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Your Past is My Future.
gradii
Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
"Professor, Maybe I don't give a damn about your past becuase it's MY FUTURE, and as far as I'm concerned it HASN'T BEEN WRITTEN YET!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2U4pssEqHY
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
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I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
So they're travelling back to our time and then they decide what can and cannot be done (like destroying the Tox Uthat instead of hiding it) because, basically, it's the law. But it's their law, not ours.
The problem is more how it is presented in STO. Granted I haven't seen EVERY time travel story in Star Trek, but usually when something involving Time Travel happens, it tends to involve non-involvement rather then manipulating a particular event.
Trials and Tribble-ations is a perfect example. The DS9 crew's intent was to NOT do anything to the timeline, Basically let things happen as they are. So if Kirk Decided to just go down to K-7, and start "evicting" Klingons, You let him, because you have no right to interfere with what happens in the past.
The only reason you interfere is to correct something that YOU did, by being there. Take the Kirk example I just did. Obviously he isn't suppose to do that, so the question isn't one of stopping him, but rather what did the DS9 Crew do, that caused that to happen.
The Prime Directive is meant to work the same way. it isn't about letting something happen or not happen, it is about not getting involved in something, because ultimately it is none of your business.
Going back to the Na'khul and all that. Basically, because the Tox Uxhat is a piece of Future tech, it can be argued that it was NOT suppose to be here to begin with. Thus anything involving it is in essence a break in the intended timeline, not the other way around. So the Na'khul should be in the right in undoing its effect. But that isn't what is presented as the storyline, so it is kind of flawed in my mind.
Do you stick your fingers into your eyes? Is it the only thing that ever stops the ache? Does it ever end or does it twist it's way inside? If the pain goes on, are you gonna make it?
Indeed. It BS like the Timecops that make me wish STO was more open with more player agency. My Captain, Siron G'Ziph would be telling Danies and his buddies to sod off. Oh, it might cause a bad future? Than she'll fight them, too. And the guys that come after them.
-Dedication plaque of the Federation Starship U.S.S. Merkava
True. But I was going off the general guideline, and how I don't feel the current storyline applies. As I said, By virtue of the fact that it was a FUTURE event that caused the Na'khul start to die, it should be within the confines of the Temporal Accords to prevent the act from happening. Because if Future Tholians using Future Tech didn't exist, The Na'khul star would.
so what you get by preventing that is putting events right, and back on their natural course. But that isn't the story we have, which is why I think it is a weak one.
I am ok with Timecops deciding events should not be altered, but when a group from the future enters the past, essentially events HAVE been altered, so you should correct those alterations.
Which is another reason I think the Future Proof storyline is currently rather weak. When you look at things like the Prime Directive, and the Genetic Engineering ban, they have one thing in common. They exist because violations with them, more often then not, come out bad.
Genetic Engineering brought Earth the Eugenics Wars. More civilizations have been destroyed then saved by interference. The Temporal Accords should be much the same. We don't mess with time, because it is bad, and the end result is rarely ever better then had we just left well enough alone.
But we don't get that, it comes out as arbitrary because we have an incident where interference from the future resulted in something bad (Na'khul star dying) and yet instead of correcting that (because it was from interference of a time traveler, using future tech) we are "well that happened, nothing we can do about it now"
And this is why I've taken to calling these boys "Temporal Instigations"...
Because it's mighty convenient that certain time-travel events (like the two missions of the Devidian arc where you time travel and leave behind lasting changes, or the episode where Kirk goes back to "spy" on the 20th century and intercepts a jet pilot because of their presence) are allowed, but other ones aren't.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Thus, if you found a way to prematurely kill Hitler, the End Of Time culture must erase your meddling and allow Hitler's timeline to unfold as it did so that it ultimately reaches them. Any historical alteration risks erasing the culture at the end of time, (possibly even replacing it with something better,) and even though Hitler was involved in some heinous atrocities, the worst crime from the End Of Time culture's PoV would be the elimination of them.
Thus, plagues, wars, genocides, and other insanities must be preserved if they are a part of the history that leads to the End Of Time culture. Once time travel and its potential to eliminate the End Of Time culture come into existence, the End Of Time culture must preserve itself from temporal meddling or an alternate End Of Time culture will be created which does a better job of preserving itself.
Yeah, I was almost thinking along the same lines. Agent Daniels is presented as a good guy because he's on the side of your noble heroes in Enterprise. However, it's worth noting that everything he does preserves humanity's future and the Federation above all else. And TRIBBLE, maybe the other options are terrible if you just let things go. But it certainly makes you wonder about the casualties along the way and what's up with the sphere builders. There's a story there, and it doesn't really have to be pretty for our hero captain.
Granted, My memory of Enterprise is spotty at best, but I always saw Daniels and a reaction to someone else. In other words, he only acted in relation to someone (usually the suliban) trying to alter what already happened.
Again, it goes back to the idea that you have to leave events alone. It isn't about this event or this future is better. It is about this is what happened, because it was allowed to happen, without interference.
Yes, brian334's point is a good one. But I think it would feel less arbitrary if the Na'khul's interference in the timeline (and thus the Temporal War) was not do to a high minded person not wanting to change events that were a direct result of Time shenanigans to begin with.
Check your source, dareau: The Devidian missions involved us intervening to repair the timeline after somebody else screwed with it. And you actually get less experience points for "Night of the Comet" if you disable the Klingon flagship because you weren't supposed to cause any major changes. Cases like Star Trek IV where the protagonists deliberately tamper with the past are the exception rather than the rule until the Temporal Crack War.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I think he was more focusing on the fact that we blow up a comet that is suppose to be there 200 some odd years later (or not, comets existence seems to be irrelevant to STO)
Okay, I'll buy that. Counterpoint: the existence or nonexistence of that comet is fundamentally irrelevant to anyone except the Devidians, except inasmuch as it's a navigation hazard.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Or so you think, que "Year of Hell" with Commander Chakotay trying to find a way to get Voyager home without harming anyone else.
I think you have me there. I was going too far along with my temporal consequences idea and really hadn't thought through all that had happened. So, I'll definitely take that blame.
Yeah, That was my later point in the post you quoted. Basically, as NOTHING seems to change with regard to when we return to the present, it would appear that in the grand design of the cosmos, it is rather insignificant.
Pardon me on a fact check but responding to both of you.
Enterprise thrown to the past Kirk and company are trying to clean up the mess of them arriving. Removing evidence of their being there to explicitly not pollute the time line. So that by the end of the episode they made it so they effectively were not there except for a blip that could be considered a malfunction.
Star Trek IV they went to the past to fix the Future They cause only slight disruptions. With the two best being "How do we know he didn't invent the thing." And the whaler losing two whales. They were not out to alter the past and again tried to minimize contamination.
Even when the Guardian of Forever was used it was to go back in time and prevent an alteration rather than cause one. So Kirk gets a pass in my book for doing it right.
Daniels on the other hand kept recruiting the past captains to do his dirty work. Including sending them to their own past. And showing off by plopping Archer in his Earth quarters back before Enterprise launched to show how little they cared and could just play with the time lines.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
By the way, the idea that one comet could be responsible for depositing amino acids on 4000 planets is as ridiculous as being able to see Vulcan from Delta Vega. XD
My bad, I misunderstood you.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
It all kind of makes sense in a nonsensical, logically illogical way.
Hope that that clears things up, got to go, things to do.
Bye.
My Romulans, hell even my Gorn and Ferasan would much prefer to be aiding the Na'kuhl atm. None of them are interested in the "grand" future they see where everyone is a fedbrat
But its the best ever and the players love it!
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I wanna shoot that guy too :P