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Skill Tree Point to Point Purchase?

nateham101#2745 nateham101 Member Posts: 420 Arc User
@borticuscryptic The new skill system looks great and the tooltips are very informative, however...

Is there a reason that you have set it up this way? As far as we were told at the beginning, this was supposed to be simplifying the current holodeck skill system. This is fundamentally changing how players are going to set up their skill trees and to set them up correctly the first time or they will be forced to purchase a respec token.

On holodeck now, we are able to layout ALL of our skill points before we press the "Accept" button. This allows us to make little changes, fine tune our skills before commiting to using a token, just in case we put a few too many points in the wrong spot. This new system does NOT allow us to do that at all. We have to mouse over a skill, click it and then purchase it. You can not move on anywhere until that is done. And if you decided you did not want that choice, that you made a mistake (and yes, there are a lot of folks here that will), well no problem! Simply visit the ZEN store and purchase a respec token.

Let's say you finally get close to the bottom of the list, after doing your best not to mess up along the way, you come to find out you do not have enough points to grab an item on the final tier. You could have swore that you calculated correctly, but lets face it..not everyone is a math genius and you accidently placed one too many points in the captain tier that you did not intend on. That's ok! You can purchase another respec token from the ZEN store.

I sincerely hope this changes when it does go live. We should be able to layout our builds before commiting the points we have available. Just like we are able to on Holodeck right now. Am I wrong in thinking this is the way the new setup should be as well?
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Comments

  • dabelgravedabelgrave Member Posts: 979 Arc User
    In its current state, it would be nice if respecs didn't lock in for 24 hours, giving time to correct mistakes without having to completely respec again.​​
  • nateham101#2745 nateham101 Member Posts: 420 Arc User
    dabelgrave wrote: »
    In its current state, it would be nice if respecs didn't lock in for 24 hours, giving time to correct mistakes without having to completely respec again.​​

    I agree, that would be nice too but we are not allowed to have nice things. :-(
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  • genemorphgenemorph Member Posts: 385 Arc User
    Initially I thought it was an oversight or an early version of the system, but this has been brought up a few times now by others and there has been no official response I'm aware of on this issue, which makes me think that it has been deliberately set up this way to increase respec sells. Therefore Cryptic wants people to make mistakes so that they can make more money. There is absolutely no other reason why they would introduce a skill select system like this.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    I have a feeling we're going to be seeing many more of this type of thread as time goes on...

    Especially after it hits Holodeck and folks who normally don't read the forums, will be coming here in droves to express their dismay and rage over the higher cost implementation this change will bring.

    Anybody think "Delta Rising" was a cake-walk now?

    <chuckle>
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
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  • ussinterceptussintercept Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    genemorph wrote: »
    Initially I thought it was an oversight or an early version of the system, but this has been brought up a few times now by others and there has been no official response I'm aware of on this issue, which makes me think that it has been deliberately set up this way to increase respec sells. Therefore Cryptic wants people to make mistakes so that they can make more money. There is absolutely no other reason why they would introduce a skill select system like this.

    I havent seen an official response either. Starting to make me think theyre hoping the current setup will cause people to TRIBBLE up and make them more likely to buy a respec.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    genemorph wrote: »
    Initially I thought it was an oversight or an early version of the system, but this has been brought up a few times now by others and there has been no official response I'm aware of on this issue, which makes me think that it has been deliberately set up this way to increase respec sells. Therefore Cryptic wants people to make mistakes so that they can make more money. There is absolutely no other reason why they would introduce a skill select system like this.

    I havent seen an official response either. Starting to make me think theyre hoping the current setup will cause people to TRIBBLE up and make them more likely to buy a respec.

    ... or quit buying anything, or even just walk away.

    Neither are healthy options for the game.
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
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  • ussinterceptussintercept Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    daveyny wrote: »
    genemorph wrote: »
    Initially I thought it was an oversight or an early version of the system, but this has been brought up a few times now by others and there has been no official response I'm aware of on this issue, which makes me think that it has been deliberately set up this way to increase respec sells. Therefore Cryptic wants people to make mistakes so that they can make more money. There is absolutely no other reason why they would introduce a skill select system like this.

    I havent seen an official response either. Starting to make me think theyre hoping the current setup will cause people to TRIBBLE up and make them more likely to buy a respec.

