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Damage Creep - I'm baffled...
nikeix
Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
So, assuming this is correct:
Mk XIV weapons are almost HALF AGAIN more powerful than mark thirteens and nearly double the damage of Mark 12s? Seriously? Ignoring everything else Delta Rising brought to the table, you doubled the damage weapons do by raising the mark cap? I would love to hear the reasoning behind a near 100% damage buff from upgrading, because the upgrading system isn't that hard from what I've seen so far.
I'm also curious about why nearly every weapon mod in the game comes with 2.5% cat 1 damage bonus? It seems like the creep is everywhere.
The other really curious one is why would [DMG] give a 3% overall damage bonus and then the [Acc/Dmg] modifier give a 6% damage bonus? Twice as much along with +10 accuracy?
Now, I'm coming to Star Trek from other MMOs where you work harder than anything in this game's upgrade process to eek out a 1-2% increase in final performance. While I can see the virtue of loosening the reigns a little compared to that... +100% for two mark upgrades? How did this not raise enormous flags? I've been trying to figure out how it came to pass that people tell me content can be done with 10k dps more or less, and there are people dishing in excess of 100k. FAR in excess in some cases. Looking at what upgrading now I have a LOT better understanding how it's happening.
I just don't get why in a game that's been well served by diminishing returns, the weaponry curves all skyrocket. [Acc/Dmg] would still be amazing adding the same 3% as other [Dmg] affixes. Mk XIII and Mk XIV would still be highly desirable adding only abut 11% cat 1 bonus like the twelve marks before them. You actively went out of your way to break existing patterns/curves and the results have made a mockery of difficulty in-game and certainly not been a boon to STO's reputation in wider gaming circles.
Why?
Weapon Mark and Rarity
A weapon's mark determines the Cat1 bonus inherent to the weapon. Mark damage bonuses are cumulative, and follow the following (approximate) scale (all numbers are per each individual mark):
•Mk 0 to Mk I is ~8.2% Cat1 bonus applied to said weapon.
•Mk I to Mk XII is ~10.2% Cat1 bonus applied to said weapon.
•Mk XII to Mk XIII is ~39.6% Cat1 bonus applied to said weapon.
•Mk XIII to Mk XIV is ~70% Cat1 bonus applied to said weapon.
In total, a Mk XIV weapon has a 230% Cat1 bonus before rarity modifier bonuses.
Mk XIV weapons are almost HALF AGAIN more powerful than mark thirteens and nearly double the damage of Mark 12s? Seriously? Ignoring everything else Delta Rising brought to the table, you doubled the damage weapons do by raising the mark cap? I would love to hear the reasoning behind a near 100% damage buff from upgrading, because the upgrading system isn't that hard from what I've seen so far.
I'm also curious about why nearly every weapon mod in the game comes with 2.5% cat 1 damage bonus? It seems like the creep is everywhere.
The other really curious one is why would [DMG] give a 3% overall damage bonus and then the [Acc/Dmg] modifier give a 6% damage bonus? Twice as much along with +10 accuracy?
Now, I'm coming to Star Trek from other MMOs where you work harder than anything in this game's upgrade process to eek out a 1-2% increase in final performance. While I can see the virtue of loosening the reigns a little compared to that... +100% for two mark upgrades? How did this not raise enormous flags? I've been trying to figure out how it came to pass that people tell me content can be done with 10k dps more or less, and there are people dishing in excess of 100k. FAR in excess in some cases. Looking at what upgrading now I have a LOT better understanding how it's happening.
I just don't get why in a game that's been well served by diminishing returns, the weaponry curves all skyrocket. [Acc/Dmg] would still be amazing adding the same 3% as other [Dmg] affixes. Mk XIII and Mk XIV would still be highly desirable adding only abut 11% cat 1 bonus like the twelve marks before them. You actively went out of your way to break existing patterns/curves and the results have made a mockery of difficulty in-game and certainly not been a boon to STO's reputation in wider gaming circles.
Why?
Post edited by nikeix on
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Upgrading from MK XII to XIII and XIV was initially lower and the [DMG] mod used to be completely useless. They adjusted the damage from mark increase to entice people to upgrade and they fixed the [DMG] mod so that [CtrD] wasn't the only modifier people wanted. [Acc] used to actually be good once upon a time, but the large amounts of [CtrH] obtainable after the spire holding pretty much finished killing the [Acc] modifier outside of PvP.
David
*** Aktiv since 03.06.10 ***
XIII and XIV don't need to be massively better to be better. Hearing that it was initially lower is intriguing - it means not only was there a system more akin to what I'd expect, but somebody actually reworked things to bend them into the current shape.
