test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Agents of Yesterday: Canon TOS designs?
melore1799
Member Posts: 11 Arc User
I'd like to preface my question by say I'm supremely excited for AoY as The Original Series is my favorite era, always ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/sftm.htm
will be. The new TOS ship are very interesting and quite original; I give the designers alot of kudos for their creativity. To my question, if any of the designers are listening in Cryptic-land, will we get any of the classic canon designs that have been in the TOS since the beginning? I'm speaking of ships like the Federation-class -- the amazing 3-nacelled battleship -- and the single-nacelle scout Hermes-class. They've been around since Gene Roddenberry and his writers created the official Star Trek technical manual. It would be great to see them in AoY at some point and truely honor all aspects of TOS history. Thanks for listening.
will be. The new TOS ship are very interesting and quite original; I give the designers alot of kudos for their creativity. To my question, if any of the designers are listening in Cryptic-land, will we get any of the classic canon designs that have been in the TOS since the beginning? I'm speaking of ships like the Federation-class -- the amazing 3-nacelled battleship -- and the single-nacelle scout Hermes-class. They've been around since Gene Roddenberry and his writers created the official Star Trek technical manual. It would be great to see them in AoY at some point and truely honor all aspects of TOS history. Thanks for listening.
0
Answers
So we won't be seeing any of those in the game.
And I agree, that SUKS!
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I know, I was hoping for a Federation-class myself, but...
By the time he got around to giving the OK for Franz Joseph to publish the Tech Manual and Deck Plans, Paramount had already assumed control of the IP and had given FJ permission to go ahead with the projects, as long as they got a hefty percentage of the profits.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I can believe that Paramount would have let this slip (Nobody figured any of this would last beyond a few years). That wouldn't have happened under Gene. He famously wrote lyrics to the theme song so that he could get paid every time the show aired (which was the deal that Alexander Courage insisted upon. Gene just piggybacked on his contract).
Actually, depending on the contract, music can be sold outright for an upfront fee and the purchaser then becomes the copyright holder, instead of the composer, which is why I mentioned that Courage set it up the way he did. But yeah, Gene got 50%, which is one of the reasons Courage never came back to the show after the first two episodes (he left to do another show, and was offered the chance to come back for season 2, but said no).
Copyright...it's a mess. George Lucas is the master, since he had the smarts to get likenesses and everything in the contracts so that they were owned by Lucasfilm. Carrie Fisher used to joke that she had to pay George every time she looked in the mirror.
Yeah, well, nobody did merchandising on the scale that Lucas did back then, so giving up those rights seemed like nothing at the time.
I've never really followed what was going on with the "Star Fleet Battles" thing, but it seems like a really interesting mess.
memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Fleet_Battles
Apparently they have limited rights to use the Tech Manual (though it's still a separate entity) and the Animated Series, but can't mention events or characters from the TOS movies or TNG and beyond. They can't really even mention Star Trek (at least I think that's the case, since it notes that they don't use Star Trek in the title) but can depict the ships, uniforms and props from the Original Series.
SFB made their deal with Mr. Joseph and there was nothing Paramount could do about it except try to collect a share of the profits based on the use of the USS Enterprise.
<shrug>
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
They can hold rights separately because as I understand it Gene Rodenberry gave them those rights before CBS realized it had something they should thoroughly box up, and its derivative of the portion of the IP the SFB folks control - namely expanding on Star Fleet's range of ship designs for their setting and games. Paramount can't (or at least hasn't succeeded yet) in seizing those rights back from SFB. I believe in part because the agreement is either so incredibly simple there is not wiggle room or it may be entirely verbal and no longer subject to close scrutiny. To compare, consider the control Harmony Gold has over Macross in the United States without any time limits or expiration date, ever. IP law really was a LOT more primitive only a generation ago and things happened that would be absolutely inconceivable today.
If they could make the case that it was inspired by and derivative of the designs they control, they'd eat CBS alive by the same rules CBS exerts on others. Make no mistake CBS/Paramount give those guy a wide berth, and in most cases that's really a non-issue for them as they DON'T do nostalgia work like Cryptic is trying to cash in on with AoY.
It comes down to the details set down in the licensing agreement. If the contract stipulates that the Tech Manual and its contents are solely owned by the creator, than it doesn't matter that they're derivative of the original design.