    ... or quit buying anything, or even just walk away.

    Neither are healthy options for the game.

    Yeah. Likely itll flush out more of the non-whale players that see it as a dishonest and nasty business tactic. But its not like we havent seen this sort of tactic before. And its more likely that this Skill Revamp comes on the heels of some suit at Perfect World telling them they need to improve their respec sales and better monetize the skill tree than because it was something that was done because they hoped to improve QoL of the game.
  • iceeaglexiceeaglex Member Posts: 375 Arc User
    @borticuscryptic Am I wrong in thinking this is the way the new setup should be as well?
    Yes you are wrong.
    You even mentioned several times WHY you are wrong. Buying respecs.

    They blatantly lied to us about it being to 'simplify' the skill tree.
    It is 100% about selling respec tokens. There are no, if's, buts, maybes or white knights for this one.

    It doesn't even matter if they 'give' us a week of free respecs. Because after that week, EVERY time a new player starts, they will be either gimped with a bad skill tree, or forking out for multiple respecs. EVERY time a veteran player wants to try something new, they will be forking out for multiple repecs to try and optimise it. While sweating bullets worried they will misplace a single point.

    They need a MAJOR overhaul on this brand new system already.
    Otherwise, don't worry all you smart alec white knights, there will be plenty of 'stuff' from quitting players for you all.
  • aesicaaesica Member Posts: 734 Arc User
    I don't think it's about "trying to sell us respec tokens" as much as it's about them just taking the easy route and reusing the class/library/etc that powers the specialization system. I'm a programmer, so I totally get that. But in this case, it really doesn't work.

    I hope the devs are aware of this, but the new skill system really shouldn't be treated like the specialization system in terms of selection mechanics because:

    1) This isn't a buy-everything-so-you-can't-make-a-mistake system like specializations. The added complexity from the bonus tracks along the bottom mean that people really need to be able to plan what goes where to get the most out of their attempted build. As it is now, the current setup practically mandates the use of an external talent calculator, which is bad, bad, bad. (Luckily for you guys, I've been working on one casually in my spare time and it's nearly done.)

    2) Buying each point, one at a time, is really, really, really cumbersome. Doing so with each new level may seem fine, but setting all of them, one after another, was pretty agonizing.

    I hope this isn't how it gets delivered on live, but if it does...well, don't worry too much folks. I got your back. :)
    Rubberband Dance has been unlocked!
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  • genemorphgenemorph Member Posts: 385 Arc User
    I went through 21 respec tokens already to try to replicate my Holodeck build and testing out some of the new skills, and I haven't finished yet. This skill select system is just terrible. The issue is amplified, not only because it is translation of some old skills, but because there are new skills with poor descriptions as well. For example Drain Infection, what skills proc it, how much damage does it do, what skills modify its damage, if any. That is just 1 new skill that you have to choose blindly to assess, or wait until someone else tests it for you.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,961 Arc User
    genemorph wrote: »
    Initially I thought it was an oversight or an early version of the system, but this has been brought up a few times now by others and there has been no official response I'm aware of on this issue, which makes me think that it has been deliberately set up this way to increase respec sells. Therefore Cryptic wants people to make mistakes so that they can make more money. There is absolutely no other reason why they would introduce a skill select system like this.
    There has been an official response. The system that was used for the old skill system ("paging" it was called, IIRC) didn't work correctly with the new skill system, so it is not happening, at least not for the immediate future (definitely not before release, and apparently nothing specifically scheduled for it, either).
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,961 Arc User
    genemorph wrote: »
    Initially I thought it was an oversight or an early version of the system, but this has been brought up a few times now by others and there has been no official response I'm aware of on this issue, which makes me think that it has been deliberately set up this way to increase respec sells. Therefore Cryptic wants people to make mistakes so that they can make more money. There is absolutely no other reason why they would introduce a skill select system like this.
    There has been an official response. The system that was used for the old skill system ("paging" it was called, IIRC) didn't work correctly with the new skill system, so it is not happening, at least not for the immediate future (definitely not before release, and apparently nothing specifically scheduled for it, either).
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    genemorph wrote: »
    Initially I thought it was an oversight or an early version of the system, but this has been brought up a few times now by others and there has been no official response I'm aware of on this issue, which makes me think that it has been deliberately set up this way to increase respec sells. Therefore Cryptic wants people to make mistakes so that they can make more money. There is absolutely no other reason why they would introduce a skill select system like this.
    There has been an official response. The system that was used for the old skill system ("paging" it was called, IIRC) didn't work correctly with the new skill system, so it is not happening, at least not for the immediate future (definitely not before release, and apparently nothing specifically scheduled for it, either).

    So there ya go...
    The new Skill Tree is wonderful and we're all gonna LUV it...

    Screen%20Shot%202015-07-10%20at%2011.46.17%20AM.png?itok=fn9F3BNF


    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,961 Arc User
    iceeaglex wrote: »
    @borticuscryptic Am I wrong in thinking this is the way the new setup should be as well?
    Yes you are wrong.
    You even mentioned several times WHY you are wrong. Buying respecs.

    They blatantly lied to us about it being to 'simplify' the skill tree.
    It is 100% about selling respec tokens. There are no, if's, buts, maybes or white knights for this one.

    It doesn't even matter if they 'give' us a week of free respecs. Because after that week, EVERY time a new player starts, they will be either gimped with a bad skill tree, or forking out for multiple respecs. EVERY time a veteran player wants to try something new, they will be forking out for multiple repecs to try and optimize it. While sweating bullets worried they will misplace a single point.
    I have some doubts about this.

    Yes, the new system is more cumbersome to respec, since you are asked every single time to confirm a pick. But that extra confirmation also makes it less likely that you pick wrong. Especially not for Veteran players that might actually map out their skill picks before they even start respeccing.

    I would not even be surprised if they ditched respec cost. (But it doesn't look like they will right now. There could either be a bean counter that thinks its important income source, or the problem is that they don't have a good alternative ready for release. But a temporary promotion will work. Free Respecs at any time are unlikely to happen, so they'd need some kind of limitation.)

    Maybe they should put a respec token as part of Admiralty campaign rewards...


    And of course, it's only a matter of time before the first online skill planner is ready.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • samargathasamargatha Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    2) Buying each point, one at a time, is really, really, really cumbersome. Doing so with each new level may seem fine, but setting all of them, one after another, was pretty agonizing.

    It totally is.

  • pwstolemynamepwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    Hear is an idea. How about if respec tokens placed a buff on the captain that uses them for 24 hours.

    As long as the buff is active, they could reset their skills as much as they like, Maybe also provide or refresh this buff for free every ten levels until 60.

    This way cryptic can still sell tokens, and we still don't have to worry about a single miss-click?
  • birzarkbirzark Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    ^^
    That is a good idea
  • nateham101#2745 nateham101 Member Posts: 420 Arc User
    genemorph wrote: »
    Initially I thought it was an oversight or an early version of the system, but this has been brought up a few times now by others and there has been no official response I'm aware of on this issue, which makes me think that it has been deliberately set up this way to increase respec sells. Therefore Cryptic wants people to make mistakes so that they can make more money. There is absolutely no other reason why they would introduce a skill select system like this.
    There has been an official response. The system that was used for the old skill system ("paging" it was called, IIRC) didn't work correctly with the new skill system, so it is not happening, at least not for the immediate future (definitely not before release, and apparently nothing specifically scheduled for it, either).

    Thanks for the info :(
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  • tygressstygresss Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    Okay sounds like the new skills system is going to be fun to figure out, but what is going to happen with my boff's skills are they going to be reset as they did when they revamped the r&d crafting system? Do I need to make training manuals now and save them? Or are any training manuals I have in the bank going to become useless? Any info would be most welcome :)
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,961 Arc User
    It's a bit of a dead horse now, isn't it? Changes to the way you spend skill points are not going to happen for the release of this feature. Maybe at a later time, if it will be deemed still necessary.

    What I would find really helpful is if the unlock tracks had better markers or counters so you know exactly how many points you need to spend to get to a particular unlock.
    dabelgrave wrote: »
    In its current state, it would be nice if respecs didn't lock in for 24 hours, giving time to correct mistakes without having to completely respec again.​​
    That would be a lot fairer than the system on Holodeck, wouldn't it? Once you lock in your skills there, there are no takebacks without respecs, either.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,961 Arc User
    tygresss wrote: »
    Okay sounds like the new skills system is going to be fun to figure out, but what is going to happen with my boff's skills are they going to be reset as they did when they revamped the r&d crafting system? Do I need to make training manuals now and save them? Or are any training manuals I have in the bank going to become useless? Any info would be most welcome :)
    Your BOFF retain their skills, but some skills you may no longer be able to create certain training manuals, since the way you unlock this ability changes, and it's unlikely you will be able to keep all the unlocks you have now. (On Ground it's guaranteed you can't.) So maybe crafting some manuals is not a bad idea. Though, really- most of the stuff can be had on the Exchange, and it's not really that costly that you'd need to worry.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • tygressstygresss Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    tygresss wrote: »
    Okay sounds like the new skills system is going to be fun to figure out, but what is going to happen with my boff's skills are they going to be reset as they did when they revamped the r&d crafting system? Do I need to make training manuals now and save them? Or are any training manuals I have in the bank going to become useless? Any info would be most welcome :)
    Your BOFF retain their skills, but some skills you may no longer be able to create certain training manuals, since the way you unlock this ability changes, and it's unlikely you will be able to keep all the unlocks you have now. (On Ground it's guaranteed you can't.) So maybe crafting some manuals is not a bad idea. Though, really- most of the stuff can be had on the Exchange, and it's not really that costly that you'd need to worry.

    Thanks for the info :wink:
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,521 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    Yeah, available on the Exchange means the Ferengi will be jacking up the sell price.

    As far as track record, how long, how much pleading, and how much Dilithium was inadvertently spent before we got an 'Are You Sure' Button for the Crafting 'End Now' Button.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
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  • tarran61tarran61 Member Posts: 826 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    I have to say, I've tested the new system twice so far, Im not liking it, I feel Im picking items to get where Im at right now and there isnt enough points in the new system to get me there. Each time Im just happy with it. I am a life time member which means I got a lot of lifer respes. To date, I've only used 2 on my main, 1 on a few of my atls. This new system may just use them up. I support the game more then most with $$ but I have my limits.

    Im still waiting on the Captains Table to give me something but wasted space. Nothing Yet!!

    Also, I am making manuals like no tomorrow, why because when tomorrow gets here I will lose the ability to make most of what I can make now on my tac and engineers. Another benefit of the new systems which Im not liking.

    More testing but show time will be here soon. If you can get to Tribble and see what your going to get come April 12th.

    This is not meant to be taken as a troll or hate message to the Dev's. Its just how I feel right now about the change. I do hope Im very wrong in this feeling I have about this new system. Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if we had a few more points to use. Im not talking 1 or 2 either. (5+ for Space)
    Positive thoughts.
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  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2016
    tarran61 wrote: »
    I have to say, I've tested the new system twice so far, Im not liking it, I feel Im picking items to get where Im at right now and there isnt enough points in the new system to get me there.

    I bet if you post your current Holodeck build, somebody here can replicate it with points left over. I've yet to find a build that couldn't be translated.

    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • speedystrekspeedystrek Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    tarran61 wrote: »
    I have to say, I've tested the new system twice so far, Im not liking it, I feel Im picking items to get where Im at right now and there isnt enough points in the new system to get me there.

    I bet if you post your current Holodeck build, somebody here can replicate it with points left over. I've yet to find a build that couldn't be translated.

    And that's the problem. I want to be able to do it and not someone els, or have to testing on Tribble for weeks like other do right now, or have to use some players SkillPlaner to get it right before.
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  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    Then tell me what you don't understand about the new system. Maybe it's something we can improve on.

    I know there's a tendency to resist change, which can sometimes cause people to have difficulties with adaptation and learning. If that's all it is, I won't be able to help. But if there's something about the new system that's actively causing you to not understand how to spend your Skill Points, then a thorough explanation of what that issue is may allow us to adjust it.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • illcadiaillcadia Member Posts: 1,412 Bug Hunter

    And that's the problem. I want to be able to do it and not someone els, or have to testing on Tribble for weeks like other do right now, or have to use some players SkillPlaner to get it right before.

    So basically you want to do it, except in order to do it, you don't actually want to have to take any effort? You don't want to use a skill planner that is literally just an interactive version of the skill tree on a website? You don't want to go on tribble and test it out. Where are you getting your information on, if you don't feel you can bother to actually try it?