I get why the [Dmg] is set to what it is... I just don't see why [Acc/Dmg] is twice as big a damage bonus with other benefits on top of that. And then there's little cat 1 bonuses to damage sprinkled around places that don't even mention them or seem to need them with all the 2.5% bonuses. How was 3% damage suppose to sound good when every other affix is also giving a cat 1 damage bump?
((I also don't get why +20% crit damage is a sacred cow that hasn't been reduced to +15% but that's a whole other question...))
It just seems like the return on effort of these improvements is really REALLY high. Meanwhile trying to build defense/resistance give only flat advancement and resistance's flat values are then run through a strong diminishing returns curve. As a player, if you're gonna hunt apex damage you're gonna hunt it even if the results don't make you over +100% as strong as a player just now buying their Rep gear. The best is still "the best" when it's not fifteen times "ordinary".
As for backing it off, very unlikely given that I was very much expecting this to be about the recent Skill Revamp, which gives the option to have even more armor penetration, quicker Tac ability recharges, and new Ultimates that could potentially be leveraged in interesting ways (50% CritH for the Science tree, applied to a load of shield bypassing abilities, which now have even more damage reduction and/or deal Electrical damage now).
Honestly? It's painfully clear this is the place where I can ask something like this and get useful informative feedback from players who know the history and have a better than surface grasp of the systems/math and who won't instantly fly into a frothing incoherent rage that anyone might want to have a look at the precious measuring stick that props up their DPS E-peen.
That's probably for the best as I'd have been WAY more venomous if I'd been present for it
How much dil/ec would you estimate to run a single weapon up to gold XIV?
I won't be surprised if my experience is skewed by having chiefly advanced my gear with omega thingies I made during the anniversary or more ordinary manuals I crafted myself, all utilized during the last double tech weekend. I mean I do buy dilithium to move things along when I want something right now (a fleet crit hit console to finish the set bought with dil earned in game, enough to buy a rep-shield to continue tinkering with the cosmetic slots on my main, stuff like that) ...but I'm still converting zeni to dil only about 25-85 cents worth at a time when I get all crazy and impatient
Well the skill change was couched in "no losses" terminology. But I'd say that there is a serious current of discontent out inthe broader community that the variance is so incredibly wide between the have and have nots. To me the game is flagrantly pay-to-win with the purchasing of ship skills... That doesn't bother me, but paying to win by that much seems a tad abusive
Without a major update waiting in the wings, most people aren't going to be looking here at all. The only reason I noticed this thread was I seeing if the Overflow issues are fixed yet, as I have char that's near useless because of it. (Thankfully, just tested and that's fixed for my issue.) Though, I suppose that means all the people you don't want to see it aren't going to either.
Lol. The forums pretty much went into rage mode over this issue (even before buffs), the buffs to enemies, and the XP curve being out of whack (50 -> 60 was a massive grind). Mass bannings resulted to quell the fire.
As for the applecart, check the thread further down in the thread about Leech. Devs found a bug that was causing it to benefit from the old Flow Caps Skill twice as much as it was supposed to, they fixed the error. One thread of complaints later, they buffed it back.
There was a chart made for the estimated costs to get a character at the time from Mk XII to XIV, at just VR, and it was a huge amount, staggering without paying real money, and the real money amount wasn't cheap either.
It's a lot better now. Upgrade weekends? Didn't happen until nearly a year after the Upgrade system went live. It was months until the first Omega event, and it was far buggier and suffered more lag than the last one. Oh, and thanks to being able to run only one research mission at a time then(originally bugged at 5, then fixed to be only 1), only people that poured Dil into the system could make the decent upgrades, so upgrades cost a lot more on the exchange.
Have-and-have-not gap is a major issue, but by the time the average player finds out about it, they're fairly invested in this game (time and emotionally, if not monetarily). So, not driving away new players, as much as slowly edging out older players that want to play semi-competitively but don't want to grind, pay, and/or learn the ins and outs(which often means playing outside of their comfort zone). They're going to have to address it eventually, but they have to tread lightly, or risk loosing the players they seem to have been intending to target with DR (Explorers and Achievers).
I still find it really weird the dichotomy between how much ranking up a weapon helps it vs. say ranking up you're shields. Or consoles. Those seem to have the uniform performance upgrades one would expect... Normalizing is 'a thing', and usually a very good thing despite the kvetching it causes. Beams got a straight up nerf and cannons a buff with drop off normalization. Great call. Now continuing to apply the principle...
On the other hand I've never seen a studio so timid about making it clear to early adopters that they paid a premium for haste. Those early days of upgrading must have made an AWFUL LOT of money, because Cryptic doesn't seem to have nearly the same commitment to keeping other things that cost a boat-load of money like lock box Grand Prize ships up to date. With an average real world price ranging from $90 to $200 I still would like to see the early ones get a polish pass that adds specialization Boff seating even if they don't get unique ship skills. An impulse/expectation so common its apparently verboten to speak of it.