If you had a licensing agreement to write fiction based on the Star Trek IP, and that agreement stipulates that you retain ownership of the characters you create in that work of fiction, than CBS can't do a thing about it, regardless of if those characters use the same props, wear the same uniforms or anything else that exists within the bounds of CBS's trademark.
It's similar to the Kzinti situation. It was an alien race that was created by author Larry Niven before the Animated Series, that he then chose to incorporate into the stories that he wrote for the show. He still retains the rights to that species though. (Similarly, the Daleks from Doctor Who are owned by the estate of author Terry Nation who created them and not by the BBC which produces Doctor Who).
Bottom line is that it was a horribly written contract that gave away too much, and the lawyers for Paramount/CBS allowed it to happen.
At least on the Star Trek side, it is...
Franz Joseph, in the early 70s, requested permission to make a "Technical Manual" off the Star Trek Property. In said deal, anything that was "canon" and reproduced in his book would be copyright Trek, anything he "derived" from Trek Properties would be "his" copyright.
Which is, BTW, the cause of the "all starships need to have paired nacelles" commentary of Gene's, because HE wasn't included in on the deal, every time the Federation Dreadnought or the Hermes/Saladin Class or the Ptlomey class tug showed up anywhere on a screen, Mr. Joseph (and estate) gets paid, Gene does not. By denying the "ability" to go single-nacelle or triple-nacelle, the Hermes/Saladin & Federation classes couldn't be "canon" by any stretch of the imagination...
Shortly after the tech manual's release, ADB (makers of StarFleet Battles) negotiated rights to the Tech Manual from Franz Joseph himself. That's why the Fed lineup uses the "lollipop" Destroyer, the "Connie" Cruiser, "Federation" Dreadnought, and Ptlomey Tug silhouettes - which then started a massive dustup because the Connie's copyright is still Trek's, and at the time (what, mid 70s?), Trek wasn't the big big name so when Steve Cole and the crew at ADB said "we'll pay you a little royalty for every set we manage to sell", CBS approved - caveating that while they could list the 1701 - Enterprise in their records, they were to avoid using Kirk, Spock, McCoy & Co., or the Enterprise in any endeavours outside of maybe the occasional shout-out of what was "canon", nothing outside the original series could be mentioned (so they aren't allowed to list NCC-1701-A Enterprise, or "officially" pull any TNG-related stuffs) but the rest was "alright"...
And if you think all this was interesting, I wonder if the interwebs still has stories about how convoluted the licensing behind the Starfleet Command games was. They had to get a Trek License, ADB License, and maybe a Technical Manual license just to start the series...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Yeah, it really does. Having the Federation class in the game would make the development of the Galaxy-X with its three nacelles make a lot more sense.
Again, it goes back to what he designed is what he owns.
I couldn't go out there and make a ship that looks just like, or similar to the TOS constitution and use it for my own IP. Because CBS/Paramount owns that design and the elements of it.
It wasn't CBS back then, the Desilu Productions Company (Lucille Ball & Desi Arnez) was the first holder, then it got sold to Paramount Pictures/Gulf+Western in 1967.
At that point it became part of Paramount Television.
CBS didn't come into the picture till another merger in 2000 when Viacom (which owned CBS) bought Paramount.
Then in 2005 Viacom split their Television and Movie production company's, at that point CBS was put in control of all the Television program libraries (including Star Trek) and Paramount went back to just being a movie production company.
That's the very short version of how this all fell out over the last 50 years.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Unless you're Alex Peters...
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
You are correct. But sometimes it's just easier to short hand the copyright holder to CBS, since that's who we're generally used to talking about - and it's confusing referencing all of the different rights holders across the last 50 years to make a point. That and right now it's CBS that is kept from using these designs because of the deals that were made back then.
At the risk of derailing this thread...he's not using the designs for his own IP. He - both wrongfully and rightfully assumed given the fact that CBS and Paramount have a history of allowing fan films to be created using the elements of the shows and movies, that he could do the same for his own fan film.
Let's not get into where he allegedly went wrong there. There's been a few threads on that already that have been shut down, and I don't see the point of going through all that again by hijacking this one really.
You aren't fooling anybody, Alex Peters.
Damn it, I LoL'd too much again...
And I was just going for the joke there.
Not really looking to rehash that particular topic.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion