the Federation. At some point it's time to introduce someone new. A static universe is not very believable.
And now you have a problem with believably. No cultural/political system is perfectly stable. If you think it's unrealistic for the Klingons and Romulans to be static, then you should also realize that it's unrealistic to expect the federation to remain static either. But somehow I think you'd object to the Federation turning into a military dictatorship, even though that very possibility has loomed on more than one occasion.
Of course this shouldn't or could't happen in Star Trek. The Tal Shiar will have to adapt its business to morally and ethically less questinonable practices, and the Remans have to be as free as the Romulans. And the Klingons might have to abandon some of their bloodlust and direct their aggression to more constructive goals. It's not like these are actually desirable aspects of these Empires? Can you think of a scenario where you would want to be a neighbour of the Klingons without the Federation protection? Can you thin kof a scenario where you would want to be a Reman under Romulan oppression? If not, it's obvious that these cultures need to change.
Desirable for members of the Federation. NOT necessarily to the members of the Klingon and Romulan empires. The Federation, Ferengi, Cardassians etc might not appreciate close proximity to warmongering Klingons, but for the Klingons it provides and absolutely vital outlet for the societal need to earn glory and honor on the battlefield as well as a method to gain resources and expand the empire through conquest. For them, those are perfectly constructive goals. (indeed, you'd be hard pressed to find a successful empire on Earth that wasn't founded on conquest)
As for the Remans, while they'd likely want nothing more than to get as far away from the Star Empire as possible, they probably aren't in a terribly great position post-Nemesis. They assassinated most of the senate and alienated the rest who raised them to power almost immediately afterwards before destroying themselves by throwing the flagship (possibly their only ship) in a suicidal and insane plan. They pretty much blew their chance, and considering the vindictive and ruthless nature of Romulan culture, they probably aren't going to be enjoying a second chance anytime soon. As for all the horrible things the Star Empire does, I think it's pretty easy for them to justify the stuff they do. They seem to have a very self-centered concept of morality as a philosophical and cultural fact, so justifications come easily, and those who think otherwise seem to get stamped out pretty quickly.
However, while I understand the two of you seem to have issues with each other, I do find both the "R" word and suggestions of mental disabilities highly offensive. If you guys must continue your argument, please leave those things out of it.
What do you call someone with down syndrome smoking a joint?
A baked potato.
My work here is done
Good job we've got the report feature back isn't it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
What do you call someone with down syndrome smoking a joint?
A baked potato.
My work here is done
Good job we've got the report feature back isn't it.
I personally don't agree with the PC police on the use of the word "****", especially as it is so rarely applied to actual mentally disabled people and more often as a synonym for stupid except more extreme. And hell, I really have no argument with stigmatizing a lack of intelligence in the first place. We already have a problem with vast amounts of ignorance and idiocy among the general population and an anti-intellectual culture.
That said, I have picked up the term "pakleded" as a synonym, along with such cracks as "he looks for things". I'd like to see it spread.
If you don't personally know someone with a mental disability, you might not see or hear the "R" word used that way very often. However, my adopted brother is significantly impaired, to the point that at 29 he's basically a really large toddler, and I've heard that word used a lot. Furthermore, my oldest son has a high functioning form of Autism (Asperger's would be more accurate, but they don't give that diagnoses anymore, just autism), and there was a time when many Autistic people were simply diagnosed as "R" because Autism wasn't as well understood as it is now.
Your post would suggest that you are very ignorant of the challenges many people in this world face.
What do you call someone with down syndrome smoking a joint?
A baked potato.
My work here is done
Good job we've got the report feature back isn't it.
I personally don't agree with the PC police on the use of the word "****", especially as it is so rarely applied to actual mentally disabled people and more often as a synonym for stupid except more extreme. And hell, I really have no argument with stigmatizing a lack of intelligence in the first place. We already have a problem with vast amounts of ignorance and idiocy among the general population and an anti-intellectual culture.
That said, I have picked up the term "pakleded" as a synonym, along with such cracks as "he looks for things". I'd like to see it spread.
If you don't personally know someone with a mental disability, you might not see or hear the "R" word used that way very often. However, my adopted brother is significantly impaired, to the point that at 29 he's basically a really large toddler, and I've heard that word used a lot. Furthermore, my oldest son has a high functioning form of Autism (Asperger's would be more accurate, but they don't give that diagnoses anymore, just autism), and there was a time when many Autistic people were simply diagnosed as "R" because Autism wasn't as well understood as it is now.
Your post would suggest that you are very ignorant of the challenges many people in this world face.
Unfortunately, that ignorance is the very state of the internet that many thrive and seem to take a certain level of pride in.
and they don't remember how to add lobi to the featured episode re-runs anymore.
oh... so I didn't dream that... and I actually did get lobi that way in years past??
Indeed, this was a thing that happened. STO coding is like Damascus steel now. We know they made it a long time ago, but everybody who remembers how to make it is no longer around.
Not true. Damascus steel is a metallic composite created by repeatedly heating and cooling metal while pounding it flat. Also the source needs a certain chemical composition. (this is the secret ingredient that took 2000 years to figure out) It is mostly regular steel, but with a tiny "impurity" that causes part of it to be hard and part soft. These alternating layers are what gives it it's distinctive look. It's also what makes it have it's unique properties. the soft parts make it flexible, the hard give it an edge.
But we still can't reproduce it (at least not in its entirety), that was the point I was trying to make. Damascus steel is often imitated, never duplicated.
Enh... people have made stuff that is close enough that it could be mistaken for the real thing by people who know what the real thing looks like. It has the same composition, properties, and internal structure, the only difference is that exact specifics of how it was pounded into shape.
Klingon and Romulan culture and politics is non-reconcilable with the Federation because many of their core practices and beliefs are directly at odds with those of the federation- letting them join while allowing them to continue those practices would undermine the ethical integrity of the Federation.
Also, I feel that the comparison to the EU is not great. The EU has shown a degree of willingness to sweep human rights violations and corruption under the rug (Turkey comes to mind)? Can you see the Federation allowing the Star Empire to join the Federation while still allowing them to oppress the Remans or having the Tal Shiar continue business as usual?
Same would hold true for the Klingons.
There are definite limits to what the Federation would allow. Joining would undoubtedly require many compromises.
Not sure you intended it but this last makes it seem like the Romulans and the Klingons would be the ones having to change.
As for moral high-grounds, the old saying 'don't throw stones when standing in a glass house' applies to the federation, and they have so many glass houses to choose from.
As long as Section 31 exists in any shape or form, the Federation CANNOT make many comments on the tal shiar without looking rather stupid.
Then there are the current tensions within the Federation about using holograms and androids as slave labor in dangerous facilities, so any comments about how the Remans are being treated will just get laughed at.
As for the Klingons, getting them to change the way they do things is going to be almost impossible, the empire's history shows they haven't changed much since they stole warp tech from the Hur'q. If it isn't broken why try to 'fix' it?
Also, the Romulan Republic is a Romulan / Reman federation in all but name so the Romulans being absorbed through treaties etc are probably the Imperial Star Empire idiots who have yet to kill Sela off, until they do, they are not worth talking to.
Well yes, the point is that the Romulans and Klingons would be pretty heavily against such an arrangement as they are culturally and politically opposite the federation on a great many issues. For the Federation to accept the Klingons and Romulans as is would invite a great deal of destabilization and invite some rather unhealthy precedents into the federation. The federation already has problems with slavery of photonics and Section 31 is, as you say-just as bad as the Tal Shiar. Can you imagine what the outcome might be if the Federation allowed slavery like we saw at Rura Penthe or Remus on cultural grounds?
And for it to occur in the reverse would require either uncharacteristic coercion by the federation, mass amnesia/brainwashing, or some sort of awful rewrite like the Romulans in STO got where all of those inconvenient 'barrier' cultural differences get unceremoniously shot out an airlock.
I Think the first option (federation accommodating the Romulans and Klingons) probably isn't terribly appealing to a lot of federation fans because it would essentially mark the end of the federation as we know it. While the other option (which apparently cryptic is using) isn't great because it would erase or dilute many of the aspects of those societies that made them stand out on the shows and which got them fans in the first place.
All the factions are basically the same at this point. They work together in everything. They all do the same missions, in the exact same way, not even trying to ask the player to sneak in some advantage for their own faction. They even had a single chain of command against the Iconians. Joining together does not just seem eminently plausible, but inevitable.
The Klingons wouldn't be the first warrior culture in Federation. Sure, the Federation couldn't allow Starfleet officers - Klingon or otherwise - to duel to the death for the captain's chair, but the Klingons' prison policies wouldn't be a deciding point. The Romulan Republic is basically already Federation Lite.
The Star Empire joining the Federation isn't even a question. It's gone and not coming back. Last time we saw an imperialist Romulan ship, it was a ratty old freighter.
And the Tal Shiar joined the Iconians, so not even Sela would take them back anymore. Only T'ket could theoretically still want something to do with them.
Section 31 is definitely not as bad as Tal Shiar. At least they didn't ally with the Iconians to blow up their own homeworld.
As long as Section 31 exists in any shape or form, the Federation CANNOT make many comments on the tal shiar without looking rather stupid.
There is a major difference. S31 doesn't terrorize Federation citizens on a regular basis. The Tal Shiar has a habit of making people disappear permanently for flimsy excuses.
They even had a single chain of command against the Iconians..
Haven't they had a singular chain of Command in some form since the Dyson Joint Command stuff when they first found the Dyson spheres?
I actually liked how they handled it TBH.
-Everyone is on their own until the Borg Arc.
-The Borg are the first threat that makes everyone go "Hey man, we kinda ALL have to do something about this if we want to beat them." Forming Task Force Omega, a joint fleet despite the Fed/Klingon war still going on.
-During the Tholian threat at Nukara both sides were like "Ok, the Tholians are bad for both of us, and we wont shoot each other, but you stay on your base and we will stay on ours while we work together to do this!"
-During the Romulus Republic stuff both sides were working to helping the RR, but also trying to get the Roms to join them.
-Then when the Dyson Sphere stuff happens, they form a more formal cooperative chain of Command due to the threat posed by the Voth and the omega particles.
-This continued into the Undine threat.
-After the Undine failed to destroy both Earth and Qo'noS, the three decided to officially end the war, and unite into an actual political alliance to take on the ever escalating threats they were facing.
-This alliance went through the Delta Rising, Iconian War, and Temporal Cold War events
-The Events of the Temporal Cold War eventally led to the Tholian Assembly, the Breen Confederacy, and The Dominion into joining, forming the Galactic Union.
I really like how its been a rather slow and progressive change over the course of all the reputations.
You overlooked the Deferi arc, which had a bit different rationale for the two factions to work together - the Deferi were basically "old friends" in need, for both factions, and that made them more or less work together from afar.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Yeah. Apart from the drastically compressed internal timescale (remember, it's been less than two years since the Borg attacked Vega and the Elachi attacled Virinat), the progression from enemy to ally between the Federation and the Klingons has been quite organic and believable.
At this point, they have fought and died together, on a massive scale, fighting the most powerful enemy the modern galaxy has ever faced. That bonds people - and, given the way the political is personal in both nations, that bonds the nations and militaries too.
Their last alliance was destabilized deliberately by an external enemy with incredible experience and cunning, working through shapechanging, telepathic proxies. When the dust settled, their friendship was stronger than it was before the war.
I think merging the factions, at least for teaming and fleet building, would make perfect sense.
I'd love that to be the case. 3 years would be a huge improvement on the overcompressed time thing. But I'll wait for them to update the time officially in-game, or release an official timeline, before I make that leap.
Problem with altering the date would be then they have to go back and check / change it whenever it is mentioned, for the temporal accord mission, as an example, there are at least three mentions of 2410 alone (that I can remember off the top of my head).
I too have never understood why they seem to want us to rise through the ranks so fast, it doesn't make much sense.
To start with OK, yeah we survived a gank attempt by a daft klingon in a scrap-yard negh'var and then the borg at the Vega colony.
So we have apparently demonstrated we can handle difficult stuff so we get a permanent command.
Being in the middle of the klingon war kinda helps.
But that doesn't explain the rest of the meteoric rise in rank you get.
I always wondered why they insist on pressing all the stuff we do into that short 2-year-period. The whole story would work just as well if every mission (plus stuff to do before and after) represented about 3 months of time, and we'd have not 2410, but something like 2430 now.
Edit: Actually, the story would then not work "just as well", but "way better".
We can only speculate. The easiest take is that they simply never got around to updating the year.
It could also be part of their license agreement: "You can make a Star Trek game set in 2410".
I have some doubts that they think it's a good idea to have all of STO happen within 2 years.... And I hope they'll keep progressing the date a bit more aggresive from now on. Even though the damage is already done.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Problem with altering the date would be then they have to go back and check / change it whenever it is mentioned, for the temporal accord mission, as an example, there are at least three mentions of 2410 alone (that I can remember off the top of my head).
[...]
Voiceovers may be an issue, everything else can be changed in the blink of an eye.
Except what people call you. I still can't get people to call me 'Captain' they keep insisting I'm some kind of Fleet Admiral.
Problem with altering the date would be then they have to go back and check / change it whenever it is mentioned, for the temporal accord mission, as an example, there are at least three mentions of 2410 alone (that I can remember off the top of my head).
[...]
Voiceovers may be an issue, everything else can be changed in the blink of an eye.
Except what people call you. I still can't get people to call me 'Captain' they keep insisting I'm some kind of Fleet Admiral.
Hell yes!
I would love it if we could get a toggle for being addressed by our currently active title or just having a title active it automatically overrides whatever rank we are.
Plus it can be really inconsistent, one episode we get referred to as 'captain' next one they refer to us by our rank (whatever that may be).
Also I've noticed sometimes in foundry missions where you are referred to by your full rank and name it'll do part of it twice.
Comments
However, while I understand the two of you seem to have issues with each other, I do find both the "R" word and suggestions of mental disabilities highly offensive. If you guys must continue your argument, please leave those things out of it.
-Taco
@officerbatman81 its kind of impossible to when you keep flagging me in your posts, sets off notifications on top of everything else.