But they certainly wanted the new Mark increase to matter. It might have been more motiviated because it was the first level and gear cap increase in a few years and if it barely affected you, it wouldn't seem very grand, would it?
Meh, I wasn't a fan. But remember that the overall effect to DPS is notable, but not as strong as one might expect due to all the other bonuses that fall under the Cat I category that are usually affecting player weapons.
In the end, for this particular topic - all the relevant discussion happened when Delta Rising hit. It might be that you could actually still find some dev quotes from that time, where they also explained the reasoning for the change. But that would require some digging. I do remember however that the damage increase from Mark didn't start out as high initially, and later Cryptic added to it.
And on the meta discussion of whether Tribble is a good place for stuff like this? Only when it pertains a new feature in testing on Tribble. Otherwise, your chances of getting noticed by players or developers alike are slim. Maybe it means less standard forum rage, but generally low attention probably also means that the community team (aka launghingtrendy) won't really see an importance of the topic for the community.
Most players that run epic gear and mow down NPC's do so at advanced or even normal settings. This is in part due to human nature taking the route of least resistance for maximum return.. and in part by the lack of "rewarding" elite content in the game.
Once that is addressed by cryptic, the damage output we are able to attain will be put to good use. Right now its just overkill unless you run around playing all content on elite. It's like having the best gear in your other game but only fighting "yard trash" and never taking on any bosses or even mini bosses that would really push you.
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Original post where they decided to change the Mark 13 and Mark 14
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1175062/changes-to-mark-13-and-mark-14-space-weapons
Problems did not go unnoticed by everyone.... Virusdancer posted this in the Bug Reports...but never responded to by Devs.:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1177607/are-weapon-mark-upgrades-functioning-as-intended-mk-xiii-mk-xiv
"Testing though, showed that it was not a +20%/+40%/+60% total increase but rather a +40%/+70%/+110% total increase...."
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Thanks for looping me in. I was so close to having @borticuscryptic clue us in on what we were missing from our derivation of the weapon upgrade "formula" (according to Bort, it's a lookup table). Thare are some oddities for torps, especially Rep ones and TriC's (still not working).
This thread is very relevant, as it addresses an unresolved issue since Mk XIII and XIV gear was introduced.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
I've actually seen this myself and didn't know what to make of it. I have the lobi store Plasmatic Biomatter Torpedo Launcher and the "preview" stats for modifying it say after having leveled it up to Mark XIV, if I increase the color/rarity the damage they do will go sharply DOWN. Naturally I stopped throwing upgrades at it, but didn't feel like I understood the system well enough to ask a good question about it yet.
Thank you for the links. I look forward to reading them
Ok... I'm gonna propose something radical now. We KNOW the system supports non-bucket end value multipliers. If your plan from the outset is to make Grade XIII and Grade XIV violate the rules of all previous grades why not just have them give the EXACT end value multiplier you want instead of monkeying around with a CAT 1 bonus that rarely if ever hits the result you're aiming for. Bang! Bull's-eye! Dead Center Hit. Done. You knew how big of a buff you wanted, why not give it? Directly?
I know...I am trying to find the time to get through that 6 page one that Geko started....a LOT of stuff to read and catch up on.
Plus...this is almost a year and a half old...I don't know if it is STILL like this. Or if "something" got changed or fixed or what.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I'm not entirely sure they knew how to do that then. Stuff beyond Cat. 2 is mostly very old (Sensor Analysis, etc.), or very new, like the buffed [DMG] mod (was 2% Cat. 1 until they revamped the mod). It also might be that the dataset they use on upgraded items would be made far more complicated if they used different math for the last two marks than the first two.
See? This board is awesome. That's a very interesting theory that could describe events nicely
In terms of under the hood behavior I guess I was envisioning mark XIII and XIV keeping the same Cat 1 contribution as Mk XII, then with a hidden or visible [Affix] of the same sort as [Dmg] providing the desired non-bucket +X% to total damage.
Well, from what I can tell....this is the way it is intended to be. Has anyone else read anything different?
I better get a few weapons (at least) upgraded to Mark 14....even if I keep them sitting in the bank for my usual playtime.
I will pull them out for those group "Events", so I don't fall too far behind everyone else. Shoot....more like: WAY FAR BEHIND.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Someone back figured Cryptic's math with their stated intent for final damage shortly after the change, and it had to factor in a small number of standard Tac consoles in addition to Skills, which don't appear to be mounted in that test, which skewed the numbers higher in that test.
On a fully out-fitted ship with 4 or 5 Tac consoles filled and using Attack Patterns it actually under-performed their intended buff to 'final' numbers, even as large as the Cat. 1 buff was. It was guessed that the target numbers where for people running Fed Cruisers (much of which have 3 or less Tac consoles and limited Tac BOff slotting for the most part).