    Like seriously, this skill planner is the simplest possible thing to use, and answers literally all your questions about what skills are, what benefit you get from them- everything. Even with that, if you're still deciding not to look at it, and not to- well okay, to be entirely honest at that point you just aren't trying at all. Expecting the system to change so you don't have to make even the smallest effort is, I think, not something that the developers should try to accommodate.

    Because there's been a lot of posts like yours popping up, and the general theme seems to be people have read other posts like this, and gone 'that random person on the internet said they couldn't replicate their skill setup. That means I can't replicate my skill setup! I better go post about it on the forums!'

    There are a lot of new skills, some of which were split from old skills, but a lot that weren't. There's a new balance if you want to also take new skills- some points extra from the old system, sure, but if you want your old build exactly you're going to have to not invest so heavily in the new skills.

    If anything, I think that one improvement would relate specifically to this: Temporarily tag the new skills in the UI as being new. A little green '~ New!' next to their name would help players determine better what to invest in when they're just trying to replicate an existing build
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    Then tell me what you don't understand about the new system. Maybe it's something we can improve on.

    I know there's a tendency to resist change, which can sometimes cause people to have difficulties with adaptation and learning. If that's all it is, I won't be able to help. But if there's something about the new system that's actively causing you to not understand how to spend your Skill Points, then a thorough explanation of what that issue is may allow us to adjust it.

    Pure speculation based on my personal experience here, but I think it has to do with the fact that people generally want to excel in everything. With old system, you could, in most cases, ignore several of the skills altogether and still be close to perfect in multiple aspects. Now, with the influx of new very nice looking skills, people want to grab those while still retaining everything they had before. With new skill system, you can do it if you know you will only have one type of builds (let's say, only heavy BFAW boats geared for maximising DPS), however, when a person wants to spread wings and want to use, for example, torp boats or drain builds or tanks as well, one will have much harder time having nice skilltree that allows all of that with the new system, compared to the skilltree we currently have.

    I know you can always buy a respec or roll another toon, but respecs are outrageously expensive and gearing another toon is not cheap either, not to mention some people want to focus only on a single toon. I understand this is only a mindset people have and they could adapt easily if they wanted to, but since the company wants to make as much profit as possible, they could take that kind of mindsets at least partly into account.
  • entnx01entnx01 Member Posts: 539 Arc User
    tarran61 wrote: »
    I have to say, I've tested the new system twice so far, Im not liking it, I feel Im picking items to get where Im at right now and there isnt enough points in the new system to get me there.

    I bet if you post your current Holodeck build, somebody here can replicate it with points left over. I've yet to find a build that couldn't be translated.

    Not being willing to use the tools that are out there in order to better ensure a quality build, to me, is like trying to build a house without power tools and trying to haul building materials without a vehicle. It'll take longer without those tools and the vehicle and puts more strain on you than there needs to be, but it's possible. But don't say it's unfair your neighbor is building their house faster and better because they're willing to use those tools and vehicles when you both have access to them.

    I understand not wanting someone to translate your build for you. Learning is best done by doing! And I can somewhat understand not testing on Tribble*, depending on your ISP and comfort with even getting started on Tribble.

    But not willing to use a Skill Planner when you think you'll be running into issues? I'm sorry. I just don't understand that. I've been using STO Academy's Skill Planner to adjust my Tribble builds just to see if they'll translate. Without that, I'd be in the same boat as others with concerns over the new system. But I realized I needed that tool to translate my build, and so far it's a near exact copy with points left over, as Bort has said of most builds they've translated.

    There's no getting around it. You'll have to put some work into translating your skills over, finding out how many points spent on Holodeck translates into however many points you'll need to spend in the new system, and seeing what you've got. If you're unwilling to use Tribble or a Skill Planner(s) when you know they exist, you are almost literally asking to be left behind when the new system goes live.

    If you or anyone else decides to use a set of Skill Planners and may not be willing/able to make the leap to Tribble to see the new system, here are the current Skill Planners you can use to help in translating:

    STO Academy, current system: http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/ (click on "Skills" on that page, then click on each individual skill for its Holodeck description)
    STF Vanguard's rough version, new system (may not have been updated for last week's changes, but it's very close if not): http://www.stf-vanguard.com/STO-Skill-Planner/



    *NOTE: I do understand Tribble isn't for everyone. Either there are data limits on players' internet connections or they don't know how to use Tribble to their maximum advantage. The former is an issue; the latter is lack of research into the Tribble test server.
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