Good job we've got the report feature back isn't it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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never go full pakled.... hmmm it has potential
If you don't personally know someone with a mental disability, you might not see or hear the "R" word used that way very often. However, my adopted brother is significantly impaired, to the point that at 29 he's basically a really large toddler, and I've heard that word used a lot. Furthermore, my oldest son has a high functioning form of Autism (Asperger's would be more accurate, but they don't give that diagnoses anymore, just autism), and there was a time when many Autistic people were simply diagnosed as "R" because Autism wasn't as well understood as it is now.
Your post would suggest that you are very ignorant of the challenges many people in this world face.
Unfortunately, that ignorance is the very state of the internet that many thrive and seem to take a certain level of pride in.
My character Tsin'xing
Not sure you intended it but this last makes it seem like the Romulans and the Klingons would be the ones having to change.
As for moral high-grounds, the old saying 'don't throw stones when standing in a glass house' applies to the federation, and they have so many glass houses to choose from.
As long as Section 31 exists in any shape or form, the Federation CANNOT make many comments on the tal shiar without looking rather stupid.
Then there are the current tensions within the Federation about using holograms and androids as slave labor in dangerous facilities, so any comments about how the Remans are being treated will just get laughed at.
As for the Klingons, getting them to change the way they do things is going to be almost impossible, the empire's history shows they haven't changed much since they stole warp tech from the Hur'q. If it isn't broken why try to 'fix' it?
Also, the Romulan Republic is a Romulan / Reman federation in all but name so the Romulans being absorbed through treaties etc are probably the Imperial Star Empire idiots who have yet to kill Sela off, until they do, they are not worth talking to.
And for it to occur in the reverse would require either uncharacteristic coercion by the federation, mass amnesia/brainwashing, or some sort of awful rewrite like the Romulans in STO got where all of those inconvenient 'barrier' cultural differences get unceremoniously shot out an airlock.
I Think the first option (federation accommodating the Romulans and Klingons) probably isn't terribly appealing to a lot of federation fans because it would essentially mark the end of the federation as we know it. While the other option (which apparently cryptic is using) isn't great because it would erase or dilute many of the aspects of those societies that made them stand out on the shows and which got them fans in the first place.
The Klingons wouldn't be the first warrior culture in Federation. Sure, the Federation couldn't allow Starfleet officers - Klingon or otherwise - to duel to the death for the captain's chair, but the Klingons' prison policies wouldn't be a deciding point. The Romulan Republic is basically already Federation Lite.
The Star Empire joining the Federation isn't even a question. It's gone and not coming back. Last time we saw an imperialist Romulan ship, it was a ratty old freighter.
And the Tal Shiar joined the Iconians, so not even Sela would take them back anymore. Only T'ket could theoretically still want something to do with them.
Section 31 is definitely not as bad as Tal Shiar. At least they didn't ally with the Iconians to blow up their own homeworld.
My character Tsin'xing
You overlooked the Deferi arc, which had a bit different rationale for the two factions to work together - the Deferi were basically "old friends" in need, for both factions, and that made them more or less work together from afar.
At this point, they have fought and died together, on a massive scale, fighting the most powerful enemy the modern galaxy has ever faced. That bonds people - and, given the way the political is personal in both nations, that bonds the nations and militaries too.
Their last alliance was destabilized deliberately by an external enemy with incredible experience and cunning, working through shapechanging, telepathic proxies. When the dust settled, their friendship was stronger than it was before the war.
I think merging the factions, at least for teaming and fleet building, would make perfect sense.
I too have never understood why they seem to want us to rise through the ranks so fast, it doesn't make much sense.
To start with OK, yeah we survived a gank attempt by a daft klingon in a scrap-yard negh'var and then the borg at the Vega colony.
So we have apparently demonstrated we can handle difficult stuff so we get a permanent command.
Being in the middle of the klingon war kinda helps.
But that doesn't explain the rest of the meteoric rise in rank you get.
We can only speculate. The easiest take is that they simply never got around to updating the year.
It could also be part of their license agreement: "You can make a Star Trek game set in 2410".
I have some doubts that they think it's a good idea to have all of STO happen within 2 years.... And I hope they'll keep progressing the date a bit more aggresive from now on. Even though the damage is already done.
Really small, but very dedicated. Q'apla!
Except what people call you. I still can't get people to call me 'Captain' they keep insisting I'm some kind of Fleet Admiral.
Hell yes!
I would love it if we could get a toggle for being addressed by our currently active title or just having a title active it automatically overrides whatever rank we are.
Plus it can be really inconsistent, one episode we get referred to as 'captain' next one they refer to us by our rank (whatever that may be).
Also I've noticed sometimes in foundry missions where you are referred to by your full rank and name it'll do part of it twice.